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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Skyler Hawk
Boars on Parade The Tuskers Co.
61
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Posted - 2015.11.08 20:05:59 -
[1] - Quote
Ban racial ECM mods.
That is all. |
Aldrith Shutaq
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1190
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Posted - 2015.11.08 21:19:40 -
[2] - Quote
I agree on this front; the meta here is extremely powerful for anything but the largest Amarr ships, or T2 cruisers. In my case, we feared the meta so much we doubled down on it and only really lost because we lacked prop mods so we could deal with the Dragoons quickly. |
Merdaneth
Tzedakah Aegis Militia
379
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Posted - 2015.11.08 22:07:57 -
[3] - Quote
Test and analysis indicated that ECM could be quite dominant in this tournamen format.
In fact, for our first match, we fielded 12 ECM modules (out of 13 availabe midslots in our team), complete forgoing things like tracking disruptors on a Sentinel. Even though our enemies were flying high sensor strength ships (T2 Cruisers and T2 EAF mostly), they still won the match for us.
This is something that commentators also didn't seem to understand. "Why don't we see more TD's, they are good against Amarr ships" they asked themselves.
Well, it is because any number of TDs on one ship can be disabled by one ECM. That is besides disabling tackle, dps and sense of what is going. If you are flying frigs and you put in a TD and the enemy puts in ECM, you are going to lose. It it that simple.
We saw many ships compositions forgoing prop mods, tackle and other ewar and fitting exclusively ECM in mids. Simply because of its power.
I'm not saying that banning it is the solution, but just be aware that many small ship fights will be dominated by ECM. And the ECM mechanic is, as it stands, not particularly exciting for a neutral viewer, and similar for participants, since it effectively reduces ships to 'doing nothing'.
That is still my biggest issue with ECM. That mostly you are left twiddling your thumbs and hoping a die rolls the right way for you. Tracking disruptors are so much more enjoyable to use and to try and counter.
Damps, when used in a tournament kind of setup (with scripts), tend to have the same effect as ECM. They tend to neuter one side unless it specifically prepares a counter for it. |
Gaven Lok'ri
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
467
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Posted - 2015.11.08 22:52:28 -
[4] - Quote
Quote:We saw many ships compositions forgoing prop mods, tackle and other ewar and fitting exclusively ECM in mids. Simply because of its power.
I think in the 2 midslot mirror matches the forgoing prop mod would have happened with the winning team regardless. The advantages gained by not having a propmod are pretty large in fitting terms in a mirror setup scenario. And only some of them are EW, it is a lot harder for your team to get spread out and defeated in detail if you are all sticking together.
But that said, the racial ECM being allowed was not in line with the other rules for the tournament that removed scripts from the other offensive EW. For TD and Damps, the offense/defense options were effectively even, whereas for ECM they were not. This made ECM far more relatively powerful than it would have been otherwise.
Lord Admiral of PIE inc.
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Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
516
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Posted - 2015.11.08 23:13:55 -
[5] - Quote
it should have been banned when they said 'amarr only ships'
just saying. thats like tournament design 101.
Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
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Kelon Darklight
EVE University Ivy League
3
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Posted - 2015.11.09 04:53:07 -
[6] - Quote
I would love a ban on using ecm for these matches, helped test the winning slicer comp and without eccm those slicers were PURE CANCER. Just so much cheese. We thought about ecm and discarded it. Made for much more interesting matches. |
edeity
Holy Amarrian Battlemonk Habitual Chaos
78
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Posted - 2015.11.09 07:07:46 -
[7] - Quote
Aldrith Shutaq wrote:I agree on this front; the meta here is extremely powerful for anything but the largest Amarr ships, or T2 cruisers. In my case, we feared the meta so much we doubled down on it and only really lost because we lacked prop mods so we could deal with the Dragoons quickly.
Even in t2 shps with high RADAR skills our fleet was near permajammed. Tristan in a Vengeance literally fired 2 volleys total.
Implants to increase RADAR were against the rules.... |
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2321
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Posted - 2015.11.09 07:27:13 -
[8] - Quote
ECM dominated our first sparring match so much that we thought to ourselves "no way CCP will be stupid enough to allow this" so we didn't train with it.
Then the rules were announced and the morning before the first round we basically decided to take advantage of CCP's mistake.
Having said that, ECCM and backups are a decent defence against it when used across the fleet. The fact that the pundits were surprised that we fitted it in our second fight says a lot about CCP's understanding of it.
Yonis Ardishapur for Emperor
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Gaven Lok'ri
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
469
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Posted - 2015.11.09 07:34:57 -
[9] - Quote
Kelon Darklight wrote:I would love a ban on using ecm for these matches, helped test the winning slicer comp and without eccm those slicers were PURE CANCER. Just so much cheese. We thought about ecm and discarded it. Made for much more interesting matches.
And they were fighting ECCM slicers in the actual match.
I think the deciding factor in the slicer match was that the winning team did a better job holding together positionally rather than the ECM.
Lord Admiral of PIE inc.
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Rodj Blake
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2321
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Posted - 2015.11.09 12:21:55 -
[10] - Quote
Gaven Lok'ri wrote:Kelon Darklight wrote:I would love a ban on using ecm for these matches, helped test the winning slicer comp and without eccm those slicers were PURE CANCER. Just so much cheese. We thought about ecm and discarded it. Made for much more interesting matches. And they were fighting ECCM slicers in the actual match. I think the deciding factor in the slicer match was that the winning team did a better job holding together positionally rather than the ECM. Edit: Though again, I would *love* to see white noise taken out of at least the small ship matches next week!
Unfortunately I have to agree with you Gaven. SoulLess Zealot's team's positioning was better than our's in general and mine in particular :(
Yonis Ardishapur for Emperor
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
13464
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Posted - 2015.11.09 16:36:45 -
[11] - Quote
I'll chat with some other members of the team about the option of further restricting ECM, but I can already say that even with no extra restrictions the formats most vulnerable to ECM are behind us.
Game Designer | Team Five-0
https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie
http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/
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Soldarius
Naliao Inc. Test Alliance Please Ignore
1425
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Posted - 2015.11.09 16:58:41 -
[12] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:I'll chat with some other members of the team about the option of further restricting ECM, but I can already say that even with no extra restrictions the formats most vulnerable to ECM are behind us.
M8, you have an all Amarr competition. We had a 95 sensor strength ECCMed Curse backed by an Imperial Navy Mindlinked all 5 pilot with Sensor Integrity II links that got jammed repeatedly over and over. Personally I was jammed over 50% of the entire match time in my Damnation.
Racial ECM is too strong in this format. It basically comes down to whoever gets jams off first wins. Flying in this environment was extremely frustrating and honestly felt like the opposing team had 2 free Rooks on grid.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not mad. I just don't want the rest of the tourney to be decided purely on how much the RNG faerie likes one person or another.
And if like the one pilot says, they basically decided to forgoe all mid slot items in favor of ECM, clearly something needs to be done.
http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
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Arsia Elkin
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
21
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Posted - 2015.11.09 18:03:55 -
[13] - Quote
I think a big problem with ecm in this format is that in most matches it calls for ecm to beat ecm. For example tracking disruption wOuld likely have been better than ecm in our all retributions match, but if we brought tracking disruption and they brought ecm then our tds wouldn't work a lot of the time. So because of that, we brought ecm. It was in every match. Although it probably wasn't the deciding factor in every single one, the fact that it showed up so often means its presence will heavily influence fittings and lead to a less creative and fun (both to watch and participate in) tournament.
"To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin"
- The Scriptures, Book of Missions 13:21
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Merdaneth
Tzedakah Aegis Militia
380
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Posted - 2015.11.09 18:35:09 -
[14] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:I'll chat with some other members of the team about the option of further restricting ECM, but I can already say that even with no extra restrictions the formats most vulnerable to ECM are behind us.
You have to consider how much you like the alliance tournament to resemble actual EVE PvP. Where prop mods (and tackle) on most smaller ships are more or less mandatory in PvP, in the current tournament meta you saw many small ships without any prop mod and tackle whatsoever. We saw double ECM Slicers, double ECM Retributions, triple ECM Zealots, quadruple ECM Curses. That doesn't resemble TQ PvP at all.
Double ECM Retri https://zkillboard.com/kill/50068950/
Double ECM Slicer https://zkillboard.com/kill/50067221/
Double ECM Dragoon https://zkillboard.com/kill/50063754/
Quadruple ECM Curse https://zkillboard.com/kill/50068047/
The current meta is like this:
1. Heavy ECM (most mids filled with racial ECM, plus ECM rigs and possibly low slots) 2. ECCM 3. Other (regular fits, might include some TD fits, some ECM etc)
A good way to counter heavy ECM is bring heavy ECM yourself, since heavy ECM is always useful. As you pointed out, to bring heavy ECCM, you have to be pretty confident that the enemy brings ECM, because it will be useless otherwise.
Even if you bring ECCM, it still is partially up to the roll of the dice. A sensor booster is a hard counter to a sensor damp, but ECCM is not a hard counter vs. ECM.
You also have to consider that mid slots are pretty rare among Amarr ships, and with mid slots at a premium, pressure is on getting an extra ECM above an extra ECCM (or two lowslot ECCM).
Also, ECM heavy fights are confusing for the public to see (and judging from the commentators, often confusing for them as well), shifts focus from pilot skill to RNG, and is boring for the participants.
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Merdaneth
Tzedakah Aegis Militia
380
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Posted - 2015.11.09 18:46:09 -
[15] - Quote
Also, CCP Rise about the Slicer fight:
Quote:I expect all of them to be fit pretty similar, microwarpdrives for sure
Zero microwarpdrives in the fight, heh.
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Aldrith Shutaq
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1191
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Posted - 2015.11.09 19:14:18 -
[16] - Quote
A Slicer fight without ECM would definitely have been a dogfight for the ages.
But, there was ECM. |
Alizabeth Vea
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
608
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Posted - 2015.11.09 20:09:10 -
[17] - Quote
For our first match, we were all in tech 2 ships with the stronger sensor strength naturally, so we didn't bring ECM, as the replay plainly shows. Coupled with a command ship that could have brought links, it was decided that TDs was the better options. For round two against Elise Randolph, we basically used a double ECM no prop mod. It was either bring ECM or bring ECCM, thanks to the relatively low sensor strength of the Retributions and ECM is always better than ECCM. Without ECM, I think we still would have won, but I am a little less sure on that. Still, as long as ECM is allowed, that is going to be the meta, since you know exactly what you want to jam. The Caldari in me whines when I say this, but 'get rid of ECM.'
Forged in the fires of the forth Delve war, I've been to hell, and I'm back for more, so cap the gas and push back the door, turn fuel to fire, let the monster roar.
Retainer of House Sarum
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Arsia Elkin
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
22
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Posted - 2015.11.09 20:26:19 -
[18] - Quote
Alizabeth Vea wrote:For our first match, we were all in tech 2 ships with the stronger sensor strength naturally, so we didn't bring ECM, as the replay plainly shows. Coupled with a command ship that could have brought links, it was decided that TDs was the better options. For round two against Elise Randolph, we basically used a double ECM no prop mod. It was either bring ECM or bring ECCM, thanks to the relatively low sensor strength of the Retributions and ECM is always better than ECCM. Without ECM, I think we still would have won, but I am a little less sure on that. Still, as long as ECM is allowed, that is going to be the meta, since you know exactly what you want to jam. The Caldari in me whines when I say this, but 'get rid of ECM.'
We had ecm drones in the first round. They weren't as big of a part of our strategy as the ecm was in the second round, but they were there.
"To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin"
- The Scriptures, Book of Missions 13:21
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Mitara Newelle
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
254
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Posted - 2015.11.09 20:32:22 -
[19] - Quote
I don't think any of us *wanted* to use ECM, but rather since they were allowed it would have been stupid not too. I don't care for ECM, it's not Amarrian, so I would be fine if it wasn't allowed for the upcoming weekend. Beating the dead horse, ECM is way out of balance with the other racial ewar as implemented. |
Danmal
Proioxis Assault Force Exodus.
30
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Posted - 2015.11.09 21:21:53 -
[20] - Quote
1. There has always been a tourney meta, be that drones, damps, Marauders, missiles, or ecm. Complaining about one of them seems to me as good as complaining about the next one. E.g.: "They outrange us! We like brawling! CCPlz, nerf range!"
2. I flew in the Slicer match on the winning team's side. The opponent anticipated that we would bring ecm and fitted what was a hard counter to our setup. As somebody who flew on the other side said, they did not lose because of the setup but because of positioning/piloting. The understanding of the meta of both teams was equally strong (or they had intel from our practice), and our opponent next-leveled it. That leveled the playing field. Isn't part of the excitement of a tourney to understand the meta and know how to deal with it? They did.
3. Some of the statements as to how much somebody was jammed in a ship with very high sensor strength are either really bad luck of the draw or wildly exaggerated. |
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Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
516
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Posted - 2015.11.09 22:39:31 -
[21] - Quote
Danmal wrote:1. There has always been a tourney meta, be that drones, damps, Marauders, missiles, or ecm. Complaining about one of them seems to me as good as complaining about the next one. E.g.: "They outrange us! We like brawling! CCPlz, nerf range!"
2. I flew in the Slicer match on the winning team's side. The opponent anticipated that we would bring ecm and fitted what was a hard counter to our setup. As somebody who flew on the other side said, they did not lose because of the setup but because of positioning/piloting. The understanding of the meta of both teams was equally strong (or they had intel from our practice), and our opponent next-leveled it. That leveled the playing field. Isn't part of the excitement of a tourney to understand the meta and know how to deal with it? They did. ya but dude you dont say, ok this tournament you can use only turrets for offensive module, and then not ban tracking disruptors.
Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
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Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
516
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Posted - 2015.11.09 23:04:41 -
[22] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:I'll chat with some other members of the team about the option of further restricting ECM, but I can already say that even with no extra restrictions the formats most vulnerable to ECM are behind us. instead of having an epic brawl fest, and an intresting tournament, we had a jam fest. which really is quite un amarr. this was extremely disappointing to not have the rp aspect resolved with raw combat brawling which is very amarr. instead it was bring 14 jammers and the first team to get jams off won.
besides this tournament didnt have to be resolved only by combat. one house could have said, ok you guys can fly only sigils and its not a fight, its a race, the only offensive mods allowed are scrams and webs. and put everybody together so they have to figure out who to web and scram to get ahead in the race.
maybe one house determined that the best way to pick their champion was to give them assets and see who could transport this here and there and play the market and make isk, the first team to hit a certain isk threshold would be the house champions.
pvp is cool and all. but there could have been alot more content.
Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
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Desiderya
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
1062
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Posted - 2015.11.10 01:46:39 -
[23] - Quote
It made watching the fights rather boring. I was looking forward to the Retri and Slicer matches but it was quite static.
Was hoping for ecstatic and got EC-static.
Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.
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Shelley Tortuga
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2015.11.10 02:27:32 -
[24] - Quote
Just a short endorsement of the format/rules and piloting.
I watched all six hours (I was attempting to finish writing a proposal at the same time).
I did not understand much of what was happening but it was the most engaging EvE tournament that I have seen in my limited experience.
The Curse on Curse match was really great.
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SoulLess Zealot
Proioxis Assault Force Exodus.
16
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Posted - 2015.11.10 05:00:02 -
[25] - Quote
Danmal wrote:1. There has always been a tourney meta, be that drones, damps, Marauders, missiles, or ecm. Complaining about one of them seems to me as good as complaining about the next one. E.g.: "They outrange us! We like brawling! CCPlz, nerf range!"
2. I flew in the Slicer match on the winning team's side. The opponent anticipated that we would bring ecm and fitted what was a hard counter to our setup. As somebody who flew on the other side said, they did not lose because of the setup but because of positioning/piloting. The understanding of the meta of both teams was equally strong (or they had intel from our practice), and our opponent next-leveled it. That leveled the playing field. Isn't part of the excitement of a tourney to understand the meta and know how to deal with it? They did.
this would be my argument exactly ..
that being said i also believe that jams are op in this format( may just be that i feel its sort of cowardly and less player skill intensive)..however the just prop jamming mod idea is also very static. i believe there is nothing wrong with any other sort of e-war |
Desiderya
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
1063
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Posted - 2015.11.10 12:28:06 -
[26] - Quote
Doesn't matter if it's OP or not. It's safe to say that everyone anticipates folks to play to win and use all tricks in the book to reach their goal. However, it was leading to a bad show, and as a spectator I think one can complain about that.
Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.
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Rodj Blake
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2329
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Posted - 2015.11.10 12:38:12 -
[27] - Quote
Another thing is that the commentators seemed surprised at times that more people weren't using tracking disruptors. I wasn't at all surprised that people weren't using them.
TDs are great, especially when fitted on ships with the right bonuses - but they're less great when scripts are banned.
What CCP has done in this Amarrian competition is nerf Amarrian EW while making Caldari EW more effective (because of the fixed sensor type).
Yonis Ardishapur for Emperor
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Reppyk
The Black Shell
814
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Posted - 2015.11.10 21:12:10 -
[28] - Quote
Shelley Tortuga wrote:The Curse on Curse match was really great. I have to remember people here than a team fielded 14 jammers and still lost.
I AM SPACE CAPTAIN REPPYK. BEWARE.
Proud co-admin of frugu.net, a French fansite about EVE !
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Valacus
Streets of Fire
9
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Posted - 2015.11.11 03:23:09 -
[29] - Quote
6 hours of ECM boredom. I can't believe CCP didn't see this coming.
"Hurrrr durrrr, what happens when all the ships have the same sensor type?"
And LOL at the commentary in between matches. They were so blind sided by the ECM fest that they couldn't call a single fit for virtually any ship. 4 ECM curse. Slicers with no MWD. What lolz. The CCP commentary team was a total and utter joke. I was embarrassed for them. |
edeity
Holy Amarrian Battlemonk Habitual Chaos
79
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Posted - 2015.11.11 07:28:38 -
[30] - Quote
The only winner IMO from the "Amarr" Trials so far has been Caldari ECM technology. |
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