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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.01.11 18:48:00 -
[1]
Personally I am flying a nanocurse now and, yes, nanosetups are in 1v1 basically unkillable exept by another nanoship or a huggin/rapier.
But saying the minnie recons balance this is like saying ECM was perfectly balanced pre-kali, all you needed to counter it were another ECM ship or a ship with 3 ECCM fitted.
The really important thing is not that there is a counter, but if the counter is common/acessible enough.
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.01.11 19:41:00 -
[2]
Although at that time there were no minnie recons. Which *are* an effective counter for nanosetups. But they are not enough. As was said, you can nano pretty much everything. The setup/counter relation is not suficcient.
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.01.11 23:34:00 -
[3]
Originally by: R'adeh About NOS, what's wrong with a bigger ship being able to NOS a smaller ship??? Yes, NOS has become an offensive weapon, but just as with speed setups there are counters: Overwhelming damage, passive tank (extenders/plates), cap boosters, range, etc.
Seriously, adaptadaptadaptadaptadaptadapt...
The point you either miss or ignore is that intys simply cannot hold nanosetups because you need cap to run webs and warp disruptors. Meaning their are no counter to them.
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.01.11 23:53:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Gamesguy Actually you can, blackbird jams and something like a stiletto to scram/web, dead nanophoon coming up.
Granted, if you ECM or dampen them intys will be able to tackle them. But *only* then. Or if you send 4-5 intys at once vs it (aka blob it) so it simply cannot nos them all dry before they manage to slow it enough. But every nanopilot with a brain will warp away assoon as he gets ECM or damperners on them.
Speedtanks are IMO just too effective.
Imagine: - heavy nos would be removed from the game - active shield/armortanks would be so redicously effective that you would need 5 ships of equal size DPSing to break the tank.
Only way to kill ships with an active armor/shieldtank then would be either blobbing the ship or having a curse with nos/neuts to suck it dry. Balanced? Not really. Thats about how it is vs speetanks atm.
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.01.12 01:45:00 -
[5]
Originally by: HankMurphy ppl dont understand that nano setups have been around a loooong time. so why do we see so many nowadays?
The buffed inertia stabs and speed rigs gave nanosetups a MAJOR boost.
A curse with 4 LH nanos and a t2 10MN MWD goes 2500 mps, a curse with 2 LH nanos and instabs, a t2 10MN MWD and 2 MWD speed rigs goes 3500 mps. The difference is even bigger for t1 ships which can use 3 rigs.
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.01.14 13:56:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Ryysa That's a load of crap, your domi cost 65m, local hull istabs/nanos already cost 5-7m a pop, please stop talking bs, you've probably never even flown a nanodomi. Domi with 2x local istab / 3x nano does not go faster than 3000m/s without rigs. Fitting more than 2 Inertial Stabs gives you less speed than fitting 2 inertia stabs and nanos.
There is a thing called insurance, meaning the actual cost of a domi is only about 25 mil.
Cannot comment about the speed thing since I cannot lfy a domi. Should be able to "emulate" on the test server, but have problems with the latest patch there.
Quote: Err, actually, no you can't lock over 7km unless said celestis doesn't have any skills at all, if you want i can do the math calculation for you. In fact, you are going to have about 5km targeting range without running sensor booster.
You might actually want to run to math first next time, because 7km is exactly what a domi with long range targetting 4 will get when dampened by a celestis with 3 t2 SDs with cruiser and spec skill on lvl 4.
Quote: If you have any EW ship with you, nanoship can't lock you. No lock = no NOS
Not really. If you have a SD ship the nanoship will simply fly close and pop it. And ECM ship will get drone aggro. And you will also need a damage dealer in either case.
That you need 3 *specifically fitted* ships to have a real chance of killing a nnaosetup is more a sign of its imbalance than it's balance.
Quote: Maybe try killing something else than NPC hunter in belt with your nano ship? nooblet. I can kill hunter in belt also with my AC tempest, F1-F8, Rep on, make coffee.
A ship with a PvP setup has about the same chance against a nanoship than one with a NPC setup. So that point is pretty pointless.
Quote: Ya rly and it costs less than nanoship.
Not after insurance payout. And also needs far far more training time and will die to an nanoBS easily. Doesn't changes anything there either.
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.01.15 18:48:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Aramendel on 15/01/2007 18:48:23
Originally by: Kagura Nikon If you spend 2-3 billion on a nanosetup, it will be uber.
Exept this exactly is a whole load of bull.
A nanodomi with none-faction fitting will "only" go 3 km/s. But now spend a meansly 200 mil for the best faction 100mn MWD and 3 vent rigs and you have an 90% better MWD speed compared to t2 without rigs.
If you spend 1-2 bil on snakes (which, as a sidenote, if you halfway know what you are doing you won't loose when the ship goes boom) you can get it to 8-9 km/s, but 5-6 km/s for 200 mil is plenty of "uberness" to make it too strong - and still cheap enough to be a viable "everyday" setup.
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.01.15 18:59:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Nicocat As for being dumb, well, a SMART pilot is hard to take down no matter the ship he's in, now isn't he? No module or item is foolproof, I'm just trying to offer options.
The point is that a SMART pilot in a nanoship is far far far harder to take down as a SMART pilot in a normal ship.
They are not impossible to take down, no, and I think noone ever said this. But *what* is taking them down also kills normal ships as well (being dumb/not knowing how to fly ones ship included).
But on top of this they have several situations where they can survive where a normal ship will die. But none where the opposite is the case. Resulting in a net advantage of nanosetups.
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.01.16 10:31:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Aramendel on 16/01/2007 10:31:33
Originally by: Kagura Nikon And with same price you can make a tank ship that will ignore any firepower incomming from a Nanoship. A simple Dominix with all rack of NOS and drones but heavily tanked will just sit there ignoring the nanodomini and killing its drones while counter nossing it
Not really. All it shows is that a ship with more nos can counter a nanosetup. "Counter" in making it retreat I might add. Everything else dies. Because even the best tank does not work well without cap.
And if you now want to give me the bright response "not nano stuff is uber, only nos" nanosetups are not called that way because they are only using 1 nanofiber. It's the whole combination of them with nos, speed rigs (which keep getting cheaper) and the new instabs.
Snakes and faction MWDs are only the cream on the top, but a domi or phoon can reach the magical 5 km/s area easily without them.
Quote: About the nanoship running away. LIve with that! That is all what speed is about, the chance of running away! Not all combat has to be to death!
The point is when a ship has a *significant* survival advantage it has to have some disadvantages to balance this. You do not see inties with the dps of battleships.
Quote: No its not easy to kill a nanoship. But is also not easy to kill an uber tank !
It's fairly easy to kill a uber tank. You only need more Nos than it. Or more dps than it can tank at best. Nos > all works vs a nanoship, too, but you can have 10 times as much dps as you would need to kill it if it tanked normally, it would be of no use if you do not have the required *specialized* combo to take it down.
Quote: Play the game as you like and try to overcome the others that play the way they like.
My current main PvP ship is a nanocurse. The only way to kill it is either blobbing (which I can avoid since it handles like an inty) or another nanosetup which is faster than me (and has more nos power). Anything which is slower than it is killable (with the exeption of a too good passive shield tank, but you do not see many of those in PvP).
I am trying to nerf MY way pf playing because it is plain out too strong.
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.01.16 11:14:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Ryysa Btw, 3x mwd/ab speed rigs = 150m atm.
If you buy them in jita maybe. With a researched BPO (bought mine for 3 mil) a PE5 alt or corpmate and buy orders for the raw mats they cost you 30mil per at most. And as said, rig prices will fall further.
And, no, I do not consider 90 mil for a speed boost about as high as you get from highgrade snakes much. A fleet fitted mega or rokh has to pay more for it's guns. And everything else in the outfit is cheap.
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.01.16 11:20:00 -
[11]
The key difference is that if things go south (for example if local has suddenly 5 people more and your target won't die anytime soon) a nanophoon can disengage. A tankphoon will get blobbed.
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.01.16 17:29:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Aramendel on 16/01/2007 17:29:18
Originally by: Ryysa Ever heard of opportunity cost? buying said bpo, building said things = time = effort. It costs something too. If there are 100 of them from different sellers on jita market for 50m, then their current market price is 50m. When it is 30m, it's 30m. Ofcourse it's cheaper to make everything yourself, yet that doesn't change it's market value.
They do not sell themselves on their own though, either. Selling something which has multiple seller and which is falling in price requires constantly updating your sell orders. Which is an opportunity cost in itself.
Also, as said, rigs are new and therefore highly profitable right now. In the next months we will get more producers and reduced demand, meaning the price will fall. In the end it will go the way of other t1 items where the finished product is worth only slightly more than it's raw mats. Looking at rig prices now without taking their developement for the future into account is pretty unwise, too.
Quote: You fail pretty bad at economics if you use this as argument ;)
At least I didn't ignore insurance for ship costs or overexaggerated the costs for nanoBS with intyspeed by the factor of 5
Anyway, this sidepoint is derailing the thread. Point is that it does not really cost as much to setup a good nanoship compared to other setups.
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.01.16 23:55:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Aramendel on 16/01/2007 23:53:36 Personally I would simply flag the MWD speed boost effect of the vent rigs and the inertia bonus of instabs/nano for the stacking penality.
This would stop nanoBS being as agile as frigs - 6 * LH anos/instabs reduce a ships inertia to 0.37 of its original, if -inertia had a stacking penality it would only get a reduction to 0.63 of it. Giving the MWD speed rigs a stacking penality would reduce the speed boost of 3 vent rigs from about 45% to about 35%. Effeciently a 7% reduction of it's speed. Not too much, but combined with the significantly reduced agility it might be enough.
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.01.17 10:40:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon no this IS NOT BROKEN! This is hit an run tactics! Sicne the HP boost form teh past and recent. that is the only way to do hit and run. The only thing wrong here is taht Hit and run shoudl be a minmatar tactics, but gallente can do it better!
Limiting a too strong setup on one race does not make it less overpowered.
Neither does a racial speciality excuse something being too strong. Take for example amarr - less flexibility but very good gank & tank. Which gave us the old gankgeddon. Which basically made all other DPS BS obsolete. As result it got nerfed - or betterm pulses got nerfed and the stacking penality got increased - and now it's while still strong by far not overpowering.
And, as a sidenote, minnie ships can do hit & run tactics still better than gallente ships. A typhoon is faster than a domi with the same setup.
Also, hit & run tactics do not involve attacking the main force, getting kills and retreating. It's going after supply, lone stragglers, getting a kill and retreating before the main force arrives. You do not see guerillias attacking an army unless they intend it to be a suicide attack.
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.01.17 15:03:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon Hit and run is attacking the weakest point on the main combat force and withdraw before you can be counter engaged effectively. The best example was the Luftwaffe tactics during ww2, where their faster planes would dive upon allied planes hit them hard and withdraw immediatelly, since they were no match in continuous low level combat.
We want Hit and Run, not guerrilha tactics, thjat do not require speed, but stealthness.
You said it yourself - "the weakest point". You do not saw such tactics used against an concentrated enemy force as it is possible with speedsetups.
Basically, the problem is that the hit & run tactics in eve are too effective atm. The air combat example is actually good to show this. In order to utilize their hit & run tactics the german fighters needed an height advantage, used this to makee a strafing run and then disengaged. If it would be like in eve they would meet at even height and then fly circles around the other planes.
A nanoship vs normal ships combat is more like fighters vs bombers, exept that the "bombers" are fighters, too.
If nanoBS would not have inty-like agility and could only make strafing runs because orbiting at high speed isn't possible you wouldn't see nearly as many complaints about them.
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.01.18 11:28:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon But i Kind of agree that would be enough balanced that nanoships would need to move in and out of the scramble range to make a second pass. That would make them unable to lock an enemy in fight. So it would be fair.. both sides can decide to bug out...
Can you be satisfied with that?
Oh, a possibility of a consensus?
Yes, it would at least make them balanced IMO. Their advantage of high survivability would be balanced by a high survivability of their target.
NanoBS would be able to overcome this by flying in pairs, of cource and timing their flybys so always 1 WD the target, but that would be IMO ok because that would actually require a bit of skill and teamwork.
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.01.18 12:38:00 -
[17]
They would simply have to flag the -inertia bonus of nanofibers and instabs for the stacking penality. It would almost half the agility bonus for a ship with 6 of them. Maybe reduce the bonus itself a bit as well if that isn't enough.
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.02 10:16:00 -
[18]
Speed, yes. However, it will be never be able, no matter what it does, to turn as fast as the lighter car/ship.
And, of cource, space in eve does not behave like "real" space does. It's more like a giant waterfilled area with the resulting physics. In real space ships would not stop moving unless you apply counter-thrust, for example.
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