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Chainsaw Plankton
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
2040
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Posted - 2015.11.18 23:23:09 -
[31] - Quote
meh, ammo is cheap
@ChainsawPlankto
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Anize Oramara
The Arch Dashing Dashers
576
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Posted - 2015.11.19 08:20:53 -
[32] - Quote
Loradan Illstari wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:Valacus wrote:RHML reload, 10 billion years. Cruise reload, not 10 billion years. Not much of a contest IMO. Rapid launchers aren't very good for PvE. Actually, did a fun little test quickly in EFT. EFT can show damage with reloads taken into account. Cruise Barghest using Faction cruise missiles and fitted with 3 faction BCU and 1 BCU II (Pretty standard layout) has a dps WITH reloads of 808dps (843dps with no reloads) RHML Barghest using Fury missiles (Identical explosion velocity, much better explosion radius than faction cruise) also fitted with 3 faction BCU and 1 BCU II has a dps WITH reloads of 780 (1192 dps with reloads) So for a cost of 28dps I get better application (explosion radius 180 vs 247) and far fewer wasted damage from overkill because smaller damage per volley. Come December that 28dps cost should be even less though no idea by how much. The Barghest really is the champion of RHM and Torps (more so than the Golem imho) Fewer wasted volleys, but you're using up way more ammunition since RHML makes up the DPS in rate of fire vs. volley damage for cruise. I still say cruise missiles are a huge win over RHML. Check the prices for T2 ammo vs faction ammo. T2 ammo pretty cheap. A quick look at eve central T2 scourge fury is less than 400isk each, faction scourge cruise is almsot 4 times that however cruise volley is only slightly more than double that of the heavy missiles.
That means cruise missile costs are actually MORE (almsot double) than that of heavy missiles. You actually save money using HRML over using cruise.
A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier
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Anize Oramara
The Arch Dashing Dashers
576
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Posted - 2015.11.19 09:00:59 -
[33] - Quote
So interesting thing, i did the same little test I did on the barghest on the Typhoon Navy (Damage bonus rather than rof bonus like T1 phoon) and the dps with reloads on RHML is only 18 dps less than Cruise. Larger amount of damage coming from drones though.
Only downsides of course is missiles are a lot slower, lower range, counting volleys all that jazz and the ship itself is slower than the barghest. The change coming December might be enough to bring the Barghest up to Typhoon Navy level to be honest. People might start ratting with it 0.o
A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier
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Uriam Khanid
New Machinarium Corporation
19
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Posted - 2015.11.19 18:52:01 -
[34] - Quote
Valacus wrote:RHML reload, 10 billion years. Cruise reload, not 10 billion years. Not much of a contest IMO. Rapid launchers aren't very good for PvE.
totally wrong, they are excellent and awesome for PVE and PVP. main disadvantage of RHML is that you need to count your volley's. 35 second reload is nothing due to ability to wreck everything around you |
Uriam Khanid
New Machinarium Corporation
19
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Posted - 2015.11.19 19:18:33 -
[35] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote: Actually, did a fun little test quickly in EFT. EFT can show damage with reloads taken into account.
Cruise Barghest using Faction cruise missiles and fitted with 3 faction BCU and 1 BCU II (Pretty standard layout) has a dps WITH reloads of 808dps (843dps with no reloads)
RHML Barghest using Fury missiles (Identical explosion velocity, much better explosion radius than faction cruise) also fitted with 3 faction BCU and 1 BCU II has a dps WITH reloads of 780 (1192 dps with reloads)
So for a cost of 28dps I get better application (explosion radius 180 vs 247) and far fewer wasted damage from overkill because smaller damage per volley. Come December that 28dps cost should be even less though no idea by how much.
The Barghest really is the champion of RHM and Torps (more so than the Golem imho)
EFT thing is one thing. Reality - very different. This summs from my experiense (both PVe and PVP): RHML with fury works bad. For both PVE and PVP. Really bad, faction ammo is wonder. Even T1 ammo better than fury. Ships with bonus to damage (TFI, Barghest) must to fit T2 launchers Ships with rof (Scorp Navy, Raven) must to fit Caldari RHML to exploit rof bonus, otherwise its useless. Even in PVP (if you deal with crus/frig) you need to count volley's. TFI much better RHML platform than Barghest because of 200m3 dronebay which gives you ability to carry few flights of small/meduim drones. Cruise missiles needs rigs, target painters, and some midslots. with RHML you need only target Painter in PVP, in PVE you don't need target painter.
Disadvantage of RHML in PVE is simple to dicribe: you need to kill 8 npc destroyers/frif's. each frig is 1 volley from your ship. rof is 2s for Scorp navy and 3s for TFI/Barghest so, in next 15-25s you need to push F1/click mouse 16 times!!! 35s reload is nothing...
i try to answer to all your posts. |
Chainsaw Plankton
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
2052
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Posted - 2015.11.19 22:13:20 -
[36] - Quote
in my experience fury heavy missiles apply very well in most pve settings. Although with cruise the main thing is good application on BS, swapping to faction/precision to take down cruisers isn't the worst thing, not desirable, but if you can plan for it it shouldn't impact you too much.
I'm not sure that fitting CN RHML is the best way to take advantage of a RoF bonus. the dps difference seems tiny (3dps/launcher after reload on a raven), and you lose access to fury missiles.
as for the mass of 1 volley frigs first off: use your drones when you can. Second: barg has a huge advantage with its missile velocity bonus as those missiles go 20km/s, and will probably get to the target before the next volley fires. If not imo you picked the wrong target. Can't speak too much to the other ships, at the point you shoot frigs they are probably close enough, although the rof is pretty insane so you very well might need that extra press. And so what a few extra button presses, lots of games where you need to press a button every second or so, and are probably hitting other buttons too. third: auto-targeting missiles are rather fun in that scenario, CNR with its bonus can volley many frigs with auto-targeting cruise.
@ChainsawPlankto
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Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1662
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Posted - 2015.11.20 02:16:12 -
[37] - Quote
I am thinking of dusting off my Rattler that has not been used for about a year or more and converting it from an Activel/Cruise boat to a Passive RHML setup.
My thoughts were to split the RHML into two banks to reduce the wasted DPS. It will make for a busy workload but should help. has anyone tried this ? |
Anize Oramara
The Arch Dashing Dashers
582
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Posted - 2015.11.20 10:30:04 -
[38] - Quote
Uriam Khanid wrote:EFT thing is one thing. Reality - very different. Yes and no.
Yes relying on ONLY dps as shown in eft is usually where people go wrong and is where the disdain for 'EFT warriors' comes from. For example they look at Torp and Cruise dps and say that Torps are obviously WAY better because the dps is a lot higher. In that case they're not looking at the application of the damage nor the range or speed of the toprs, etc. A very common mistake.
However I'm looking at all the parts, not just the dps but also the reload, rof, explosion radius, explosion velocity, velocity of the missiles and even cost of the ammunition. All of these things together make up the reality. Some directly influences how fast you kill things and others are quality of life kind of things. If you take all of the components that make up reality into account then EFT = Practice(usually).
When comparing the two hulls (Barghest and Typhoon) in terms of RHML effectiveness both have their advantages. Depends on what you want to use them for. The primary thing going for the Barghest is the missile velocity bonus that is a HUGE quality of life type of thing. The new Missile guidance enhancers also really shine on the Barghest IMHO. Want to train T2 Heavy missiles just so I can fly this:
[Barghest, RHML] Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Ballistic Control System II Missile Guidance Enhancer II Missile Guidance Enhancer II
Republic Fleet Target Painter Shadow Serpentis 500MN Microwarpdrive Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800 Pith C-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Small Tractor Beam II
Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II
Hammerhead II x5 Hobgoblin II x5
A Brawler Fleet Typhoon version would look something like this (You can also do a sentry sniper with range scripts):
[Typhoon Fleet Issue, RHML Brawler] Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Imperial Navy Drone Damage Amplifier Imperial Navy Drone Damage Amplifier Reactive Armor Hardener Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Centus C-Type Large Armor Repairer
Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800 Federation Navy 500MN Microwarpdrive Republic Fleet Target Painter Missile Guidance Computer II, Missile Precision Script Missile Guidance Computer II, Missile Precision Script
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Drone Link Augmentor II Small Tractor Beam II
Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II
Hammerhead II x5 Hobgoblin II x5 Ogre II x5
A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier
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Uriam Khanid
New Machinarium Corporation
20
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Posted - 2015.11.20 13:20:21 -
[39] - Quote
Target painter useless. you will finished most targets faster than TP ends circle. on many target you need to shoot 1-2-3 volley, than proseed to next npc and MJD will help you a lot as offensive module on TFI.
about Barghest - i am agree that triple speed is good, but if you look on bonus of the speed bonus - its range. and shooting on 100km with such rof means waste of ammo and ability to quickly wrecked npc ships. |
Anize Oramara
The Arch Dashing Dashers
583
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Posted - 2015.11.20 15:40:44 -
[40] - Quote
Uriam Khanid wrote:Target painter useless. you will finished most targets faster than TP ends circle. on many target you need to shoot 1-2-3 volley, than proseed to next npc and MJD will help you a lot as offensive module on TFI.
about Barghest - i am agree that triple speed is good, but if you look on bonus of the speed bonus - its range. and shooting on 100km with such rof means waste of ammo and ability to quickly wrecked npc ships. Target painter Duration: 5 seconds RHML Duration 2.6 seconds
Also with a missile speed of 22km/s (with two guidance enhancers) so long as the target is within about 55km you wont waste volleys. If it is further you will waste maximum of 1 volley. The volleys are half the wasted damage of a wasted cruise volley and only costs 1/4 the isk.
A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier
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Valacus
Streets of Fire
29
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Posted - 2015.11.20 16:33:47 -
[41] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Loradan Illstari wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:Valacus wrote:RHML reload, 10 billion years. Cruise reload, not 10 billion years. Not much of a contest IMO. Rapid launchers aren't very good for PvE. Actually, did a fun little test quickly in EFT. EFT can show damage with reloads taken into account. Cruise Barghest using Faction cruise missiles and fitted with 3 faction BCU and 1 BCU II (Pretty standard layout) has a dps WITH reloads of 808dps (843dps with no reloads) RHML Barghest using Fury missiles (Identical explosion velocity, much better explosion radius than faction cruise) also fitted with 3 faction BCU and 1 BCU II has a dps WITH reloads of 780 (1192 dps with reloads) So for a cost of 28dps I get better application (explosion radius 180 vs 247) and far fewer wasted damage from overkill because smaller damage per volley. Come December that 28dps cost should be even less though no idea by how much. The Barghest really is the champion of RHM and Torps (more so than the Golem imho) Fewer wasted volleys, but you're using up way more ammunition since RHML makes up the DPS in rate of fire vs. volley damage for cruise. I still say cruise missiles are a huge win over RHML. Check the prices for T2 ammo vs faction ammo. T2 ammo pretty cheap. A quick look at eve central T2 scourge fury is less than 400isk each, faction scourge cruise is almsot 4 times that however cruise volley is only slightly more than double that of the heavy missiles. That means cruise missile costs are actually MORE (almsot double) than that of heavy missiles. You actually save money using HRML over using cruise.
Scourge fury cruise missiles costs 440 isk in Jita. Scourge fury heavies cost 398. So no, not almost double. Not by a long shot. Again, cruise wins. |
Anize Oramara
The Arch Dashing Dashers
583
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 17:45:12 -
[42] - Quote
Valacus wrote: Scourge fury cruise missiles costs 440 isk in Jita. Scourge fury heavies cost 398. So no, not almost double. Not by a long shot. Again, cruise wins.
Do try and keep up. Faction cruise and fury heavies have the same explosion velocities with fury heavies having better explosion radius. This is why I compared those two specifically. Otherwise you have a problem with application so your Fury cruise does far less damage than advertised or you need additional application on a hull that already has no bonuses to application. Here I'll even quote you the bit I originally wrote:
Quote:Actually, did a fun little test quickly in EFT. EFT can show damage with reloads taken into account.
Cruise Barghest using Faction cruise missiles and fitted with 3 faction BCU and 1 BCU II (Pretty standard layout) has a dps WITH reloads of 808dps (843dps with no reloads)
RHML Barghest using Fury missiles (Identical explosion velocity, much better explosion radius than faction cruise) also fitted with 3 faction BCU and 1 BCU II has a dps WITH reloads of 780 (1192 dps with reloads)
So for a cost of 28dps I get better application (explosion radius 180 vs 247) and far fewer wasted damage from overkill because smaller damage per volley. Come December that 28dps cost should be even less though no idea by how much.
The Barghest really is the champion of RHM and Torps (more so than the Golem imho)
This isn't rocket science.
Ok, so it kinda is
A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier
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