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Boozbaz
Brutor Clan
20
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Posted - 2015.11.07 04:26:19 -
[1] - Quote
I'm going to do some work in EFT and test out the DPS I get with RHML and Cruise missiles against ships with similar sig radii and velocities as you can typically expect in L4 missions.
I'm going to test the DPS with, and without target painters and webs, to see which missile platform performs the best.
I plan to ignore torpedos, because torpedos seem to be best used on larger ships, and L4 missions have a lot of ships that are smaller than battleships.
After doing all this with the Typhoon, I plan to do it again, with the Typhoon Fleet Issue.
However, before I get to work, I wanted to post here on the forums and ask you guys/gals -> RHML or Cruise for Typhoon on L4 missions? (or Typhoon Fleet Issue) |
Boozbaz
Brutor Clan
20
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Posted - 2015.11.07 05:02:14 -
[2] - Quote
Welp, here's the graphs.
The Green Line is the RHML (and a pretty good Tom Hanks Movie - *ba*dum*tsh*) The Blue Line is the Cruise Missile Launcher The Red Line is the Torpedo Launcher.
At 10km, the DPS drops a lot, because that's the range of the web. At 45km, the DPS drops again, because that's the range of the Target Painter.
This is the DPS against a Cruiser with a sig radius of 130, and a velocity of 346. These numbers were meant to be similar to an Imperial Navy Maller: http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/item.php?type_id=15322
http://i.imgur.com/XFsqWJE.png
This is the DPS against a Battleship with a sig radius of 417, and a velocity of 279. These numbers were meant to be similar to an Imperial Navy Dominator http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/item.php?type_id=24982
http://i.imgur.com/2S9NjzQ.png
I picked those sig radii and velocities because I like to run missions against Amarr NPC Navy. |
Sequester Risalo
Semiki Minerals and Missiles Company Ltd.
174
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Posted - 2015.11.07 07:51:16 -
[3] - Quote
This is very helpful, thank you. |
Boozbaz
Brutor Clan
20
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Posted - 2015.11.07 09:08:49 -
[4] - Quote
Sequester Risalo wrote:This is very helpful, thank you.
Keep in mind that I didn't do this with T2 missiles. At some point in the future I might do this with T2 missiles and see how that changes things. |
Anize Oramara
The Arch Dashing Dashers
532
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Posted - 2015.11.07 09:46:02 -
[5] - Quote
Are the RHML Reload times taken into account? It hugely nerfs your dps over time. You DPS will show as being really high but that's only true for a single clip.
It all depends on what you are planning on using the ship for, ratting/missions, or PvP
A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier
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Uriam Khanid
New Machinarium Corporation
16
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Posted - 2015.11.07 09:51:23 -
[6] - Quote
i am using RHML for L4 (yes, i am strange), and must say that there is only one ship that good for rapid heavy's on L4 - Fleet Typhoon. Bargest have range and it not so good for PVE. Raven and Scorpion Navy have rof - which is excellent for PVP, but not for PVE Typhoon works fine with cruise missiles |
Valacus
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
7
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Posted - 2015.11.07 18:57:33 -
[7] - Quote
RHMLs take 5 years to reload. If you can't clear a room in 1 magazine, you'll be running super slow. |
Caleidascope
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
599
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Posted - 2015.11.07 20:40:34 -
[8] - Quote
also try drone boat setup
Life is short and dinner time is chancy
Eat dessert first!
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A Ingus
Purveyors of Uber Research Valuables and Ships
68
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Posted - 2015.11.07 21:24:24 -
[9] - Quote
Train tech II sentries. Use cruise missiles.
I often use a Fleet Phoon with one DLA II in a utility high and a painter in a mid. The sentries are used to take out the frig and dessys at 84km or closer. The cruise launcher IIs are for everything else. I use regular or precision cruises for the cruisers. The BCs and BSs get fury cruises. If any frigs get under the sentries I just mop them up with light tech II drones.
I see so many missile users trying to figure out how to use only missiles in missions. Most missile boats have a drone bay. Drones are excellent for taking out small stuff. Gun boats have to use them too if they small ships get under the gun tracking. So don't go rigor crazy or whatever trying to make your large missiles kill everything. Train some drone skills and use them.
The phoonkind are blessed with a larger drone bay than most nondrone boats. So sentries are very nice to use. |
Uriam Khanid
New Machinarium Corporation
17
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Posted - 2015.11.07 22:14:24 -
[10] - Quote
Valacus wrote:RHMLs take 5 years to reload. If you can't clear a room in 1 magazine, you'll be running super slow.
false statement. if you have ship that can clean room in 72 sec, please post a fit. |
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Chainsaw Plankton
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
2002
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Posted - 2015.11.08 07:43:04 -
[11] - Quote
I'd go with cruise. long range, short reload, and npcs are pretty fat and slow compared to player ships.
@ChainsawPlankto
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Boozbaz
Brutor Clan
20
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Posted - 2015.11.08 08:36:26 -
[12] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Are the RHML Reload times taken into account? It hugely nerfs your dps over time. You DPS will show as being really high but that's only true for a single clip.
Thank you for pointing this out to me. I did not include reload time on my original graphs. Here's the new graphs, with reload time included.
Once again: The Green Line is the RHML (and a pretty good Tom Hanks Movie - *ba*dum*tsh*) The Blue Line is the Cruise Missile Launcher The Red Line is the Torpedo Launcher.
This is the DPS against a Cruiser with a sig radius of 130, and a velocity of 346. These numbers were meant to be similar to an Imperial Navy Maller:
http://imgur.com/Bu2pDus
This is the DPS against a Battleship with a sig radius of 417, and a velocity of 279. These numbers were meant to be similar to an Imperial Navy Dominator:
http://imgur.com/zCOCOPU
Conclusions:
1. Against cruisers, RHML does better DPS, unless the cruiser is webbed, or beyond the range of RHML. 2. Against battleships, RHML's are the worst choice. Torpedoes do the best damage within web range, and cruise missiles do better damage from further ranges. |
Boozbaz
Brutor Clan
20
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Posted - 2015.11.08 08:58:15 -
[13] - Quote
And here we go with the -_-_***Typhoon Fleet Issue***_-_-
Now we're using the Typhoon Fleet Issue and we're also incorporating the reload time into the equation.
I'm sorry for the confusing change of color, but here's the colors...
The BLUE LINE is the RHML The GREEN LINE is the Cruise Launcher The RED LINE is the Torpedo Launcher
Against the Cruiser...
http://i.imgur.com/uCYTS2g.png
Against the Battleship...
http://i.imgur.com/iOgZcEY.png
Conclusions:
1. Uriam Khanid stated "there is only one ship that good for rapid heavy's on L4 - Fleet Typhoon" - and while I don't 100% agree with this statement, it is clear the the TFI is much better suited for RHML's than the regular Typhoon.
2. The TFI does good damage with RHML against Battleships that are beyond web range.
I did further testing with T2 ammunition. I wont post the graphs because I don't want to overload this thread with so many graphs that things become confusing. Instead I'll just say this: With T2 missiles, Torpedos do HUGE damage, as long as the targets are within web range. Beyond web range, RHML does better dps. Cruise missiles have the best range. That's a summary of my findings so far anyways. |
Thron Legacy
White Zulu Scorpion Federation
25
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Posted - 2015.11.08 20:17:42 -
[14] - Quote
what if i tell you that target painters work beyond 45km, altho at less efficiency = your graph is wrong at the end, it should go down like a quadratical function and not just drop down in an instant
and to actually give useful feedback Cruise VICTOR |
Anize Oramara
The Arch Dashing Dashers
535
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Posted - 2015.11.08 21:16:04 -
[15] - Quote
At 23km the cruise dps drops to 0?
what?
A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier
|
Sheeth Athonille
Rabid Dogz Mining Void..
50
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Posted - 2015.11.08 21:37:40 -
[16] - Quote
Thron Legacy wrote:what if i tell you that target painters work beyond 45km, altho at less efficiency = your graph is wrong at the end, it should go down like a quadratical function and not just drop down in an instant
and to actually give useful feedback Cruise VICTOR
I don't use missiles very often, so I might be wrong, but I believe this has to do with the flight time on missiles. I believe they simply don't work after a certain range, so their dps is effectively 0. Turrets are different since they do have fall-off, but not missiles.
Anize Oramara wrote:At 23km the cruise dps drops to 0?
what?
The red line is the torpedo's, not cruise :P |
Chainsaw Plankton
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
2006
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Posted - 2015.11.08 22:49:10 -
[17] - Quote
what is your fit and are you using implants?
Webs can be very strong for missile application, but the ranges involved are so small, that it just isn't really helpful in most missions. using another painter, or a missile guidance computer might provide better overall damage.
for the TFI: looks to me that using 2x rigor II 1x flare II, a RF painter and a precision scripted MGC you get full application with faction cruise missiles on cruisers.
same setup but with 3x painters 2x mgc and 5% implants gets full application with fury. That however gets into the realm of wasting slots that need to be doing other thigns. Looks like 2x painter 1x mgc is what I'd try to fly with, leaving a slot for a cap injector and a prop mod.
good application is nice on cruisers as you can usually fire 1 volley and let your sentry drones finish off the target, or two volley the target.
@ChainsawPlankto
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Anize Oramara
The Arch Dashing Dashers
535
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Posted - 2015.11.09 00:06:18 -
[18] - Quote
For the TFI I'd go armor tank, fury cruise and sentries. A little tight on CPU with a MWD but it can put out a decent amount of dps and apply that dps extremely well. If you go shield tank you lose a lot of that application for minor dps gain.
That said a Rattlesnake and Machariel will both out dps it, where the Rattlesnake will out tank it and the Mach will fly circles around it too. The rattlesnake is a superior RHML platform on top of all that because of more damage coming from drones and bigger damage bonus.
That said the TFI is a great ship with it's only real problem (in terms of PvE) being that there are better ships that do the same thing for about the same price
A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier
|
Uriam Khanid
New Machinarium Corporation
18
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Posted - 2015.11.09 00:42:45 -
[19] - Quote
Chainsaw Plankton wrote: for the TFI: looks to me that using 2x rigor II 1x flare II, a RF painter and a precision scripted MGC you get full application with faction cruise missiles on cruisers.
with RHML you don't need all of this. and you apply damage much better to all ship, even frig's. and other disadvantage of RHML - you need to MONITOR how you apply damage. it means that you need to stop shooting on the target, BEFORE you hit the target. and it is a big problem, not the 35 sec reload
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Uriam Khanid
New Machinarium Corporation
18
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Posted - 2015.11.09 00:49:34 -
[20] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:For the TFI I'd go armor tank, fury cruise and sentries. A little tight on CPU with a MWD but it can put out a decent amount of dps and apply that dps extremely well. If you go shield tank you lose a lot of that application for minor dps gain. That said a Rattlesnake and Machariel will both out dps it, where the Rattlesnake will out tank it and the Mach will fly circles around it too. The rattlesnake is a superior RHML platform on top of all that because of more damage coming from drones and bigger damage bonus. That said the TFI is a great ship with it's only real problem (in terms of PvE) being that there are better ships that do the same thing for about the same price
you conclusions are wrong, TFI with RHML actually outperform the Rattlesnake with RHML and i am using shield TFI. because it is never come to armor |
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Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
1616
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Posted - 2015.11.09 02:50:04 -
[21] - Quote
Rapids are really annoying to use for PVE for the above stated reason: because of the high rate of fire you're going to waste a lot of dps due to missile flight time. That or you'll have to monitor your volleys so closely it'll give you an aneurism which will be even more of an issue if you rely on painters and you shoot outside painter optimal. On the whole the more reliable to use cruises will be on par with the burst dps RHML, minus the annoyance.
Use cruise and fit 2 rigors 1 flare, then it's up to you to fit for shield and thus use more damage mods for both missiles and drones and an MGE or 2, or go armour and fit guidance modules. The armour fit will work better vs cruisers but overall dps will be better with shield fit. |
Boozbaz
Brutor Clan
21
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Posted - 2015.11.09 05:35:47 -
[22] - Quote
Thron Legacy wrote:what if i tell you that target painters work beyond 45km, altho at less efficiency = your graph is wrong at the end, it should go down like a quadratical function and not just drop down in an instant
and to actually give useful feedback Cruise VICTOR
Wanted to point out that your tone of voice in this post makes you sound like a douche.
Besides that, I'm using EFT to generate these charts. So if the line suddenly drops off at the 45km mark, it's got something to do with EFT. I noticed that drop at the 45km as well, and thought it should follow a parabolic curve, since target painters have falloff. But still, it's a minor issue from my perspective, so I didn't think much more about it after I noticed it for the first time. |
The Bigpuns
Touring New Eden Haven.
12
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Posted - 2015.11.09 16:08:32 -
[23] - Quote
Boozbaz wrote:*edit* did a little googling and found this: Quote:Beyond its optimal, the tp effect becomes chance based. So at 39+78 km the chance of a "hit" is 50%. If it hits, it provides the full effect to the target sig radius. EFT does not handle this die roll.
I did not know that. Seems a little counter-intuitive to me, but that's eve. Not that it matters as I only fit tp's to my golem, mgc's to everything else. |
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
4735
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Posted - 2015.11.14 09:12:05 -
[24] - Quote
Uriam Khanid wrote:Bargest have range and it not so good for PVE. It's not range - it's velocity. Which means you don't have to monitor volleys anywhere near as much (or at all) against longer range targets.
The Bigpuns wrote:]Beyond its optimal, the tp effect becomes chance based. So at 39+78 km the chance of a "hit" is 50%. If it hits, it provides the full effect to the target sig radius. EFT does not handle this die roll. Interesting. I was not aware of that, either (I always assumed falloff worked like it did with weapons).
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Chainsaw Plankton
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
2025
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Posted - 2015.11.15 03:51:06 -
[25] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Uriam Khanid wrote:Bargest have range and it not so good for PVE. It's not range - it's velocity. Which means you don't have to monitor volleys anywhere near as much (or at all) against longer range targets. The Bigpuns wrote:]Beyond its optimal, the tp effect becomes chance based. So at 39+78 km the chance of a "hit" is 50%. If it hits, it provides the full effect to the target sig radius. EFT does not handle this die roll. Interesting. I was not aware of that, either (I always assumed falloff worked like it did with weapons).
yeap the velocity bonus on missiles is awesome, not having one is one of the main reasons I hate flying a rattlesnake. Also come december the bargest is getting a slight dps boost too
with weapons falloff reduces chance to hit and hit quality. Although with tiericide on nos/neuts quality is effected by being in falloff, so I'm not sure what is going to happen with ewar as tiericide goes forward. In the long run having a % chance to hit is similar to quality, but on each individual roll the effect is either too weak or strong.
@ChainsawPlankto
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Uriam Khanid
New Machinarium Corporation
19
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Posted - 2015.11.15 15:17:11 -
[26] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote: It's not range - it's velocity. Which means you don't have to monitor volleys anywhere near as much (or at all) against longer range targets.
triple speed means range, and looks you are not so familiar with RHML. especially with caldari RHML, which have awesome rof. and when each volley is a nps ship, you will monitor. |
Valacus
Streets of Fire
14
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Posted - 2015.11.17 22:41:26 -
[27] - Quote
RHML reload, 10 billion years. Cruise reload, not 10 billion years. Not much of a contest IMO. Rapid launchers aren't very good for PvE. |
Anize Oramara
The Arch Dashing Dashers
569
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Posted - 2015.11.18 07:42:53 -
[28] - Quote
Uriam Khanid wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote: It's not range - it's velocity. Which means you don't have to monitor volleys anywhere near as much (or at all) against longer range targets.
triple speed means range, and looks you are not so familiar with RHML. especially with caldari RHML, which have awesome rof. and when each volley is a nps ship, you will monitor. He means that the range isn't the important part of the bonus that barghest gets, although that is what the bonus also gives. The important part of the bonus is that the increased velocity (that equals increased range yes) means that the volley of missiles hit before the next volley leaves the tubes. This means less wasted volleys or less having to monitor(pay attention to or counting) volleys so long as you're close enough.
This is also why ships with bonussed damage are better than ships with bonussed rof when it comes to Rapid missile launchers for PvE. A good example is the Orthrus and the Caracal. It basically reduces the effect the long reload has on the dps.
A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier
|
Anize Oramara
The Arch Dashing Dashers
569
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Posted - 2015.11.18 07:59:19 -
[29] - Quote
Valacus wrote:RHML reload, 10 billion years. Cruise reload, not 10 billion years. Not much of a contest IMO. Rapid launchers aren't very good for PvE. Actually, did a fun little test quickly in EFT. EFT can show damage with reloads taken into account.
Cruise Barghest using Faction cruise missiles and fitted with 3 faction BCU and 1 BCU II (Pretty standard layout) has a dps WITH reloads of 808dps (843dps with no reloads)
RHML Barghest using Fury missiles (Identical explosion velocity, much better explosion radius than faction cruise) also fitted with 3 faction BCU and 1 BCU II has a dps WITH reloads of 780 (1192 dps with reloads)
So for a cost of 28dps I get better application (explosion radius 180 vs 247) and far fewer wasted damage from overkill because smaller damage per volley. Come December that 28dps cost should be even less though no idea by how much.
The Barghest really is the champion of RHM and Torps (more so than the Golem imho)
A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier
|
Loradan Illstari
Heretic Army I N F A M O U S
2
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Posted - 2015.11.18 22:58:32 -
[30] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Valacus wrote:RHML reload, 10 billion years. Cruise reload, not 10 billion years. Not much of a contest IMO. Rapid launchers aren't very good for PvE. Actually, did a fun little test quickly in EFT. EFT can show damage with reloads taken into account. Cruise Barghest using Faction cruise missiles and fitted with 3 faction BCU and 1 BCU II (Pretty standard layout) has a dps WITH reloads of 808dps (843dps with no reloads) RHML Barghest using Fury missiles (Identical explosion velocity, much better explosion radius than faction cruise) also fitted with 3 faction BCU and 1 BCU II has a dps WITH reloads of 780 (1192 dps with reloads) So for a cost of 28dps I get better application (explosion radius 180 vs 247) and far fewer wasted damage from overkill because smaller damage per volley. Come December that 28dps cost should be even less though no idea by how much. The Barghest really is the champion of RHM and Torps (more so than the Golem imho)
Fewer wasted volleys, but you're using up way more ammunition since RHML makes up the DPS in rate of fire vs. volley damage for cruise. I still say cruise missiles are a huge win over RHML. |
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