Pages: 1 [2] 3 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Ross Lorax
All-Out White Stag Exit Bag
0
|
Posted - 2015.11.18 07:15:10 -
[31] - Quote
Maqari Kinraysuwa wrote:A number of people say Oruze are pricks Even drunken slavs, who are dumb as bricks Truly we're pretty great When you eat our procurer bait It's come to light that SSC have tiny baby dicks
Truly an American hero.
|
Timm3h
Oruze Cruise White Stag Exit Bag
96
|
Posted - 2015.11.18 07:31:31 -
[32] - Quote
Jakamo Diamond wrote:Timm3h wrote:
What part of this are you not understanding? I get the fact that the capitals you want to push from low class to high class are for countering high class capitals. I get the fact that you want low to high connections to be magical one way streets for low-class citizens. I'm a low-class citizen, and I'm telling you that your idea is ignorant and it will not work out this way.
What you are not grasping is that even if a low class group doesn't want to field capitals, it still does change things for you. Just like your corp parrot said, what if you were to use a C5 as a battlefield where both sides field caps? Well, my corp doesn't feel like fielding caps, and your corp obviously does. Ding, another instance where neither corp gets content. I don't feel like engaging a fleet that has capital support, and you can't move your capital ship from the c5 battlefield between us to our home hole to try and force an engagement further. Zero content.
There is nothing here. This entire topic and ideas contained within hold no substance beyond the confirmation that you and yours stand alongside moronic and undeveloped ideas vehemently.
Again, I reiterate for your edification: go live in high-class wormholes if you want to play with caps, and leave low-class WHs alone.
Regards, Tim Ruse Cruiser 342 GBP
You dont seem to be grasping the concept at hand... and are offering very little in the way of useful feedback. I suggest you go read my post. Just because an idea changes the way some play the game doesnt mean it changes the way you play it. And quite frankly, just because it is a change doesnt mean it is a negative change. It doesnt lessen the legitimacy of the idea at all, and you have given no other reason against it besides "waah I'm scared of caps." If youre arranging fights in an adjoining WH anyways, chances are you can just say you dont have caps to bring.
You seem to think that my disagreement with the idea proposed by the original poster is equivalent to my misunderstanding of what was posted. Miraculously, through luck and sheer will, I have deciphered the broken English contained in the original post. The burden of proof isn't on me to prove every example where this idea will fall, instead it is on you to prove that this will benefit players more than it will penalize them. Your inability to do so leads everyone here to believe that this garbage is incomplete, and having weeks to think about this idea did nothing to improve it.
What you completely and utterly fail to understand is game mechanics that change the way others play the game ALSO changes the way I play the game. Are you going to try to tell me for even half a second that the discovery of hyper-dunking didn't change the way freighter pilots played this game? That this new option to suicide ganking pilots would benefit them without having a negative effect on any of their targets? The fact that supporters of this underdeveloped idea would even attempt to posit such a claim is embarrassing at best, and shows how much of a poorly-trained monkey you really are.
Perhaps it is time to admit that this idea was brewed up by morons, propagated by cretins, and defended by another line member vegetable that has to pretend her opinion is the be-all and end-all of wormhole gameplay mechanics knowledge.
Yours in Joruzesalem, Tim CEO of Oruze Cruise 342 GBP Cap pilot by choice |
Celthric Kanerian
Ascendance Of New Eden Workers Trade Federation
530
|
Posted - 2015.11.18 08:14:25 -
[33] - Quote
Except lorewise this doesn't make sense.... WH's aren't located next to eachother like regular systems. They're scattered all over somewhere. |
ISD Max Trix
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
0
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 02:02:04 -
[34] - Quote
Locked for Cleaning
ISD Max Trix
Ensign
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
|
RcTamiya
SUPREME MATHEMATICS A Band Apart.
25
|
Posted - 2015.11.22 22:33:09 -
[35] - Quote
Celthric Kanerian wrote:Except lorewise this doesn't make sense.... WH's aren't located next to eachother like regular systems. They're scattered all over somewhere.
Not entirely true, they're all in the same galaxy, within several regions, a few of them are in theoretical jumprange to each other.
Thanks Max Trix :)
|
FireFrenzy
SUPREME MATHEMATICS A Band Apart.
631
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 12:26:03 -
[36] - Quote
Okay i know i am in your corp and such but from a database standpoint i do NOT see this as a viable option.
Eveyrhting in eve would need to store where it was was made, which you cant even retroactively do since that data isnt in the database. I get what you are trying to do but that is not how Dogma works. |
RcTamiya
SUPREME MATHEMATICS A Band Apart.
25
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 14:48:45 -
[37] - Quote
I don't get why Database/Dogma has something to do with a change like this?! Please explain. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1599
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 17:27:37 -
[38] - Quote
It looks like a clear desire to get limited cap movement (reward) without actually living in a high class wh (risk).
You want to be able to do limited cap moves w/out the threat of caps being seeded into your wh.
No. |
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
1331
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 19:02:23 -
[39] - Quote
RcTamiya wrote:Heyya,
[beginning translation]You know how cool it is to have capital superiority in your wormhole, but no one wants to commit on a whim becasue caps will be stuck in there? You can be the worst squatter there is with absolutely no aptitude at anything, but you can blob the crap out of your enemies. Sadly, big groups could still team up and seed you while you're busy krabbing in your statics, so I propose the following: *Give us the option to settle in some lowclass system where we're the big guys, get a huge capblob going and we can both use them to gank and fight people in higher class space from our c2 as if we'd actually be a pvp entitty, but they can't seed us! To top it off, people would never have to commit caps to this hole since you would be able to just take them out at will![translation finished]
A service for those that can't read between the lines. Please donate free samples, test bongs and exotic dancers, male&female, directly to me. |
FireFrenzy
SUPREME MATHEMATICS A Band Apart.
632
|
Posted - 2015.11.24 08:59:13 -
[40] - Quote
because DOGMA (which lets be frank is what eve really is everything else is just UI) would need to store the point of origin for every item in eve from the lowliest script to the highest end titan to the skills in the head of my alt.
Data that simply isnt availible because it was never stored, in there atleast, you cannot just go "we'll store it for new capitals and not old capitals" since that makes NO GODDAMN SENSE and would require the end user to keep track of some really weird **** like "crap was archon 1 or archon 2 the one i build after the change?!" Also a low class wormhole defended with capitals already has a home court advantage on par with fortress deklein I'm not sure giving "guys like us" an offensive striking element that can just YOLOSWAG out into statics and wanderings and have a get out of jail free card if everything goes to hell and they want to pursue us home.
And as always Praise BOB. |
|
RcTamiya
SUPREME MATHEMATICS A Band Apart.
25
|
Posted - 2015.11.24 09:04:35 -
[41] - Quote
FireFrenzy wrote:because DOGMA (which lets be frank is what eve really is everything else is just UI) would need to store the point of origin for every item in eve from the lowliest script to the highest end titan to the skills in the head of my alt.
Data that simply isnt availible because it was never stored, in there atleast, you cannot just go "we'll store it for new capitals and not old capitals" since that makes NO GODDAMN SENSE and would require the end user to keep track of some really weird **** like "crap was archon 1 or archon 2 the one i build after the change?!" Also a low class wormhole defended with capitals already has a home court advantage on par with fortress deklein I'm not sure giving "guys like us" an offensive striking element that can just YOLOSWAG out into statics and wanderings and have a get out of jail free card if everything goes to hell and they want to pursue us home.
And as always Praise BOB.
Nope, all you have to do is using the same tracking as polarization does, no need for Dogma to track locations :)
Well this fortress issue actually is alrleady possible and not affected in any way. (in example a certain polish C4 with over 25 capitals inside....) |
FireFrenzy
SUPREME MATHEMATICS A Band Apart.
632
|
Posted - 2015.11.24 13:48:00 -
[42] - Quote
Suppose it'd work but then i'm still unconviced this needs to be a thing.
If you want to offensively deploy caps, go live in a bigger wormhole... I could use the cash from the sites with cap escalations... |
RcTamiya
SUPREME MATHEMATICS A Band Apart.
25
|
Posted - 2015.11.24 14:28:01 -
[43] - Quote
FireFrenzy wrote:Suppose it'd work but then i'm still unconviced this needs to be a thing.
If you want to offensively deploy caps, go live in a bigger wormhole... I could use the cash from the sites with cap escalations...
And this is an argument people prefer to say, however it's not valid anymore, remember yesterday? Capitals inside C2-C4 are a thing and are used by some groups, offensively deployed in their home only, shaking it up a little to allow at least 1 cap outside of their home is more than welcome ;)
Escalations are paying as much an evening as we do right now if farming, no change at all, you're more depending on your luck (roll roll roll the hole....) |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1599
|
Posted - 2015.11.24 15:44:16 -
[44] - Quote
RcTamiya wrote:FireFrenzy wrote:because DOGMA (which lets be frank is what eve really is everything else is just UI) would need to store the point of origin for every item in eve from the lowliest script to the highest end titan to the skills in the head of my alt.
Data that simply isnt availible because it was never stored, in there atleast, you cannot just go "we'll store it for new capitals and not old capitals" since that makes NO GODDAMN SENSE and would require the end user to keep track of some really weird **** like "crap was archon 1 or archon 2 the one i build after the change?!" Also a low class wormhole defended with capitals already has a home court advantage on par with fortress deklein I'm not sure giving "guys like us" an offensive striking element that can just YOLOSWAG out into statics and wanderings and have a get out of jail free card if everything goes to hell and they want to pursue us home.
And as always Praise BOB. Nope, all you have to do is using the same tracking as polarization does, no need for Dogma to track locations :) Well this fortress issue actually is alrleady possible and not affected in any way. (in example a certain polish C4 with over 25 capitals inside....)
If there is a c4 w/ 25 capitals, the only way to ever get them out is via the CCP sponsored insurance program.
And to be totally honest, if some crazy corp spent the time, effort and isk to build 25 caps in a c4 - awesome. They paid their dues to make their fortress. You don't like it - tear it down. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1599
|
Posted - 2015.11.24 16:11:50 -
[45] - Quote
RcTamiya wrote:FireFrenzy wrote:Suppose it'd work but then i'm still unconviced this needs to be a thing.
If you want to offensively deploy caps, go live in a bigger wormhole... I could use the cash from the sites with cap escalations... And this is an argument people prefer to say, however it's not valid anymore, remember yesterday? Capitals inside C2-C4 are a thing and are used by some groups, offensively deployed in their home only, shaking it up a little to allow at least 1 cap outside of their home is more than welcome ;) Escalations are paying as much an evening as we do right now if farming, no change at all, you're more depending on your luck (roll roll roll the hole....)
Let me bottom line the offensive cap into a hostile connection - Post the mass/range change it doesn't really happen anymore. Jumping a single cap into a hostile wh is pretty much throwing it away. A SINGLE cap from a c4 would most likely be bumped, nueted and destroyed. If it's a carrier - it gets neuted and killed. Triage may prolong it's life a bit, but there isn't much hope for a solo carrier. If it's a dread - (you guessed it) it gets nueted and killed. Sieging it will allow it to die faster and without assistance. Any 2 home system dreads will wonk a solo cap due to mass/range. It's just really bad math. You arguing it as a possibility is either a troll or shows your lack of experience w/ caps in wh.
Let me bottom line C5/C6 escallation pve - risk / reward dictates you need to live in one to get the benefits. End of story. WH space isn't SOV null where you get to cheese your way through things. You need to live in the dream to live the dream. |
RcTamiya
SUPREME MATHEMATICS A Band Apart.
25
|
Posted - 2015.11.24 16:47:33 -
[46] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Let me bottom line the offensive cap into a hostile connection - Post the mass/range change it doesn't really happen anymore. Jumping a single cap into a hostile wh is pretty much throwing it away. A SINGLE cap from a c4 would most likely be bumped, nueted and destroyed. If it's a carrier - it gets neuted and killed. Triage may prolong it's life a bit, but there isn't much hope for a solo carrier. If it's a dread - (you guessed it) it gets nueted and killed. Sieging it will allow it to die faster and without assistance. Any 2 home system dreads will wonk a solo cap due to mass/range. It's just really bad math. You arguing it as a possibility is either a troll or shows your lack of experience w/ caps in wh.
Let me bottom line C5/C6 escallation pve - risk / reward dictates you need to live in one to get the benefits. End of story. WH space isn't SOV null where you get to cheese your way through things. You need to live in the dream to live the dream.
Okay i give you one example to show, that a single capital idneed is NOT a throw away, lets pick 2 random groups, who indeed can be an example here, the ones choosen are ADHC (C4) and shadows in space (C5) (i could also pick LDB or Spectraliz IIZ), ADHC can in fact field a Setup like ~ 2 Vindis 2 Bhaal 4 Guardians 1 Dread + more logis or webs if needed (well not 24/7 obviously), shadows in space prefers their dual-chimera + 8 Sub-Cap escalation (something they drop on you VERY quickly in their home) A singledread wont be a throw-away in those situations, in fact it can turn the fight into ADHCs favor, however if ADHC fields their 3 basis + 5-6 Rattlesnake + Loki Setup, they wont go anywhere and have to withdraw.
Now another example -> a random C2-Corp vs C5 corp, if this c2 corp would have had a dread .... Well some T3s would have died for sure.
Another example, we met a C5 group not long a ago, they used 3 Thannys 1 Huginn + some other subs to escalate on us, we barely managed to tank their fleet with just 4 Basis and had to withdraw, however 1 triage would have allowed us to win this battle without any issues, because we had enough neuting to be a serious threat to their Capitals
Another example, this time dura lexx and w-space citizens, they REALLY love to warpin a cap at range to your rattingfleet in C5s and TRY to **** you up, imagine if we would have a dread as addition to our sabre on standby to kill this dual nano, warpcorestabbed Nidhi they love so much to warp into us (dragbubble at it's home WH, siege green, blap carrier, profit), where's the risk vs reward there?!
I in fact can name you several corps, engagements and situations where ONE Capital could have changed absolutely everything in seconds, however it does not allow you to drop a capital on everybody, it just opens possibilities.
And Blood Uinion has proven, that 1 Moros can overwhelm 2-3 Dreads as well, just check out "one dread army" on youtube.
Well escalation pve has been brought up by myself, again -> i hope solodread gets impossible postrebalance.
regards rc |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1601
|
Posted - 2015.11.24 17:26:24 -
[47] - Quote
RcTamiya wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:
Let me bottom line the offensive cap into a hostile connection - Post the mass/range change it doesn't really happen anymore. Jumping a single cap into a hostile wh is pretty much throwing it away. A SINGLE cap from a c4 would most likely be bumped, nueted and destroyed. If it's a carrier - it gets neuted and killed. Triage may prolong it's life a bit, but there isn't much hope for a solo carrier. If it's a dread - (you guessed it) it gets nueted and killed. Sieging it will allow it to die faster and without assistance. Any 2 home system dreads will wonk a solo cap due to mass/range. It's just really bad math. You arguing it as a possibility is either a troll or shows your lack of experience w/ caps in wh.
Let me bottom line C5/C6 escallation pve - risk / reward dictates you need to live in one to get the benefits. End of story. WH space isn't SOV null where you get to cheese your way through things. You need to live in the dream to live the dream.
Okay i give you one example to show, that a single capital idneed is NOT a throw away, lets pick 2 random groups, who indeed can be an example here, the ones choosen are ADHC (C4) and shadows in space (C5) (i could also pick LDB or Spectraliz IIZ), ADHC can in fact field a Setup like ~ 2 Vindis 2 Bhaal 4 Guardians 1 Dread + more logis or webs if needed (well not 24/7 obviously), shadows in space prefers their dual-chimera + 8 Sub-Cap escalation (something they drop on you VERY quickly in their home) A singledread wont be a throw-away in those situations, in fact it can turn the fight into ADHCs favor, however if ADHC fields their 3 basis + 5-6 Rattlesnake + Loki Setup, they wont go anywhere and have to withdraw. Now another example -> a random C2-Corp vs C5 corp, if this c2 corp would have had a dread .... Well some T3s would have died for sure. Another example, we met a C5 group not long a ago, they used 3 Thannys 1 Huginn + some other subs to escalate on us, we barely managed to tank their fleet with just 4 Basis and had to withdraw, however 1 triage would have allowed us to win this battle without any issues, because we had enough neuting to be a serious threat to their Capitals Another example, this time dura lexx and w-space citizens, they REALLY love to warpin a cap at range to your rattingfleet in C5s and TRY to **** you up, imagine if we would have a dread as addition to our sabre on standby to kill this dual nano, warpcorestabbed Nidhi they love so much to warp into us (dragbubble at it's home WH, siege green, blap carrier, profit), where's the risk vs reward there?! I in fact can name you several corps, engagements and situations where ONE Capital could have changed absolutely everything in seconds, however it does not allow you to drop a capital on everybody, it just opens possibilities. And Blood Uinion has proven, that 1 Moros can overwhelm 2-3 Dreads as well, just check out "one dread army" on youtube. Well escalation pve has been brought up by myself, again -> i hope solodread gets impossible postrebalance. regards rc
Squirrels must just love you to death! |
Static Bearing Denied
Good Fights Inc
0
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 20:17:12 -
[48] - Quote
Or you could stop whine and makebad suggestion and go live in c5 and take risk instead of hide and cap blob in you elite c2 |
Hidden Fremen
Lazerhawks
650
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 20:30:16 -
[49] - Quote
Sounds like you want CCP to change something for you that can be remedied by simply moving up, except you wanna stay in low class and be the power there by being able to bring caps to folks you don't play dead with. |
Oskolda Eriker
Beyond The Last Horizon Dark Pride Alliance
5
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 21:02:20 -
[50] - Quote
RcTamiya wrote: Another example, this time dura lexx and w-space citizens, they REALLY love to warpin a cap at range to your rattingfleet in C5s and TRY to **** you up, imagine if we would have a dread as addition to our sabre on standby to kill this dual nano, warpcorestabbed Nidhi they love so much to warp into us (dragbubble at it's home WH, siege green, blap carrier, profit), where's the risk vs reward there?!
I in fact can name you several corps, engagements and situations where ONE Capital could have changed absolutely everything in seconds, however it does not allow you to drop a capital on everybody, it just opens possibilities.
And Blood Uinion has proven, that 1 Moros can overwhelm 2-3 Dreads as well, just check out "one dread army" on youtube.
Well escalation pve has been brought up by myself, again -> i hope solodread gets impossible postrebalance.
regards rc
You have problems with killing stabbed nidhi? |
|
Static Bearing Denied
Good Fights Inc
2
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 22:29:05 -
[51] - Quote
Oskolda Eriker wrote:RcTamiya wrote: Another example, this time dura lexx and w-space citizens, they REALLY love to warpin a cap at range to your rattingfleet in C5s and TRY to **** you up, imagine if we would have a dread as addition to our sabre on standby to kill this dual nano, warpcorestabbed Nidhi they love so much to warp into us (dragbubble at it's home WH, siege green, blap carrier, profit), where's the risk vs reward there?!
I in fact can name you several corps, engagements and situations where ONE Capital could have changed absolutely everything in seconds, however it does not allow you to drop a capital on everybody, it just opens possibilities.
And Blood Uinion has proven, that 1 Moros can overwhelm 2-3 Dreads as well, just check out "one dread army" on youtube.
Well escalation pve has been brought up by myself, again -> i hope solodread gets impossible postrebalance.
regards rc
You have problems with killing stabbed nidhi?
He just angry he not able to kill nidhi so he think of stupid idea instead |
RcTamiya
SUPREME MATHEMATICS A Band Apart.
26
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 09:40:37 -
[52] - Quote
1. we aint hiding, hidden as far as i remember we allready spoke about that in a public channel ;)
2. we can kill stabbed nidhi, but obviously stabbed nidhi has friends and our commited fleet in c5 sites can't move dps out to kill it
3. no, actually i am not angry at all, just giving examples
4. how can you cap blob with just 1 cap? *shrugs*
EDIT: nice troll with those alts btw ;) |
Rek Seven
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
2116
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 10:47:05 -
[53] - Quote
I think Curtis Mayfield has some advice for you.
The wishlist is pretty much complete...
|
Oskolda Eriker
Beyond The Last Horizon Dark Pride Alliance
5
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 11:37:21 -
[54] - Quote
RcTamiya wrote:1. we aint hiding, hidden as far as i remember we allready spoke about that in a public channel ;)
2. we can kill stabbed nidhi, but obviously stabbed nidhi has friends and our commited fleet in c5 sites can't move dps out to kill it
EDIT: nice troll with those alts btw ;) oh Yeah One dread will save you from nidhi friends (no problem for dura to jump 2 dread and couple of bs fleet), that just foolishly |
DrysonBennington
Aliastra Gallente Federation
244
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 12:40:13 -
[55] - Quote
I think you need an Anti- Higg's Mass Reducer that will cancel out the mass of your ship passing through a wormhole so you can jump from a small wormhole into a larger one and vice versus.
Basically the Anti-Higg's Mass Reducer would eliminate mass produced by a ship by creating a field around the ship that remove the mass from particles coming into contact with the field. Regardless of how much mass the ship actually had if there is not any mass effecting on the ship traveling through the wormhole from particles with mass in the wormhole. Then how does the wormhole actually know that a ship with mass actually exists? |
RcTamiya
SUPREME MATHEMATICS A Band Apart.
26
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 12:41:51 -
[56] - Quote
DrysonBennington wrote:I think you need an Anti- Higg's Mass Reducer that will cancel out the mass of your ship passing through a wormhole so you can jump from a small wormhole into a larger one and vice versus.
Basically the Anti-Higg's Mass Reducer would eliminate mass produced by a ship by creating a field around the ship that remove the mass from particles coming into contact with the field. Regardless of how much mass the ship actually had if there is not any mass effecting on the ship traveling through the wormhole from particles with mass in the wormhole. Then how does the wormhole actually know that a ship with mass actually exists?
But it would allow people to seed captials into low-class wormholes :/ We don't want that :P |
Static Bearing Denied
Good Fights Inc
3
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 15:58:18 -
[57] - Quote
RcTamiya wrote:1. we aint hiding, hidden as far as i remember we allready spoke about that in a public channel ;)
2. we can kill stabbed nidhi, but obviously stabbed nidhi has friends and our commited fleet in c5 sites can't move dps out to kill it
3. no, actually i am not angry at all, just giving examples
4. how can you cap blob with just 1 cap? *shrugs*
EDIT: nice troll with those alts btw ;)
Maybe you should stop run site 24/7 if youwere real pvp corp you would able to kill nidhi instead of complain "cant move site fleet to kill" |
RcTamiya
SUPREME MATHEMATICS A Band Apart.
27
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 16:23:30 -
[58] - Quote
Static Bearing Denied wrote:RcTamiya wrote:1. we aint hiding, hidden as far as i remember we allready spoke about that in a public channel ;)
2. we can kill stabbed nidhi, but obviously stabbed nidhi has friends and our commited fleet in c5 sites can't move dps out to kill it
3. no, actually i am not angry at all, just giving examples
4. how can you cap blob with just 1 cap? *shrugs*
EDIT: nice troll with those alts btw ;) Maybe you should stop run site 24/7 if youwere real pvp corp you would able to kill nidhi instead of complain "cant move site fleet to kill"
bad troll still ;)
However with a dread your fleet setup is different, a elite pvper as you are should know that, obviously with other tools the way how you can react changes too, you should also know that Any useful feedback here or just trolls ? |
Oskolda Eriker
Beyond The Last Horizon Dark Pride Alliance
5
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 17:52:29 -
[59] - Quote
Ok one feedback: No risk-no dread |
Static Bearing Denied
Good Fights Inc
4
|
Posted - 2015.11.28 00:15:47 -
[60] - Quote
Oskolda Eriker thank you You completely right
So this guy if wants to pvp or is as good as he think he is he should move to c5 or c6 space. He so bad he even not have idea that there are no dynamic wormhole in highclass wormhole space, he too used to his c2
In case someone not know - C5 and C6 do not get random connection to more low class wormhole - except frighole. |
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 [2] 3 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |