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Odie McCracken
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
91
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Posted - 2015.10.23 22:25:32 -
[121] - Quote
Dror wrote: I've listed multiple reasons its a deterrent.
This is through page 6, and there's still no evidence that SP is any more helpful for an interesting game than without it.
Actually you've only stated why YOU think it is a deterrent. And not one person has yet to agree with you.
Frankly I don't agree with anything you've posted so really the burden of proof is on you to convince us why SP is a deterrent. A link back to something you've already posted won't help you any.
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
39
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Posted - 2015.10.23 22:33:48 -
[122] - Quote
Odie McCracken wrote:Dror wrote: I've listed multiple reasons its a deterrent.
This is through page 6, and there's still no evidence that SP is any more helpful for an interesting game than without it. Actually you've only stated why YOU think it is a deterrent. And not one person has yet to agree with you. Frankly I don't agree with anything you've posted so really the burden of proof is on you to convince us why SP is a deterrent. A link back to something you've already posted won't help you any. It's an extrinsic motivator ..which even CCP lists as detrimental for motivation and creativity.
It reduces content, probably the biggest reason for MMO unsubs It undermines intrinsic motivation This is on you. If you can't figure out how helpful intrinsic motivation is, you have no place to reply. Protip: it's learning and mastering the game, Maslow's self-actualization, the exploration of being free to play in a way that seems interesting, competitiveness, and depth of social factors.
Corps are closing because they can't become proficient at T3s, because they have no SP? That's an SP problem. It reduces content without providing anything, really, in return. It's asking characters to pick a niche and forego all others for it. Combat is supposed to keep a sub interested? Why?
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Odie McCracken
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
91
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Posted - 2015.10.23 22:36:57 -
[123] - Quote
Sorry, I disagree. |
Leeluvv
Polarized
43
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Posted - 2015.10.23 22:41:17 -
[124] - Quote
Dror wrote:What's the design philosophy?
For fresh subs? There's nothing to do in station.
You suck at Eve. My brother made 7 billion in 6 weeks as new character he moved to Jita and never even undocked once. |
Thierry Orlenard
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
29
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Posted - 2015.10.23 22:41:31 -
[125] - Quote
Dror wrote:Cidanel Afuran wrote:Dror wrote:Seems pretty babysitter, tbh. 1/10, you can troll harder than that. And you were on such a roll Seriously, though.. Sabotaging motivation is a poor method of showing subs that they're valuable.
You have yet to show that the SP system demotivates players en masse.
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
39
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Posted - 2015.10.23 22:41:43 -
[126] - Quote
Odie McCracken wrote:Sorry, I disagree. The cool part about game design is that it gets to be objective whether or not you have anything to say about it.
If you can't post a reason why you can't actually refute it, why reply?
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Odie McCracken
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
91
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Posted - 2015.10.23 22:48:41 -
[127] - Quote
Dror wrote:Odie McCracken wrote:Sorry, I disagree. The cool part about game design is that it gets to be objective whether or not you have anything to say about it. If you can't actually refute it, why reply? @Thierry Orlenard, Why? You're making no claim. I'm just agreeing with CCP that they should switch over to an intrinsic reward system.
There's nothing to refute. Number of people convinced by your argument: 0. Please try again. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
39
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Posted - 2015.10.23 22:50:27 -
[128] - Quote
Odie McCracken wrote:Dror wrote:Odie McCracken wrote:Sorry, I disagree. The cool part about game design is that it gets to be objective whether or not you have anything to say about it. If you can't actually refute it, why reply? @Thierry Orlenard, Why? You're making no claim. I'm just agreeing with CCP that they should switch over to an intrinsic reward system. There's nothing to refute. Number of people convinced by your argument: 0. Please try again. "I have to be convinced of something to refute it."
Not how that functions.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1051
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Posted - 2015.10.23 22:51:19 -
[129] - Quote
Dror wrote:Odie McCracken wrote:Sorry, I disagree. The cool part about game design is that it gets to be objective whether or not you have anything to say about it. If you can't post a reason why you can't actually refute it, why reply?
You're the one making the positive affirmation. It's your job to present a supporting argument. Instead, you've started with an assertion, and tried to place the onus on everyone else to disprove it.
It's the classic, "There's a dragon in my garage. Now prove there isn't," argument. You quite comically think that this is actually logical and objective, when it most closely resembles the type of thinking exhibited by religious extremists and adherents of alternative medicine.
You're mostly being mocked because everyone realized, right off the bat, that you're a bit of a Dunning-Kruger posterchild.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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Odie McCracken
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
91
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Posted - 2015.10.23 22:52:16 -
[130] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:Dror wrote:Odie McCracken wrote:Sorry, I disagree. The cool part about game design is that it gets to be objective whether or not you have anything to say about it. If you can't post a reason why you can't actually refute it, why reply? You're the one making the positive affirmation. It's your job to present a supporting argument. Instead, you've started with an assertion, and tried to place the onus on everyone else to disprove it. It's the classic, "There's a dragon in my garage. Now prove there isn't," argument. You quite comically think that this is actually logical and objective, when it most closely resembles the type of thinking exhibited by religious extremists and adherents of alternative medicine. You're mostly being mocked because everyone realized, right off the bat, that you're a bit of a Dunning-Kruger posterchild.
This is a much better reply than I can come up with. what he said.
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Alt Pilot1
Hysera Innovations
28
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Posted - 2015.10.23 22:52:17 -
[131] - Quote
I think to get more subscriber and log-ins they need to do the following:
1. Make the game more accessible to beginners, but without dumbing down the game. I think making Skill Points freely trade-able on the open market is a good direction.
2. Make PvP combat in Eve Online more fun. I know there are many people who would argue that combat in Eve Online is perfect the way it is. But it's just my personal opinion that the combat in Eve Online is not very fun.
What if they make the ship controls more similar to World of Warships / Elite Dangerous / Rebel Galaxy (where you control your ship directly) - but at the same time keep all the existing mechanics such as: Optimal Range, Falloff Range, Tracking Disruptors, Transversal Velocity, ECM, Warp Disruptor, Web, etc.
This would make combat more engaging, without dumbing down the game mechanics. I'm not a programmer so I don't know how hard this would be to pull off.
3. Find some way to make PvP combat more instantly gratifying.
All this is probably easier said than done. But what keeps me from logging into Eve Online and doing PvP is, because I have limited playing time. I don't want to risk the chance of logging in for 1 hour, not getting any action, and then logging out again. Then I've just wasted 1 hour of my game time. So in that regard, some people might just choose to log into a game where they can get some instant gratification. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
39
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Posted - 2015.10.23 22:57:58 -
[132] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:Dror wrote:Odie McCracken wrote:Sorry, I disagree. The cool part about game design is that it gets to be objective whether or not you have anything to say about it. If you can't post a reason why you can't actually refute it, why reply? You're the one making the positive affirmation. It's your job to present a supporting argument. Instead, you've started with an assertion, and tried to place the onus on everyone else to disprove it. It's the classic, "There's a dragon in my garage. Now prove there isn't," argument. You quite comically think that this is actually logical and objective, when it most closely resembles the type of thinking exhibited by religious extremists and adherents of alternative medicine. You're mostly being mocked because everyone realized, right off the bat, that you're a bit of a Dunning-Kruger posterchild. It's more like saying I have [enter big word], and the only replies have yet to read anything about it.
Alt Pilot1 wrote:I think to get more subscriber and log-ins they need to do the following:
1. Make the game more accessible to beginners, but without dumbing down the game. I think making Skill Points freely trade-able on the open market is a good direction.
2. Make PvP combat in Eve Online more fun. I know there are many people who would argue that combat in Eve Online is perfect the way it is. But it's just my personal opinion that the combat in Eve Online is not very fun.
What if they make the ship controls more similar to World of Warships / Elite Dangerous / Rebel Galaxy (where you control your ship directly) - but at the same time keep all the existing mechanics such as: Optimal Range, Falloff Range, Tracking Disruptors, Transversal Velocity, ECM, Warp Disruptor, Web, etc.
This would make combat more engaging, without dumbing down the game mechanics. I'm not a programmer so I don't know how hard this would be to pull off.
3. Find some way to make PvP combat more instantly gratifying.
All this is probably easier said than done. But what keeps me from logging into Eve Online and doing PvP is, because I have limited playing time. I don't want to risk the chance of logging in for 1 hour, not getting any action, and then logging out again. Then I've just wasted 1 hour of my game time. So in that regard, some people might just choose to log into a game where they can get some instant gratification. I find it odd, the idea to come up that no-SP "dumbs down the game"; yet, SP actively preventing learning, play, and depth.
PS, a lot of playstyles are interesting. There are very few games which promote discussing real piloting jargon.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Otso Bakarti
Filial Pariahs
398
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Posted - 2015.10.23 23:09:38 -
[133] - Quote
Why you ignore my previous post??? (Did I strike a NERVE?)
Fear of death follows from fear of life. A man who lives fully is prepared to die at any time. -Mark Twain -
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Cidanel Afuran
Static-Noise Upholders
335
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Posted - 2015.10.23 23:16:14 -
[134] - Quote
Dror wrote:Seriously, though.. Sabotaging motivation is a poor method of showing subs that they're valuable.
Agreed 100%. Which is why your idea is terrible.
4th time I've posted this in the thread. Want to respond this time?
Actions have consequences. We like that. I can't blindly re-roll a new character and have the same skills. My reputation is tied to my name, and I have to live with my actions. We like that also. If you remove time-based SPs, reputation is suddenly meaningless, as anyone can re-roll a new character at any time. The entire social-political landscape of EVE disappears overnight. |
Bobb Bobbington
The Cult of the Rare Pepes
88
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Posted - 2015.10.23 23:19:04 -
[135] - Quote
Obligatory "this is why we can't have good threads" |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
39
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Posted - 2015.10.23 23:21:33 -
[136] - Quote
Otso Bakarti wrote:Why you ignore my previous post??? (Did I strike a NERVE?) Does it really seem like I'm saying SP is overly challenging? It's actually just limited and uninteresting. Progression being that is really negative for the game.
@Cidanel, I've already discussed the reputation issue. It seems like you're actually discussing like.. character renown, though, and the reply is simple. Alts Online design defers the greatness of any character to, likely, multiple. As stated previously, true investment in a character increases game loyalty.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Shoot u Idiots
State War Academy Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2015.10.23 23:21:53 -
[137] - Quote
Not sure where to start, but this my experience.
Why remove the SP? imo that is what makes up your toon and the dicisons you make and that is what I find appearling now.
When I started the game i didn't know there was anyting called SP I just liked the trailers I saw on steam and dicided to give it a try, but the longer I have played the more I like SP and SP is what keeps my loyalty towards my toon not the chance of "winning battles".
You claim there is nothing to do in stations and nothing to do in space specially for new players. What? if there is nothing to do why have I stayed this long and logging in nearly daily?
EVE is what you dicide it to be.
I don't understand half the things you claim, so i'm not sure you know what tools you have in game or how to use them.
It looks like you want to fly cap ships from day 1, all it will take is 1,5 billion to get a decent fit. I'm not really sure why you want cap ships, for a chance of winning and/or take sov?
What will your carrier do to a swarm of interceptors and frigs? Or your new player corp that wants to take sov in 10 carriers what will they do when the power blocks smack down the hammer on your corp's 10 carriers?
Back to my story - when I started the game I flew with a coalition based out of high sec and low sec and my toon wasn't more than 2-3 months old. I loged in one night chats was lightning up, the call was given to form up fleet help defend assets in null sec. What did I do? I asked what can I do to help? Told them I was (and still am) a proude gallente girl and could fly cruisers but not well. I was handed a fit for Celestis, so I went to shop for the fit and met up with the rest of fleet when ready.
It was some of most fun I have had, I didn't expect to get home alive and I didn't, but the shiver from entering null sec for first time and in a fleet with corp and coalition members flying our colours was soooo awesome :) See that is what brings loyalty! not the chance of "winning battles" because of equal palying field. But apprently I should have stayed in station, cause there is nothing to do in space.
My point is that even if you are new and low on SP you can still help out and you can still win fights if that is what you in this game for, your not the only new player, there are others at your skill level also.
You call for science and logic in removal of SP and that studies show that "winning battles" creats loyalty towards your toon.
Please tell me who will win a fight between player A and player B - both flying fed navy comets fitted the same way?
People join EVE for different reasons and to do different things, some like the pvp, some to build empries in SOV, some for the markets, some join to build an industry empire.
By your logic with no SP more new subs will come - then why haven't we seen 1,000,000 new subs of people who joins to build industry empires, cause CCP acutally leveled the playing field by removing a skill that made the difference between new players and older players?
What is the next thing you want to remove in the game? researched BPO? it can't be fair I can't build cap ships when older players can't, and it is not fair they can build cheaper than me, cause I only have a ME0/TE0 BPO while they have ME10/TE20 BPOs
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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
25481
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Posted - 2015.10.23 23:27:06 -
[138] - Quote
Cidanel Afuran wrote:SPs deter a certain kind of person. That's a good thing. Sadly it doesn't deter enough of them, and we end up with threads like this.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
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Glathull
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
1194
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Posted - 2015.10.23 23:36:55 -
[139] - Quote
Good lord, this thread is a train wreck. Starring a little engine that just couldn't.
I honestly feel like I just read fifty shades of dumb. --CCP Falcon
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Nixon Bum
Dont Fly On An Empty Stomach
2
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Posted - 2015.10.24 00:14:14 -
[140] - Quote
Alt Pilot1 wrote:
2. Make PvP combat in Eve Online more fun. I know there are many people who would argue that combat in Eve Online is perfect the way it is. But it's just my personal opinion that the combat in Eve Online is not very fun.
What if they make the ship controls more similar to World of Warships / Elite Dangerous / Rebel Galaxy (where you have direct control over your ship) - but at the same time keep all the existing mechanics such as: Optimal Range, Falloff Range, Tracking Disruptors, Transversal Velocity, ECM, Warp Disruptor, Web, etc.
This would make combat more engaging, without dumbing down the game mechanics. I'm not a programmer so I don't know how hard this would be to pull off.
3. Find some way to make PvP combat more instantly gratifying.
All this is probably easier said than done. But what keeps me from logging in and doing PvP, is because I have limited playing time. I don't want to risk the chance of logging in for 1 hour, spend the entire hour jumping from system to system or camping at a gate, and then log out again without getting any action.
It will feel like I've just wasted 1 hour of my limited game time, without doing anything. So in that regard, some people might just choose to login to another game where they can get some instant gratification.
Umm that's what EvE Valkyrie is for! In my eyes eve is more like RTS, where you "command your units"..... well in this case it's your ship's crew. |
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Paul Pohl
blue media poetry
12
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Posted - 2015.10.24 01:00:41 -
[141] - Quote
Dror wrote:
Isn't the OP an objective criticism?
no
it's a rambling attempt to use jargon and be overly clever
if you are really interested in game design go and get a copy of manic miner
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Daerrol
Work In Progress.
241
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Posted - 2015.10.24 01:37:51 -
[142] - Quote
Skillpoint system gives player somethign to look forwards to "I get to fly a battleship!!! WOW!" Skillpoint keeps lpayers from rushing to a Battlecruiser with their first 30m and getting exploded when their mixed gun, mixed tank junmped into an L4 and got popped. Prevents tears.
Is skillssystem good? IDK. I don't really mind. I played many years fly many ships. My friends joined way later, they fly on ops with me all the time. No one seems to care I have 60m SP and they are around 30m SP. Even when I was 30M and they were 5M we still played. |
Johan Civire
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
984
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Posted - 2015.10.24 03:24:30 -
[143] - Quote
And a other Arcade gamer (wow tactics hold hands gamer).
Conclusion this is not your cup of tea game if you find that hard to learn some F*CKING patience then please by the god of love move on. |
Yusef Brion
Big Yellow Pidgeon Inc.
28
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Posted - 2015.10.24 03:42:01 -
[144] - Quote
Dror wrote:Unbiased Criticisms for the Game
Dror wrote:What's the design philosophy?
For fresh subs? There's nothing to do in station. There's nothing to do in space.
Stupid company has the forums blocked at work and I missed the whole thread party...
Saw this and just wanted to say
That is the fastest I've ever seen an OP kill his own thread. *slow clap*
The more I read the forums over the years, the more I swear. To god. That the typos are intentional mistakes.
Part o f the encryption.
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Tanthos
Tanthos Corp
89
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Posted - 2015.10.24 04:25:47 -
[145] - Quote
Skillpoints is one of the best things about Eve. It's one of the main reasons I choose it over WoW and others. It provides passive advancement even when not playing, and justifies a subscription even when you don't have time to play full time. |
Cidanel Afuran
Static-Noise Upholders
339
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Posted - 2015.10.24 04:41:37 -
[146] - Quote
Dror wrote:@Cidanel, I've already discussed the reputation issue. It seems like you're actually discussing like.. character renown, though, and the reply is simple. Alts Online design defers the greatness of any character to, likely, multiple. As stated previously, true investment in a character increases game loyalty.
No, no you didn't. In any of the dozen posts you've made on this topic you've avoided addressing this question like a CODE enforcer encountering a solo untanked freighter. So for a 5th time (in this thread)
Actions have consequences. We like that. I can't blindly re-roll a new character and have the same skills. My reputation is tied to my name, and I have to live with my actions. We like that also. If you remove time-based SPs, reputation is suddenly meaningless, as anyone can re-roll a new character at any time. The entire social-political landscape of EVE disappears overnight.
Care to address this issue, sweet nugget? |
Alt Pilot1
Hysera Innovations
28
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Posted - 2015.10.24 04:41:49 -
[147] - Quote
Johan Civire wrote:And a other Arcade gamer (wow tactics hold hands gamer).
Conclusion this is not your cup of tea game if you find that hard to learn some F*CKING patience then please by the god of love move on.
Actually I have played some WoW in the past, at one point my character had all purple PvP gear. Just wanted to say that WoW does take some skill - however it's more "twitch based" skill that test your reflexes - kind of like Counter-Strike.
Because your character has like 20 different spells, and so does your enemy. When you PvP, you have to instantly recognize what spell your enemy is using, and also which spell you will use to counter it. (you also have to push the right hotkey at the right moment, which is kind of hard when you have 20 different hotkeys with spells, but you only have a split second to react and push the right one).
So PvP in WoW does take some skills - but it's mainly reflex / twitch / memory based skills. |
Kaivar Lancer
Placid Peace Corps
692
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Posted - 2015.10.24 06:35:44 -
[148] - Quote
I don't quite understand the OP? Something about SWG and Eve. |
Deck Cadelanne
CAStabouts
247
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Posted - 2015.10.24 07:41:22 -
[149] - Quote
Dror wrote: It's a fair playing field that doesn't require microtransactions to progress. That seems like a thorough enough answer for the question.
Maybe a decent counter-question would be why games like MMOs are played over games like chess or Tetris -- depth, yeah? So why artificially limit that depth with a pay wall -- how is that helpful for sub retention or the level of strategy in the game? Starter corps can't infiltrate sov with frigates. So, a decent hypothesis is that if something limits depth and progression, it can't also benefit it, yeah? If a mechanic worsens a game, it can't really embetter it?
False statement. In fact, the whole premise of your "argument" is false, which is now clear from your subsequent comments.
There is no "pay wall." EVE does not require microtransactions to progress. It requires time and effort. You pay a sub (either with your own cash or a huge investment of your own time to get PLEX somebody else pays for). There is no instant gratification in this game.
EVE is not a "fair playing field." It's a sandbox. There's a fundamental difference there, if you are clever enough to perceive it.
EVE has far more depth than any other online game I am aware of. It's a game of strategy and tactics not twitch reflex and connection speed. That's a big part of the appeal.
EVE does not appeal to many gamers for these reasons. Yet you argue that it should be made to be more like other games, fundamentally changing the game to appeal to the short-attention-span, self-entitled crowd that currently are driven away by the complexity and investment of time and effort required.
It isn't perfect, various changes are afoot that will "fine tune" certain aspects of the game and reduce (not remove) the barriers to new player retention without fundamentally changing the nature of the game.
You are, to be blunt, pissing up a rope here.
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn professional."
- Hunter S. Thompson
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Deck Cadelanne
CAStabouts
247
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Posted - 2015.10.24 07:43:34 -
[150] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote: You're mostly being mocked because everyone realized, right off the bat, that you're a bit of a Dunning-Kruger posterchild.
Thus endeth the lesson
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn professional."
- Hunter S. Thompson
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