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Ottom Ephesianos
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
44
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Posted - 2016.01.13 01:42:42 -
[151] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:I've already explained my bitterness before in this thread. You know first hand how it is to have your own side infested by certain undesirables. I'm just less willing than you to embrace such creatures as Sansha and Sabik. Principles are a pain in the arse, but I'm not sacrificing them over a proxy war, as I've already said.
I'll leave that to PIE and the rest of the TLF.
I have been flying with the Minmatar Republic and the Tribal Liberation Force for long enough to say that if there are blood rituals in the ranks they are hidden or hearsay. Sometimes lore and reality muddle the truth of a social norm or ancestral commonality. Second generations of any abnormal behavior automatically rebuke self destructive behavior and transform said behavior into rebellious activity. It is less than a few generations before ignorant traditions are manipulated beyond observance. There is no faith and so the continuance is merely political and capitalistic. In those regards the negatives of the lore's affects are departed from spiritual beliefs and used as excuses for progress either by reflection or relapse. |
Aldrith Shutaq
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1249
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Posted - 2016.01.13 02:28:35 -
[152] - Quote
Mizzy, I do believe you have lost sight of what we should be fighting for. We are not fighting for our own principles and dignity, but for the people who live in the warzone. Namely, to protect them. If you actually thought you'd matter in the grand scheme of national politics and policy, I can see why you'd be embittered. But no, the militias are not the nation they are supposed to represent. The only effect we have is on the lives in the warzone itself, specifically the poor souls who have no choice but to live and work there. I fight to protect Amarrians from Minmatar terrorism and occupation. I will use any cudgel I have on hand to defeat my enemy and achieve that end, unless it is a greater detriment to the total cause, such as the Butcher.
Meanwhile, you should be fighting to protect Minmatar from Amarrian enslavement and oppression, and likewise be using every tool at your disposal to do so. In fact, I do believe you have done so in the past, with terror operations and psyops being conducted by you and your own peers. As far as DnG go, I'd say most of them are less disagreeable than some of the things you have done personally. They may be irritating, but they are not cruel. Well, except edeity's lot, but they'll get theirs soon enough.
So really, stop with this moral high horse bit. That is our schitck, not yours. Just admit you are on the backfoot because you cannot beat DnG and get on with it. Fight harder, not whine harder. |
Mizhara Del'thul
T.R.I.A.D Ushra'Khan
523
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Posted - 2016.01.13 11:00:51 -
[153] - Quote
Oh do come off it, Aldiboo. It's a little late to start pretending system ownership affects anyone's lives but the actual members of the TLF and 24th. Don't worry though. I'm sure you'll find that this "any end justifies any means" attitude of yours won't come to bite you in the arse at any point.
An honest piece of advice though: Save up those "means" for when it actually matters. When you actually can affect something. Dulling the blades and showing all your cards over empty pots is only as satisfying as pissing yourself in a snowstorm. Momentary relief, but ultimately rather stupid.
Perhaps it's a little too late though, if you're already breaking out the "whine" and "moral high horse" nonsense. I didn't really think you'd run out of discourse already, but I suppose I've given you too much credit. |
ValentinaDLM
Khushakor Clan Of Questionable Repute
840
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Posted - 2016.01.13 11:30:54 -
[154] - Quote
Aldrith Shutaq wrote: ... So really, stop with this moral high horse bit. That is our schitck, not yours. Just admit you are on the backfoot because you cannot beat DnG and get on with it. Fight harder, not whine harder.
You really don't get the moral high ground either, you all are after all slavers, something inherently immoral, but, I am sure you can justify it to yourselves, I know I did long enough so I won't lecture you because it won't help. We are on the backfoot because, well we don't have anywhere close to the amount of pilots your side has.
There isn't much to entice people to enlist over here either, the rewards aren't very good, and haven't been for a long time due to market saturation, there isn't very much structure or leadership, and what is around is largely divided into two groups who seem to have some mutual frustrations with one another. Add to it, the drama of being decried as traitor for attacking Amarrians in providence, or procuring resources outside of the TLF for our people; and that sort of thing scares off lots of recruits who might otherwise want to protect the people of the Republic.
But I will certainly see you around in space Aldrith, For what it is worth, I like you, I felt like you fought for me when I was trying to find my place, but that won't make me go easy on you. |
Kador Ouryon
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
79
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Posted - 2016.01.13 11:42:01 -
[155] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:Oh do come off it, Aldiboo. It's a little late to start pretending system ownership affects anyone's lives but the actual members of the TLF and 24th. Don't worry though. I'm sure you'll find that this "any end justifies any means" attitude of yours won't come to bite you in the arse at any point.
An honest piece of advice though: Save up those "means" for when it actually matters. When you actually can affect something. Dulling the blades and showing all your cards over empty pots is only as satisfying as pissing yourself in a snowstorm. Momentary relief, but ultimately rather stupid.
Perhaps it's a little too late though, if you're already breaking out the "whine" and "moral high horse" nonsense. I didn't really think you'd run out of discourse already, but I suppose I've given you too much credit.
It's not exactly like you have a great deal to fall back yourself Mizhara.... I mean the Minmatar Militia's track record for actually being able to conquer the warzone is.... wait.... it's non-existent...
So much for 'you' being able to affect a meaningful change.
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Kador Ouryon
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
79
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Posted - 2016.01.13 11:44:54 -
[156] - Quote
ValentinaDLM wrote: For what it is worth, I like you, I felt like you fought for me when I was trying to find my place, but that won't make me go easy on you.
Same can be said from me to you on the few occasions we've met and you've treated myself and Satja well considering your stance on the morality of our culture and complexities of our relationship.
I somewhat understand why you fight but at times I wish you wouldn't so adamantly.... and you should know better than anyonewhy that is. |
Mizhara Del'thul
T.R.I.A.D Ushra'Khan
523
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Posted - 2016.01.13 11:50:51 -
[157] - Quote
Kador Ouryon wrote:
It's not exactly like you have a great deal to fall back yourself Mizhara.... I mean the Minmatar Militia's track record for actually being able to conquer the warzone is.... wait.... it's non-existent...
So much for 'you' being able to affect a meaningful change.
In the Militias? Certainly not. If you'd actually comprehended basic text, you'd note that I've always said militia progress affects nothing. Even the post you quote says it. Meaningful changes I've accomplished have almost always been on personal levels with my clan, or through extreme measures outside the militias.
If you'd like to argue against my accomplishments, I suggest picking ones where we aren't already in agreement. |
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
1523
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Posted - 2016.01.13 16:47:06 -
[158] - Quote
Always sad to see people resorting to ad personam when their argument fails. |
Mitara Newelle
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
303
|
Posted - 2016.01.13 21:08:34 -
[159] - Quote
MIzzy? Aldiboo?
....Anyhow.... I will correct Captain Shutaq and say - no, you should not be fighting against the Amarr. Do everyone a service by returning to your home. The less time that must be spent repelling invaders of Amarr space - that would be you, Minmatar - means more time for my own family to be together.
"Roleplaying beats tournament experience" - CCP Fozzie, Amarr Championships YC 117.11.08
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Mizhara Del'thul
T.R.I.A.D Ushra'Khan
525
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Posted - 2016.01.13 21:11:28 -
[160] - Quote
It was almost Aldipoo, but I think the average reading comprehension of the IGS would lead to the belief it was scatological in nature. |
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Aldrith Shutaq
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1252
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Posted - 2016.01.13 21:57:30 -
[161] - Quote
We both know that she is far too deluded to see the reasoning in that, dear. Best to gently sublimate her brutish, violent nature into a pursuit that could possibly be vaguely seen as noble and leave it at that. |
Mizhara Del'thul
T.R.I.A.D Ushra'Khan
528
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Posted - 2016.01.13 22:01:37 -
[162] - Quote
Oh, I'd be more than happy to stay with the clan. Just release the rest of my people so they can do the same, and I'll leave Empire space for good. If anything, I'd be too busy to even be in space. It'd let all of us focus on our own in our own territories, and let the mindless howling apes both our sides have to contend with fling their feces at each other without us ever having to get involved again. |
Aldrith Shutaq
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1252
|
Posted - 2016.01.13 22:07:06 -
[163] - Quote
The best way to free them is to lay down your arms and prove to every Holder that Minmatar are worth freeing. |
Mizhara Del'thul
T.R.I.A.D Ushra'Khan
528
|
Posted - 2016.01.13 22:14:02 -
[164] - Quote
Given what history has shown throughout... well, all of recorded history, you'll have to forgive us for not trusting the Empire to ever willingly release anything until the indoctrination is complete. |
Aldrith Shutaq
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1253
|
Posted - 2016.01.13 22:19:01 -
[165] - Quote
It is still a better option than what you are trying. |
Mizhara Del'thul
T.R.I.A.D Ushra'Khan
529
|
Posted - 2016.01.13 22:21:13 -
[166] - Quote
Given the amount of men, women and children who now live free thanks to efforts made by some of us, I'm afraid you can't back that statement up with anything but unsubstantiated claims. |
Aldrith Shutaq
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1254
|
Posted - 2016.01.13 22:35:09 -
[167] - Quote
Ah, yes, the few tens of thousands you freed compared to the millions that were forcibly bred in that time, and the billions that had their leashes tightened because of your loud, frighting, explosive actions that cause holders to forget they are supposed to be educating their charges, not guarding them from raids and themselves from insurrection.
There are only two outcomes of actions such as yours: the genocide of the Minmatar people, or the genocide of the Amarr people. I already know which you would prefer, but I do not think either option is preferable compared to a peaceful transition that could leave both of our nations intact.
But please, I'm sorry for interrupting your short-sighted train of thought. Where were we going with this? Oh, yes! Go back to Auga and set up a base. You'll need to bolster your border if you don't want the Crusade's forward momentum to overtake your homelands. |
Mizhara Del'thul
T.R.I.A.D Ushra'Khan
529
|
Posted - 2016.01.13 22:42:56 -
[168] - Quote
The Crusade could take the entire warzone and it'd have no effect on my homelands. Territory has never mattered for much but bragging rights in the proxy wars, you know that.
That you're trying to blame outsiders for your own kind forcibly breeding slaves and the suffering you inflict upon them is rather telling, though. I wonder if you actually believe that nonsensical drivel? Ah well, chickens and eggs. It matters little. While you inflict suffering upon my people, I am bound tighter than any chains could to double my efforts and the money I funnel into the staircase and other means. Whichever causes which doesn't really seem to matter, it'd seem.
You'll never willingly release them, so we will have to forcibly take them. |
Kador Ouryon
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
82
|
Posted - 2016.01.13 22:46:12 -
[169] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:The Crusade could take the entire warzone and it'd have no effect on my homelands. Territory has never mattered for much but bragging rights in the proxy wars, you know that.
That you're trying to blame outsiders for your own kind forcibly breeding slaves and the suffering you inflict upon them is rather telling, though. I wonder if you actually believe that nonsensical drivel? Ah well, chickens and eggs. It matters little. While you inflict suffering upon my people, I am bound tighter than any chains could to double my efforts and the money I funnel into the staircase and other means. Whichever causes which doesn't really seem to matter, it'd seem.
You'll never willingly release them, so we will have to forcibly take them.
You have an historic example of the Empire willingly releasing slaves and you choose to disregard it and that never again should this repeat... how short sighted. |
Mizhara Del'thul
T.R.I.A.D Ushra'Khan
530
|
Posted - 2016.01.13 22:53:15 -
[170] - Quote
Kador Ouryon wrote:You have an historic example of the Empire willingly releasing slaves and you choose to disregard it and that never again should this repeat... how short sighted.
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:Given what history has shown throughout... well, all of recorded history, you'll have to forgive us for not trusting the Empire to ever willingly release anything until the indoctrination is complete.
You still haven't seemed to master that "reading the posts in the thread before responding" concept, have you? |
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Mitara Newelle
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
305
|
Posted - 2016.01.13 23:03:22 -
[171] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:Just release the rest of my people... It has been said and demonstrated more times than I can remember, but apparently it needs repeating - Those of Matari blood living within the Empire are not your people any longer, they are our people, and have been for quite some time. You have no claim to them.
"Roleplaying beats tournament experience" - CCP Fozzie, Amarr Championships YC 117.11.08
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Aldrith Shutaq
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1254
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Posted - 2016.01.13 23:15:15 -
[172] - Quote
Oh Mizhara... so very good at arguing, but also so very bad.
I am sorry for the miscommunication. I did not mean to suggest that the violent actions of free Minmatar are solely to blame for the poor treatment of Minamtar slaves, but that they exasperated it. I think I have already made my position on slavery clear, including how it should be properly conducted and how the Reclaiming ought to be pursued in lieu of the conquest and further enslavement of the cluster. I may be inclined to change those ideas, however, now that my family have been made Sarum holders. Still, despite the political risks I incur to myself, I will endeavor to express my ideals as best as I may, to the betterment of both our peoples and humanity at large. You are welcome for that.
Anyway, having addressed your faux pas in calling me a believer of nonsensical drivel (which I am most certainly not, I actively fight against that sort of thing), I would like to address your final statement.
Empress Jamyl I, God rest her soul, freed more slaves with a single decree than free Matari ever have in all their days of raiding and fighting, save for in the rebellion itself. You will not achieve your goals with violence, and even if it were possible, the cost would be so great that you would have become far worse than what you fight. Despite what you think, it is possible to be freed from bondage in the Empire. The Udorians did it, we Ni-Kunni did it, and I have faith that the Matari will do it as well. It will take time, and internal pressure towards official reform and cultural evolution, but it will happen, even if it is slowed by the willfully ignorant such as yourself. |
Mizhara Del'thul
T.R.I.A.D Ushra'Khan
531
|
Posted - 2016.01.13 23:39:29 -
[173] - Quote
Mitara Newelle wrote:Mizhara Del'thul wrote:Just release the rest of my people... It has been said and demonstrated more times than I can remember, but apparently it needs repeating - Those of Matari blood living within the Empire are not your people any longer, they are our people, and have been for quite some time. You have no claim to them.
Your kind demonstrated quite eloquently that having a claim is rather irrelevant if you have the strength to take them. They weren't yours to take back then, nor are they yours now. They belong to themselves and until they are freed they do not have the agency to be their own.
You can feel free to claim otherwise of course, but just like my words will not make you let my people go, I doubt you'll be able to stop me from taking them myself. So far, neither have your armed forces.
Quote:Anyway, having addressed your faux pas in calling me a believer of nonsensical drivel (which I am most certainly not, I actively fight against that sort of thing), I would like to address your final statement.
I'd say it was fair game to question if that were the case.
Quote:Empress Jamyl I, God rest her soul, freed more slaves with a single decree than free Matari ever have in all their days of raiding and fighting, save for in the rebellion itself. You will not achieve your goals with violence, and even if it were possible, the cost would be so great that you would have become far worse than what you fight. Despite what you think, it is possible to be freed from bondage in the Empire. The Udorians did it, we Ni-Kunni did it, and I have faith that the Matari will do it as well. It will take time, and internal pressure towards official reform and cultural evolution, but it will happen, even if it is slowed by the willfully ignorant such as yourself.
I think we've gone over this bit a few dozen times by now, but I suppose we can do it again.
Your #NoEmpress freed no slaves. She took countless poor indoctrinated souls and used them as ammunition in the greatest weapon ever fired upon another nation in known history. Unleashing indoctrinated zealots in countless numbers upon the Tribes, in what I'll admit was a masterful double strike letting her use it for propaganda and public relations while doing quite significant financial and systemic damage to the Tribes. It's brilliant. It's genius. It's one of the greatest acts of evil in modern history.
The amount of suffering she inflicted on them and others with that act of war is immeasurable, I suspect.
This is yet another example of what I have been saying all along. You will never release anything that isn't already indoctrinated and broken.
I wonder what it'd look like if every first-generation slave was freed? First and second, perhaps? Third? I imagine that'd be a less... successful weapon against us. |
Aldrith Shutaq
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1254
|
Posted - 2016.01.14 00:11:04 -
[174] - Quote
I see. You are not interested in seeing people freed from slavery, only people who agree with you. |
Mizhara Del'thul
T.R.I.A.D Ushra'Khan
533
|
Posted - 2016.01.14 00:17:06 -
[175] - Quote
That's a rather liberal re-interpretation of what I said. There's a difference between freeing people from slavery and using them as a weapon. Free them all and let them go where they please, no matter their generation, faith or political stance. That'd be freeing slaves and people.
The poor fools you used as weapons will unfortunately be slaves the rest of their lives, leashed more firmly than anything you can physically inflict upon a human being.
Don't pretend you don't see the difference. It is unbecoming to lie quite so blatantly. |
Kador Ouryon
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
82
|
Posted - 2016.01.14 01:12:45 -
[176] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:
You still haven't seemed to master that "reading the posts in the thread before responding" concept, have you?
I did miss that so fair point. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
5839
|
Posted - 2016.01.14 06:14:52 -
[177] - Quote
Interesting... Mizhara, are you seriously positing a hard limit of three generations for the release of slaves of Minmatar descent? That might constitute an actual starting point for negotiations.
"Caldari Prime burns, those left behind are choking on the dust and ash that fills the air, and you demand our surrender? Is this a joke? You have only hardened our resolve. Every drop of blood you have taken from us will be repaid -- with interest."
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Mizhara Del'thul
T.R.I.A.D Ushra'Khan
535
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Posted - 2016.01.14 06:49:05 -
[178] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Interesting... Mizhara, are you seriously positing a hard limit of three generations for the release of slaves of Minmatar descent? That might constitute an actual starting point for negotiations.
It would seem I may have chosen my words poorly there. I wasn't considering that at all, but now that you mention it the subject might be worthy of discussion and deliberation, even though I think for most of us it's "all of them, or the fight continues". It'll probably be so for me. They don't need to be Tribes friendly to deserve freedom and have this inhumane and barbaric practice forced upon them.
Still, it is certainly an interesting notion that I would have to think about and consider with care. Probably reach out to the experienced specialists we used during our attempts to undo the massive conditioning and indoctrination and get their data and opinions, for that matter.
I was not positing a hard limit, no, but for transparency's sake this discussion should be had in case it has merit. I doubt it, in the end, but no stone unturned etc. |
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
2330
|
Posted - 2016.01.14 10:41:34 -
[179] - Quote
I don't know, why are you even talking with this tribal dog. It is already clear that she comes for "her people", as she calls Amarr citizens of Minmatar origin to kidnap them. She is a terrorist and rabid dog that's better be shot down instead of being talked to.
Mizhara lacks ability to learn and understand, she is blinded by her hatred. People like her will never learn disregarding how logical your reasons will be and how many you will repeat them.
Really. Just shoot her down.
Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.
In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
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Grash Uriza
Calibrated Chaos Triumvirate.
31
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Posted - 2016.01.15 03:33:42 -
[180] - Quote
ValentinaDLM wrote:
There were not standing orders "not to engage" HB. There isn't anyone in any position in the Minmatar milita that could even give or enforce an order like that.
Where's the a whip there's a way. It's just that we were holding the whip. |
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