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ArtemisEntreri
Turbulent
Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.11 15:09:00 -
[91]
 Originally by: Trask Kilraen
Why do some pirates want to be able to easily probe missions? Because it's an almost no-risk kill. If the mission runner knows his business, he's running missions as close to the limit of his abilities as possible. Therefore, you warp in, his tank is already stressed, he's already engaged, ya pop him easy, take the phat loot, and move on.
Gimme a break.
Now you can argue that a mission runner has almost no risk... and if the runner does his homework, I wouldn't disagree. Even so, the runner will probably lose a ship every now and then to bad intel, the lagmonster, whatever. But if you want missions to be riskier, then the rewards have to be better.
The OP, IMO is the one whining for an "easy button"
I am by no means asking for the pre-nerf system.
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ArtemisEntreri
Turbulent
Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.11 15:09:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Trask Kilraen
Why do some pirates want to be able to easily probe missions? Because it's an almost no-risk kill. If the mission runner knows his business, he's running missions as close to the limit of his abilities as possible. Therefore, you warp in, his tank is already stressed, he's already engaged, ya pop him easy, take the phat loot, and move on.
Gimme a break.
Now you can argue that a mission runner has almost no risk... and if the runner does his homework, I wouldn't disagree. Even so, the runner will probably lose a ship every now and then to bad intel, the lagmonster, whatever. But if you want missions to be riskier, then the rewards have to be better.
The OP, IMO is the one whining for an "easy button"
I am by no means asking for the pre-nerf system.
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Damien Smith
Turbulent
Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.11 15:25:00 -
[93]
The amount of missioners that get probed now is about the same as in the pre-kali system. The only difference is that before only the most practiced and capable coverts got the kills, whereas now whether you're a vet or noob, if you have the same amount of skillpoints and the target is within range of the probe, you have exactly the same chance of locating the target. Player skill doesn't factor into the equation any more.
In the old system you spent more time narrowing the target down with the directional scanner and dropping bookmarks to get you the perfect probe placement than the entire system takes now. All you do now is 360 degree scan to see if the target is in range of a particular probe, and if he is, drop the probe and scan repeatedly until you get a result. The most interactivity you can get now is overlapping a couple of probes to try and weigh the magic dice in your favour.
No one here is suggesting we make probing mission runners easier. What we're saying is entirely the opposite. The system's too easy, it's just that you need to go through the same easy process multiple times to get anywhere. That's not challenging, that's a grind.
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Join channel 'Turby' or die! (bring pie)
I <3 carebears on toast ^^ - Xorus
I'll trade you some carebears for some sheep -Tirg
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Katrina Kirellii
Caldari
Escorts of Eve
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Posted - 2007.01.11 15:37:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Trask Kilraen
Why do some pirates want to be able to easily probe missions? Because it's an almost no-risk kill. If the mission runner knows his business, he's running missions as close to the limit of his abilities as possible. Therefore, you warp in, his tank is already stressed, he's already engaged, ya pop him easy, take the phat loot, and move on.
Gimme a break.
Now you can argue that a mission runner has almost no risk... and if the runner does his homework, I wouldn't disagree. Even so, the runner will probably lose a ship every now and then to bad intel, the lagmonster, whatever. But if you want missions to be riskier, then the rewards have to be better.
The OP, IMO is the one whining for an "easy button"
Exactly - the "Easy Button" should not be available to pirates. They chose a hard profession and should have to deal with it. I think it should be made even harder for them. Maybe if the mission spawn changed targets to someone who was not supposed to be in the mission. Not their mission and not in the gang. Yeah - that would be swell if that could be implemented.
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Exlegion
Legion's Knight
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Posted - 2007.01.11 15:51:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Damien Smith
No one here is suggesting we make probing mission runners easier.
The OP and some others are suggesting it be as easy as probing a safe spot or mining spot. Would you like me to point it out again for you?
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Jenna Culthaire
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Posted - 2007.01.11 15:55:00 -
[96]
Because mission runners make up a vast amount of the game community, and lets not forget that being kitted out for PVP is very different from being kitted out for a mission.
I move around Low Sec quite a lot and theres not so many folks about. High Sec a very different situation. My guess is that High Sec and 0.0 are where most people can be found.
I reckon you just want 'easy big kills' and mission loot....
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Damien Smith
Turbulent
Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.11 16:21:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Exlegion
Originally by: Damien Smith
No one here is suggesting we make probing mission runners easier.
The OP and some others are suggesting it be as easy as probing a safe spot or mining spot. Would you like me to point it out again for you?
Probing safespots is still overpowered. I doubt that anyone (apart from noobs who just want easy ganks) want probing missions to be that easy. That being said though, it should be no harder. The system as it is now is screwed, I'm sure everyone will agree. Altering the 'chance' of getting a result won't fix the problem, it'll just adjust the amount of scans you need to repeat before you get a result.
I'll probably sound like I'm repeating myself but I'll say it again anyway - Scan probing in its current form takes zero skill.
If you did to combat what had been done to scan probing then you wouldn't have to allow for tracking, transversal, sig radius etc any more. The only deciding factor of any fight would be whether or not your guns were in range, and if they were, a magic dice weighted by the amount of gunnery skillpoints trained would decide if you won or not. The player with the most gunnery skillpoints would win in every single fight. How is that in any way a fulfilling challenge?
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Join channel 'Turby' or die! (bring pie)
I <3 carebears on toast ^^ - Xorus
I'll trade you some carebears for some sheep -Tirg
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Exlegion
Legion's Knight
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Posted - 2007.01.11 16:29:00 -
[98]
Can't argue with you on that. I'm for a 'smarter' system that involves less luck as well. If the old system meant that actual human skills improved the chances of a successful probe scan then perhaps CCP should consider reverting back to it. The whole "Don't fix what..." deal. Ah well, 'guess we'll see.
Exlegion
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Damien Smith
Turbulent
Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.11 16:50:00 -
[99]
Edited by: Damien Smith on 11/01/2007 16:49:34
Originally by: Exlegion
Can't argue with you on that. I'm for a 'smarter' system that involves less luck as well. If the old system meant that actual human skills improved the chances of a successful probe scan then perhaps CCP should consider reverting back to it. The whole "Don't fix what..." deal. Ah well, 'guess we'll see.
Exlegion
The old system only ever had one complaint. That was that the scan probes scanned in a disc shape, rather than a sphere. That meant a target could be in range of a directional scan, yet be outside the probes vertical scanning range. That alone was its only flaw.
Player skills didn't just increase the chances of a successful scan, they decided whether or not you got a result at all. If all three probes were in a triangle around the target and were all in range, you got a result. If just one was off, you didn't. You had to work down through the probe sizes too. Observators dropped you just within 192au probes, they dropped you in 48au probe range, which then dropped you in 12au probe range, which dropped you in 3au probe range. It was very time intensive and just one dropped probe could make all the difference.
The disc shaped scan area wasn't a problem at all in my opinion. The was nothing more exciting than trying desperately to use results from the less accurate probes to warp between and make bookmarks, that would then allow you to get a good spot to drop a smaller one before the target spotted you or moved on.
Probing was fun back then.
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Join channel 'Turby' or die! (bring pie)
I <3 carebears on toast ^^ - Xorus
I'll trade you some carebears for some sheep -Tirg
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Manus Stuprare
Dominus Nihil EVE
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Posted - 2007.01.11 20:28:00 -
[100]
How about a bit of give and take:
- make missions easier to scan out, but
- make mission rats able to switch targets, instead of keeping aggro on the mission runner all the time.
Both players thus have to deal with damage from the rats, which leads to a fairer fight. That's what everyone wants... isn't it? 
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Petrothian Tong
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Posted - 2007.01.11 20:56:00 -
[101]
Damien Smith wins the thread....
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Stakhanov
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.01.11 21:05:00 -
[102]
Rats should be smarter period.
What is aggravating is that mission runners were *offered* near invulnerability - maybe to make up for the stab nerf ? (as if it only harmed them...)
I'm all for giving them counters to probing. ECCM , maybe some kind of probe detecting module - to be alerted when they've been successfully scanned. It would be even better to have warp bubbles / probes work against acceleration gates. Anything that involves some thinking - not a free shield for the clueless.
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Karlemgne
The Black Fleet
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Posted - 2007.01.11 21:11:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Damien Smith
Edited by: Damien Smith on 11/01/2007 16:49:34
Originally by: Exlegion
Can't argue with you on that. I'm for a 'smarter' system that involves less luck as well. If the old system meant that actual human skills improved the chances of a successful probe scan then perhaps CCP should consider reverting back to it. The whole "Don't fix what..." deal. Ah well, 'guess we'll see.
Exlegion
The old system only ever had one complaint. That was that the scan probes scanned in a disc shape, rather than a sphere. That meant a target could be in range of a directional scan, yet be outside the probes vertical scanning range. That alone was its only flaw.
Player skills didn't just increase the chances of a successful scan, they decided whether or not you got a result at all. If all three probes were in a triangle around the target and were all in range, you got a result. If just one was off, you didn't. You had to work down through the probe sizes too. Observators dropped you just within 192au probes, they dropped you in 48au probe range, which then dropped you in 12au probe range, which dropped you in 3au probe range. It was very time intensive and just one dropped probe could make all the difference.
The disc shaped scan area wasn't a problem at all in my opinion. The was nothing more exciting than trying desperately to use results from the less accurate probes to warp between and make bookmarks, that would then allow you to get a good spot to drop a smaller one before the target spotted you or moved on.
Probing was fun back then.
It might have been fun, but it was pointless unless you were hunting someone who logged off with a timer. 90% of the people you tried to probe knew they could beat you by warping between safespots...
And even if they didn't know that, the time investment was prohibative. It took at least 3 minutes to scan someone out, and that is if everything went right.
More often then not, even those who were unaware of how to beat your probe did anyway, just because it took so damn long.
I like the system how it is now. It has added a whole dimension to find targets, and avoiding those who want vengence. CCP did a good job with the changes, but I'm still going to gripe at how the mission runners are virtually immune.
-Karl
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Karlemgne
The Black Fleet
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Posted - 2007.01.11 21:29:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Gix Firebrand
Man.. it makes me sad to see so many of my fellow pirates whine like little girls :(
You got several options. One, if it bothers you that much vote with your wallet and quit.
I absolutely hate this logic. First of all, we do not "vote" by capitalistic consumption. Voting refers to a specific type of social conflict resolution. And for the record consumer choices don't equal freedom.
Don't think that I'm done lecturing you. I'll continue on about how much I hate that agrument. You telling me to quit if I don't like the way CCP handles a single game mechanic, is akin to someone telling me to leave the country if I don't like the government. It makes no sense in either case. I am a member of this community, and a player of this game, and I have the obligation to speak up when I think one particular part doesn't work well.
Quote:
Two, get better at scanning and camping the warp in point.
Getting better at scanning is not possible. Even with your scan probe skills maximized, it is still prohibatively difficult to scan out a mission runner. A couple corp mates of mine were trying to scan out a Raven in a level 4 mission. This Raven sat in the dead space for 3 hours, and after a total of 21 probes had been used (in range) the mission was never busted.
As to camping a "warp in" point, there are about 50 things you can be refering to. Sufficit to say, once a mission runner is in a low sec station, with his or her agents, it is very hard to "camp" them. They easily dock again if they undock to a camp, can't be found in their missions, and have free insta docks these days.
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Three, stop crying.
The only people I see crying here are mission runners and guys like you.
"Wahhhhh! I like my easy money, the game isn't broken, keep it easy for me! Wahhh! You don't like it leave eve! Wahhh!"
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Four, rally for increased low sec profit to make it worth the risk.
You are right. If I suddenly made twice what the mission runners did from simple low sec belt ratting (lets face it, belt ratting is 10x more dangerous than mission running) then I suppose I might be conviced to leave the bo-ho poor billionare mission runners in their faction BS's to their easy mission money.
-K
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Christopher Dalran
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Posted - 2007.01.11 22:17:00 -
[105]
Make the mission spawn split off and start attacking the new arrival instead of everything shooting at the victim untill they are destroyed and probing missions would be ok.
Before all you had to do was warp into someones mission and you would win every single time (unless they warped out) because the missions spawns alwayse helped you.
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Merdaneth
Amarr
Un4seen Development
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Posted - 2007.01.11 22:19:00 -
[106]
It's very simple.
If it is as easy to scan missions as it is safespots:
1. low-sec mission runners will just run missions in high-sec or rat in 0.0, in both cases the risk is much lower and the rewards much better than missioning in low-sec.
2. Pirates will do nothing else than scan out and attack mission runners in low-sec, since the risk is much lower and the rewards much better than camping, belt hunting or any other activity.
Obviously, this will result in low-sec systems devoid of mission runners and full of scanning pirates within a few weeks.
The current reality: suppose the chance of scanning out and actually killing the mission runner is 2% for each 5 minutes invested. The average payout (next to the fun of ganking someone) is about 75mil in loot. That means the isk/hour is 18mil. About the same what the missioners earn, hence very well balanced.
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Karlemgne
The Black Fleet
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Posted - 2007.01.11 23:07:00 -
[107]
Edited by: Karlemgne on 11/01/2007 23:04:08
Originally by: Merdaneth
It's very simple.
If it is as easy to scan missions as it is safespots:
1. low-sec mission runners will just run missions in high-sec or rat in 0.0, in both cases the risk is much lower and the rewards much better than missioning in low-sec.
2. Pirates will do nothing else than scan out and attack mission runners in low-sec, since the risk is much lower and the rewards much better than camping, belt hunting or any other activity.
Obviously, this will result in low-sec systems devoid of mission runners and full of scanning pirates within a few weeks.
The current reality: suppose the chance of scanning out and actually killing the mission runner is 2% for each 5 minutes invested. The average payout (next to the fun of ganking someone) is about 75mil in loot. That means the isk/hour is 18mil. About the same what the missioners earn, hence very well balanced.
First of all, I am not in favor of making it just as easy to scan out mission runners as it is to scan out those in safespots... but, it should be pretty close.
You fix the problems you are talking about two fold. One you move all the level 4 agents into low sec. Two you make mission NPCs change agro when others arrive, and three you allow mission runners to equip some sort of signal damper to reduce the effectiveness of scan probes.
A couple of other things. Gate camping, when done by more than 5 people, is relatively safe. Not all pirates have the skills to deploy scan probes. Furthermore, as it is now, it is already like the mission runners aren't out here. We can never catch them, unless of course we happen to catch them at a gate coming in or out of low sec.
Then again, keep in mind that a whole lot of youger pirates don't have the skills or numbers to tank sentries and fight Battleships. But, hey, I guess this game only exists to make mission runners rich, to give 0.0 alliances something to do, and give the old pirates just enough that they keep paying their dues.
Quote:
current reality: suppose the chance of scanning out and actually killing the mission runner is 2% for each 5 minutes invested. The average payout (next to the fun of ganking someone) is about 75mil in loot. That means the isk/hour is 18mil. About the same what the missioners earn, hence very well balanced.
This statistic is completely manufactured. I am here to tell you, that during an entire DAY (9 hours of play time) you are lucky to scan out one mission runner, who most often is gone by the time you warp in.
-Karlemgne
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Marcus TheMartin
Gallente
Tuxedo.
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Posted - 2007.01.11 23:09:00 -
[108]
all for the old system being brought back with scanning spheres instead of discs
Best Dressed Corp of 2006 and 2007! -Marcus TheMartin
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Karlemgne
The Black Fleet
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Posted - 2007.01.11 23:42:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Marcus TheMartin
all for the old system being brought back with scanning spheres instead of discs
Pirates are suddenly in favor of the old system coming back...
Not because it was better, but because we get caught more. Too bad mission runners are still virtully immune.
-Karl
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Lygos
Amarr
ISS Navy Task Force
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.01.12 00:00:00 -
[110]
Edited by: Lygos on 12/01/2007 00:00:06
Engagability is critical for co-op gameplay.
If the only way to engage an npc grinder is to camp their station, then you eliminate content for both the pirate and the npcer. The NPCer doesn't undock, and the pirate can only ransom the player for the advantage of not having to log off for the night.
If an alt-probe-scout can get to the entrance of the NPCer's complex, then yes, there is a chance that the pirate might manage to enter the system and force an engagement with the npcer. Don't forget that there is no MWDing in complexes, so it's only the Raven pilot that just sits next to the entrance and spams missiles that runs any risk.
Allowing the possibility of engagement is not important for the sake of engagement alone. It allows for the necessity of players making political decisions such as becoming territorial, or seeking other collective possibilities for defense, or mitigation of risk.
Arguments of numbers involved on either side are not represented by the current situation. The pirate has the incentive of seeking aid in numbers, but he earns less income for it. The NPCer can grind server content solo, but he can easily adopt the practic of being ganged with other allied, or perhaps finding and shooting all neutrals who enter the system. You allow players to have incentives towards making their own political decisions, and allow advantages to compete with one another and you will see Jaspet miners with -9.8 security standing. They in turn may begin to rely on traders with higher mobility to service their needs. Incidents of self-organization tend to sponsor further such incidents. Blobbing is the self-reinforcing amalgamation of people seeking out cooperative or ideosophic bonds. Anti-blobbing incentives have to come from both risk, expense of operational resources, and tendencies towards internal competition.
For these reasons, Player to Player content in all forms will always be priveleged over Player to Server content. It inevitably leads to richer, more innovative, more complex, more immersive, longer-lasting experiences.
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T2 Risk | Corp Divisions |
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Marcus TheMartin
Gallente
Tuxedo.
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Posted - 2007.01.12 00:07:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Karlemgne
Originally by: Marcus TheMartin
all for the old system being brought back with scanning spheres instead of discs
Pirates are suddenly in favor of the old system coming back...
Not because it was better, but because we get caught more. Too bad mission runners are still virtully immune.
-Karl
You can't be immune to skill and thats what it took to use the old probes of course the disc thing was very annoying. Add spheres and retromorph the probe system I think every one will be satisfied. I'm not too fond of probe alts constantly probe spamming hoping their magic dice roll is greater than the person getting probes saving throw in my opinion
Best Dressed Corp of 2006 and 2007! -Marcus TheMartin
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Dixon
Caldari
Hells Donkeys
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Posted - 2007.01.12 00:55:00 -
[112]
Don't fix what ain't broken, probes are working as intended. Missions are NOT that hard to find, they're just different..
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Originally by: Ath Amon
as long as there will be such umbalance there is no hope to make ships balanced...
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Frug
SYOID
Fimbulwinter
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Posted - 2007.01.12 01:01:00 -
[113]
Agreed. Don't whine because you don't have an idiot proof button to find and gank a guy who's stuck fighting 30 rats at once.
- - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - -
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Taipan Gedscho
Taipan Industries
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Posted - 2007.01.12 01:08:00 -
[114]
hi. i am a highsec mission *****.
i toyed around with probes to see how it works.
my 50 cents:
before the change, too easy.
now, too hard.
something in the middle would be nice imho.
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Donna Darko
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Posted - 2007.01.12 03:23:00 -
[115]
Probes are working as intended, indeed, and probes were working as intended before, but that doesn't mean they were/are useful with their old/current behavior.
Stories. |
Karlemgne
The Black Fleet
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Posted - 2007.01.12 05:40:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Frug
Agreed. Don't whine because you don't have an idiot proof button to find and gank a guy who's stuck fighting 30 rats at once.
Sadly they have an idiot proof, pirate proof, everyone proof money making machine in the form of level four missions. Don't whine because its you making all the reward with virtually no risk.
-Karl
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Gix Firebrand
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2007.01.12 08:44:00 -
[117]
Erm Karl.. I don't run lvl 4s. I also don't run in low sec cause I don't want to get ganked :D
So I'm not one of these "billion-making invincible carebears" or some such.
In fact, you can usually find me ratting in low sec :D
However, you need to see both sides. But it does come off as whining, and it does come off like you just want easy kills.
Don't whine about scanning, whine about increased low sec profit :D and I'm all for moving lvl 4 out of low sec, or at least making it a bit more dangerous in terms of rats/difficulty.
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Lord WarATron
Amarr
Vanguard Frontiers
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Posted - 2007.01.12 09:29:00 -
[118]
Again lets be honest here. Pirates want easy ganks on mission runners to get their billion isk setups. If the Billion isk setup player relises that they are going to get jumped, then they are not going to fly expensive setups or leave low sec altogether.
Mission runners have demands and also supply the market. The Demand of mission runners in low sec hubs open up traders to come in etc etc. No mission runners means traders go elseware and at the end of the day, pirates lose out as targets dissapear.
So whats the solution?
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Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble'Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour
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OldPueblo
Gallente
The Fantastically Pantless Sporkmen
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Posted - 2007.01.12 09:30:00 -
[119]
Edited by: OldPueblo on 12/01/2007 09:27:46
The irony is that I see lowsec as more populated now that people feel safer travelling with warp to 0. Once again though, every time they jump they can be caught on the other side. And many missions send you into low-sec or from low-sec to neighboring low-sec systems. Its not just station to mission back to station always. The opportunities are there, they just won't be handed on a platter.
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Tiny Tove
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Posted - 2007.01.12 10:05:00 -
[120]
Hardly the only irony is it?
Ironic that the gankbears have come to whining. Especially after all the whining accusations they've been doing since -f-o-r-e-v-e-r-.
Ironic that they insist we meta game using alt scouts, but not with logoff.
Ironic that warp to zero just made gate camping less detectable since you can't scan the gate you'll be caught at without meta gaming.
Ironic that gankbears think that the map says "Gate Camp In Progress" when you select Pilots In System. No, it shows pilots in system, and ships destroyed. Not "Gankbears with no new ideas".
It's long overdue that the carebears stop thinking about gankbears as mindless thugs, but as whiny little babies who require candy, easy pickings ganks and at the very least an "I Usually Win" button.
Please keep crying. It is abso-kin-lutely priceless what you gankbears have become.
It is your own fault. The thoughtless destruction of everything you meet has lead to you meeting less, and somehow you didn't see that coming. Blame CCP if it makes you feel better.
In the meantime,
LOL!
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