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Silver Dagger Kondur
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
44
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Posted - 2015.11.05 22:36:29 -
[1] - Quote
Greets!
Say one wants to PVP But Say one also wants to train skills a little more rapidly.
So, one buys level 5 implants for perception, will, etc. but PVPs in a jump clone with no implants or maybe level 2 or 3.
So... how does one both train rapidly and PVP? After all, you will be podded sooner or later, and one does not want to be buying a set of level 5 implants every few minutes or days. |
Aeniec
Akheteru Integrated Astrometrics Hedonistic Imperative
8
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Posted - 2015.11.05 22:48:33 -
[2] - Quote
+4s are only like 80 mil for implants 1-4. |
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
1140
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Posted - 2015.11.06 05:03:04 -
[3] - Quote
I would generally buy just the two +4 implants I am currently training. If I ever lose a pod with more than two, it means I haven't got caught in a LONG time. Then keep a +5 guy that you jump to when the fighting is over. Train the info-morph skills so you can jump in less than 24 hours and jump back every other day.
Never fly less than +3s. They are so cheap. |
Cidanel Afuran
Static-Noise Upholders
399
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Posted - 2015.11.06 20:35:40 -
[4] - Quote
If you stick to high/lowsec, you really don't have much of an excuse to ever lose a pod |
Sheeth Athonille
Rabid Dogz Mining Void..
46
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Posted - 2015.11.07 00:14:55 -
[5] - Quote
Yeah stay out of null and it's usually pretty safe to run +4's or +5's (start aligning and spamming warp as you're about to lose your ship). If I'm in a wh or null then I'll usually use +3's since they are so cheap. |
Silver Dagger Kondur
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
44
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Posted - 2015.11.07 00:34:21 -
[6] - Quote
Thanks, everyone for the answers! |
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
34934
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Posted - 2015.11.08 06:15:30 -
[7] - Quote
Cidanel Afuran wrote:If you stick to high/lowsec, you really don't have much of an excuse to ever lose a pod
Svipuls can lock your pod before it warps. And that's not taking the cheeky smartbombers into account either. Just axe attribute implants. I mean, why should I risk 40m pod to fly a frigate? etc. etc. rehash arguements to remove clone upgrades.
Why do bad threads happen to good people?
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Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
240
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Posted - 2015.11.08 07:15:50 -
[8] - Quote
Ria Nieyli wrote:Cidanel Afuran wrote:If you stick to high/lowsec, you really don't have much of an excuse to ever lose a pod Svipuls can lock your pod before it warps. And that's not taking the cheeky smartbombers into account either. Just axe attribute implants. I mean, why should I risk 40m pod to fly a frigate? etc. etc. rehash arguements to remove clone upgrades.
clone upgrades wasn't a choice. it was pay or lose sp.
why should you risk a 40 mil pod in a frig? you don't have to if you don't want to that's the beauty of it, if you do then you are training a little faster.
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Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
34934
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Posted - 2015.11.08 08:05:37 -
[9] - Quote
Lady Rift wrote:Ria Nieyli wrote:Cidanel Afuran wrote:If you stick to high/lowsec, you really don't have much of an excuse to ever lose a pod Svipuls can lock your pod before it warps. And that's not taking the cheeky smartbombers into account either. Just axe attribute implants. I mean, why should I risk 40m pod to fly a frigate? etc. etc. rehash arguements to remove clone upgrades. clone upgrades wasn't a choice. it was pay or lose sp. why should you risk a 40 mil pod in a frig? you don't have to if you don't want to that's the beauty of it, if you do then you are training a little faster.
Well, I either pay for implants or lose SP by not having them. Not really a choice either.
Why do bad threads happen to good people?
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Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
241
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Posted - 2015.11.08 21:30:19 -
[10] - Quote
Ria Nieyli wrote:Lady Rift wrote:Ria Nieyli wrote:Cidanel Afuran wrote:If you stick to high/lowsec, you really don't have much of an excuse to ever lose a pod Svipuls can lock your pod before it warps. And that's not taking the cheeky smartbombers into account either. Just axe attribute implants. I mean, why should I risk 40m pod to fly a frigate? etc. etc. rehash arguements to remove clone upgrades. clone upgrades wasn't a choice. it was pay or lose sp. why should you risk a 40 mil pod in a frig? you don't have to if you don't want to that's the beauty of it, if you do then you are training a little faster. Well, I either pay for implants or lose SP by not having them. Not really a choice either.
you dont lose sp.
losing sp is going from hac 5 to hac 4. from 35 million sp to 34.5 million sp.
Edit: if you are going to believe you are losing sp by not using implants than its 200 mil you are risking not 40 cause under your train of thought you need +5's all the time. not +4's |
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Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
34940
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Posted - 2015.11.09 11:11:57 -
[11] - Quote
Lady Rift wrote:Ria Nieyli wrote:Lady Rift wrote:Ria Nieyli wrote:Cidanel Afuran wrote:If you stick to high/lowsec, you really don't have much of an excuse to ever lose a pod Svipuls can lock your pod before it warps. And that's not taking the cheeky smartbombers into account either. Just axe attribute implants. I mean, why should I risk 40m pod to fly a frigate? etc. etc. rehash arguements to remove clone upgrades. clone upgrades wasn't a choice. it was pay or lose sp. why should you risk a 40 mil pod in a frig? you don't have to if you don't want to that's the beauty of it, if you do then you are training a little faster. Well, I either pay for implants or lose SP by not having them. Not really a choice either. you dont lose sp. losing sp is going from hac 5 to hac 4. from 35 million sp to 34.5 million sp. Edit: if you are going to believe you are losing sp by not using implants than its 200 mil you are risking not 40 cause under your train of thought you need +5's all the time. not +4's
If I spend a CCP year in a +4 clone vs spend a CCP year in a +5 clone, I would have 1,555,200 SP less.
And your edit makes the problem even more evident. Axe attribute implants, they're just bad gameplay.
Why do bad threads happen to good people?
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Anize Oramara
The Arch Dashing Dashers
535
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Posted - 2015.11.09 12:47:22 -
[12] - Quote
It adds risk vs reward, it adds choice, it adds depth. I also have to decide if the advantage of ascendancy implants are worth running +3s instead of +5s.
A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier
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Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
34943
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Posted - 2015.11.09 12:52:53 -
[13] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:It adds risk vs reward, it adds choice, it adds depth. I also have to decide if the advantage of ascendancy implants are worth running +3s instead of +5s.
None of the above. Not running attribute implants is about as much of a choice as not upgrading your clone was. Every arguement that could be made against the clone upgrade system can be made against attribute implants, word for word.
Why do bad threads happen to good people?
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Anize Oramara
The Arch Dashing Dashers
535
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Posted - 2015.11.09 13:10:55 -
[14] - Quote
Reward: More SP/Faster training Risk: Getting podded and losing the implants.
In some areas of space you are more likely to get podded thus the risk is increased. You have to make a choice if the reward you get is worth the increased risk. You can even decided on the amount of isk you want to risk and that dictates the amount of reward you get. There is choice, there is weighing of risk vs reward. With the SP loss for not upgrading your pod there was no reward, just risk. "Not losing SP" is not a reward so not upgrading your pod was simply an isk sink. You either kept your pod upgraded or you forgot to upgrade your pod, there was no choice in the matter.
Even looking at the choice between +5s and +3 Ascendencies. With the ascendancies I warp faster, thus I can make more isk, but the price i pay for it is slower SP progression over running +5s. Again, choice, depth. If I have a lot of free time I don't have to worry about isk as I can just run more missions, that way I can get maximum SP. If I have less time available I want to maximise my isk potential at the cost of training speed.
Before someone makes the argument based on training skills, that also was never about choice. You either trained learning skills or you were at a disadvantage for absolutely no reward.
A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier
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Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1808
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Posted - 2015.11.09 13:41:18 -
[15] - Quote
Ria Nieyli wrote:Cidanel Afuran wrote:If you stick to high/lowsec, you really don't have much of an excuse to ever lose a pod Svipuls can lock your pod before it warps. And that's not taking the cheeky smartbombers into account either. Just axe attribute implants. I mean, why should I risk 40m pod to fly a frigate? etc. etc. rehash arguements to remove clone upgrades.
why should you risk a 40mil pod? isnt that your choice? you have jumpclones if you are scared to lose a 40mil pod, try losing a slave set in a frigate
Recruiting V I R I I Small Gang Nullsec PVP
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
34947
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Posted - 2015.11.09 13:42:51 -
[16] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Reward: More SP/Faster training Risk: Getting podded and losing the implants.
In some areas of space you are more likely to get podded thus the risk is increased. You have to make a choice if the reward you get is worth the increased risk. You can even decided on the amount of isk you want to risk and that dictates the amount of reward you get. There is choice, there is weighing of risk vs reward. With the SP loss for not upgrading your pod there was no reward, just risk. "Not losing SP" is not a reward so not upgrading your pod was simply an isk sink. You either kept your pod upgraded or you forgot to upgrade your pod, there was no choice in the matter.
Even looking at the choice between +5s and +3 Ascendencies. With the ascendancies I warp faster, thus I can make more isk, but the price i pay for it is slower SP progression over running +5s. Again, choice, depth. If I have a lot of free time I don't have to worry about isk as I can just run more missions, that way I can get maximum SP. If I have less time available I want to maximise my isk potential at the cost of training speed.
Before someone makes the argument based on training skills, that also was never about choice. You either trained learning skills or you were at a disadvantage for absolutely no reward.
Extreme case: if you do not plug in any training implants you lose about 1/4 of the SP training over the year.
Your example with the higher ISK efficiency with the ascendancies is a very bad one, since SP is time based, and if you do not get the maximum now, you're never ever getting it back. On the other hand, you have a myriad of ways to make ISK for yourself, some more effective, others not. So, to summarise, it's mechanically better to have two +5 implants for your current remap than it is to have an Ascendancy set.
Lan Wang wrote:Ria Nieyli wrote:Cidanel Afuran wrote:If you stick to high/lowsec, you really don't have much of an excuse to ever lose a pod Svipuls can lock your pod before it warps. And that's not taking the cheeky smartbombers into account either. Just axe attribute implants. I mean, why should I risk 40m pod to fly a frigate? etc. etc. rehash arguements to remove clone upgrades. why should you risk a 40mil pod? isnt that your choice? you have jumpclones if you are scared to lose a 40mil pod, try losing a slave set in a frigate
That's the whole point, it's not a choice. |
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
1142
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Posted - 2015.11.09 15:59:03 -
[17] - Quote
The game gives every player a base training speed. It's equal across the board for every paid subscription. Then the game gives you options to increase that speed. Each player gets to make his own decision on those options, and decide for himself how important the risk vs reward is. This option is also equal across the board for every paid subscription. Fast training time is not an entitlement, nor is it mandatory to play EVE. But it is an "option" |
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
34960
|
Posted - 2015.11.09 16:55:25 -
[18] - Quote
RavenPaine wrote:The game gives every player a base training speed. It's equal across the board for every paid subscription. Then the game gives you options to increase that speed. Each player gets to make his own decision on those options, and decide for himself how important the risk vs reward is. This option is also equal across the board for every paid subscription. Fast training time is not an entitlement, nor is it mandatory to play EVE. But it is an "option"
Training skills were optional too and they got removed. There's really no good arguement for keeping attribute implants. |
Sheeth Athonille
Rabid Dogz Mining Void..
50
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Posted - 2015.11.09 22:42:25 -
[19] - Quote
Ria Nieyli wrote:RavenPaine wrote:The game gives every player a base training speed. It's equal across the board for every paid subscription. Then the game gives you options to increase that speed. Each player gets to make his own decision on those options, and decide for himself how important the risk vs reward is. This option is also equal across the board for every paid subscription. Fast training time is not an entitlement, nor is it mandatory to play EVE. But it is an "option" Training skills were optional too and they got removed. There's really no good arguement for keeping attribute implants.
Correction, there are plenty of good arguments for keeping attribute implants, just none that you will agree with. Everything everyone else has said is valid, you just don't accept the for whatever reason. That's fine, but don't claim there are no good reasons. |
Anize Oramara
The Arch Dashing Dashers
538
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Posted - 2015.11.10 06:15:01 -
[20] - Quote
People eventually run out of things to train that they want, need or even can use.
A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier
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Mephiztopheleze
Republic University Minmatar Republic
307
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Posted - 2015.11.10 06:36:12 -
[21] - Quote
Silver Dagger Kondur wrote: So, one buys level 5 implants for perception, will, etc. but PVPs in a jump clone with no implants or maybe level 2 or 3.
So... how does one both train rapidly and PVP? After all, you will be podded sooner or later, and one does not want to be buying a set of level 5 implants every few minutes or days.
Use Pirate implants?
High Grades function as +4s, mids as +3 along with sweet, sweet bonuses to some aspect of your ship.
Snakes, in particular, are popular for a reason.
Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze
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Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
34977
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Posted - 2015.11.10 09:50:19 -
[22] - Quote
Sheeth Athonille wrote:Correction, there are plenty of good arguments for keeping attribute implants, just none that you will agree with. Everything everyone else has said is valid, you just don't accept the for whatever reason. That's fine, but don't claim there are no good reasons.
Then make those good arguements. Historically, we have a precedent of removed learning skills and then clone upgrades for the same reasons that I attirbute implants should be removed. There really is no good arguement to keep them.
Anize Oramara wrote:People eventually run out of things to train that they want, need or even can use.
You're citing endgame. People get hurt the most by no/low-qualtiy implants during their first 6-12 months, which are critical. Not to mention that the community at large tells them to remap PER=INT and not to use their remaps because they'll need them later... |
Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
204
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Posted - 2015.11.10 16:10:21 -
[23] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:It adds risk vs reward, it adds choice, it adds depth. I also have to decide if the advantage of ascendancy implants are worth running +3s instead of +5s.
It adds risk, it doesn't add much depth.
It also means that those in high-sec can train quicker than those that PvP a lot. Why should that be the case?
What needs to happen is the removal of attributes and in doing so the removal of attribute implants with an increase in the standard rate of training to compensate for their removal.
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Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1809
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Posted - 2015.11.10 16:44:48 -
[24] - Quote
implants = training times, great at training a char for pve things but lack any sort of pvp skill because he doesnt want to lose his shiney pod
no implants = great at pvp and can fly what he needs and doesnt care about training speed, because who cares about sp when your having fun blowing stuff up
Recruiting V I R I I Small Gang Nullsec PVP
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
34980
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Posted - 2015.11.10 17:07:19 -
[25] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:implants = training times, great at training a char for pve things but lack any sort of pvp skill because he doesnt want to lose his shiney pod
no implants = great at pvp and can fly what he needs and doesnt care about training speed, because who cares about sp when your having fun blowing stuff up
Protip, a mid-grade Snake set costs more than a +5 learning implant one. You just ousted yourself as being clueless. Moreover, your post was uncalled for, but I guess you can't help but feel attacked because people like to not lose 1/4 of their possible SP, which directly limits what you can fly. Whether you're a pretentious **** or a salty malcontent, I can't say. |
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
1144
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Posted - 2015.11.10 18:55:18 -
[26] - Quote
There is an ongoing complaint that newbs can NEVER catch up to veteran players. Implants give players an option to close the gap, or catch up, or even pass a player that is catchable.
I'm an advocate that SP does not = fun, so that whole theory of "need more SP to have fun" is something I disagree with. BUT: I do like the possibility that I can train faster when I want to. And I suspect that most players will like it also.
The alternative means that , subscription member #1,394,123 will always be ranked as the 1,394,123rd best player in the game. He would have no chance to improve his ranking.
Implants should be a selling point imo. A tool to improve your character is always a popular gaming commodity. |
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
34993
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 21:48:13 -
[27] - Quote
RavenPaine wrote:There is an ongoing complaint that newbs can NEVER catch up to veteran players. Implants give players an option to close the gap, or catch up, or even pass a player that is catchable.
I'm an advocate that SP does not = fun, so that whole theory of "need more SP to have fun" is something I disagree with. BUT: I do like the possibility that I can train faster when I want to. And I suspect that most players will like it also.
The alternative means that , subscription member #1,394,123 will always be ranked as the 1,394,123rd best player in the game. He would have no chance to improve his ranking.
Implants should be a selling point imo. A tool to improve your character is always a popular gaming commodity.
Er. That's not what I'm saying at all. I mean, when I went into FW I had frig skill at 3, 200k SP in Navigation, barely able to use T2 guns with gunnery supports at 3/4, etc. etc. but I was still able to kill people in fights. The SP entry level that you can be doing things alone is very low, you just have to find what those things are. If you're in a corp/alliance, you can get going on Day 1. That's not what the arguement is about and it does not change the fact that you lose SP by not having implants. |
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
1145
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Posted - 2015.11.11 02:03:51 -
[28] - Quote
You are not LOSEING skill points, by flying with no implants. You are CHOOSING to train at base speed with less risk of loss.
You could choose to not use hardwiring too, but you would lose ROF, power grid, speed or some other benefit. You could chose not to use boosters but if your opponent uses them, he will have an advantage. You could choose to use T1 ammo, but.... etc. etc.
Nobody HAS to use implants. It's a choice they make. Doing away with them limits a players choices, but more important, it limits his ability to progress at a faster rate.
For me, I have been in thousands of fights. I lost some nice implants, and even some skill points when I forgot to upgrade a clone once. Most times, the loss was actually due to a small (or big) mistake that was MY FAULT. I know the pain well of lost implants. But I still plug them in because SP is a fun part of the game for me. I'll always want the option.
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Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
35043
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Posted - 2015.11.11 09:44:24 -
[29] - Quote
RavenPaine wrote:You are not LOSEING skill points, by flying with no implants.
Yes, you are. After an year you'll have demonstrably less SP than someone who has used implants.
RavenPaine wrote:Nobody HAS to use implants. It's a choice they make. Doing away with them limits a players choices, but more important, it limits his ability to progress at a faster rate. But I still plug them in because SP is a fun part of the game for me.
Nobody choses to train slower. Not even you.
Doing away with implants won't limit people's ability to progress faster. It's already limited to 2700 SP/hour as it is. It'll merely bring up the floor. Besides, it will open up new choices for people since they don't have to pick between SP and using a pirate implant set, for example.
Oh, and by the way, when skill packets hit the market, not using +5 implants will be a direct ISK loss.
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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
206
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Posted - 2015.11.11 10:17:23 -
[30] - Quote
RavenPaine wrote:There is an ongoing complaint that newbs can NEVER catch up to veteran players. Implants give players an option to close the gap, or catch up, or even pass a player that is catchable.
I'm an advocate that SP does not = fun, so that whole theory of "need more SP to have fun" is something I disagree with. BUT: I do like the possibility that I can train faster when I want to. And I suspect that most players will like it also.
The alternative means that , subscription member #1,394,123 will always be ranked as the 1,394,123rd best player in the game. He would have no chance to improve his ranking.
Implants should be a selling point imo. A tool to improve your character is always a popular gaming commodity.
Newbs don't need to catch up as such.
Sometime ago 50 million was deemed to be the point at which you would be more effective (I'm sure that's not how they worded it). But anyway, I'll call 50 million sp the sweet spot.
Most below that sweet spot will consider it important to train as fast as possible to reach that sweet spot. After you get to that point it's not so important. Which is why I think a lot of vets don't see it as been that important, because they passed that sweet spot ages ago.
Attributes really do need to go, because they force new players into training in one direction based on which attributes they have set as priority. Also attribute implants being expensive to new players mean they're reluctant to want to lose them or the training speed they offer.
The problem with attributes and attribute implants is that all the negative aspects of them effect more those that are below that sweet spot.
In short attributes and attribute implants are not good for this game.
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