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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
331
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Posted - 2015.11.21 15:59:07 -
[301] - Quote
Stitch Kaneland wrote:In a 1v1 scenario, i see HICs as a non-issue. Worst case scenario, ill just slow boat back to gate. What im most worried about are the HICs with no guns, double plated with sebos waiting on a gate with their gang/fleet/camp etc. Or the one HIC that holds you for 30seconds till the rest of the gang gets there. That is my main concern. I see no counter to that short of blobbing the **** out of them in typical n+1 fashion. Which like you said, is ishtars online all over again. That is assuming that you are fighting on a gate, and even then that is a long burn back to the gate in an BS or BC unless you are AB fit, plenty of time for hostile reinforcement to arrive on the other side.
This will definitely shift the meta towards AB, I can see oversized ABs on BCs and perhaps on BSs becoming a lot more common. Or more likely people just won't use BSs and BCs for solo or small gang.
Modulated ECM Effects
An Alternative to Skill Trading
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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
1247
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Posted - 2015.11.21 16:48:07 -
[302] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:Stitch Kaneland wrote:In a 1v1 scenario, i see HICs as a non-issue. Worst case scenario, ill just slow boat back to gate. What im most worried about are the HICs with no guns, double plated with sebos waiting on a gate with their gang/fleet/camp etc. Or the one HIC that holds you for 30seconds till the rest of the gang gets there. That is my main concern. I see no counter to that short of blobbing the **** out of them in typical n+1 fashion. Which like you said, is ishtars online all over again. That is assuming that you are fighting on a gate, and even then that is a long burn back to the gate in an BS or BC unless you are AB fit, plenty of time for hostile reinforcement to arrive on the other side. This will definitely shift the meta towards AB, I can see oversized ABs on BCs and perhaps on BSs becoming a lot more common. Or more likely people just won't use BSs and BCs for solo or small gang.
i still can't believe they haven't said much since the thread started, and it also highlights how poor AB's are that only oversized AB's are talked about. and how broken it is that you can do it.
T3's need to be versatile not have T2 resists, OP dps and tank obsoleting T2 ships entirely.
ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 highslots for droneboats
Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
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Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
650
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Posted - 2015.11.21 16:52:10 -
[303] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:
This will definitely shift the meta towards AB, I can see oversized ABs on BCs and perhaps on BSs becoming a lot more common. Or more likely people just won't use BSs and BCs for solo or small gang.
Which is a shame.
CCP: Here are some new BC changes to make BCs viable again
4 weeks later.
CCP: So we are making some changes that will dumpster BCs again and reinforce the cruiser and below meta
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS
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HandelsPharmi
Pharmi on CharBazaar
1788
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Posted - 2015.11.21 17:06:19 -
[304] - Quote
Stitch Kaneland wrote:Moac Tor wrote:
This will definitely shift the meta towards AB, I can see oversized ABs on BCs and perhaps on BSs becoming a lot more common. Or more likely people just won't use BSs and BCs for solo or small gang.
Which is a shame. CCP: Here are some new BC changes to make BCs viable again 4 weeks later. CCP: So we are making some changes that will dumpster BCs again and reinforce the cruiser and below meta
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Scripted Warp Disruption Field Generators now Scramble, disabling MJDs and MWDs Wow, one single ship per scripted Warp Disruption Field Generator. And all 40 other will burn away. |
Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
651
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Posted - 2015.11.21 17:22:32 -
[305] - Quote
HandelsPharmi wrote:Stitch Kaneland wrote:Moac Tor wrote:
This will definitely shift the meta towards AB, I can see oversized ABs on BCs and perhaps on BSs becoming a lot more common. Or more likely people just won't use BSs and BCs for solo or small gang.
Which is a shame. CCP: Here are some new BC changes to make BCs viable again 4 weeks later. CCP: So we are making some changes that will dumpster BCs again and reinforce the cruiser and below meta CCP Larrikin wrote:
Scripted Warp Disruption Field Generators now Scramble, disabling MJDs and MWDs Wow, one single ship per scripted Warp Disruption Field Generator. And all 40 other will burn away.
You should probably read the rest of the thread where I am specifically talking about solo and small gangs. But go ahead and jump into the middle of the conversation like you know something.
This has little affect on fleets but will make roaming solo/small gangs a major pain in the ass. Not to mention you act like gate campers/fleets have only 1 HIC.
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS
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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
1247
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Posted - 2015.11.21 17:33:01 -
[306] - Quote
so does using a WDFG actually prevent you from using normal disruptors or scrams?
T3's need to be versatile not have T2 resists, OP dps and tank obsoleting T2 ships entirely.
ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 highslots for droneboats
Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
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Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
651
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Posted - 2015.11.21 17:35:36 -
[307] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:so does using a WDFG actually prevent you from using normal disruptors or scrams?
I dont think it prevents you from using standard disruptors/scrams (havent tested). When you have a scram with the same range as a linked disruptor though, why waste the mid(s)?
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS
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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
1247
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Posted - 2015.11.21 17:41:20 -
[308] - Quote
Stitch Kaneland wrote:Harvey James wrote:so does using a WDFG actually prevent you from using normal disruptors or scrams? I dont think it prevents you from using standard disruptors/scrams (havent tested). When you have a scram with the same range as a linked disruptor though, why waste the mid(s)?
it would allow you too scram a cynabal and just point another target until someone else could scram it, this assumes only 1 WDFG ofc, my thoughts being for such powerful abilities shouldn't a drawback be added? also on a physics point of view wouldn't this mod prevent the weaker mods field from projecting through?
- limit to 1 WDFG per ship (like dictors have) - disallow normal points being usable at the same time
p.s. can rep bots work when normal reps don't?
T3's need to be versatile not have T2 resists, OP dps and tank obsoleting T2 ships entirely.
ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 highslots for droneboats
Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
331
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Posted - 2015.11.21 20:09:39 -
[309] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:Stitch Kaneland wrote:Harvey James wrote:so does using a WDFG actually prevent you from using normal disruptors or scrams? I dont think it prevents you from using standard disruptors/scrams (havent tested). When you have a scram with the same range as a linked disruptor though, why waste the mid(s)? it would allow you too scram a cynabal and just point another target until someone else could scram it, this assumes only 1 WDFG ofc, my thoughts being for such powerful abilities shouldn't a drawback be added? also on a physics point of view wouldn't this mod prevent the weaker mods field from projecting through? - limit to 1 WDFG per ship (like dictors have) - disallow normal points being usable at the same time p.s. can rep bots work when normal reps don't? You can also fit up to 6 infinite points. You'd have to sacrifice guns but if you wanted dedicated fleet tackle then I believe it is possible to run all 6 at once. The fitting requirements are not that high. That is also not including standard mid slot point and webs if you really wanted to go all out. So no idea what HandelsPharmi above was going on about.
Modulated ECM Effects
An Alternative to Skill Trading
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1959
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Posted - 2015.11.21 20:34:00 -
[310] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:Harvey James wrote:Stitch Kaneland wrote:Harvey James wrote:so does using a WDFG actually prevent you from using normal disruptors or scrams? I dont think it prevents you from using standard disruptors/scrams (havent tested). When you have a scram with the same range as a linked disruptor though, why waste the mid(s)? it would allow you too scram a cynabal and just point another target until someone else could scram it, this assumes only 1 WDFG ofc, my thoughts being for such powerful abilities shouldn't a drawback be added? also on a physics point of view wouldn't this mod prevent the weaker mods field from projecting through? - limit to 1 WDFG per ship (like dictors have) - disallow normal points being usable at the same time p.s. can rep bots work when normal reps don't? You can also fit up to 6 infinite points. You'd have to sacrifice guns but if you wanted dedicated fleet tackle then I believe it is possible to run all 6 at once. The fitting requirements are not that high. That is also not including standard mid slot point and webs if you really wanted to go all out. So no idea what HandelsPharmi above was going on about.
Go ahead and try fitting and running six points with propulsion module, cap booster, and tank. Then remember that remote repairs do not work when any WDFG is active (scripted or not).
CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
331
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Posted - 2015.11.21 21:00:32 -
[311] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Harvey James wrote:Stitch Kaneland wrote:Harvey James wrote:so does using a WDFG actually prevent you from using normal disruptors or scrams? I dont think it prevents you from using standard disruptors/scrams (havent tested). When you have a scram with the same range as a linked disruptor though, why waste the mid(s)? it would allow you too scram a cynabal and just point another target until someone else could scram it, this assumes only 1 WDFG ofc, my thoughts being for such powerful abilities shouldn't a drawback be added? also on a physics point of view wouldn't this mod prevent the weaker mods field from projecting through? - limit to 1 WDFG per ship (like dictors have) - disallow normal points being usable at the same time p.s. can rep bots work when normal reps don't? You can also fit up to 6 infinite points. You'd have to sacrifice guns but if you wanted dedicated fleet tackle then I believe it is possible to run all 6 at once. The fitting requirements are not that high. That is also not including standard mid slot point and webs if you really wanted to go all out. So no idea what HandelsPharmi above was going on about. Go ahead and try fitting and running six points with propulsion module, cap booster, and tank. Then remember that remote repairs do not work when any WDFG is active (scripted or not). I didn't say that it was ideal, just that it is possible and you still have plenty of PG and CPU for fitting tank even with all your high slots full of them.
Modulated ECM Effects
An Alternative to Skill Trading
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Daemun Khanid
Sanctus Imperialis
197
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Posted - 2015.11.21 22:50:43 -
[312] - Quote
Love this change. Gives a purpose for hics in lowsec and helps combat the "RUN AWAY" meta. If you see a hic and make the decision to engage you'd better be committed. Far too many bc's running around lowsec with mjd and fit to kill/neut anything fast enough to get inside normal scram range. Its not remotely op, its a new tactical tool for fighting against risk adverse enemies thats still far too expensive for most gangs to risk in large numbers.
Daemun of Khanid
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
331
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Posted - 2015.11.21 23:28:07 -
[313] - Quote
Daemun Khanid wrote:Love this change. Gives a purpose for hics in lowsec and helps combat the "RUN AWAY" meta. If you see a hic and make the decision to engage you'd better be committed. Far too many bc's running around lowsec with mjd and fit to kill/neut anything fast enough to get inside normal scram range. Its not remotely op, its a new tactical tool for fighting against risk adverse enemies thats still far too expensive for most gangs to risk in large numbers. You must be the first person I've heard complaining about the dominance of BC's in low sec. *chuckles*
Modulated ECM Effects
An Alternative to Skill Trading
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Daemun Khanid
Sanctus Imperialis
197
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Posted - 2015.11.21 23:35:17 -
[314] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:Daemun Khanid wrote:Love this change. Gives a purpose for hics in lowsec and helps combat the "RUN AWAY" meta. If you see a hic and make the decision to engage you'd better be committed. Far too many bc's running around lowsec with mjd and fit to kill/neut anything fast enough to get inside normal scram range. Its not remotely op, its a new tactical tool for fighting against risk adverse enemies thats still far too expensive for most gangs to risk in large numbers. You must be the first person I've heard complaining about the dominance of BC's in low sec. *chuckles*
Its not dominance, its annoyance. A properly fit and flown bc can be very hard to catch without shipping into a gang specifically fit for the purpose. Lately we just ignore most bc's we see on dscan because you know he's gonna be mjd anti-frig fit. Sneaking a hic on top of them from just outside dscan range will be a nice potential counter.
Daemun of Khanid
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
331
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Posted - 2015.11.21 23:48:23 -
[315] - Quote
Daemun Khanid wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Daemun Khanid wrote:Love this change. Gives a purpose for hics in lowsec and helps combat the "RUN AWAY" meta. If you see a hic and make the decision to engage you'd better be committed. Far too many bc's running around lowsec with mjd and fit to kill/neut anything fast enough to get inside normal scram range. Its not remotely op, its a new tactical tool for fighting against risk adverse enemies thats still far too expensive for most gangs to risk in large numbers. You must be the first person I've heard complaining about the dominance of BC's in low sec. *chuckles* Its not dominance, its annoyance. A properly fit and flown bc can be very hard to catch without shipping into a gang specifically fit for the purpose (ussually with ewar.) Lately we just ignore most bc's we see on dscan because you know he's gonna be mjd anti-frig fit. Sneaking a hic on top of them from just outside dscan range will be a nice potential counter. Do you not think a BC should have some defence against a frigate gang...
Also is there any reason you can't fit a small nos on your frigate to counter his neut, and use your signature to avoid his DPS.
Also please don't tell me you fly Garmur's and are then complaining about MJDing BCs, becuase if so then no wonder they are MJDing away from risk averse garmur and kitey frigate gangs.
Modulated ECM Effects
An Alternative to Skill Trading
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Daemun Khanid
Sanctus Imperialis
197
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Posted - 2015.11.22 00:05:43 -
[316] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:Daemun Khanid wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Daemun Khanid wrote:Love this change. Gives a purpose for hics in lowsec and helps combat the "RUN AWAY" meta. If you see a hic and make the decision to engage you'd better be committed. Far too many bc's running around lowsec with mjd and fit to kill/neut anything fast enough to get inside normal scram range. Its not remotely op, its a new tactical tool for fighting against risk adverse enemies thats still far too expensive for most gangs to risk in large numbers. You must be the first person I've heard complaining about the dominance of BC's in low sec. *chuckles* Its not dominance, its annoyance. A properly fit and flown bc can be very hard to catch without shipping into a gang specifically fit for the purpose (ussually with ewar.) Lately we just ignore most bc's we see on dscan because you know he's gonna be mjd anti-frig fit. Sneaking a hic on top of them from just outside dscan range will be a nice potential counter. So you are flying in frigate gangs and you complain that BCs are an annoyance. Why should a BC not have some defence against a frigate gang. And it is relatively easy to counter that defence, fit a small nos to counter his neut, and use your signature to avoid his DPS. Unless you are complaining that your kitey frigate gang cannot engage him risk free with a long point without him MJDing away, in which case I have even less sympathy. Is this thread about hics or is it just a place for you to try and argue something you clearly dont have a clue about.
Daemun of Khanid
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
331
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Posted - 2015.11.22 00:22:47 -
[317] - Quote
Daemun Khanid wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Daemun Khanid wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Daemun Khanid wrote:Love this change. Gives a purpose for hics in lowsec and helps combat the "RUN AWAY" meta. If you see a hic and make the decision to engage you'd better be committed. Far too many bc's running around lowsec with mjd and fit to kill/neut anything fast enough to get inside normal scram range. Its not remotely op, its a new tactical tool for fighting against risk adverse enemies thats still far too expensive for most gangs to risk in large numbers. You must be the first person I've heard complaining about the dominance of BC's in low sec. *chuckles* Its not dominance, its annoyance. A properly fit and flown bc can be very hard to catch without shipping into a gang specifically fit for the purpose (ussually with ewar.) Lately we just ignore most bc's we see on dscan because you know he's gonna be mjd anti-frig fit. Sneaking a hic on top of them from just outside dscan range will be a nice potential counter. So you are flying in frigate gangs and you complain that BCs are an annoyance. Why should a BC not have some defence against a frigate gang. And it is relatively easy to counter that defence, fit a small nos to counter his neut, and use your signature to avoid his DPS. Unless you are complaining that your kitey frigate gang cannot engage him risk free with a long point without him MJDing away, in which case I have even less sympathy. Is this thread about hics or is it just a place for you to try and argue something you clearly dont have a clue about. I and many others are simply pointing out that the HIC long point adversely affects the BC and BS meta. I do find it somewhat ironic that someone who flys frigate gangs (dominant in the current meta) is struggling against BCs. I've just pointed out how to counter BCs in my above post, I suggest instead of attacking me you take note unless you wish to continue struggling against BCs.
Modulated ECM Effects
An Alternative to Skill Trading
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Daemun Khanid
Sanctus Imperialis
197
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Posted - 2015.11.22 00:37:22 -
[318] - Quote
Your counters are misguided. If it were that easy it wouldnt be an issue and your still missing the point. Its not about struggling its about a class/fit that needs a more appropriate counter. Hics are designed to catch things. This change makes them viable at doing so in lowsec. Back on the subject of the actual thread, anything that forces ppl to actually stay and fight is a good thing.
Daemun of Khanid
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
331
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Posted - 2015.11.22 00:42:35 -
[319] - Quote
Daemun Khanid wrote:Your counters are misguided. If it were that easy it wouldnt be an issue and your still missing the point. Its not about struggling its about a class/fit that needs a more appropriate counter. Hics are designed to catch things. This change makes them viable at doing so in lowsec. Back on the subject of the actual thread, anything that forces ppl to actually stay and fight is a good thing. My counters are tried and tested, and I never said it was easy but then it shouldn't be fighting a BC in a frigate. But no matter, I am happy if you overlook this as it means more easy targets who don't fully understand the PvP mechanics.
But anyway to the point of the thread, as for forcing people to stay and fight, what will actually happen as pointed out and as evidenced from tests on Singularity is that the HIC will kite you at range relatively risk free until either he kills you or backup arrives.
Modulated ECM Effects
An Alternative to Skill Trading
|
Daemun Khanid
Sanctus Imperialis
197
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Posted - 2015.11.22 01:11:46 -
[320] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:Daemun Khanid wrote:Your counters are misguided. If it were that easy it wouldnt be an issue and your still missing the point. Its not about struggling its about a class/fit that needs a more appropriate counter. Hics are designed to catch things. This change makes them viable at doing so in lowsec. Back on the subject of the actual thread, anything that forces ppl to actually stay and fight is a good thing. My counters are tried and tested, and I never said it was easy, but then it shouldn't be fighting a BC in a frigate. But no matter, I am happy if you overlook this as it means more easy targets who don't fully understand the PvP mechanics. But anyway to the point of the thread, as for forcing people to stay and fight, what will actually happen as pointed out and as evidenced from tests on Singularity is that the HIC will kite you at range relatively risk free until either he kills you or backup arrives. Then your counters are tried and tested against poorly fitted bc's for the job. Keeping you held down until others can get on target is kinda the point. Interceptors, interdictors and hics all serve that specific purpose.
Daemun of Khanid
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
331
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Posted - 2015.11.22 01:29:18 -
[321] - Quote
Daemun Khanid wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Daemun Khanid wrote:Your counters are misguided. If it were that easy it wouldnt be an issue and your still missing the point. Its not about struggling its about a class/fit that needs a more appropriate counter. Hics are designed to catch things. This change makes them viable at doing so in lowsec. Back on the subject of the actual thread, anything that forces ppl to actually stay and fight is a good thing. My counters are tried and tested, and I never said it was easy, but then it shouldn't be fighting a BC in a frigate. But no matter, I am happy if you overlook this as it means more easy targets who don't fully understand the PvP mechanics. But anyway to the point of the thread, as for forcing people to stay and fight, what will actually happen as pointed out and as evidenced from tests on Singularity is that the HIC will kite you at range relatively risk free until either he kills you or backup arrives. Then your counters are tried and tested against poorly fitted bc's for the job. Keeping you held down until others can get on target is kinda the point. Interceptors, interdictors and hics all serve that specific purpose. I'll just say that a single svipul can very easily single handedly hold down any BC if you know what you are doing, the only real problem will be ECM. The same logic can easily be applied to a standard frigate although it is more risky. Like I said, BCs are very weak against smaller ships in the current meta. It is against cruisers and above where they start to become more useful.
Modulated ECM Effects
An Alternative to Skill Trading
|
FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1959
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Posted - 2015.11.22 01:34:34 -
[322] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:Daemun Khanid wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Daemun Khanid wrote:Your counters are misguided. If it were that easy it wouldnt be an issue and your still missing the point. Its not about struggling its about a class/fit that needs a more appropriate counter. Hics are designed to catch things. This change makes them viable at doing so in lowsec. Back on the subject of the actual thread, anything that forces ppl to actually stay and fight is a good thing. My counters are tried and tested, and I never said it was easy, but then it shouldn't be fighting a BC in a frigate. But no matter, I am happy if you overlook this as it means more easy targets who don't fully understand the PvP mechanics. But anyway to the point of the thread, as for forcing people to stay and fight, what will actually happen as pointed out and as evidenced from tests on Singularity is that the HIC will kite you at range relatively risk free until either he kills you or backup arrives. Then your counters are tried and tested against poorly fitted bc's for the job. Keeping you held down until others can get on target is kinda the point. Interceptors, interdictors and hics all serve that specific purpose. I'll just say that a single svipul can very easily single handedly hold down any BC if you know what you are doing, the only real problem will be ECM. The same logic can easily be applied to a standard frigate although it is more risky. Like I said, BCs are very weak against smaller ships in the current meta. It is against cruisers and above where they start to become more useful.
As it should be...
CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
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Daemun Khanid
Sanctus Imperialis
199
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Posted - 2015.11.22 01:39:31 -
[323] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:Daemun Khanid wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Daemun Khanid wrote:Your counters are misguided. If it were that easy it wouldnt be an issue and your still missing the point. Its not about struggling its about a class/fit that needs a more appropriate counter. Hics are designed to catch things. This change makes them viable at doing so in lowsec. Back on the subject of the actual thread, anything that forces ppl to actually stay and fight is a good thing. My counters are tried and tested, and I never said it was easy, but then it shouldn't be fighting a BC in a frigate. But no matter, I am happy if you overlook this as it means more easy targets who don't fully understand the PvP mechanics. But anyway to the point of the thread, as for forcing people to stay and fight, what will actually happen as pointed out and as evidenced from tests on Singularity is that the HIC will kite you at range relatively risk free until either he kills you or backup arrives. Then your counters are tried and tested against poorly fitted bc's for the job. Keeping you held down until others can get on target is kinda the point. Interceptors, interdictors and hics all serve that specific purpose. I'll just say that a single svipul can very easily single handedly hold down any BC if you know what you are doing, the only real problem will be ECM. The same logic can easily be applied to a standard frigate although it is more risky. Like I said, BCs are very weak against smaller ships in the current meta. It is against cruisers and above where they start to become more useful. A single svipul in scram range will be double neuted, double webbed and dead or if its a 10mn fit will be forced off grid if it can do so before it hits zero cap. Just ask ole stitch there, he's been posting in this thread and enjoys flying bc's in lowsec to great effectiveness. In fact i have an onyx sitting in hanger that I mistakenly fit out months ago specifically to catch his bc's before realizing that the scripted disruptor doesnt shut down mjd's.
Just to reiterate, I'm not talking about standard fleet fit bc's. I'm talking about fits that are very specifically setup to blap the crap out of targets of opportunity and escape with little risk of getting held down long enough to die.
Daemun of Khanid
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
331
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Posted - 2015.11.22 01:59:37 -
[324] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:Moac Tor wrote:I'll just say that a single svipul can very easily single handedly hold down any BC if you know what you are doing, the only real problem will be ECM. The same logic can easily be applied to a standard frigate although it is more risky. Like I said, BCs are very weak against smaller ships in the current meta. It is against cruisers and above where they start to become more useful. As it should be... Exactly, I've got no problem with frigates and smaller ships being strong against BCs in the current meta, because BCs excel against cruisers and above. They slot into place quite nicely at the moment.
Daemun Khanid wrote:A single svipul in scram range will be double neuted, double webbed and dead or if its a 10mn fit will be forced off grid if it can do so before it hits zero cap. Just ask ole stitch there, he's been posting in this thread and enjoys flying bc's in lowsec to great effectiveness. In fact i have an onyx sitting in hanger that I mistakenly fit out months ago specifically to catch his bc's before realizing that the scripted disruptor doesnt shut down mjd's.
If your specifically gearing a BC to fight frigates your gimping your fit, they don't have many native strengths against smaller ships and can very easily be pinned down. Sure you can get a semi effective anti frigate BC, like everything else in eve if you gimp your fit you can make it good at one specific task, although it is going to suck against everything else and still won't be the best ship for the job vs frigates either.
On the other hand you could be complaining about navy BCs which are slightly more geared towards damage application vs smaller targets, but that is a trait of the navy line which I think most people are happy with.
Modulated ECM Effects
An Alternative to Skill Trading
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Daemun Khanid
Sanctus Imperialis
199
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Posted - 2015.11.22 02:07:00 -
[325] - Quote
You simply seem to fail to grasp the entire point and dont have experience with slippery fits. A fit isnt gimped when its doing precisely what its meant to do. I presume you are an alt because if you are even remotely trying to weigh in on the matter w 14 kills to your name your opinion certainly doesnt count for much.
Daemun of Khanid
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
331
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Posted - 2015.11.22 02:26:27 -
[326] - Quote
Daemun Khanid wrote:You simply seem to fail to grasp the entire point and dont have experience with slippery fits. A fit isnt gimped when its doing precisely what its meant to do. I have actually fought and killed plenty of slippery fits, I wouldn't consider any BC to be very slippery.
Try fighting a phantasm or nano nightmare with defensive webs and scram, or T3 with fuel catalyst and oversized AB and you'll see what a proper slippery fit is. BCs are one of the least capable classes of ship to be able to fit as you suggest. They don't get that much benefit from an oversized AB, and are natively slow, and generally lack midslots to fit defensive web and scrams especially if you fit MJD.
Yes those fits are tough to fight, but there are plenty of counters, and that method of fighting is hardly limited to BCs, in fact BCs are particularly bad at it.
Modulated ECM Effects
An Alternative to Skill Trading
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Daemun Khanid
Sanctus Imperialis
199
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Posted - 2015.11.22 02:35:22 -
[327] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:Daemun Khanid wrote:You simply seem to fail to grasp the entire point and dont have experience with slippery fits. A fit isnt gimped when its doing precisely what its meant to do. I have actually fought and killed plenty of slippery fits, I wouldn't consider any BC to be very slippery. Try fighting a phantasm or nano nightmare with defensive webs and scram, or T3 with fuel catalyst and oversized AB and you'll see what a proper slippery fit is. BCs are one of the least capable classes of ship to be able to fit as you suggest. They don't get that much benefit from an oversized AB, and are natively slow, and generally lack midslots to fit defensive web and scrams especially if you fit MJD. Yes those fits are tough to fight, but there are plenty of counters, and that method of fighting is hardly limited to BCs, in fact BCs are particularly bad at it.
And a bc will achieve the same thing at a tiny fraction of the cost. A ship that can apply 700 dps to anything in web range (frigs included) and mjd out as soon as anything threatening lands on grid are a pita. Oversided abs are used on some fits but for the most part its just about letting your target come to you, nuking them off the field then hitting the mjd and jumping to a safe.
Daemun of Khanid
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Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
652
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Posted - 2015.11.22 12:48:32 -
[328] - Quote
Daemun Khanid wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Daemun Khanid wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Daemun Khanid wrote:Your counters are misguided. If it were that easy it wouldnt be an issue and your still missing the point. Its not about struggling its about a class/fit that needs a more appropriate counter. Hics are designed to catch things. This change makes them viable at doing so in lowsec. Back on the subject of the actual thread, anything that forces ppl to actually stay and fight is a good thing. My counters are tried and tested, and I never said it was easy, but then it shouldn't be fighting a BC in a frigate. But no matter, I am happy if you overlook this as it means more easy targets who don't fully understand the PvP mechanics. But anyway to the point of the thread, as for forcing people to stay and fight, what will actually happen as pointed out and as evidenced from tests on Singularity is that the HIC will kite you at range relatively risk free until either he kills you or backup arrives. Then your counters are tried and tested against poorly fitted bc's for the job. Keeping you held down until others can get on target is kinda the point. Interceptors, interdictors and hics all serve that specific purpose. I'll just say that a single svipul can very easily single handedly hold down any BC if you know what you are doing, the only real problem will be ECM. The same logic can easily be applied to a standard frigate although it is more risky. Like I said, BCs are very weak against smaller ships in the current meta. It is against cruisers and above where they start to become more useful. A single svipul in scram range will be double neuted, double webbed and dead or if its a 10mn fit will be forced off grid if it can do so before it hits zero cap. Just ask ole stitch there, he's been posting in this thread and enjoys flying bc's in lowsec to great effectiveness. In fact i have an onyx sitting in hanger that I mistakenly fit out months ago specifically to catch his bc's before realizing that the scripted disruptor doesnt shut down mjd's. Just to reiterate, I'm not talking about standard fleet fit bc's. I'm talking about fits that are very specifically setup to blap the crap out of targets of opportunity and escape with little risk of getting held down long enough to die. Stealth bombers, stabbed dessis and slippery fit bc's are the norm for mission runners and plex farmers in fw and anything that will make catching them easier is a +1 in my book.
My fits were designed to counter your frig gangs that were risk averse and just wanted to kite. I was forcing you to commit to me, by coming in to scram. You had options available to counter this, but insisted of bringing more disruptors than scrams. You could counter me a number of ways, and in fact did. Neuts, being the biggest counter because most of those fits had no cap boosters.
You could have brought an arazu with a scram, but instead i'd get lach's with a point. You in fact quite frequently would bring out a rook to counter my lone unlinked BC with your gang of 10 guys or more (which occasionally had links). I would then bring out my fleet phoon with over 80 SS to counter your rook.
Those fits i made specifically for survival in lowsec against the blob. This was the era of almost every gang in LS having a garmur/orthrus. There is no countering or slingshotting a garmur/orthrus when you're in a BC, so MJD was the only viable counter so i could kill a couple scram tackle and leave.
Sorry, if i didn't just sit there and let you kill me. The tools were available to counter me, but your corp insisted on bringing more and more things with points or kitey ships like nomens. So, i find it ironic that you're saying my fits were risk averse, when they were fit specifically with countering your risk averse gangs that were all kitey frigs/cruisers with 1 or 2 scram tackle thrown in. Its not my fault your gang did not bring more hard tackle.
The other reason I made those fits, is they would still survive against linked ships. You and me both know that there are tons of people in LS using links on everything. Hell i just fought a linked comet the last time i was in LS. The MJD/AB BC's i made were a direct counter to those people, and the best i could manage without myself getting links.
Now, i'm not horribly opposed to the HIC change, except for the fact they will be on every gate camp, and there is no escaping that. Sure, one lands on field, OK, time to make sure i don't get within 40km of you. I warp through a gate with 1 on the other side, well i'm boned. Can't MJD, can't MWD, if i had an AB i'd just get blobbed by the rest of the gang. I would expect dead terrorists to start fielding these immediately once their released. So i guess have fun dealing with their camps in that area.
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
331
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Posted - 2015.11.22 14:06:03 -
[329] - Quote
Stitch Kaneland wrote:My fits were designed to counter your frig gangs that were risk averse and just wanted to kite. I was forcing you to commit to me, by coming in to scram. But a BC should not have any options and should be forced to just sit their and get pinned by a 10 man risk averse frigate gang... Well luckily now they can if they bring a HIC.
No more MJDing BCs that force an opponent to come into scram range, and no more epic solo battleship videos from the likes of skilled pilots such as Big Miker and others.
Normality resumed and and we can get back to the relaxing and unskilled business of risk averse long range kitey gangs.
Modulated ECM Effects
An Alternative to Skill Trading
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Daemun Khanid
Sanctus Imperialis
200
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Posted - 2015.11.23 00:03:28 -
[330] - Quote
Don't get me wrong stitch, it wasnt an insult. I was just noting that you used the slippery bc's to great effectiveness. As for our fits against you we always tried to bring scrams because we knew you had mjd, you just ussually killed the tackle before we could get the dps on field. Thats when I started bringing the ecm to keep the tackle safe. I have to say though we never have gangs of 10. I wish we did. More commonly we fly 4-5 and none of us have links. I'm also the only person in the group I fly with that flies ships other than Amarr. All my fleet mates are PIE loyalists and have strict rules about only flying golden fleet. I'm sure you dealt w ppl that did, but it wasnt us. Nothing but respect, at least you come looking for fights.
Daemun of Khanid
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