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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Dianabolic
Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.01.10 16:25:00 -
[331]
Originally by: Ian Novarider Other things that can be learned from this war IMHO:
a) proper strontium level management in POS is extremely important (so that a reenforced POS comes out of reenforcement in a timezone where your alliance is strongest). Such stront management can and should be done even at the height of the enemy attack (so having a hauler character within POS shields that can log in at more or less any time helps).
b) a "standing" cyno chain network for rapid troop movement is a must
c) a Titan is VERY useful as a flying jump portal, as it allows you to bypass gatecamp blob traps. This gives your fleet many more tactical and strategical options.
d) Ship Replacement programs should be planned BEFORE a war (so this plan can be executed starting at day 1). Every delay in getting cheap replacement ships to your frontline pilots will cost ya.
e) Shared capital ships .... to allow the use of capital ships at ANY time, you might want to consider assigning teams of capital ship pilots (from different time zones) to corp owned capital ships. There are other ways of ensuring capital ship availability, but most of them are not allowed by CCP.
f) Many of your ships will be lost on their way to the frontline, usually to enemy interceptor wolfpacks. Convoys and convoy security (and the proper ships for the job) is an area you can train for before a war starts.
g) You can never have enough covert ops pilots (especially when they have probing experience too) (and whenever one of your gang pilots warps to zero to uncloak your own cov ops pilot, have him watch 200 episodes of "Denver Clan" , because thats the torture he deserves)
h) You can never have enough dictor pilots
Personal opinion, of course.
Have fun
Ian
Good post, kudos for your analysis of what you did wrong.
Good luck in fixing it :)
Quote: 2006.12.18 23:46:04 Notify Phoenix belonging to nOrAb self-destructs.
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Dr CapitalShip
Caldari Out Siders Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2007.01.10 16:39:00 -
[332]
Originally by: Ian Novarider Other things that can be learned from this war IMHO:
a) proper strontium level management in POS is extremely important (so that a reenforced POS comes out of reenforcement in a timezone where your alliance is strongest). Such stront management can and should be done even at the height of the enemy attack (so having a hauler character within POS shields that can log in at more or less any time helps).
b) a "standing" cyno chain network for rapid troop movement is a must
c) a Titan is VERY useful as a flying jump portal, as it allows you to bypass gatecamp blob traps. This gives your fleet many more tactical and strategical options.
d) Ship Replacement programs should be planned BEFORE a war (so this plan can be executed starting at day 1). Every delay in getting cheap replacement ships to your frontline pilots will cost ya.
e) Shared capital ships .... to allow the use of capital ships at ANY time, you might want to consider assigning teams of capital ship pilots (from different time zones) to corp owned capital ships. There are other ways of ensuring capital ship availability, but most of them are not allowed by CCP.
f) Many of your ships will be lost on their way to the frontline, usually to enemy interceptor wolfpacks. Convoys and convoy security (and the proper ships for the job) is an area you can train for before a war starts.
g) You can never have enough covert ops pilots (especially when they have probing experience too) (and whenever one of your gang pilots warps to zero to uncloak your own cov ops pilot, have him watch 200 episodes of "Denver Clan" , because thats the torture he deserves)
h) You can never have enough dictor pilots
Personal opinion, of course.
Have fun
Ian
I would probebly add in cost as well. If it costs your pilots 250-300mil to fit out a ship everyday, there is only so long he can handle that level of financial strain before they run off ratting insted of being in the front lines.
And if you hit a stage where you cannot get fleet pilots in the front lines fully fitted out with the correct gear, then you have lost the fleet battle before you even start.
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Ian Novarider
Eve Defence Force
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Posted - 2007.01.10 16:41:00 -
[333]
>>>> Good post, kudos for your analysis of what you did wrong. >>>>
Its mostly an analysis of what i have seen BoB do better than ASCN.
Hopefully others will train this before they go to war. It will improve their performance IMHO.
Have fun
Ian
Quote: Know thy enemy and know thyself and thou will be victorious in all thy battles.
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LUKEC
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.01.10 17:21:00 -
[334]
Edited by: LUKEC on 10/01/2007 17:22:01 Edited by: LUKEC on 10/01/2007 17:19:24 Actually never mind. it's not my task to enlighten certain people. -------- The BoB model is bad for business. Incidently the BoB model is more suited for a game such as WoW where as the ASCN model more suited for Eve.
McGreedy |
Ian Novarider
Eve Defence Force
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Posted - 2007.01.10 22:32:00 -
[335]
Hmm, some other things that might be worth mentioning IMHO ....
a) POS shield repping ...
alliances might want to train repping shields with carriers (with some carriers running the capital shield reppers and other carriers transferring juice to them). It IS a very efficient to kickstart a POS coming out of reenforcement. Of course, having a couple of med shield repper equipped Ospreys within POS shields also helps. Be sure to train keeping your ships right out of the POS shields, so they can quickly dive back into the protection of the shields if an enemy fleet decides to snipe your reppers. And even if they are webbed by suicide frigs.
b) Squadron, Wing and Fleet Commanders
Them having the right skills, ships and links improves your whole fleet. Its also NOT trivial for a non-PvP non-fleet-battle-experienced team to form up in a proper fleet. Expect some frustrating first tries that seem to take AGES.
c) Teamspeak Discipline
People WILL chat. Find a way to have them chat somewhere where it does not disturb fleet command giving orders. People WILL get excited. Be ready to mute and/or kick those that get too emotional and/or have their mike open and their children singing in the background and/or the occasional spy blasting Iron Maiden into your TS channel.
d) FC down and the pleasure of gang invites
In my experience fleet command does not have time to do gang invites. Too many channels open, information overload comes fast. Dedicated people (which are NOT fleet commanders) checking for people willing to join gang are worth their ships mass in gold.
Engagements can also fall apart fast if the FC of one side gets podded. Chain of command in case officers going down should be clear to everyone. Train it. Have FC stop talking and watch what happens. Consider having your FC in a cloaker (then you MAYBE need another one in a non cloaking ship calling out targets for the FC).
e) Node crashes
Train behaviour in heavy lag situations and after node crashes. Maybe join a large fleet battle somewhere to experience it. Optimize your EVE client and settings for quick relog.
f) The science of the last log in point
There are many tricks learned by experience to control where and how fast you log in after a node crash. It should NOT be at a gate you have just jumped too. Plenty of info about the in various threads here on the forum, but a lot of it in anectodal form, interwoven with rumour and hear-say. Test it.
g) The science of going to warp fast
Study how fast fleets can enter warp. It has a lot to do with the modules you choose for your ships. It has even more to do with training everyone to align to warp out point the very moment they arrive. Every second gained can mean life and death for whole fleets, especially in the Age of Titans.
I learned a lot in the past 5 months about fleet combat. It always amazes me how EVE shows you layer after layer of depth you have not seen or experienced before.
Have fun
Ian
Quote: Know thy enemy and know thyself and thou will be victorious in all thy battles.
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Lone Bear
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.01.10 23:04:00 -
[336]
Dont wanna sound harsh or seem smacking, but almost all what you wrote comes in mind directly or is available through blogs reading / forum reading. Anyway, nice summup.
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Ian Novarider
Eve Defence Force
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Posted - 2007.01.11 08:18:00 -
[337]
Originally by: Lone Bear Dont wanna sound harsh or seem smacking, but almost all what you wrote comes in mind directly or is available through blogs reading / forum reading. Anyway, nice summup.
Yes, thats the irony of it. Most of it is known. Has been known and discussed for quite some time.
But its not known to the mayority of the pilots. It may SOUND obvious, but it isnt to many. And - except for a select "few" with mostly PvP-specialization - it would need some effort within corps and alliances to educate and train their pilots.
Well, my naive self from 6 months ago - a 0.0 virgin - was not aware of 80 % of the things I mentioned in my previous posts. So it was an interesting, educating half year.
Have fun
Ian
Quote: Know thy enemy and know thyself and thou will be victorious in all thy battles.
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SARPIDON
Eve Defence Force
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Posted - 2007.01.11 10:00:00 -
[338]
Originally by: Ian Novarider
Originally by: Lone Bear Dont wanna sound harsh or seem smacking, but almost all what you wrote comes in mind directly or is available through blogs reading / forum reading. Anyway, nice summup.
Yes, thats the irony of it. Most of it is known. Has been known and discussed for quite some time.
But its not known to the mayority of the pilots. It may SOUND obvious, but it isnt to many. And - except for a select "few" with mostly PvP-specialization - it would need some effort within corps and alliances to educate and train their pilots.
Well, my naive self from 6 months ago - a 0.0 virgin - was not aware of 80 % of the things I mentioned in my previous posts. So it was an interesting, educating half year.
Have fun
Ian
Spot on Ian, good posts. Its so important to take lessons out of this it cannot be understated, and if others read your posts and let pride tell them we know this its all good, dont let it, learn it practise it and practise it some more. Only then will you stand a chance against the well oiled machine that is a BoB fleet. I walk away from this war having learnt the above the hard way. Those lessons tend to stick in the mind a little harder. To me this is a positive. Time will tell if I'm a better pilot for it, but I know for a fact I'm a wiser pilot now.
Sarp
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BlackRain
Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.01.11 15:16:00 -
[339]
There is some rather good analysis in this thread now, and I'd like to add one small thing to the whole "node crash" issue and the underlying reasons why we managed to come on top.
Many times the node crashed and we did the same ol' thing. Immediately logged back in and waited. Some of us made it, some of us didn't. However, many times I saw with my own eyes - or heard through TS - that during this logon phase we actually were severely outnumbered at the "crash site".
This is where the "average joe" of each side gets to show his quality. When there's no FCs around to hold your hand, you get dropped on a fairly laggy battlezone with a bunch of targets and the mission is to clear it, you need to not only be active, but proactive. This is something we did better than ASCN. Our average grunts are able to adapt fast, cope extended periods of time completely on their own, and most importantly, someone always steps up to coordinate. This counts even more than the "mechanical" side of the whole thing, as like I said, we many times were vastly outnumbered while logging in.
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Grainsalt
Free Corp
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Posted - 2007.01.11 15:34:00 -
[340]
This may be me just picking up on a rumour, but RE Teamspeak discipline, I heard that Molle/Shrike plays whale song down the TS... Surely not! ---
For T2 Tinfoil Hats, contact Grainsalt ingame.
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DB Preacher
Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.01.11 15:36:00 -
[341]
Originally by: Grainsalt This may be me just picking up on a rumour, but RE Teamspeak discipline, I heard that Molle/Shrike plays whale song down the TS... Surely not!
Worse, he plays Abba.
dbp
Caldari Alliance PVP Championship Winner Current RKK Ranking: (PSCAL6) Proficient Short Tanto
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Echo Falls
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Posted - 2007.01.11 15:39:00 -
[342]
Originally by: DB Preacher
Originally by: Grainsalt This may be me just picking up on a rumour, but RE Teamspeak discipline, I heard that Molle/Shrike plays whale song down the TS... Surely not!
Worse, he plays Abba.
dbp
/me puts on his tin foil hat again
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Ian Novarider
Eve Defence Force
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Posted - 2007.01.11 15:40:00 -
[343]
>>> Worse, he plays Abba. >>>
MAN, thats just MEAN !
What did he play ? "The winner takes it all" ?!
Have fun
Ian
Quote: Know thy enemy and know thyself and thou will be victorious in all thy battles.
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DB Preacher
Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.01.11 15:48:00 -
[344]
Edited by: DB Preacher on 11/01/2007 15:44:58
Originally by: Ian Novarider >>> Worse, he plays Abba. >>>
MAN, thats just MEAN !
What did he play ? "The winner takes it all" ?!
Have fun
Ian
Lots of abba, however, after we won the first caldari championships that was indeed the tune we requested and was then played on the (then) everadio commentary.
I can't listen to that song now without a small tear coming to my eye and thinking of Alasse's eagle holding on and somehow managing to take down the other two ships.
*sigh* memories!
dbp
Caldari Alliance PVP Championship Winner Current RKK Ranking: (PSCAL6) Proficient Short Tanto
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Ian Novarider
Eve Defence Force
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Posted - 2007.01.11 16:13:00 -
[345]
Well, give us some time to recover and there comes the time when he will play "Waterloo" ;-)
Have fun
Ian
Quote: Know thy enemy and know thyself and thou will be victorious in all thy battles.
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Leodeus
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Posted - 2007.01.11 16:35:00 -
[346]
Originally by: SirMolle Of the 4800 strong,.....
If ASCN actually had 4800 pilots willing to fight, this war wouldn't be over. Alts and extra accounts greatly exaggerate that figure.
Nonetheless, BoB defeated ASCN whatever the numbers were.
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Ian Novarider
Eve Defence Force
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Posted - 2007.01.11 16:38:00 -
[347]
Interesting question :
Is an industrialist alliance more alt heavy than a PvP alliance or is it vice versa ?
Have fun
Ian
Quote: Know thy enemy and know thyself and thou will be victorious in all thy battles.
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DB Preacher
Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.01.11 16:47:00 -
[348]
Originally by: Ian Novarider Interesting question :
Is an industrialist alliance more alt heavy than a PvP alliance or is it vice versa ?
Have fun
Ian
Check out the recent demographic post I made for an idea of how many alts we have: Demographics post
dbp
Caldari Alliance PVP Championship Winner Current RKK Ranking: (PSCAL6) Proficient Short Tanto
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Fuglife
TOUAREGS
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Posted - 2007.01.11 17:22:00 -
[349]
Edited by: Fuglife on 11/01/2007 17:18:46 Bob themselves as far as im aware had a small army of alts, at least it appeared that way. They would beat you up with their main then come kick you with the alt. Most frustrating ;) _____
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Fi T'Zeh
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.01.12 00:08:00 -
[350]
Must hurt to get kicked in the alts tbh. ....
Playing EVE on easy mode since May 2003. |
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Ian Novarider
Eve Defence Force
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Posted - 2007.01.12 08:08:00 -
[351]
Originally by: DB Preacher
Check out the recent demographic post I made for an idea of how many alts we have: Demographics post
dbp
There was a similar survey on the ASCN forum .... and the numbers sound almost exactly the same. So i think the answer is : "No significant difference."
Have fun
Ian
Quote: Know thy enemy and know thyself and thou will be victorious in all thy battles.
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pershphanie
The Scope
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Posted - 2007.01.12 09:38:00 -
[352]
Originally by: SirMolle
In conclusion, it took four weeks to break ASCN's will to fight, three weeks to conquer Paragon Soul, and four weeks to conquer Feythabolis. War quickly degraded to POS bashing and ganks as BoB went head to head with Strontium Clathrates, but a few memorable battles were had.
So I have to ask..
Does this mean Cyvok is going to let BoB keep Fountain after all? |
Tundaar
Minmatar Eve Defence Force
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Posted - 2007.01.12 10:31:00 -
[353]
Other points to consider - these are things that COULD have ben done by ASCN, but there was too much confusion internally and not enough clear commands. "Go Kill Bob" was not enough.
Lock down TS - We had many instances of people coming onto TS and disrupting operations (Warp to Gate, Singing, Yelling abuse so FC couldn't be heard) this took WAY to long to sort out
POS operations - Split POS between Corps to prevent avoid 0oy situations
Weed non-performers early. Whoever is logged in should be operational or their directors/CEO's should have given them permission not to be. If they are not give 'em one warning then kick 'em - a bit harsh but . . . One of the biggest morale failures was seeing 300 in alliance chat and 15 in gang in your home system
Don't play to enemy strengths - ASCN could field very few T2 fitted BS even at the beginning of the war - but we kep getting into engagements where we were consistently outranged. and trying to fighht on BoBs terms
Adapt quickly, Ditch non-working tactics fast, again major morale failures where yet another fleet gets killed using the same tactics that killed the last 3
Avoid Boredom. POS Sitting probably killed ASCN as much as anything. People just got stir crazy. Conflicting instructions from HC led to paralysis at an FC level often as peoeple thought that they couldn't run an OP without HC permission.
Avoid Boredom. DO NOT ORGANISE AN OP FOR A SPECIFIC TIME AND TNE LEAVE EVERYONE HANGING FOR 3 HOURS UNTIL IT KICKS OFF. Sigh - by the time the ops started half our pilots had to log to go to bed
LET PEOPLE LEARN - New people who stepped up to the plate to FC got abused when things went wrong, discouraging others from doing the same. NEWSFLASH: when fighting an elite PvP alliance you are gona lose ships, learn and move on.
Many opportunities for learning in the war - unfortunately we didn't learn or adapt fast enough. . . .and some paid WAY too much atention to these forums
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Touk
Shinra Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2007.01.12 11:07:00 -
[354]
Originally by: CallMe 8675309 Edited by: CallMe 8675309 on 05/01/2007 18:16:23
Originally by: Ikvar However many people post derogatory comments about BOB in this or any other threads, they can't deny that no one consistently (or every arguably) pull out the results or show the skill, teamwork and dedication that BOB do.
Sure we can. Red Alliance. GoonSwarm. AAA. BoB pick on isolated alliances like everybody else. The only thing that makes them "special" is the incredible amounts of propaganda spewed out on the forums by their leaders, plus the number of slav- I mean pets who buy into the myth that BoB can protect them from the rest of the universe when they're attacked. I think they're in for a pretty rude awakening when BoB are supposed to be protecting FORTY different stations throughout their regions when their leadership has alienated the rest of the game with its bluster.
Well, outside their mercenary pets in MC and their conquered vassals in FIX.
Edit: Oh and can't forget the slavering desperates in LV who will doubtlessly ally with BoB to save their own skin from the Russians soon enough, too.
Wow.....just wow. i mean what can you say to that.....just wow i think.
some people eh?!!! sometimes even i cant believe people as bitter as you obviously are havnt topped themselves.
FreeHugs |
aimez
Shinra Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2007.01.12 11:54:00 -
[355]
Harisdrop Gallente ClanKillers Dusk and Dawn Posted - 2007.01.05 17:52:00 - [8] - Quote I never realized how awesome you must feel. I guess your the first alliance to claim you destroyed an Alliance!
That is bolocks :)
Chimaera pact destoyed SBA a long time ago
yes it is true the name is still there
but take a look at this line
" SBA consists of 1 member corporations, 1 pilots reside under its sovereignty."
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aimez
Shinra Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2007.01.12 11:56:00 -
[356]
Edited by: aimez on 12/01/2007 11:54:20 Anyway, realy nice written and congratz to both sides
Bob won but i have to say i have respect for the Ascendant Frontier peeps who kept fighting to :)
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Boonaki
Caldari Suffoco Noctis
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Posted - 2007.01.12 13:22:00 -
[357]
the forum posts 2-3 years from now asking about ASCN should be fun.
Fear the Ibis of doom!
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ABURITORU
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Posted - 2007.01.13 03:58:00 -
[358]
nice speach...you bloody english:P
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Lyma
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Posted - 2007.01.14 07:17:00 -
[359]
I think the point is being missed when BOB members just doesn't understand why so many people want to see them crash and burn. It's not that we don't like winners or that we envy your "skills" it's just the fact we can't stand to here your smug self stroking comments. If you crushed everyone before you and kept a sliver of humility we'd slap you on the back and smile as we said awesome, just awesome. The funny thing is you end up spending so much time defending yourselves against the "haters" that don't see how you could enjoy your victories.
Of course too late now. Made yourselves the target of so much hate by screaming "we are god" from those soapboxes you carry around, instead of winning then going on about your business with a nod and a wink.
You are your own worst enemies and whether you know it or not there's a tide moving south driven by your own arrogance. Humility has it's own rewards... just a thought, personally have nothing against Bob besides the gooey self absorbed stuff spewed on here.. see ya out there
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Smith
Caldari Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.01.14 09:04:00 -
[360]
Originally by: Lyma I think the point is being missed when BOB members just doesn't understand why so many people want to see them crash and burn. It's not that we don't like winners or that we envy your "skills" it's just the fact we can't stand to here your smug self stroking comments. If you crushed everyone before you and kept a sliver of humility we'd slap you on the back and smile as we said awesome, just awesome. The funny thing is you end up spending so much time defending yourselves against the "haters" that don't see how you could enjoy your victories.
Of course too late now. Made yourselves the target of so much hate by screaming "we are god" from those soapboxes you carry around, instead of winning then going on about your business with a nod and a wink.
You are your own worst enemies and whether you know it or not there's a tide moving south driven by your own arrogance. Humility has it's own rewards... just a thought, personally have nothing against Bob besides the gooey self absorbed stuff spewed on here.. see ya out there
We appreciate the hatred tbh. We at DICE glady receive hate mails and posts. We even hate each other and rejoice when one of our own gets ganked.
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