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Renegade Melkem
Darkness Consumed I N F A M O U S
0
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Posted - 2015.11.03 05:01:34 -
[1] - Quote
So after reading changes to Capital meta coming up, I am surprised I don't see anything regarding capital Escalations in here probably cause we all got too rich over it No fucks given most likely, To get started we have obvious changes coming were a (L) Citadel will cost roughly 7 billion ISK to place in C5/6.
With the upcoming EHP changes to super capitals primarily we have gotten the message that Dreadnought DPS reductions will be coming and sub-capital dps application looked at as-well, aka no more 15k DPS Moros's ripping sleeper battleships?
Now people run cap sites differently but most people have come to just warp to 60k Gåæ Anom and 2/3 cycle 600m richer give or take the WH effect you have. Other then the fact of LZHX/HK or some other relevant WH group rolling into you and destroying your happy unicorn town Escals are easy.
All this said DPS reductions Overall tracking issues and increased occupation costs for your WH caps will it be viable or even possible to do them or are we going to go back to old-school method with lokis and new triage caps?, or do you think Escals are ruined difficulty may be increased which would give incursions or other pve methods the edge in ISK/HR because we don't get a endless site count in WH's like incursion/null shitlers?Or CCP just hates the small pop of wh dwellers?
Only can speculate until stats are released on new mods however its worth the talk IMHO...
"Total Hit Points All titans, supers, carriers and dreadnoughts will have their HP re-balanced. The Hel and Nidhoggur will no longer be the black sheep of the family, and will have equivalent HP statistics. Titans and super carriers will be receiving a cut to their total EHP.
These will be re-balanced to the new Capital EHP levels. They will also have their effectiveness on sub-capitals greatly reduced"
Evenews Source: http://evenews24.com/2015/10/25/reworking-capital-ships-and-thus-it-begins/#sthash.rZ6OwRJq.dpuf |
Jezza McWaffle
Isogen 5
255
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Posted - 2015.11.03 11:44:49 -
[2] - Quote
Given CCP devs have already stated that wormhole PvE escalations in particular are changing and there will be some time a Devblog about it then hopefully yes we will see an end to that god awful method of PvE.
EVE's worst badass
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Bloemkoolsaus
Viperfleet Inc. Official Winners Of Takeshi's Castle
204
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Posted - 2015.11.03 12:14:10 -
[3] - Quote
Jezza McWaffle wrote:Given CCP devs have already stated that wormhole PvE escalations in particular are changing and there will be some time a Devblog about it then hopefully yes we will see an end to that god awful method of PvE.
I predict shield revs to become a thing. |
unimatrix0030
Viperfleet Inc. Official Winners Of Takeshi's Castle
215
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Posted - 2015.11.03 12:21:35 -
[4] - Quote
http://www.lowseclifestyle.com/2015/10/eve-vegas-2015-capital-round-table.html From sugar kyle's blog it seems the question has already been put up in eve vegas. The answer was that they had plans in the works... .
Personaly i don't see any use for a dread with only 2k damage on subcaps. Yes it tanks a lot, but other then using to bait there is absolutly no use for dreads with only 2k damage to subcaps. It is useless in pve and pvp. And yet they were fun to catch and destroy... .
You are not the first to notice it: http://foo-eve.blogspot.be/2015/10/capital-escalations-are-dead-long-live.html
No local in null sec would fix everything!
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Nox52
Sudden Buggery
91
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Posted - 2015.11.03 12:45:37 -
[5] - Quote
The only safe bet is that things will change and everyone will have to adapt. Figuring out how to is useless without any details. The only thing they have released is hints of a 2k dos sub cap weapon for dreads, which is a little underwhelming.... |
O'nira
Litla Sundlaugin
74
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Posted - 2015.11.03 23:13:51 -
[6] - Quote
unless they make the damage pitiful or the tracking absurdly low it won't matter and if they do either of those then dreads will become a bit of a joke, like not being able to hit moving capitals and ****. you might be required to get a moros for it after the change maybe.
or they might **** with the sig radius/weapon thing and make it so you just can't hit subaps and then it will be ****** |
Jezza McWaffle
Isogen 5
255
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Posted - 2015.11.03 23:28:53 -
[7] - Quote
Bloemkoolsaus wrote:Jezza McWaffle wrote:Given CCP devs have already stated that wormhole PvE escalations in particular are changing and there will be some time a Devblog about it then hopefully yes we will see an end to that god awful method of PvE. I predict shield revs to become a thing.
Your prediction is late
EVE's worst badass
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Jack Miton
Anomalous Existence Low-Class
4733
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Posted - 2015.11.04 00:34:56 -
[8] - Quote
unimatrix0030 wrote:Personaly i don't see any use for a dread with only 2k damage on subcaps. Yes it tanks a lot, but other then using to bait there is absolutly no use for dreads with only 2k damage to subcaps sure, except things like shooting structures and other caps. you know, the things theyre MEANT to be used for?
There is no Bob.
Stuck In Here With Me: http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/
Down the Pipe: http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
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Renegade Melkem
Darkness Consumed I N F A M O U S
0
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Posted - 2015.11.04 06:31:33 -
[9] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:unimatrix0030 wrote:Personaly i don't see any use for a dread with only 2k damage on subcaps. Yes it tanks a lot, but other then using to bait there is absolutly no use for dreads with only 2k damage to subcaps sure, except things like shooting structures and other caps. you know, the things theyre MEANT to be used for?
Not sure if that's true anymore as far as time consumption piloting dreadnoughts WH escalations is the king of the hours piloted, other uses have become obsolete entosis kind of put dreads usefulness on hold. What I don't understand is how CCP finds a any usefulness with a 2k DPS capital turret on dreads and most likely the only reason for not cranking that **** to 10k is because they don't have turrets that differentiate between titans and dreads |
unimatrix0030
Viperfleet Inc. Official Winners Of Takeshi's Castle
215
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Posted - 2015.11.04 07:47:52 -
[10] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote: sure, except things like shooting structures and other caps. you know, the things theyre MEANT to be used for?
Caps and structure shooting doesn 't change so no complaints about that I just don't see a use for the dread subcaps guns if they only give 2k dps on subcaps. The 2k dps is not usefull for cap escalations or other pve, and i don't see the use in pvp other then baiting. And even if they change cap escalations ,why would you use a dread in pve if you can make do with 2 battleships? The fact that they will be less(or not) used in pve and pvp means that the occasions to kill them will decrease significaly. Even in pvp it would be more wise to use cheaper faster battleships to kill subcaps, in case things go wrong .
Now what would make it more interesting is the subcaps guns doing 2k dps on 5 targets at once.
No local in null sec would fix everything!
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Peonza Chan
Gloryhole Initiative Que os den forsaken
20
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Posted - 2015.11.04 08:39:37 -
[11] - Quote
unimatrix0030 wrote:And even if they change cap escalations ,why would you use a dread in pve if you can make do with 2 battleships? because you only need 1 pilot instead of 2
Capitals are getting new fitting options, so a Battleship may be not able to kite a Dread that easily. I think they want the gap between BSs and Dreads be more like the existing gap between BCs and BSs (where fits matter, BC can kill a BS, and a BS can hit a BC), also if I not wrong Dreads could refit to adapt different situations...
edit |
Rek Seven
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
2097
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Posted - 2015.11.04 09:25:48 -
[12] - Quote
After the proposed changes, it sounds like dreads will only have a place in wormhole PVE if CCP add sleeper capital ships to sites.
Since a lot of people in wormhole space trained dreads to use in PVE, if dreads suddenly become useless, ccp should reimburse all dread related sp IMO.
The wishlist is pretty much complete...
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unimatrix0030
Viperfleet Inc. Official Winners Of Takeshi's Castle
215
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Posted - 2015.11.04 09:27:54 -
[13] - Quote
Peonza Chan wrote: because you only need 1 pilot instead of 2
You still have no given any valid reason. Why would you risk a more then 2.5 bil slow moving dread, if you can bling out a battleship cheaper and get almost the same effect? You can even fit get away modules like micro jump drives on battleships. A dread is slow, is stuck in siege, it is basicly a expensive target.
No local in null sec would fix everything!
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Renegade Melkem
Darkness Consumed I N F A M O U S
0
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Posted - 2015.11.04 10:21:17 -
[14] - Quote
Unimatrix i don't think you understand the risk for reward in escalations
Sleepless Guardian Warp Scrambling (100%, 40,000 m) Energy Vampire (100%, 36.0 GJ/s, 40,000 m) Webbing (100%, 40,000 m) Immune to offensive modifiers 694 Omni DPS focused more to EXP/KIN Slightly
An escalation spawns 6/8/8/8
so point is The capitals spawn them and gives roughly 600m-900mish depending if you do salvage you can probably crank out 2 dreads worth in a efficient hour
considering a battleship in these sites cant move and are perma pointed and cant MJD. Dps also extremely overwhelming without Logi and well what battleship's has +288GJ/s and can also tank 5500 DPS+ even dreadnoughts should just die but in escals you play the position of I will kill you before you kill me.
not to mention they tank like a lot usually like takes 3 20-30k Volleys from a Moros and in any marauder or cap chain setup which would completely lack DPS unless huge numbers... but now you've lost the point, it is to complete these sites as quick as possible risking 5b dreadnoughts and raking in huge for your risk if we are not talking about doing escals with dreads then there is nothing to talk about because incursions isk/hr ratio would easily overshadow c5/c6 sites simply put because WH sites once ran down through there regular spawns despawn... unlike WH's/Missions/Null sites ETC...
Shield: No shields Armor: 55,000 HP 75 % 75 % 75 % 80 % 25 % Armor Rep - 880 HP 15 sec 0% 58.67 HP/s Structure: 27,500 HP 0 % 0 % 0 % 0 % 0 % |
Peonza Chan
Gloryhole Initiative Que os den forsaken
20
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Posted - 2015.11.04 12:11:15 -
[15] - Quote
unimatrix0030 wrote:Peonza Chan wrote: because you only need 1 pilot instead of 2
You still have not given any valid reason. Why would you risk a more then 2.5 bil slow moving dread, if you can bling out a battleship cheaper and get almost the same effect? You can even fit get away modules like micro jump drives on battleships. A dread is slow, is stuck in siege, it is basicly a expensive target.
I think it's a valid reason. You will do more damage than a BS, not an incredible huge amount, but more. If you don't want to risk a dread because that 'more' is not enough for you just don't field it. It's the same when comparing other tiers, the only difference is the isk gap, which seems justified because +1k dps.
The only concern is about mobility, we have clues about DPS (let's say 1k vs 2k), but what about new capital mwd? if it enable enough mobility to dreads they could still be viable. Of course I'm assuming 2k dps won't require siege.
disclaimer I'm not saying dreads will be in the same place in meta as before, but they won't render useless neither in pvp or pve
sorry for grammar mistakes if any |
unimatrix0030
Viperfleet Inc. Official Winners Of Takeshi's Castle
216
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Posted - 2015.11.04 14:13:43 -
[16] - Quote
Anti structure and and cap guns will still rock against their intended target.
Renegade Melkem wrote: considering a battleship in these sites cant move and are perma pointed and cant MJD. Dps also extremely overwhelming without Logi and well what battleship(s) has/have +288GJ/s and can also tank 5500 DPS+ even dreadnoughts should just die but in escals you play the position of I will kill you before you kill me.
not to mention they tank a lot usually like takes 3 20-30k Volleys from a Moros and in any marauder or cap chain setup which would completely lack DPS unless huge numbers... but now you've lost the point, it is to complete these sites as quick as possible risking 5b dreadnoughts and raking in huge for your risk if we are not talking about doing escals with dreads then there is nothing to talk about because incursions isk/hr ratio would easily overshadow c5/c6 sites simply put because WH sites once ran down through there regular spawns despawn... unlike WH's/Missions/Null sites ETC...
I have done capital escalations in a moros.I know how they work and the fact that the isk/hour is less then incursions because you can not run them continously all day. But i think you are missing the point that i am making. They are planning to remove the ability for the current guns(XL guns) to be able to hit subscap(= sleepless guardians). The want to replace it with other set of guns that can hit subcaps but only do 2k dps in stead of the 10k+ volleys a dread now does with the current guns. The 2k dps guns will be significant less then the dps now (with XL guns)when webbed and painted(15k dps easy). So much less that it is not worth using the dread subcap guns in pve and pvp.In the case of capital escalations you bether just warp em in and out at range.
No local in null sec would fix everything!
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Jack Miton
Anomalous Existence Low-Class
4736
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Posted - 2015.11.04 22:24:59 -
[17] - Quote
2k dps on an unkillable, mostly unewar-able platform is MUCH better than any battleship. now, if you want to talk about useless ship classes, then sure lets discuss battleships...
in any case, the ENTIRE POINT of this change is to stop dread blapping, which is a change that should have gone in years ago. This change is excellent and complaining about it is not going to change how excellent it is.
There is no Bob.
Stuck In Here With Me: http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/
Down the Pipe: http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
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Jezza McWaffle
Isogen 5
257
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Posted - 2015.11.04 23:24:13 -
[18] - Quote
Lets be analytical here for a minute.
Now first off its 5-6 MONTHS not days or weeks before these changes and any speculation on them is precisely that because we know very little about the end plans and the uses for dreadnoughts.
Completing ignoring escalations because you can be guaranteed they will change.
Dreads will be (with current CCP information) be less important in current Wormhole fleet combat (though funnily enough probably better everywhere else) because the 2K DPS mark for the high tracking guns is pretty low for an imobile ship, though since CCP are eyeing up refitting like its the bad stink in the room we could see their survivability getting buffed akin with the new modules and T2 / faction of existing. I do hope they move to around 3-4K DPS, I think 5K might be too much but we'll see.
Hopefully this means there will be less capitals in Wormhole space (Fozzie already condones the amount of capitals I think?) and evictions will be more frequent since the hostile cap fleet is less important. This could also shake up doctrines and introduce more battleships into fleets since apart from the mass issues having to deal with dread blapping could be less important.
I think we should be more looking into will capitals be viable in Wormholes following this change, what about the 'new' carriers guys? They look like potential monsters if what we have seen is anything to go by. The new triage ships for example are roughly the size of existing supers. Maybe that means all capitals are getting their sizes changed but I do hope that these new triage ships are available in W-space and don't have stupidly high mass and can't fit through wormholes. If dreads won't be very effective as fleet support ships outside of killing Citadels and other capitals then will people bother with them?
EVE's worst badass
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Nox52
Sudden Buggery
92
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Posted - 2015.11.04 23:48:05 -
[19] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:2k dps on an unkillable, mostly unewar-able platform is MUCH better than any battleship. now, if you want to talk about useless ship classes, then sure lets discuss battleships...
in any case, the ENTIRE POINT of this change is to stop dread blapping, which is a change that should have gone in years ago. This change is excellent and complaining about it is not going to change how excellent it is.
I am not convinced tbh. I don't see the point of a expensive, immobile, mass heavy, skill intensive, that can't refit and can only do 2k dps in a fixed radius once it sieges up ship when for the same cost I could bring several or more battleships that can mjd around/mwd around and be deployed down a low class chain if needed.
Sieging poses/citadels is another discussion.
The reason why bs aren't used in wh atm is that they are so much easier to blap off by dreads. Change the dreads so they can't blap subcaps anymore and they become a about as sexy as a brick - because that's what they'll be, a sitting, solid brick.
I'm not too fussed either way, and the devil is in the details, which we don't know atm. |
Renegade Melkem
Darkness Consumed I N F A M O U S
0
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Posted - 2015.11.05 05:19:59 -
[20] - Quote
Nox makes a very good point, almost as skill intensive as a super I would say theirs a few more skills involved but it takes forever for JDC5/Dread5/Guns5/Comps and cap repair you get my point... they are simply not effective enough even in meta today to be worth the training/Archons, SC's, Titans are and have a very distinct purpose which after the changes are all going to have awesome roles.
Now going back to escelations if it was as simple as CCP doesn't want blap dreads in pvp okay then simple make it so while in siege mode you cannot activate weapons on anything Battle cruiser or smaller or battleship or smaller whatever is intended by CCP, Reductions in DPS don't really effect escalations you can crank it down to 8k and the dreads can still manage to complete the sites even though the Moros can crank 15k+ max skilled as long as this insane damage application is mitigated on CITADELS.... and Sub capitals their is no more issue.
If something like this is done all parties remain happy and dreads are still giant potato km's guaranteed to die.
I would like to say that jezza made a awesome suggestion on carriers why do we need to lower dps on dreads shouldn't we be upping the dps on carriers fighters since we are removing Triage/Slowcat concept with archons and creating Force Aux Caps.
Max DPS Thanny is 3.5k (Triage/Cap Chain/RR/Sentry's) < Max DPS Moros is 15k < Max DPS Nyx (shadows 21K) < Max DPS Erebus 13.5k
Who is really not in the balance here kinda obvious the carrier is OP in force projection and Logi role but with the loss of that its a piece of scrap metal worth 3b fit properly...flawed horrendously, so hopefully they deploy fighters squadrons with mad dps and make them useful..
BACK TO SUBJECT THOUGH
Seems the Dread is the one that is a immobile potato compared to other caps, Poor jump range, lacks dps compared to SC's which cost 25b compared to a 5b Moros so is justifiable, lacks EHP compared to all other classes, and can only project its damage to high sig targets not moving or moving inside transversal....
but if the point is to remove their effectiveness from escalations then we will just blob them with 10 carrier alts most groups are probably already theory crafting. Throw wormholer's a bone CCP you cant win this one
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Winthorp
3794
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Posted - 2015.11.05 10:35:51 -
[21] - Quote
HAHA GET REKT NERDS. |
KC Kamikaze
Black Dragon Elite Great Blue Balls of Fire
126
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Posted - 2015.12.20 04:45:25 -
[22] - Quote
I tend to think they will not be nerfing solo escalations ... it's been said before incursions and null sites are stupid easy isk and in never ending supply. I hope their intent is to make them less of a boring ass grind but still able to be run solo by a competent pilot.
These changes are likely due to some new meta ccp is working on for capital ship combat in null. I'm confident the intent is to make them more fun to pilot. I'm also confident I have too much faith in ccp. |
Jack Miton
Anomalous Existence Low-Class
4768
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Posted - 2015.12.20 11:45:08 -
[23] - Quote
KC Kamikaze wrote:I tend to think they will not be nerfing solo escalations... you tend to be incorrect
There is no Bob.
Stuck In Here With Me: http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/
Down the Pipe: http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
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ScarlettJohanson
Awakened Legion
1
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Posted - 2015.12.20 12:29:08 -
[24] - Quote
Personally I think they need to stop changing the game up with everything eve and just let things be. |
RcTamiya
SUPREME MATHEMATICS A Band Apart.
40
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Posted - 2015.12.21 06:55:38 -
[25] - Quote
ScarlettJohanson wrote:Personally I think they need to stop changing the game up with everything eve and just let things be.
There's mechanics so bad and unbalanced, that changes are more than welcome, dreadblapping and solo dread are great examples of that ;) |
Neckbeard Nolyfe
Zero Fun Allowed
141
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Posted - 2015.12.21 13:10:43 -
[26] - Quote
RcTamiya wrote:ScarlettJohanson wrote:Personally I think they need to stop changing the game up with everything eve and just let things be. There's mechanics so bad and unbalanced, that changes are more than welcome, dreadblapping and solo dread are great examples of that ;)
Please tell me that was support for your bigger fleet.
~lvl 60 paladin~
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Arden Bastilla
Defiance LLC
2
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Posted - 2015.12.22 20:46:49 -
[27] - Quote
It's obvious that the Dread changes will affect Cap Escalations in WH space, and of course Citadel attacks.
Which means CCP will hopefully rebalance Cap escalations. So maybe instead of a large wave of Sleeper BS for the escalation it's more like 1-2 Capitals with 3-4 BS where the Caps can't hit the subs and visa versa. That way you are forced to bring a dread/carrier into the site (one because you need to initiate the spawn) and two a sub cap fleet to kill the smaller ships. From my understanding CCP wants caps to HAVE to rely on subs for survival.
Right now you maybe not have the endless sites like incursions but you can run them with only a few accounts or less which means a few people getting really rich. With a new setup CCP might be forcing fleets that are setup to run Cap Escalations.
I would say that they should also change the site spawning mechanic as we all know that WH's will collect sites until they eventually despawn which means people will go into other WHs and activate all the sites just to get more to spawn into theirs.
They should make the site spawning similar to NS where the class determines how many and what type are permanently there, maybe with a random chance for special sites to spawn. Then all you have to do is adjust the loot to time rewards to determine how to bring WHs in line with NS or something like that.
Everyone is getting hung up on how the dread changes are going to hurt WHs, but all it means is that CCP needs to adjust Cap Escalations to match the Dread changes. |
Michael1995
Lazerhawks
207
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Posted - 2015.12.24 03:37:02 -
[28] - Quote
RcTamiya wrote:ScarlettJohanson wrote:Personally I think they need to stop changing the game up with everything eve and just let things be. There's mechanics so bad and unbalanced, that changes are more than welcome, dreadblapping and solo dread are great examples of that ;)
Is that why you've been using an even more broken mechanic of bombing sleepers in a red giant?
Selling WH CFC Standings
10b/month for +10 with:
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RcTamiya
SUPREME MATHEMATICS A Band Apart.
41
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Posted - 2015.12.24 09:38:05 -
[29] - Quote
Michael1995 wrote:RcTamiya wrote:ScarlettJohanson wrote:Personally I think they need to stop changing the game up with everything eve and just let things be. There's mechanics so bad and unbalanced, that changes are more than welcome, dreadblapping and solo dread are great examples of that ;) Is that why you've been using an even more broken mechanic of bombing sleepers in a red giant?
Is that why you have a Thread in your Forum for Smartbombfarming C6 RG? |
Necharo Rackham
The Red Circle Inc. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
69
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Posted - 2015.12.24 16:01:37 -
[30] - Quote
KC Kamikaze wrote:I tend to think they will not be nerfing solo escalations
Then I don't think you and CCP are on the same page. They have said that they will be changing escalations so that capitals will not spawn additional farmable waves, and that it will not be possible to farm a site for multiple days. They've also said they want to encourage people to PVE in their static. |
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