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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 14 post(s) |
Odracir Atosc
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
12
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Posted - 2015.11.17 20:16:13 -
[241] - Quote
Suitonia wrote:Super cool
So you complain about OOG boosts and then you say super cool?
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Edward Olmops
DUST Expeditionary Team Good Sax
316
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 20:18:02 -
[242] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Lord Jasta wrote:Yet another item that can't be used in high sec, :( why not have this with a criminal timer? We really wanted to but even with a criminal timer you would pretty easily be able to destroy incursion fleets, which seemed over the top :(
C'mon... Why can't THEY scramble each other? Just a slight nerf. Incursion fleets are OP anyway... ;-) |
Catherine Laartii
Crimson Serpent Syndicate Heiian Conglomerate
621
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 20:19:16 -
[243] - Quote
Querns wrote:Torgeir Hekard wrote: While in low/null/wh you can shoot a dessie on sight, in hisec you have to patiently wait for it to finish flinging you/NPC out into the void before having a reasonable way to deal with the consequences (assuming it even gets any kind of flag for the trouble). You can't really suicide every command destroyer you meet out of probability it being after you.
Or, the MJFG could create a Suspect Flag upon activation. Pre-target any that land inside your dungeon, and if they go suspect, apply the Warp Scrambler. Then, switch targets, and take it to the MURDERZONE. Or you could read the part in the thread where it states explicitly that MJFG are banned from activation in hisec...
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Arla Sarain
700
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 20:19:23 -
[244] - Quote
Faltzs wrote:These ships ideally need to focus on a support role rather than being strong damage platforms, either allow 2 links or give boost to items like remote seboGÇÖs. Have you even bothered looking at the damage...? Both the corax and talwar have more effective turrets than the Stork or Bifrost.
The armor ones lack the drone HP bonus and will actually be easy to counter by the commonly advised "just shoot the drones" strategy |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2426
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 20:20:57 -
[245] - Quote
Catherine Laartii wrote:Querns wrote:Torgeir Hekard wrote: While in low/null/wh you can shoot a dessie on sight, in hisec you have to patiently wait for it to finish flinging you/NPC out into the void before having a reasonable way to deal with the consequences (assuming it even gets any kind of flag for the trouble). You can't really suicide every command destroyer you meet out of probability it being after you.
Or, the MJFG could create a Suspect Flag upon activation. Pre-target any that land inside your dungeon, and if they go suspect, apply the Warp Scrambler. Then, switch targets, and take it to the MURDERZONE. Or you could read the part in the thread where it states explicitly that MJFG are banned from activation in hisec...
Or you could read the comments out of context and debate at hand.... |
Rosal Milag
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
13
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 20:24:56 -
[246] - Quote
afkalt wrote: I swear I'm being trolled.
I do not need to outrun it, I need to move further than 6km away when the dessie is LOCKED to a vector. That's simple. Do you even know how MJDs work for gods sakes?
So..uh...don't be a bad and don't sit on the depot? Jesus god, I would have thought it was obvious but no, apparently not. Drop it if you get jumped, refit to MJD, jump back. Give no more f**ks. Good lord you're hard of thinking.
I'm not even going near the BUT MAH ISK/HOUR garbage you keep bleating about.
So you have a problem with a GANG of people being able to interfere with a SOLE player? Oh god no, not in an MMO, not on my watch!!!
Or kill that target first. Or MJD after it, if it is a solo guy (see above for a gang of people). It is absolutely NO DIFFERENT to someone popping that ship and nicking the drop. Not at all. They even go flashy too. Mission running as a profession hasn't died out, last I looked.
Alright. List all the battleships that can go 1+km/s from a dead stop. With only a MWD and no other prop mods.
If you get jumped, how are you able to refit to a MJD? Why can't the gankers reinforce your depot? Its only a suspect timer.
ISK/HOUR is a relevant argument when adjusting to the change handicaps it excessively. 10% Fine. 20% a bit rough. One ship and module causing your ISK/HOUR to drop by 30% or more? Love how the game is now designed around one ship and one module.
Jumping the target NPC away does a few things. One, it keeps it out of range of the mission runner to give him more time to work on it. Two, his buddies can warp directly to him and keep daisychaining it.
You are demanding answers of why it should not be allowed in high sec. The simplest one, the one I keep returning to is, this changes everything. Everything has to respond to it and be prepared for it. There has never been one module to have such an effect in the game's history in high security space.
Is it possible to prepare for? Yes. In hundreds of ways. Is it cheap to do so, yes. Is it something people could adapt to, yes. Same could be said for bombs, bubbles, and capitals. But the addition of the jump or any of these others fundamentally changes the way the game plays in high security and CCP doesn't want to shift the HS meta that much right now, in this way. |
Catherine Laartii
Crimson Serpent Syndicate Heiian Conglomerate
621
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 20:25:54 -
[247] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Catherine Laartii wrote:Querns wrote:Torgeir Hekard wrote: While in low/null/wh you can shoot a dessie on sight, in hisec you have to patiently wait for it to finish flinging you/NPC out into the void before having a reasonable way to deal with the consequences (assuming it even gets any kind of flag for the trouble). You can't really suicide every command destroyer you meet out of probability it being after you.
Or, the MJFG could create a Suspect Flag upon activation. Pre-target any that land inside your dungeon, and if they go suspect, apply the Warp Scrambler. Then, switch targets, and take it to the MURDERZONE. Or you could read the part in the thread where it states explicitly that MJFG are banned from activation in hisec... Or you could read the comments out of context and debate at hand.... Why wouldn't i? It's not like the devs take anything in these release threads seriously anyway, why should I? |
Kaelynne Rose
WTB Somalians
48
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 20:40:49 -
[248] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Lord Jasta wrote:Yet another item that can't be used in high sec, :( why not have this with a criminal timer? We really wanted to but even with a criminal timer you would pretty easily be able to destroy incursion fleets, which seemed over the top :( Where as currently incursion fleets are basically immune and have zero risk while printing plexes.
Risk=reward.
Incursion fleets NEED risk introduced man. You cant tell me with a straight face they dont/have balanced risk/reward man. |
Midori Tsu
Evolution Northern Coalition.
142
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 20:43:32 -
[249] - Quote
The lack of real counter game play is kind of worrying. Having to fit scrams on every ship is not going to be interesting. This is way too powerful to be put on a throwaway ship (i'm assuming these are going to be cheap because they're t2 destroyers). There needs to be some massive penalities to using this. |
DeadDuck
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
184
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 20:45:25 -
[250] - Quote
I can't imagine nothing worst to kill the small gangs roaming in deep hostile areas where your only way to survive is kitting then watch a cloud of intys instantly jump 100km and be on top of you.
And to make it even easier the only guy that has to be aligned to the target is the command dessie... orbit at 500m and wait for the dessie to activate the module. |
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Align Planet1
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
91
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 20:45:41 -
[251] - Quote
Do like the concept.
Do not like the name "Stork." Everyone will just call it the "Stroke." +1 to Random McNally for "Shrike." |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2426
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 20:48:09 -
[252] - Quote
Rosal Milag wrote:afkalt wrote: I swear I'm being trolled.
I do not need to outrun it, I need to move further than 6km away when the dessie is LOCKED to a vector. That's simple. Do you even know how MJDs work for gods sakes?
So..uh...don't be a bad and don't sit on the depot? Jesus god, I would have thought it was obvious but no, apparently not. Drop it if you get jumped, refit to MJD, jump back. Give no more f**ks. Good lord you're hard of thinking.
I'm not even going near the BUT MAH ISK/HOUR garbage you keep bleating about.
So you have a problem with a GANG of people being able to interfere with a SOLE player? Oh god no, not in an MMO, not on my watch!!!
Or kill that target first. Or MJD after it, if it is a solo guy (see above for a gang of people). It is absolutely NO DIFFERENT to someone popping that ship and nicking the drop. Not at all. They even go flashy too. Mission running as a profession hasn't died out, last I looked.
Alright. List all the battleships that can go 1+km/s from a dead stop. With only a MWD and no other prop mods.
Unfit, even an abaddon can. I'm not sure there is one that can't, actually.
Rosal Milag wrote:If you get jumped, how are you able to refit to a MJD? Why can't the gankers reinforce your depot? Its only a suspect timer.
Oh so now there's a gang? Way to move the goalposts. Why are they not just ganking the mission bear? Maybe because....no-one will use T2 ships for that, plus there is not a single reason to move ANYONE in a mission for a gank. Not one.
And these mission runners, not watching for probes? Not seeing an armada incoming and can't warp out? Right. Ok.
You are clutching at straws and moving the goalposts when caught out.
Rosal Milag wrote:ISK/HOUR is a relevant argument when adjusting to the change handicaps it excessively. 10% Fine. 20% a bit rough. One ship and module causing your ISK/HOUR to drop by 30% or more? Love how the game is now designed around one ship and one module.
One module on a ship you may never even see. Carry an alternate fitting, it's not rocket science. It doesn't handicap a damn thing any more than me warping out when I see a dozen thrashers on a short scan.
It's only a handicap if you ALLOW it to be, or are generally just bad.
They could put these in the game tomorrow and my high sec mission income would not even move. Not an inch.
Rosal Milag wrote:Jumping the target NPC away does a few things. One, it keeps it out of range of the mission runner to give him more time to work on it. Two, his buddies can warp directly to him and keep daisychaining it.
Only in an ungated mission and honestly, people won't do that, it's simpler and easier to pop the rat and steal the loot. Something only really done in cosmos missions these days. Point is, this is doable TODAY with the same ramifications but with less exposure.
It changes very little for the bad. It rewards the prepared, this is good. It rewards cooperation, this is good and it punishes the sloppy, the lazy and the feckless. This is also good. It creates options for dealing with otherwise impossible situations (docking games, for one) this is also good.
You've made a plethora of bad excuses revolving around isk/hour and absolute edge cases, demonstrated a terrible understanding of game mechanics from ganking to missions and constantly assumed the "victim" is utterly brain dead and not remotely competent whilst painting the gankers as superhuman monsters who can elegant interweave both alignment and server ticks 100% perfectly, can go from one guy to a fleet when it suits.
Honestly, it's a pretty poor show, you've basically got nothing beyond (a wildly hyperbolic) "don't take away my isk/hour". Which is fine, but that's not a reason to not introduce a mod. |
Allison A'vani
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
171
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 20:51:19 -
[253] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Rosal Milag wrote:afkalt wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Lord Jasta wrote:Yet another item that can't be used in high sec, :( why not have this with a criminal timer? We really wanted to but even with a criminal timer you would pretty easily be able to destroy incursion fleets, which seemed over the top :( It's not over the top. It's hilarious and moreover, some needed risk to that community. When there is no counterplay, its over the top. Specifically referring to the ability of these destroyers to warp into an incursion fight, activate without anyone stopping them and killing the fleet as the logi is now 100km away and useless. In low and null, as soon as the destroyer lands, its able to be killed. In high sec, you get concorded. Even a criminal timer when it activates isn't enough, both for the fleet to kill it or for it to activate before concord kills it in certain systems. There is instant counterplay. You can scram it, thus shutting off the module AND tackling the ship. Which is both flashy and surrounded by several thousand DPS. It'll have a bad time. Again, if you can expect combat fleets to do this, you can JUST as easily expect incursion fleets to do this. ed: And it should only go suspect, imo.
There is zero counter play to this. Have you ever tried to lock a saber or an interceptor while under 10% TiDi? You can't, unless the pilot is completely ********. Unless this module massively blooms your sig, this will be a huge detriment to large fights.
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2426
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 20:55:17 -
[254] - Quote
Allison A'vani wrote:
There is zero counter play to this. Have you ever tried to lock a saber or an interceptor while under 10% TiDi? You can't, unless the pilot is completely ********. Unless this module massively blooms your sig, this will be a huge detriment to large fights.
Well considering all the other mjds do....why would it not? |
Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
244
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 20:58:30 -
[255] - Quote
Kaelynne Rose wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Lord Jasta wrote:Yet another item that can't be used in high sec, :( why not have this with a criminal timer? We really wanted to but even with a criminal timer you would pretty easily be able to destroy incursion fleets, which seemed over the top :( Where as currently incursion fleets are basically immune and have zero risk while printing plexes. Risk=reward. Incursion fleets NEED risk introduced man. You cant tell me with a straight face they dont/have balanced risk/reward man.
They are balanced the way CCP wants them to be. |
Rivr Luzade
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
2109
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 20:59:20 -
[256] - Quote
Kaelynne Rose wrote:Where as currently incursion fleets are basically immune and have zero risk while printing plexes.
Risk=reward.
Incursion fleets NEED risk introduced man. You cant tell me with a straight face they dont/have balanced risk/reward man. A couple of Thrashers can wreck any incursion ship inside the incursion sites. A Blackbird can jeopardize an entire fleet if they jam the logis just long enough. Don't confuse your own lack of imagination and knowledge with facts and make people believe that risk-inducing activities are not applied on the server.
UI Improvement Collective
My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2426
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 21:00:14 -
[257] - Quote
Lady Rift wrote:Kaelynne Rose wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Lord Jasta wrote:Yet another item that can't be used in high sec, :( why not have this with a criminal timer? We really wanted to but even with a criminal timer you would pretty easily be able to destroy incursion fleets, which seemed over the top :( Where as currently incursion fleets are basically immune and have zero risk while printing plexes. Risk=reward. Incursion fleets NEED risk introduced man. You cant tell me with a straight face they dont/have balanced risk/reward man. They are balanced the way CCP wants them to be.
Yeah but so were a lot of things, until they weren't. |
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
319
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 21:00:31 -
[258] - Quote
Onslaughtor wrote:I absolutely love these things. I have a few questions tho about them which I haven't seen answered yet.
Does the pwg reduction for links apply to command possessors as well?
Can it jump/blink a marauders in bastion? If so that sees a little unfair, and could we get a reasoning for it?
Battleships will have a very hard time countering these things, even with support , could a special active module be made to allow battleships to self scramble? Thoughts? Perhaps battleships and BCs could have a module which has an AEO scramble affect. I'm all for adding unique BS and BC modules and that would be super useful not only as a counter to these command destroyers, but also in general.
Modulated ECM Effects
An Alternative to Skill Trading
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Rosal Milag
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
13
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 21:05:12 -
[259] - Quote
Quote:
Only in an ungated mission and honestly, people won't do that, it's simpler and easier to pop the rat and steal the loot. Something only really done in cosmos missions these days. Point is, this is doable TODAY with the same ramifications but with less exposure.
It changes very little for the bad. It rewards the prepared, this is good. It rewards cooperation, this is good and it punishes the sloppy, the lazy and the feckless. This is also good. It creates options for dealing with otherwise impossible situations (docking games, for one) this is also good.
You've made a plethora of bad excuses revolving around isk/hour and absolute edge cases, demonstrated a terrible understanding of game mechanics from ganking to missions and constantly assumed the "victim" is utterly brain dead and not remotely competent whilst painting the gankers as superhuman monsters who can elegant interweave both alignment and server ticks 100% perfectly, can go from one guy to a fleet when it suits.
Honestly, it's a pretty poor show, you've basically got nothing beyond (a wildly hyperbolic) "don't take away my isk/hour". Which is fine, but that's not a reason to not introduce a mod.
Then why not look at the newbie? High sec is consensual pvp with the exception suicide ganks and MTU/depots. This action clearly is a PvP action and should be counted as a criminal action. The net effect is equivalent to applying a web to someone, but still gets you concorded.
If jumping anyone not a valid target gives you a criminal timer, I'd be all for it. Similar to smartbomb use in High Sec. As that would require coordination and sacrifice on the part of the ganker and not just jumps for the lulz.
My arguments about ganking revolve mainly around the miniluv and code freighter ganks. If they will kill empty T1 freighters, a white knight command destroyer isn't going to save any ship they target. Especially in light of hyperdunking history. The regen of shields on a freighter is so low that you can gank a ship with under critical numbers and just keep bumping it away. Granted it leaves more time for someone to white knight. But hitting a target with fewer ships than necessary to pop the target doesn't mean its a failed gank. Just means a reset and reattack.
Please make a good argument for a suspect only timer. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2428
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 21:19:25 -
[260] - Quote
Rosal Milag wrote:Quote:
Only in an ungated mission and honestly, people won't do that, it's simpler and easier to pop the rat and steal the loot. Something only really done in cosmos missions these days. Point is, this is doable TODAY with the same ramifications but with less exposure.
It changes very little for the bad. It rewards the prepared, this is good. It rewards cooperation, this is good and it punishes the sloppy, the lazy and the feckless. This is also good. It creates options for dealing with otherwise impossible situations (docking games, for one) this is also good.
You've made a plethora of bad excuses revolving around isk/hour and absolute edge cases, demonstrated a terrible understanding of game mechanics from ganking to missions and constantly assumed the "victim" is utterly brain dead and not remotely competent whilst painting the gankers as superhuman monsters who can elegant interweave both alignment and server ticks 100% perfectly, can go from one guy to a fleet when it suits.
Honestly, it's a pretty poor show, you've basically got nothing beyond (a wildly hyperbolic) "don't take away my isk/hour". Which is fine, but that's not a reason to not introduce a mod.
Then why not look at the newbie? High sec is consensual pvp with the exception suicide ganks and MTU/depots. This action clearly is a PvP action and should be counted as a criminal action. The net effect is equivalent to applying a web to someone, but still gets you concorded. If jumping anyone not a valid target gives you a criminal timer, I'd be all for it. Similar to smartbomb use in High Sec. As that would require coordination and sacrifice on the part of the ganker and not just jumps for the lulz. My arguments about ganking revolve mainly around the miniluv and code freighter ganks. If they will kill empty T1 freighters, a white knight command destroyer isn't going to save any ship they target. Especially in light of hyperdunking history. The regen of shields on a freighter is so low that you can gank a ship with under critical numbers and just keep bumping it away. Granted it leaves more time for someone to white knight. But hitting a target with fewer ships than necessary to pop the target doesn't mean its a failed gank. Just means a reset and reattack. Please make a good argument for a suspect only timer.
Hyperdunking or undermanned ganking would still use bumpers because of the headcount, the MJD cooldown timer, the fact the bumper is protected by concord and the dessies would not be. Hell ganking as a whole will still use bumpers, it's a 3 minute cooldown on MJD mods, that's an eternity, you would need a fair few to make that work. More efficient, safer and predictable to continue using bumping machs.
As for suspect: Because criminal is binary, it doesn't really create good interaction opportunities.
It also basically kills all the nifty uses of this I already listed.
When you think about it, there are most of equivalents these in game already. Not all, but most and they have suspect/no flagging attached.
>Nicking mission rats/items is analogous to ninja looting and that is suspect.
>Moving ships around against their will is essentially bumping which carries no flagging at all (albeit the reasons may be mechanical rather than intention). No problem with a "mass bump" carrying a flag, that is reasonable.
Most important thing is, it's a dial that can be turned. It could start suspect then go criminal if it was really bad or LATER removed from highsec if that was still not enough. Banning it outright, out of the gate means we will never know and an opportunity is lost. |
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Captain StringfellowHawk
Forsaken Reavers Goonswarm Federation
272
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 21:22:03 -
[261] - Quote
Catherine Laartii wrote:CCP Rise wrote:MAGUSGallente Destroyer Per Level: 10% Bonus to Drone Damage 4% bonus to armor resists Command Destroyer Per Level: 2% to Armor and Skirmish Warfare link effectiveness 5% reduction in MJFG spool up time Role: 95% Reduction in Powergrid Requirements for Warfare Links Role: 50% Reduction in MWD Penalty Signature Bloom Role: Can fit Micro Jump Field Generators Role: Can fit one Warfare Link PONTIFEXAmarr Destroyer per Level: 10% Bonus to Drone Damage 4% bonus to Armor Resistances Command Destroyer per Level: 2% to Armor and Information Warfare link effectiveness 5% reduction in MJFG spool up time Role: 95% Reduction in Powergrid Requirements for Warfare Links Role: 50% Reduction in MWD Penalty Signature Bloom Role: Can fit Micro Jump Field Generators Role: Can fit one Warfare Link STORKCaldari Destroyer per Level: 10% to Rocket and Light Missile Damage 4% Bonus to Shield Resistances Command Destroyer per Level: 2% to Siege and Information link effectiveness per level 5% reduction in MJFG spool up time Role: 95% Reduction in Powergrid Requirements for Warfare Links Role: 50% Reduction in MWD Penalty Signature Bloom Role: Can fit Micro Jump Field Generators Role: Can fit one Warfare Link BIFROSTMinmatar Destroyer per Level: 10% bonus to Rocket and Light Missile Damage 4% bonus to shield resists Command Destroyer per Level: 2% to Siege and Skirmish Warfare link effectiveness 5% reduction in MJFG spool up time Role: 95% Reduction in Powergrid Requirements for Warfare Links Role: 50% Reduction in MWD Penalty Signature Bloom Role: Can fit Micro Jump Field Generators Role: Can fit one Warfare Link And for their attributes I'm using a google doc this time for better readability: ATTRIBUTESThanks ! Ok, so several things stand out to me here as alarming and needing immediate change. 1. The Stork? Seriously? That's the BEST animal/bird name you could come up with? Did you swindled by a Caldari merchant as a child or something? 2. If these are getting full resists, then the Gallente and Minmatar Command dessies should get an active tanking bonus like the command ships, which do just fine with active tanking (especially the sleipnir). 3. Give the Magus and Pontifex 4 turrets (while removing the launchers), and apply bonuses as listed below. 4. The MJFG field is completely redundant and wastes a bonus to the ship; you can either increase the spool-up reduction into the skill itself or remove it and leave it as-is. Here is what you should replace it with on each ship: -Magus gets 10% bonus hybrid turret damage per level -Pontifex gets 10% bonus to laser turret damage per level -Stork (gag PLEASE choose another name) gets 10% to missile velocity per level -Bifrost gets 10% to missile velocity per level 5. Change PG values to -Magus and Bifrost get 60 base PG each -Stork (again, change the ******* name) gets 65 base pg -Pontifix gets 75 base pg 6. The speed values are really weird. Magus and Stork (or whatever else it's going to get its name changed to) should get their max speed values exchanged, and Magus and Bifrost should get their total mass amounts exchanged. Please consider these. ESPECIALLY RENAMING THE STORK. +100 |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2428
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 21:24:40 -
[262] - Quote
In fact, this should MOST DEFINITELY carry a suspect flag so I can't bounce a fleet off a lowsec gate under gate gun protection.
They should be able to shoot me without angering the gate guns if I'm about to port their fleet, or part of it, away. |
Captain StringfellowHawk
Forsaken Reavers Goonswarm Federation
273
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 21:30:31 -
[263] - Quote
Nou Mene wrote:why is ppl discussing hs uses of it when ccp said it was banned from hs?
also missions needs to be scanned, from the moment you get there to when the dessie would be bothering you, you have a couple minutes (if that player is completely focused on ruining you), if you taking much more than that to run one mission (L4) then i'll get worried about my isk/hr in some other aspects (i used to run L4 in a pvp drake in LS, and/or t2 mach in HS, and it cant get any easier)
Because the only reason this new module cant be used in hi-sec is due to a niche crowd. The rest who use hi-sec have to be cut off. As you can see from the incursion runner posts, they are incapable of adjusting to game changes and have prior secured RISE's assistance via secret financial aide to secure future additions to the game do not affect their game play. As long as Incursion runners continue to back Rise. Hi-sec will suffer and be denied future additions like this to the game. As he said, this cant be allowed due to Incursion runners. |
Captain StringfellowHawk
Forsaken Reavers Goonswarm Federation
273
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 21:33:26 -
[264] - Quote
Catherine Laartii wrote:afkalt wrote:Catherine Laartii wrote:Querns wrote:Torgeir Hekard wrote: While in low/null/wh you can shoot a dessie on sight, in hisec you have to patiently wait for it to finish flinging you/NPC out into the void before having a reasonable way to deal with the consequences (assuming it even gets any kind of flag for the trouble). You can't really suicide every command destroyer you meet out of probability it being after you.
Or, the MJFG could create a Suspect Flag upon activation. Pre-target any that land inside your dungeon, and if they go suspect, apply the Warp Scrambler. Then, switch targets, and take it to the MURDERZONE. Or you could read the part in the thread where it states explicitly that MJFG are banned from activation in hisec... Or you could read the comments out of context and debate at hand.... Why wouldn't i? It's not like the devs take anything in these release threads seriously anyway, why should I?
That is true, they do pay more attention to reddit. the final adjustments to the ships almost always from from /r/eve discussions. It's their preferred communications platform. |
Rosal Milag
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
15
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 21:47:33 -
[265] - Quote
afkalt wrote:
Hyperdunking or undermanned ganking would still use bumpers because of the headcount, the MJD cooldown timer, the fact the bumper is protected by concord and the dessies would not be. Hell ganking as a whole will still use bumpers, it's a 3 minute cooldown on MJD mods, that's an eternity, you would need a fair few to make that work. More efficient, safer and predictable to continue using bumping machs.
As for suspect: Because criminal is binary, it doesn't really create good interaction opportunities.
It also basically kills all the nifty uses of this I already listed.
When you think about it, there are most of equivalents these in game already. Not all, but most and they have suspect/no flagging attached.
>Nicking mission rats/items is analogous to ninja looting and that is suspect.
>Moving ships around against their will is essentially bumping which carries no flagging at all (albeit the reasons may be mechanical rather than intention). No problem with a "mass bump" carrying a flag, that is reasonable.
Most important thing is, it's a dial that can be turned. It could start suspect then go criminal if it was really bad or LATER removed from highsec if that was still not enough. Banning it outright, out of the gate means we will never know and an opportunity is lost.
Moving someone without their consent, (fleet warps have consent as you accepted the fleet invitation and then the allow fleet warps option) shouldn't result in a scenario they are immediately destroyed or helpless to escape. A bump will not result in your ship being tackled by NPCs and subsequently destroyed. A MJD jump can. By removing the logi from the incursion group, ships melt and anyone tackled can't warp off. By moving a missioner into the dead center of a spawn normally means they will be tackled and killed by the NPCs. A bump for ganking doesn't necessarily mean you are done and helpless, as there is significant counterplay.
As far as dials go, high sec isn't the place to introduce new modules and tactics. Start in null and work your way to high sec. Something that would carry this much consequence for the victims should not begin usage in the largest concentration of new players in the game. Titan doomsdays were only just allowed into low sec. Disruptive technology should not be released in a distributed manner without seeing how the community uses it. |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1950
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Posted - 2015.11.17 21:53:32 -
[266] - Quote
DeadDuck wrote:I can't imagine nothing worst to kill the small gangs roaming in deep hostile areas where your only way to survive is kitting then watch a cloud of intys instantly jump 100km and be on top of you. And to make it even easier the only guy that has to be aligned to the target is the command dessie... orbit at 500m and wait for the dessie to activate the module.
You are right, this is going to make for awesome gameplay.
In your example, the only person who actually gets caught is someone microwarpdriving straight away from a gang that is 30km from him. If he stays in a straight line, they can land on top of him. But if he is further away than that, they can only land on him if he is stationary at 100km. The kiting pilot would simply have to manually change direction every so often. So, it benefits skilled pilots who can manually pilot and dodge this device. I exempt myself from that category (skilled pilots).
CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2431
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Posted - 2015.11.17 21:57:46 -
[267] - Quote
Rosal Milag wrote:afkalt wrote:
Hyperdunking or undermanned ganking would still use bumpers because of the headcount, the MJD cooldown timer, the fact the bumper is protected by concord and the dessies would not be. Hell ganking as a whole will still use bumpers, it's a 3 minute cooldown on MJD mods, that's an eternity, you would need a fair few to make that work. More efficient, safer and predictable to continue using bumping machs.
As for suspect: Because criminal is binary, it doesn't really create good interaction opportunities.
It also basically kills all the nifty uses of this I already listed.
When you think about it, there are most of equivalents these in game already. Not all, but most and they have suspect/no flagging attached.
>Nicking mission rats/items is analogous to ninja looting and that is suspect.
>Moving ships around against their will is essentially bumping which carries no flagging at all (albeit the reasons may be mechanical rather than intention). No problem with a "mass bump" carrying a flag, that is reasonable.
Most important thing is, it's a dial that can be turned. It could start suspect then go criminal if it was really bad or LATER removed from highsec if that was still not enough. Banning it outright, out of the gate means we will never know and an opportunity is lost.
Moving someone without their consent, (fleet warps have consent as you accepted the fleet invitation and then the allow fleet warps option) shouldn't result in a scenario they are immediately destroyed or helpless to escape. A bump will not result in your ship being tackled by NPCs and subsequently destroyed. A MJD jump can. By removing the logi from the incursion group, ships melt and anyone tackled can't warp off. By moving a missioner into the dead center of a spawn normally means they will be tackled and killed by the NPCs. A bump for ganking doesn't necessarily mean you are done and helpless, as there is significant counterplay.
Precisely, this is why bumping has no flags but this should.
Lets leave incursion out of it since we've already demonstrated fairly clearly that it is a) trivial to stop and b) boils down to a question of isk/hour.
Missions only have tackle in frigates, and they get to you fairly quickly. It's highly, HIGHLY unlikely you can be MJDd into tackle frigates with no counterplay. I cannot think of a single one (to be fair I ignore faction kill missions) where that would even be possible. Unless the missioner MJD himself away at the start, in which case he will have 100km of deadspace for the dessie to burn before he can align and warp - basically impossible.
Indeed, I can think of but a handful of missions where the rats start at 100km away and none where they're actually a threat at that range.
Plus remember there's nothing stopping the rats from deciding to vaporize the destroyer, either. It's a hell of a punt for the small ship which (if you are correct and you somehow do manage to land it in tackle) might get webbed and die horribly.
Significant counterplay AFTER a bump? Are you mad? There is exactly ONE play and one play alone - get an alt/friend out ahead of you and hope you get the align right for a warp to them. This would also work just fine for these mods, so....not seeing the issue.
Or perhaps you mean the pre-emptive counterplay of webbing, or scouting and not jumping if known bad 'uns are around? Well, scouting is still viable and simply replace "web", with "scram" and the protection is entirely unchanged.
Rosal Milag wrote:As far as dials go, high sec isn't the place to introduce new modules and tactics. Start in null and work your way to high sec. Something that would carry this much consequence for the victims should not begin usage in the largest concentration of new players in the game. Titan doomsdays were only just allowed into low sec. Disruptive technology should not be released in a distributed manner without seeing how the community uses it.
Again it only carries consequences to the unprepared and the unwilling to adapt. People getting regularly stomped by this need to reassess their behaviour every bit as much as a 50 billion autopiloting freighter does. |
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
319
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Posted - 2015.11.17 21:59:20 -
[268] - Quote
Captain StringfellowHawk wrote:That is true, they do pay more attention to reddit. the final adjustments to the ships almost always from from /r/eve discussions. It's their preferred communications platform.
Topic has been completely derailed by a stupid discussion about MMJD being used in high sec which isn't going to happen. No wonder Devs refer to reddit despite the fact I think the contributions to eve forums are generally better and more well informed.
Modulated ECM Effects
An Alternative to Skill Trading
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Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
294
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Posted - 2015.11.17 22:01:41 -
[269] - Quote
+1 to renaming the Stork. Don't let such an awesome looking ship have such a lame name! Shrike would be much better :)
As for the ship stats. They sound fun and interesting, not read enough to comment on balance though. When they are released can the balance be closely watched so we don't end up with a repeat of what has happened with other recent new ships (T3Ds) being released OP and not getting reigned in for a long time? |
Michael Oskold
Collapsed Out Pandemic Legion
15
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Posted - 2015.11.17 22:16:04 -
[270] - Quote
the leaqs in this thread are delicious. |
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