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Cidanel Afuran
Static-Noise Upholders
367
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Posted - 2015.11.03 22:49:25 -
[31] - Quote
Murkar Omaristos wrote:The target hunting benefit of not.....? Deep null is where the targets are. I'm moving from deep null to neighboring areas of deep null where enemies are. You don't seem to understand how hunting ratters works, have you ever flown black ops?
Also, the guy above you is right. Saying that you need to wait an hour to move into position for no real reason isn't an argument.
People are welcome to disagree and shoot me down based on the fact that I burned up a timer from impatience, but that's dodging the issue and not addressing the main point of this thread - which is that fatigue kills fun and builds tedium.
You don't have to end up home at the end of every op. Move somewhere and camp out in a region for a few days. Jump through a WH to another part of deep null. Have scouts and use gates when waiting for fatigue.
Fatigue doesn't kill fun. It makes you have to choose where you live more carefully. |
Felsusguy
Aliastra Gallente Federation
369
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Posted - 2015.11.03 22:50:49 -
[32] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Felsusguy wrote: And, just so you know, Ultima Online didn't die.
Besides the cheater carebear who tried to charge people real money for joining his corp, that's the funniest thing I've read all week. You must want to see a psychiatric professional.
Finding humor in the truth spoken plainly is not normal or healthy adult behavior.
The Caldari put business before pleasure. The Gallente put business in pleasure.
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Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
311
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Posted - 2015.11.03 23:08:14 -
[33] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:Blops needs help, badly.
A)Midpointing basically means you are done for the night.
B)Given the expanses of nullsec, most of the good places are at least a mid point away from any realistic place to stage. Yes you jump further than caps, but it really isn't that far. Only groups blopsing out of wormholes can really hit the edges of null without blowing their fatigue.
C)Nullsec needs risk, and part of that risk is putting the fangs back on blops. There are many places where, especially after the null WH nerfs, are effectively risk free. Risk free is bad for the game, and bad for the economy.
The easy fix is thus: if you are at 0 fatigue, you get a max of 5 minutes from a blops jump. This would go a long way towards fixing things while still having a penalty for rapid fire, as you could realstically mid and move around much better with just one 'free' jump.
I have to agree with this: I miss a good BLOP - both giving and receiving. They seem exceptionally rare now a days. |
Caleb Seremshur
Gladiators of Rage RAZOR Alliance
696
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Posted - 2015.11.03 23:23:10 -
[34] - Quote
Murkar Omaristos wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:Fatigue is fine, Black Ops should get the Covert cloak so they can sneak around without needing to jump, but you made a screw up, you deserve your timer. Guess I'll go play world of war ships for a week with everyone else :)
Dying duck in a thunderstorm. Right here.
Maybe you should go play something else for a week. Take a step back and get some perspective. All I'm seeing from this thread is another entitled whining baby getting upset that the mechanic introduced to limit risk-free cyno travel is indeed limiting his/her ability to strike and run away with impunity and without recourse.
Perhaps the public needs a history lesson on why jump fatigue was introduced - because while Asakai can make the headlines it does profoundly demonstrate that giving extremely powerful ships more mobility than interceptors is broken game design and was many years overdue for a nerf.
Veteran and solo/small gang PVP advocate.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
14839
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Posted - 2015.11.03 23:24:41 -
[35] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote: Perhaps the public needs a history lesson on why jump fatigue was introduced - because while Asakai can make the headlines it does profoundly demonstrate that giving extremely powerful ships more mobility than interceptors is broken game design and was many years overdue for a nerf.
Go ahead and let me know how many people joined the game for jump fatigue, as opposed to how many joined for Asakai or BR-5.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Madd Adda
139
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Posted - 2015.11.03 23:27:46 -
[36] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:Madd Adda wrote:Quote: the jump fatigue reductions were not enough posting in a "working as intended" thread Jump fatigue doesn't stop you from using gates, like the rest of us. Even if you gate back after a drop, through extremely hostile space, which I do all the time, you still accrue fatigue faster than you can wait it off. This is a problem. There is no other realistic way to infiltrate extremely deep and guarded null besides mid-pointing. Both of these point to blops not being sufficiently mobile to actually do its intended role.
any further reductions in jump fatigue will only increase power projection. you need to the about the consequences for the game before your own desires.
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Go ahead and let me know how many people joined the game for jump fatigue, as opposed to how many joined for Asakai or BR-5.
because that's all that matters, right? The only thing that matters are decisions that boost the number of people in the game, while disregarding what is actually good for the well being of EVE.
I wonder how many left post Input-broadcasting banning as opposed to joining.
Carebear extraordinaire
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Felsusguy
Aliastra Gallente Federation
370
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Posted - 2015.11.03 23:30:05 -
[37] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Caleb Seremshur wrote: Perhaps the public needs a history lesson on why jump fatigue was introduced - because while Asakai can make the headlines it does profoundly demonstrate that giving extremely powerful ships more mobility than interceptors is broken game design and was many years overdue for a nerf.
Go ahead and let me know how many people joined the game for jump fatigue, as opposed to how many joined for Asakai or BR-5. Just how many people actually did join as a result of those large battles?
Do you know? Hint: It's probably not enough to justify the broken power projection that it had before.
The Caldari put business before pleasure. The Gallente put business in pleasure.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
14839
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Posted - 2015.11.03 23:32:59 -
[38] - Quote
Felsusguy wrote: Just how many people actually did join as a result of those large battles?
If I recall, CCP posted those numbers somewhere around the net. It was the biggest spike in new subs in the history of the game, at the time.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Felsusguy
Aliastra Gallente Federation
370
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Posted - 2015.11.03 23:34:58 -
[39] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Felsusguy wrote: Just how many people actually did join as a result of those large battles?
If I recall, CCP posted those numbers somewhere around the net. It was the biggest spike in new subs in the history of the game, at the time. But did they stay?
The Caldari put business before pleasure. The Gallente put business in pleasure.
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Madd Adda
139
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Posted - 2015.11.03 23:36:15 -
[40] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Felsusguy wrote: Just how many people actually did join as a result of those large battles?
If I recall, CCP posted those numbers somewhere around the net. It was the biggest spike in new subs in the history of the game, at the time.
That's because of the sensationalized news reporting of those battles. We all know it happens, but when people join the game, their expectations are crushed under the harshness of the learning curve.
Carebear extraordinaire
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Murkar Omaristos
The Alabaster Albatross Sev3rance
208
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Posted - 2015.11.04 00:31:32 -
[41] - Quote
this thread right now. |
Caleb Seremshur
Gladiators of Rage RAZOR Alliance
696
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Posted - 2015.11.04 00:59:58 -
[42] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Caleb Seremshur wrote: Perhaps the public needs a history lesson on why jump fatigue was introduced - because while Asakai can make the headlines it does profoundly demonstrate that giving extremely powerful ships more mobility than interceptors is broken game design and was many years overdue for a nerf.
Go ahead and let me know how many people joined the game for jump fatigue, as opposed to how many joined for Asakai or BR-5.
We still have no real knowledge of how many accounts are alts.
See I can segway on a tangent too.
I'm not even going to entertain your quip with a real response due to the point above. We have absolutely no way of knowing who is actually playing the game and who is just a dummy account.
Veteran and solo/small gang PVP advocate.
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Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2811
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Posted - 2015.11.04 01:30:38 -
[43] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Rivr Luzade wrote:Nah, it's not too long. Just learn to manage your fatigue and you won't have problems. This is really an unacceptable position to take. "Don't play too much, or we won't let you play anymore!" TIL if you don't use a jump drive you aren't really playing. |
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
672
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Posted - 2015.11.04 01:30:46 -
[44] - Quote
Madd Adda wrote:any further reductions in jump fatigue will only increase power projection. you need to the about the consequences for the game before your own desires.
Not really, especially if it is specified to just blops or blops like things, and especially if it is a gradual tweaking.
I am thinking about the consequences beyond my own desires. I see content creators flocking to Hi Sec, as that's the last place where there is a reasonable chance of creating antagonist content in short game session due to target availability and mechanics. The game itself is twonky when antagonizing ratters, a critical part of a complete FozzieSov Ecosystem, is just not worth the effort and the tools totally insufficient. The economy suffers, and the game play experience is cheapened.
Blops and capitals are two different beasts. Save blops.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM XI
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Sigras
Conglomo
1086
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Posted - 2015.11.04 07:42:30 -
[45] - Quote
You want quick access to fights? Grow a pair and quit hiding 50 LY from your closest enemy.
All I ever read in threads like this is "BOO HOO, My empire is so large I cant traverse it in a week"
Excuse me if I dont have a lot of sympathy for that attitude. You cant have both safety and easy access to combat, and that is how it should be. |
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
331
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Posted - 2015.11.04 09:03:47 -
[46] - Quote
All your points are mute as all jump capable ships are also capable of taking gates now so you have no excuse for not using your jump capable ship even with the negligible timers you risk averse blobbing, F1, null bear. |
Madd Adda
141
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Posted - 2015.11.04 09:11:52 -
[47] - Quote
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:All your points are mute as all jump capable ships are also capable of taking gates now so you have no excuse for not using your jump capable ship even with the negligible timers you risk averse blobbing, F1, null bear.
But that would mean long commutes, slow boating through null/low. How will they generate content under these conditions?
Carebear extraordinaire
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Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1781
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Posted - 2015.11.04 09:31:31 -
[48] - Quote
Murkar Omaristos wrote:Cidanel Afuran wrote:So you want to change a game mechanic because you forgot to check your timer?
hmm... As the commenter above you pointed out, moving from deep null (where good targets are) sucks when you have to wait 20 minutes in between jumps. I won't share my route, but it would have taken me three hours of just sitting cloaked waiting out timers. There's really no reason that needs to be the case, it's a feature that nerfs black ops hardcore and it just adds tedium rather than fun.
top tip: start making people red and start using gates, working as intended
Recruiting V I R I I Small Gang Nullsec PVP
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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Rivr Luzade
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
2071
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Posted - 2015.11.04 09:36:45 -
[49] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:It should be removed until they can work out a better idea. Personally, I think the upcoming nerf to carriers is a good candidate. The power was never power projection, but the fact that subcapital forces are not viable for use against caps with built in reps. No, the problem is that numbers beat everything, and fast moving large numbers across long distances do so even more. You have seen what CFC did to Providence a while back and that even without the need for massive capital numbers. And you know full well how easy it was for big entities before the fatigue changes to hold large swaths of Sov without any contest. If you can again start to just move your caps around at will and throw thousand of sub caps at much smaller entities, the entire point of "allowing" small entities access to sov is gone again. And if I remember correctly, while the big battles were "amazing", no one liked Tidi and there were regular outrages over #soulcrushinglag and #soulcrushingtidi after every single huge battle and even after many medium sized battles where tidi still hit 10% due to bad nodes. Back then, tons of people were complaining that no one could contest sov. With Aegis, this would have changed and people could actually take useless sov from big entities (or not if you have 40k people against you), but you still could not use it as the same big entities could just pile onto your useless system easily and repeatedly ... exactly what Murkar wants to do, just in much bigger volume. I still remember PL dropping 90 BLOPS onto one of our Cyno jammers to RF it, just to get their supers into Querious easier. I do not quite see how this makes the game better if people again can just pile on you from another corner of the universe just like that, but that might just be me. I also hear a lot of moaning about fatigue from our people, but they are of the same caliber who cannot learn to control their behaviors properly.
Caps do not lose their built-in reps.
UI Improvement Collective
My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2361
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Posted - 2015.11.04 09:37:39 -
[50] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Murkar Omaristos wrote:Cidanel Afuran wrote:So you want to change a game mechanic because you forgot to check your timer?
hmm... As the commenter above you pointed out, moving from deep null (where good targets are) sucks when you have to wait 20 minutes in between jumps. I won't share my route, but it would have taken me three hours of just sitting cloaked waiting out timers. There's really no reason that needs to be the case, it's a feature that nerfs black ops hardcore and it just adds tedium rather than fun. top tip: start making people red and start using gates, working as intended
You know there is a solid arguement that blops using gates is NOT as intended since, as I am confident you know, they always could...
BLOPS, along with things like moving home were collateral damage caught up in the only way to let large swathes of space breath again. If such things can be surgically tweaked without undoing the net good of phoebe, I am all for it.
No-one was reluctant to deploy caps because of a BLOPS blob before. |
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Gracie Lemmont
Failure in Progress Short Bus Mercenaries.
1
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Posted - 2015.11.04 09:54:16 -
[51] - Quote
"No-one was reluctant to deploy caps because of a BLOPS blob before"
Exactly this. If someone wants to use a massive fleet of blops to invade someones sov then the sov owners can easily use their home capitals to crush that fleet along with support ships. I think this mechanic should only be applied to capitals because that was the problem in the first place. I dont think that if the jump mechanic for blops was removed of even lowered would create a meta where you would only see massive blobs fleet moving around constantly. |
Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1781
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Posted - 2015.11.04 10:06:45 -
[52] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Lan Wang wrote:Murkar Omaristos wrote:Cidanel Afuran wrote:So you want to change a game mechanic because you forgot to check your timer?
hmm... As the commenter above you pointed out, moving from deep null (where good targets are) sucks when you have to wait 20 minutes in between jumps. I won't share my route, but it would have taken me three hours of just sitting cloaked waiting out timers. There's really no reason that needs to be the case, it's a feature that nerfs black ops hardcore and it just adds tedium rather than fun. top tip: start making people red and start using gates, working as intended You know there is a solid arguement that blops using gates is NOT as intended since, as I am confident you know, they always could... BLOPS, along with things like moving home were collateral damage caught up in the only way to let large swathes of space breath again. If such things can be surgically tweaked without undoing the net good of phoebe, I am all for it. No-one was reluctant to deploy caps because of a BLOPS blob before.
Nobody wanted to deploy caps before because of cap blobs from across the map, i dont think blops were an issue when you can just batphone any major entity and tell them caps to kill in xxx and they would be there in 5mins.
Any more reductions in blops fatigue etc will make them op and be the ship of choice for everyone. currently there is only around a 25-35mins wait till your fatigue is at 0, thats plenty of time to be finding targets with scouts within 8 ly distance. yeah i agree with gates are not intended for blops.
Recruiting V I R I I Small Gang Nullsec PVP
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2361
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Posted - 2015.11.04 10:27:04 -
[53] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:afkalt wrote:Lan Wang wrote:Murkar Omaristos wrote:Cidanel Afuran wrote:So you want to change a game mechanic because you forgot to check your timer?
hmm... As the commenter above you pointed out, moving from deep null (where good targets are) sucks when you have to wait 20 minutes in between jumps. I won't share my route, but it would have taken me three hours of just sitting cloaked waiting out timers. There's really no reason that needs to be the case, it's a feature that nerfs black ops hardcore and it just adds tedium rather than fun. top tip: start making people red and start using gates, working as intended You know there is a solid arguement that blops using gates is NOT as intended since, as I am confident you know, they always could... BLOPS, along with things like moving home were collateral damage caught up in the only way to let large swathes of space breath again. If such things can be surgically tweaked without undoing the net good of phoebe, I am all for it. No-one was reluctant to deploy caps because of a BLOPS blob before. Nobody wanted to deploy caps before because of cap blobs from across the map, i dont think blops were an issue when you can just batphone any major entity and tell them caps to kill in xxx and they would be there in 5mins. Any more reductions in blops fatigue etc will make them op and be the ship of choice for everyone. currently there is only around a 25-35mins wait till your fatigue is at 0, thats plenty of time to be finding targets with scouts within 8 ly distance. yeah i agree with gates are not intended for blops.
I'm not sure you would because of the lack of reps that can come with, they are highly vulnerable to a counter drop. Sure sure, we all know about the RR sin but that's a really easy chain to break. They are hilariously bombable too. I very much doubt they'd become a real problem.
And you know what, if they did - we can always apply it again. That was the point of this right? To have dials to turn? Let's twiddle some knobs and see if it works out.
The problem, really, as others have alluded to, is the midpoint scenario. "Gates" is well and good but their placement is not intuitive vs the spherical range bubble as well as it also doubling the covert cyno requirements.
I think the fatigue and delays are actually fine, what is hurting BLOPS more than anything is the range and special snowflake rules to screw with mids is a pain in the ass and not intuitive. So perhaps, intially, kick the range up by 2 LY and see what happens. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
14848
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Posted - 2015.11.04 13:01:24 -
[54] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote: No, the problem is that numbers beat everything
That's not a problem. There are not many force multipliers available in a video game. Since this is not a flight sim, "skill" will never really be in play at an individual level.
That just leaves numbers or pricetag.
Quote: You have seen what CFC did to Providence a while back and that even without the need for massive capital numbers.
And I laughed, too. Provi are pricks.
Quote: And you know full well how easy it was for big entities before the fatigue changes to hold large swaths of Sov without any contest.
And Goons are dead now? Oh wait, no, it's still happening, it's just the small and mid size entities that collapsed. Mission... accomplished?
Lol.
Quote: Caps do not lose their built-in reps.
Carriers will not have triage, if you haven't heard. That's being given to a whole other ship class.
That actually solves the problem nicely, since there isn't any do-all ship anymore that outclasses everything else at logi and damage projection. Although my preferred solution would have been deleting sentry drones from the game.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1543
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Posted - 2015.11.04 13:32:17 -
[55] - Quote
Murkar Omaristos wrote:Cidanel Afuran wrote:So you want to change a game mechanic because you forgot to check your timer?
hmm... As the commenter above you pointed out, moving from deep null (where good targets are) sucks when you have to wait 20 minutes in between jumps. I won't share my route, but it would have taken me three hours of just sitting cloaked waiting out timers. There's really no reason that needs to be the case, it's a feature that nerfs black ops hardcore and it just adds tedium rather than fun.
Why do you need to travel back and forth?
Here's the vulnerability. Grrr Goons will be my example. They have performed well in the game and over time have amassed deeeeeeep pockets. You free up BLOPS from jump fatigue, then there will be 100+ fleets of redeemers blotting out the sun for the lols. 50% keeps them from being useless AND keeps them from being abused. Some groups can afford 1 billion isk taxis and stashing sizeable fleets in multiple areas of eve.
Stash capital fleet in npc station. Project BLOPS across the map. Dock. Board capital fleet.... power projection is back.
My opinion is CCP caved and in a bad way. The week long max encourages people to play every saturday and then park the stuff for a week. It's one more cave that promotes ping play, which is one of the bigger issues with eve at the moment. |
Always Shi
t Posting
1
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Posted - 2015.11.04 13:43:10 -
[56] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote: You free up BLOPS from jump fatigue, then there will be 100+ fleets of redeemers blotting out the sun for the lols. 50% keeps them from being useless AND keeps them from being abused. Some groups can afford 1 billion isk taxis and stashing sizeable fleets in multiple areas of eve.
Stash capital fleet in npc station. Project BLOPS across the map. Dock. Board capital fleet.... power projection is back.
Why would anyone waste time setting up cyno routes, using expensive blops BS and jumping around when cheap, uncatchable taxiceptors exist?
All of this can already be done. It's not done because there's no need. |
DeadDuck
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
175
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Posted - 2015.11.04 13:52:17 -
[57] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Rivr Luzade wrote:Nah, it's not too long. Just learn to manage your fatigue and you won't have problems. This is really an unacceptable position to take. "Don't play too much, or we won't let you play anymore!"
No he is saying to not use the BLOPS to much... there are literally hundreds of other ships to fly...
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Rivr Luzade
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
2071
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Posted - 2015.11.04 14:23:20 -
[58] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:And Goons are dead now? Oh wait, no, it's still happening, it's just the small and mid size entities that collapsed. Mission... accomplished? Lol. Quote: Caps do not lose their built-in reps.
Carriers will not have triage, if you haven't heard. That's being given to a whole other ship class. That actually solves the problem nicely, since there isn't any do-all ship anymore that outclasses everything else at logi and damage projection. Although my preferred solution would have been deleting sentry drones from the game. That is the entire problem, they are not dead. The contrary is the case and they get bigger and bigger because people are not interested in less security, less stability, less safety. And if an entity as big and unopposable as CFC can start moving around freely again, it's only again going to be detrimental to the game at large. Entities like CFC need to be starved to death so that a more varied landscape of entities can take root in Sov.
Their build in reps stay. Remote reps are effectively removed. That's a difference.
UI Improvement Collective
My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
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SFM Hobb3s
Wrecking Shots Northern Coalition.
382
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Posted - 2015.11.04 14:37:48 -
[59] - Quote
OP should consider himself lucky there is less penalty with black ops than with caps. For that matter everyone is lucky that any ships at all suffer less jump fatigue than caps (ie blopse, industrials...). CCP wanted to curb power project and it couldn't realistically do so if the userbase was just going to circumvent this by stashing caps and moving around in indies. Which they certainly would have nerfed if they noticed anyone abusing it (they did warn us of this also). |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2380
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Posted - 2015.11.04 14:38:20 -
[60] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Rivr Luzade wrote:Nah, it's not too long. Just learn to manage your fatigue and you won't have problems. This is really an unacceptable position to take. "Don't play too much, or we won't let you play anymore!"
Last time I checked, jump fatigue didn't prevent you from accessing the server. |
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