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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Lucy Callagan
SnaiLs aNd FroGs
29
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Posted - 2015.12.21 23:36:07 -
[361] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Combat pilot + links > 5, 10 or more unlinked combat pilots is actually the problem. They'll never catch him...best case scenario is forcing him off temporarily with ewar and long range weapons.
Lol no, especially in low sec where ppl never go more than 2 jumps away their staging. D A N K refitting is so hard.
Frugu.net
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Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
359
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Posted - 2015.12.22 02:39:10 -
[362] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Templar Dane wrote:combat pilot + links > combat pilot
But also......
mining pilot + mining pilot > mining pilot
mission pilot + mission pilot > mission pilot
market hub alt + market hub alt > market hub alt
combat pilot + ecm pilot > combat pilot
combat pilot + logi pilot > logi pilot
It goes on forever. I'm pretty sure I never saw an ad for eve online that stated anything like "one account is all you'll ever want/need"
But I guess links were the singular reason for the downfall of solo pvp and he'll not hear anything to the contrary.
edit
This is eve online, the game where players do anything to win. Underhanded tactics have been celebrated for as long as I've played the game.
If not links, it'll be logi alts or ecm alts or whatever else creative players come up with. A lot of people do stuff like that, and the logi alts even make kills look like they were solo. Is it dirty? Yeah. Is it unfair? Yes.
Even if ccp put in some ******* karma score to reward players for being honest, it would be the mission of the majority of players to accrue as negative a karma score as possible because that's just our nature.
The loss of offgrid links would just cause people to adapt. Then people would ***** about whatever "underhanded" thing replaced them. CCPLZ no more than one logistics ship allowed on any given grid. CCPLZ delete all ecm drones/ships. CCPLZ give me a box in options menu so that only one other ship can ever be on grid with me. Combat pilot + links > 5, 10 or more unlinked combat pilots is actually the problem. They'll never catch him...best case scenario is forcing him off temporarily with ewar and long range weapons. Other combat alts provide far less of an advantage in terms of leveling the playing field against higher numbers, while entailing greater risk
You're talking about kiting. Multiple pilots against a kiting pilot can work if you position yourself right, he'll either get caught or forced off.
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Estella Osoka
Perkone Caldari State
949
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Posted - 2015.12.22 14:24:27 -
[363] - Quote
Someone proposed an idea in Player Features and Ideas.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=460705&find=unread |
Bastion Arzi
Angry Mustellid Decayed Orbit
316
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Posted - 2015.12.22 14:46:03 -
[364] - Quote
why dont people just probe down the links and kill them?
its not as if it cant be done |
George Gouillot
Black Fox Marauders
92
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Posted - 2015.12.22 14:56:40 -
[365] - Quote
Bastion Arzi wrote:why dont people just probe down the links and kill them? its not as if it cant be done
Because this would involve effort. Whining on forum not that much. |
Oreb Wing
Black Fox Marauders
128
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Posted - 2015.12.22 15:13:58 -
[366] - Quote
Osoka's link is about making links spread by squad and not hierarchically trickle down to an entire wing, when you have skilled squad commanders. It's an interesting idea. It may be a solution, but you will only have five off grid boosters instead of one. It would be strange and I would rather see one ship boosting on-grid than encourage the already prevalent mindset that you must have additional accounts to be fully effective. Multiple accounts lead to burn out, imo.
There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom.
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Tung Yoggi
Garoun Investment Bank
116
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Posted - 2015.12.22 16:25:18 -
[367] - Quote
Stop clinging to your soon dead mechanic, fly free and lose implants, or get friends with leadership skills.
If you were used to a certain level of performance which won't be achievable "solo" after this god-blessed patch, prepare to adjust your expectations and everything will be fine.
The non-stop fake-solo links users will only be punished for sticking to a very specific kind of gameplay, which is quite a terrible idea when playing a MMO game whose developers keep on "balancing" every now and then.
Im pretty sure at least one of you has told "adapt or die" to someone in the same situation. It might be your turn now.
ps: i had an alt and sold it months ago, i'm well aware of the difference it makes |
Estella Osoka
Perkone Caldari State
951
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Posted - 2015.12.22 17:56:26 -
[368] - Quote
Tung Yoggi wrote:Stop clinging to your soon dead mechanic, fly free and lose implants, or get friends with leadership skills.
If you were used to a certain level of performance which won't be achievable "solo" after this god-blessed patch, prepare to adjust your expectations and everything will be fine.
The non-stop fake-solo links users will only be punished for sticking to a very specific kind of gameplay, which is quite a terrible idea when playing a MMO game whose developers keep on "balancing" every now and then.
Im pretty sure at least one of you has told "adapt or die" to someone in the same situation. It might be your turn now.
ps: i had an alt and sold it months ago, i'm well aware of the difference it makes
Welcome to the thread, and thanks for not reading any of what went on before. We'll treat your response with the same disregard you have for reading what went on before. |
Tung Yoggi
Garoun Investment Bank
116
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Posted - 2015.12.22 18:55:24 -
[369] - Quote
Oh i read quite a lot of it, sorry to contradict you. I have just not read anything that would convince me that keeping the game as it is regarding ogbs is a good idea.
Would I receive the same warm welcome if I showed another opinion, for instance being against the inevitable change to boosting mechanics ?
If you read my last post I'm hoping for something new and fresh that will make flying link ships interesting. I just wanted people.to stop beating the dead horse and look towards the future without the inevitable "muh links" and "muh precious playstyle" posts. |
Longdrinks
Leather Club Paisti Syndicate
221
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Posted - 2015.12.22 19:59:52 -
[370] - Quote
https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie/status/679385773511061508
Hope you didnt plan on orbiting at 5000km with oversized mwd on your link alt. |
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Oreb Wing
Black Fox Marauders
128
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Posted - 2015.12.22 21:06:05 -
[371] - Quote
lol.. Anchor on links!
Well, I just hope that they will add ...100) - 250 - 500 - 1000, etc. to grid warp selections.
There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom.
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Bastion Arzi
Angry Mustellid Decayed Orbit
318
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Posted - 2015.12.22 21:21:40 -
[372] - Quote
i was warned of this. |
Estella Osoka
Perkone Caldari State
955
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Posted - 2015.12.22 21:50:19 -
[373] - Quote
Longdrinks wrote:https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie/status/679385773511061508
Hope you didnt plan on orbiting at 5000km with oversized mwd on your link alt.
How cute, a twitter reply. Haven't seen a dev blog article on it yet though.
So far, still haven't seen a way they will balance this for hisec. Kinda hard to shoot a neutral alt flying links in hisec without getting Concorded. |
Demerius Xenocratus
Rapid Withdrawal
778
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Posted - 2015.12.23 02:34:24 -
[374] - Quote
Lucy Callagan wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Combat pilot + links > 5, 10 or more unlinked combat pilots is actually the problem. They'll never catch him...best case scenario is forcing him off temporarily with ewar and long range weapons.
Lol no, especially in low sec where ppl never go more than 2 jumps away their staging. D A N K refitting is so hard.
You literally cannot catch a linked, snaked, defensive scram-fit orthrus or garmur without links of your own. Unless he does something laughably stupid. The garmur does 11k hot and scrams at 25-26k with domination, the orthrus does 6k hot and kills frigates in 4 shots max (if you have a shield buffer fit with high resists).
You can make it leave grid with a griffin, maulus, or sniper corms but he can still harass you any time your fleet splits up or your ewar is out of position and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it short of having a virtue prober devoting 100% effort to forcing the booster to keep moving.
So you either need a vastly outsized investment of resources or a fully active player in a specific fit, just to achieve a standoff against a single pilot and his semi-afk alt.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Rapid Withdrawal
778
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Posted - 2015.12.23 02:47:18 -
[375] - Quote
George Gouillot wrote:Bastion Arzi wrote:why dont people just probe down the links and kill them? its not as if it cant be done Because this would involve effort. Whining on forum not that much.
If I'm going to multibox a max skilled prober with a virtue set, I would rather just buy a link alt. Because the first one is useful in a few narrow circumstances while the second makes my ship 30% better, 100% of the time, and requires far less active input.
Which is the entire problem. Links are ALWAYS the best choice over any other form of combat assistance alt. They provide the most benefit for the least risk. There's no tradeoff or incentive to choose something else. Before this OGB change was announced, when people asked what they should train their alt into, the unequivocal answer was always "links." Because the risk/reward on OGB is vastly superior to anything else you do with a multiboxed alt.
And when I see people who have flown both with and against links arguing that this isn't the case, it boggles my mind. Because it's just so obvious how broken they are, it shouldn't even require argument. Compared to logi, ecm, additional dps - the versatility and scope of benefit provided by links is on another planet. One logi or ecm ship pales in conparison to increased speed, EHP, point range, lock range, and sig radius reduction for an entire fleet while requiring far less pilot input.
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Estella Osoka
Perkone Caldari State
956
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Posted - 2015.12.23 03:17:40 -
[376] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:George Gouillot wrote:Bastion Arzi wrote:why dont people just probe down the links and kill them? its not as if it cant be done Because this would involve effort. Whining on forum not that much. If I'm going to multibox a max skilled prober with a virtue set, I would rather just buy a link alt. Because the first one is useful in a few narrow circumstances while the second makes my ship 30% better, 100% of the time, and requires far less active input. Which is the entire problem. Links are ALWAYS the best choice over any other form of combat assistance alt. They provide the most benefit for the least risk. There's no tradeoff or incentive to choose something else. Before this OGB change was announced, when people asked what they should train their alt into, the unequivocal answer was always "links." Because the risk/reward on OGB is vastly superior to anything else you do with a multiboxed alt. And when I see people who have flown both with and against links arguing that this isn't the case, it boggles my mind. Because it's just so obvious how broken they are, it shouldn't even require argument. Compared to logi, ecm, additional dps - the versatility and scope of benefit provided by links is on another planet. One logi or ecm ship pales in conparison to increased speed, EHP, point range, lock range, and sig radius reduction for an entire fleet while requiring far less pilot input.
Except a link alt can probe down someone running a DED-rated site. you know, so you can kill them, or take their site. Either way you win because you get the deadspace loot. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1642
|
Posted - 2015.12.23 04:52:47 -
[377] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:George Gouillot wrote:Bastion Arzi wrote:why dont people just probe down the links and kill them? its not as if it cant be done Because this would involve effort. Whining on forum not that much. If I'm going to multibox a max skilled prober with a virtue set, I would rather just buy a link alt. Because the first one is useful in a few narrow circumstances while the second makes my ship 30% better, 100% of the time, and requires far less active input.
The first one seems to be useful in a few situations, one of which is what you consider the biggest problem in the game.
From one side of your mouth you say that OGB are prolific and ruin gameplay all over new eden, and from the other side you say that a counter to boosts wouldnt be of much use.
I know why boosts make you angry and i know why you dont put effort in to counter them. Both are the same reason, you are lazy and dislike uncertainty. Personally, i have always admired people who put effort in to solve their problems rather than just complain. |
Bastion Arzi
Angry Mustellid Decayed Orbit
318
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Posted - 2015.12.23 09:22:16 -
[378] - Quote
you leave ur links in a safe you ARE taking a risk, u leave ur links on gate u ARE taking a risk same on a station now that command destroyers are here.
and u dont need a full probing set of implants that kill i posted i didnt have scanning implants. i guess he wasnt fit quite right but its still proof that not everyone is min maxing everything and that links can be killed.
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Estella Osoka
Perkone Caldari State
957
|
Posted - 2015.12.23 16:05:06 -
[379] - Quote
Bastion Arzi wrote:you leave ur links in a safe you ARE taking a risk, u leave ur links on gate u ARE taking a risk same on a station now that command destroyers are here.
and u dont need a full probing set of implants that kill i posted i didnt have scanning implants. i guess he wasnt fit quite right but its still proof that not everyone is min maxing everything and that links can be killed.
If a T3 is fit with ECCM mods, then he is running with a few less warfare links, since command processors take up mid slots and a lot of CPU.
Someone flying a T3C OGB for max boosts is going to be easy to scan down and have no tank. |
Lucy Callagan
SnaiLs aNd FroGs
31
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Posted - 2015.12.23 19:09:04 -
[380] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Lucy Callagan wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Combat pilot + links > 5, 10 or more unlinked combat pilots is actually the problem. They'll never catch him...best case scenario is forcing him off temporarily with ewar and long range weapons.
Lol no, especially in low sec where ppl never go more than 2 jumps away their staging. D A N K refitting is so hard. You literally cannot catch a linked, snaked, defensive scram-fit orthrus or garmur without links of your own. Unless he does something laughably stupid. The garmur does 11k hot and scrams at 25-26k with domination, the orthrus does 6k hot and kills frigates in 4 shots max (if you have a shield buffer fit with high resists). You can make it leave grid with a griffin, maulus, or sniper corms but he can still harass you any time your fleet splits up or your ewar is out of position and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it short of having a virtue prober devoting 100% effort to forcing the booster to keep moving. So you either need a vastly outsized investment of resources or a fully active player in a specific fit, just to achieve a standoff against a single pilot and his semi-afk alt.
rapier + keres, any decent gang has one of those (at least I often do)
Frugu.net
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Pestilen Ratte
Artimus Ratte
53
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Posted - 2015.12.24 01:40:58 -
[381] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:There are already mechanics out there if you want fair fights its called a duel.
Yes, that is true, but what about small gang fights?
I think one of the chief attractions of Eve is the idea of fighting in fleets, but the problem is that this ends up turning into blobs, or it gets perverted by god mode freaks with links.
I think the FW strucutre goes a long way to redressing the blobby problems and the problems of matched ship sizes, but it could maybe be made better.
I do agree with you that the general nefarious environment of Eve should be preserved. I do agree that there should be a time and a place for links, for blobs, for camps, and for the general hunting game.
However, developing the options for small gang warfare is also an interesting way to appeal to lots of folks.
If my corp could be pretty sure of having a few roughly balanced squad fights in a session, we would get online more often.
I think there are a lot of small corps like ours. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1646
|
Posted - 2015.12.24 06:32:02 -
[382] - Quote
Lots of people say this. I guess it should come as no surprise that all these people [put no effort in to creating such content by contacting each other and making it happen. They would rather polish their dream by whining on the forums for years until ccp gves them what they ask for. Blissfully unaware that they will still not get what they want and will just gt blobbed like they did before. |
Demerius Xenocratus
Rapid Withdrawal
778
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Posted - 2015.12.25 00:44:48 -
[383] - Quote
Lucy Callagan wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Lucy Callagan wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Combat pilot + links > 5, 10 or more unlinked combat pilots is actually the problem. They'll never catch him...best case scenario is forcing him off temporarily with ewar and long range weapons.
Lol no, especially in low sec where ppl never go more than 2 jumps away their staging. D A N K refitting is so hard. You literally cannot catch a linked, snaked, defensive scram-fit orthrus or garmur without links of your own. Unless he does something laughably stupid. The garmur does 11k hot and scrams at 25-26k with domination, the orthrus does 6k hot and kills frigates in 4 shots max (if you have a shield buffer fit with high resists). You can make it leave grid with a griffin, maulus, or sniper corms but he can still harass you any time your fleet splits up or your ewar is out of position and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it short of having a virtue prober devoting 100% effort to forcing the booster to keep moving. So you either need a vastly outsized investment of resources or a fully active player in a specific fit, just to achieve a standoff against a single pilot and his semi-afk alt. rapier + keres, any decent gang has one of those (at least I often do)
And for either of those to be effective you need...guess what? Links of your own.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Rapid Withdrawal
778
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Posted - 2015.12.25 00:51:54 -
[384] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:George Gouillot wrote:Bastion Arzi wrote:why dont people just probe down the links and kill them? its not as if it cant be done Because this would involve effort. Whining on forum not that much. If I'm going to multibox a max skilled prober with a virtue set, I would rather just buy a link alt. Because the first one is useful in a few narrow circumstances while the second makes my ship 30% better, 100% of the time, and requires far less active input. The first one seems to be useful in a few situations, one of which is what you consider the biggest problem in the game. From one side of your mouth you say that OGB are prolific and ruin gameplay all over new eden, and from the other side you say that a counter to boosts wouldnt be of much use. I know why boosts make you angry and i know why you dont put effort in to counter them. Both are the same reason, you are lazy and dislike uncertainty. Personally, i have always admired people who put effort in to solve their problems rather than just complain.
Once again, why would I invest the time and effort in a fully skilled prober with implants when links require the same investment, less effort and are far more broadly useful? They are always the best choice, out of any alt-performed role, because they provide by far the most benefit with the least risk and pilot input. You can continue to ignore that fact but that won't make it go away.
And I have hunted and killed links both on my own and with fleetmates, so please continue to call me lazy for pointing out that the effort and investment required to hunt them is inconsistent with the benefits they provide. Links are always the best option, with no disincentive or tradeoff; in a game allegedly about risk/reward that is clearly out of place.
For the record I am really sorry your garmur will be reduced to a measly 9k hot...but you'll just have to adapt or die, as they say.
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Potamus Jenkins
eXceed Inc.
159
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Posted - 2015.12.25 03:15:27 -
[385] - Quote
IMO OffGB do give small groups wanting to engage larger groups some force multiplier options but I feel this one benefit that may make PVP a little more dynamic doesnt outweigh some of the other problems presented by OGB. I look forward to the new strategies and metas that will be developed once we are using on grid links |
Thanatos Marathon
Black Fox Marauders
596
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Posted - 2015.12.25 04:10:28 -
[386] - Quote
Off grid boosters in POS's were and are (mining links) overpowered for their investment. Bringing them outside of the shield increased the risk to them quite a bit. Bringing them on grid as AoE makes them a tool almost exclusively for the crowd that can afford to dedicate an active pilot(s) to the role.
Will smaller groups (5-10) still use them? Yes. Will the solo guy use one on an alt instead of a falcon? I tend to doubt it, but we've gotta wait and see what sort of link affects they will have.
The Christmas thread last year was way better.
Black Fox Marauders is Recruiting
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Lucy Callagan
SnaiLs aNd FroGs
31
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Posted - 2015.12.25 10:39:51 -
[387] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
And for either of those to be effective you need...guess what? Links of your own.
Sorry but : no
Without links, a rapier can web @ 60 km cold while a triple damp keres can reduce the lock range to a sub-10 range even on a linked recon.
Regarding what you said i just wonder if you ever flown one of those...
Frugu.net
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Pestilen Ratte
Artimus Ratte
54
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Posted - 2015.12.30 02:20:26 -
[388] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Lots of people say this. I guess it should come as no surprise that all these people [put no effort in to creating such content by contacting each other and making it happen. They would rather polish their dream by whining on the forums for years until ccp gives them what they ask for. Blissfully unaware that they will still not get what they want and will just gt blobbed like they did before.
So let me get this straight: I am supposed to spend my time contacting people outside the game to arrange small gang duels. And they are going to agree to fair play because we are all jolly good gents with high standards of gamesmanship.
Are you high?
Crosi, I think you are letting your love of Eve cloud your vision. Look at how you play the game, in your own case. Linked up and solo.
Are YOU contacting all the smashing chaps who can't wait to meet you and your buddies for a duel?
It's fantasy. Not only is it fantasy, it is not what it says on the tin. EVE promotes itself as a sandbox where gangs of friends can engage in interesting PVP pew.
It does not say on the tin that EVE is a game where, of you don't have a job or need money, you can spend your life trying to organize space ship pew pew between likeable and forthright groups of smashing chaps who are, in fact, a most devious and wretched collection of rapacious pirates.
Look, you've lost your mind, so I will tell you a true story. There was a bear out in solitude who had the idea to organize a "frigate festival". The idea was that all the local industrial bears were going to enjoy pew pew amongst friends. Well this idea was supported by all the bears, and as the day drew closer, more and more local bears started fitting their favourite ships and planning all the fun they was going to have.
Then, as the time approached, everyone remembered where they were, and who they were.
Of course every industrial gang knew players from pirate gangs, and so the system became clogged with predatious frigate destroyers, just waiting to gank the happy bears at their happy little festival.
And the bears, being bears, saw the dark clouds on dscan, and they docked in station.
The point is, this is EVE. Suggesting that players honourably devise content is the same as suggesting that players get large groups of wide eyed noobs together in one play so that billion skill point linked up predators can gank them like sharks ripping into a bunch of baby seals.
It is absolutely up to CCP to build game mechanics, like plexes in FW, that provide the possibility of game mechanics that suit THE PAYING CUSTOMERS.
In fact, you suggesting that I go do this myself is a frank admission of how CCP have failed.
Asking the customer to build the product is selling them a kit.
Kit deals, where you build it yourself, are always a scam.
They are always a scam because if the thing worked after being built, the folks selling you the kit would have built it and sold it as a working thing.
Think of cars, toasters, rifles, software, or anything else that is a real thing people buy.
The only thing the paying customer needs to do is pay, and I have been paying. So have a lot of other people.
CCP need to sort it out. They wont be the first company to go broke selling a kit. |
Lucy Callagan
SnaiLs aNd FroGs WE FORM V0LTA
33
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Posted - 2015.12.30 02:31:34 -
[389] - Quote
So CCP is the Ikea of video games. Interesting....
Frugu.net
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Pestilen Ratte
Artimus Ratte
54
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Posted - 2015.12.30 04:13:04 -
[390] - Quote
Lucy Callagan wrote:So CCP is the Ikea of video games. Interesting....
What?
Ikea are cheaper than everyone else. EVE is the most expensive game around.
But, I like your thinking!
Make subscription 50 cents a month and leave it as a kit!
I would pay that, happily.
The problem is that we are paying through the nose for a product that doesn't really deliver what it says on the tin.
I have a nasty suspicion that the root problem is sheer laziness by CCP. They hide behind the "it's a sandbox" mantra to avoid criticisms for the lack of user friendly game play mechanics. Instead of investing in code that changes combat gameplay, like FW plexes, they produce more and more graphically impressive objects you can look at whilst spinning your ship in station. That is easier to do. So they do that.
The sandbox argument is so lame. Nothing about EVE is truly sandbox. Gate camps are created by deliberate game structure mechanics. So are FW plexes which restrict ship types. Eve the security divisions of space are arbitrary options decided by CCP. Players built none of the rules that dictate how the game play in combat operates.
Links, the subject of this thread, are a great example of this. How are links a "sandbox" innovation? What player built links? Links are the exact opposite of a sandbox innovation, because they mimic having extra players for money. Sure is strange to have a "buy god mode" option in a sandbox.
What CCP have done is gradually built a highly complex game environment that requires a certain type of game play, and they call it a sandbox to escape criticisms of it.
That leads to weird folk suggesting that it is up to the customer to generate game content, as if it is in the players power to design the end product.
That is the same as Ikea selling you a rough log and a saw, and calling it a deluxe table kit. For ten thousand bucks. |
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