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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.01.16 23:55:00 -
[331]
Edited by: Aramendel on 16/01/2007 23:53:36 Personally I would simply flag the MWD speed boost effect of the vent rigs and the inertia bonus of instabs/nano for the stacking penality.
This would stop nanoBS being as agile as frigs - 6 * LH anos/instabs reduce a ships inertia to 0.37 of its original, if -inertia had a stacking penality it would only get a reduction to 0.63 of it. Giving the MWD speed rigs a stacking penality would reduce the speed boost of 3 vent rigs from about 45% to about 35%. Effeciently a 7% reduction of it's speed. Not too much, but combined with the significantly reduced agility it might be enough.
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Ms Chen
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Posted - 2007.01.17 00:42:00 -
[332]
couldn't they create an artificial cap on speed for something like this? I mean this is a game and all and we suspend belief on a lot of things and it's pretty easy to for me at least since i don't understand physics beyond a high school 101 class, but wouldn't something that big have problems with structural integrity or something. It's really difficult to allow myself to believe something that size going 3 km/s. I know artificially capping speed is pretty invasive on a developer part, but it seems natural instead of nerfing a mod that only needs to be nerfed because oversized ships are going insane speeds.
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Vicious Phoenix
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Posted - 2007.01.17 00:59:00 -
[333]
Edited by: Vicious Phoenix on 17/01/2007 00:56:16
Originally by: Ms Chen couldn't they create an artificial cap on speed for something like this? I mean this is a game and all and we suspend belief on a lot of things and it's pretty easy to for me at least since i don't understand physics beyond a high school 101 class, but wouldn't something that big have problems with structural integrity or something. It's really difficult to allow myself to believe something that size going 3 km/s. I know artificially capping speed is pretty invasive on a developer part, but it seems natural instead of nerfing a mod that only needs to be nerfed because oversized ships are going insane speeds.
Not at all, the speed doesn't matter (no resistance). The acceleration is what isn't possible. Then again warp isn't possible either since you go faster that light. Shall we remove that too? Have fun MWD'ing between gates with your new speed cap'd ship.
CFW (Certified Forum Warrior) I kill people ingame too. |
Plymer Ization
Infinitus Odium Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.17 01:30:00 -
[334]
Originally by: Ms Chen couldn't they create an artificial cap on speed for something like this? I mean this is a game and all and we suspend belief on a lot of things and it's pretty easy to for me at least since i don't understand physics beyond a high school 101 class, but wouldn't something that big have problems with structural integrity or something. It's really difficult to allow myself to believe something that size going 3 km/s. I know artificially capping speed is pretty invasive on a developer part, but it seems natural instead of nerfing a mod that only needs to be nerfed because oversized ships are going insane speeds.
If you want to talk about structural integrity, how about we remove the structure HP penalty and add this:
"10% chance of ship disintegration while MWD active"
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Leon 026
Caldari Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.01.17 01:44:00 -
[335]
You know there's something horribly messed up when a battleship is flying faster than an interceptor. -------
Leon 026 Once I was fallen, now I have wings |
Ms Chen
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Posted - 2007.01.17 01:46:00 -
[336]
Originally by: Plymer Ization
Originally by: Ms Chen couldn't they create an artificial cap on speed for something like this? I mean this is a game and all and we suspend belief on a lot of things and it's pretty easy to for me at least since i don't understand physics beyond a high school 101 class, but wouldn't something that big have problems with structural integrity or something. It's really difficult to allow myself to believe something that size going 3 km/s. I know artificially capping speed is pretty invasive on a developer part, but it seems natural instead of nerfing a mod that only needs to be nerfed because oversized ships are going insane speeds.
If you want to talk about structural integrity, how about we remove the structure HP penalty and add this:
"10% chance of ship disintegration while MWD active"
lol, that would be quite awesome.
Originally by: Vicious Phoenix Edited by: Vicious Phoenix on 17/01/2007 00:56:16
Originally by: Ms Chen couldn't they create an artificial cap on speed for something like this? I mean this is a game and all and we suspend belief on a lot of things and it's pretty easy to for me at least since i don't understand physics beyond a high school 101 class, but wouldn't something that big have problems with structural integrity or something. It's really difficult to allow myself to believe something that size going 3 km/s. I know artificially capping speed is pretty invasive on a developer part, but it seems natural instead of nerfing a mod that only needs to be nerfed because oversized ships are going insane speeds.
Not at all, the speed doesn't matter (no resistance). The acceleration is what isn't possible. Then again warp isn't possible either since you go faster that light. Shall we remove that too? Have fun MWD'ing between gates with your new speed cap'd ship.
like I said, we all suspend disbelief, my beef is just this one thing because CCP backstory has all of these fancy pseudo-science and flat out sci-fi words that at least indicate some sort of theory within Eve. It's just this one thing that my brain isn't comfortable with. I've never flown a nano-BS nor have I ever fought one personally. It's just strange and something doesn't fit for me. But that's just me, if the rest of the community can accept then hey, not much i can do but accept it after a while or at least accept that it's a part of the game.
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Hazelnut
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Posted - 2007.01.17 01:50:00 -
[337]
Originally by: Vicious Phoenix Edited by: Vicious Phoenix on 17/01/2007 00:56:16
Originally by: Ms Chen couldn't they create an artificial cap on speed for something like this? I mean this is a game and all and we suspend belief on a lot of things and it's pretty easy to for me at least since i don't understand physics beyond a high school 101 class, but wouldn't something that big have problems with structural integrity or something. It's really difficult to allow myself to believe something that size going 3 km/s. I know artificially capping speed is pretty invasive on a developer part, but it seems natural instead of nerfing a mod that only needs to be nerfed because oversized ships are going insane speeds.
Not at all, the speed doesn't matter (no resistance). The acceleration is what isn't possible. Then again warp isn't possible either since you go faster that light. Shall we remove that too? Have fun MWD'ing between gates with your new speed cap'd ship.
If there is no resistance, why doesn't my 200mm autocannon shoot across space?
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Arian Snow
The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.01.17 02:01:00 -
[338]
Edited by: Arian Snow on 17/01/2007 02:05:44
Give Nos tracking ... YES please! problem solved!
I dont remember I dont recall I dont have memory of anything at all! |
Tisanta
Amarr Dragonfire Intergalactic Crusaders of Krom
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Posted - 2007.01.17 02:05:00 -
[339]
Originally by: Arian Snow Edited by: Arian Snow on 17/01/2007 01:59:37 Give Nos tracking ... YES please! problem solved!
yay that means pilly will still work DO IT CCP DO IT! ---
Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes |
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Karass Sayfo
Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department
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Posted - 2007.01.17 02:23:00 -
[340]
Cleaning thread. Further trolling, unconstructive comments and flaming will be warned. Please keep the discussion/debate constructive and smack-free. Thanks!
- Karass _______
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xbreaka
Cirrius Technologies O X I D E
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Posted - 2007.01.17 03:36:00 -
[341]
listen you chumps, minmatar which are what most of the nano ships are, nanophoon, vaga etc have sucked for the longest time compared to you uber gallente blaster pwnmobiles, we finally get a viable way to combat all of that using speed, and you want to nerf us :(
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McRuder
Gallente New Light Schism.
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Posted - 2007.01.17 07:12:00 -
[342]
nerfing mods is not the solution, as it will just create another FOTM that needs to be nerfed ... rinse & repeat. Nerfing makes the game unplayable in the end. Rather experiment and find a viable counter ... and if there is none then scream for an mod upgrade.
In this case get webbers upgraded to use a skillset to increase range & effect. Nano ships require several skills to operate effectively, and even sets of implants, so a counter should be just as effective skills based.
Everytime someone puts in the work & thought to create a good setup within available game mechanics, that the rest dont know how to counter, then players start screaming NERF!
Try using fast frigs with webbers, or webber drones with range and mwd upgrades, or tracking disruptors, or ecm & nos ... all these are within the game and can catch and/or counter nano ships.
o/
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Plague Black
4S Corporation
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Posted - 2007.01.17 07:31:00 -
[343]
There is no need to nerf nanos. Nanoships can't beat anything of the same size as them (unless its a ceptor, which is another class of combat). Lets take nanophoon for example, or nanodomi. No tank at all, so ship of the same size with tank would own them with no sweat broken.****abond? Not worth commenthing as this ship is designed for ganking indies and barges and not for any fair-play PVP.
If you have problems with nano ships here is your recipe for handling them:
Add 1 huggin and 1 Lachesis to gang. Huggin must be equipped with triple web and lachesis needs only one scrambler and 4 dampeners. Since nano ships has no tank it will die defencless (unless its domi, rare example to be honest, but even then just pick on his drones one by one, already done here).
You don't need any more ships then these 2. Problem is that you need 2 of those per nano-runner so if you are facing a gang of 5 nano-runners just get 10 of recons... or 3 close range bs-es, they will run anyway:)
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Vmir Gallahasen
Gallente Omniscient Order
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Posted - 2007.01.17 07:53:00 -
[344]
Quote: You know there's something horribly messed up when a battleship is flying faster than an interceptor.
Why do I see this quoted everywhere when talk goes to nano ships? Is there some particular reason you can't fit istabs/nanos on an interceptor now?
A speed inty will always be faster than a speed battleship. I see 9-12 km/s crows all the time and nobody even thinks twice, but a bs going a blazing 3km/s "flying past all those interceptors" draws comment ... remarkable.
Is my speed battleship going to beat some 1v1 situations? Yes, yes it is. Why? Because to get a reasonable speed, I spend anywhere from 100-300m on mods for a "basic" fitting with no snakes and as you should know, enough of a boost in something can make a setup extremely effective.
What would I fear in my speed battleship? A dampener or two could render nearly any ship invulnerable. Crow + dampener? I'll be forced away. Two crows, one with a dampener and one with a web? I'll end up inty meat.
Rapier/huginn obviously nasty.
Any well-fitted sniping ship, tempests probably my most feared.
Any ship that gets close enough with a small nos (runs webber + scrambler intermittently, but enough to slow me down and have me killed easily by others).
Well-tanked cap-injected ship with a pilot experienced enough to take out my drones.
Few cruisers who watch the orbit, and MWD at the right time to catch me.
Consider solo PvP -- ship HP increases and the current lame ctrl+Q 40-second disappear exploit I see a few times an hour has forced us to adapt, and one way to fight growing blobs is to be in a fast, agile ship. Inty is the obvious choice, but it lacks the survivability and/or damage to cause any serious trouble. Then come the nano ships, which are quite effective in a variety of situations. Not as fast or as agile as an inty, but greater damage output and better durability. Of course, it costs up to 12 times or more what an inty would cost, but that's the price we pay.
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Olivin
Gallente Aquarium
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Posted - 2007.01.17 08:08:00 -
[345]
This thread stinks and there are lot of whiners here.
Nano setups are fine. I use one. With snakes and faction modes I can get about 6km/s out of my domi. Yes, I will probably pwn you. Suck you dry and let my drones kill you slowly. But, this setup cost about 3 bill ( with implants) and I have 7 mil sp in drones alone. So, I will be very disappointed if you will survive or escape me in your your pathetic stock/standard setup, capiche?
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WeŚre not lost. WeŚre locationally challenged. |
Gabriel Karade
Nulli-Secundus
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Posted - 2007.01.17 09:30:00 -
[346]
The size of ones wallet is irrelevent, nano setup battleships are not fine... ----------
Video - 'War-Machine' |
Kagura Nikon
Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE FREGE Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.17 09:31:00 -
[347]
Again. for the ones that still try to put to the public the LIE that the only way to fight a nano ship is with a nanoship. Turrets track them pretty well!!
Get a tempest. Fit dual425 2 track Computers And fit the rest with about the same isk you spent to fit teh said nano ship. You reaally need to be a bad pilot or have really lower skills to die to a nanphoon ...
your turrets will tracks him as easy as to take candy from a child! His signature is the size of a moon!!!!
If brute force doesn't solve your problem.. then you are not using enough!! |
Hank Showbo
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Posted - 2007.01.17 09:33:00 -
[348]
Originally by: Leon 026 You know there's something horribly messed up when a battleship is flying faster than an interceptor.
I dont see why not, the only battleships I've seen fitted for speed are those with faction mods.
And realistically, an intercepter takes a 1MN MWD, battleship takes a 100MN MWD. The battleship one is 100X more powerful. Add intertias to make the MWD seem like an oversized one and nanos to balance the base speed with MWD speed. I dont see why a battleship should not be able to fly faster than an inty.
Now if maybe the drone AI didnt suck, then a lot of you would not complain.
As for the turret users, when I fly nano-BS with MWD have have the sig radius of over 2500, thats 2.5 carriers
I beleive the t1/t2 fitted NanoBS is ok, max speed I have got from my phoon is about 2.8K with t2 MWD, and 3 local inertias and 3 local nanos. Faction fit ones are causing you all to write in...zomg 6-7KM BS, so if there was a nerf for these ships, I would only nerf the faction mods, end of.
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Marcus Quo
Axe Gang
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Posted - 2007.01.17 09:40:00 -
[349]
Edited by: Marcus Quo on 17/01/2007 09:38:43 First off, let me say I fly a Nanodomi and love it. Between rigs and implants, I can go 6km/s.
The problem isn't that I can take on anything I want solo. If I spent as much money on faction tanking gear for a Domi, I could still solo any BS easy, possibly two.
The problem is the fact that I can engage a small fleet without risk of losing my ship, and get kills if I do it right. I've attacked two Ravens, an Abaddon, and two drakes, all of which were in a belt ratting TOGEATHER. I got out just barely into armor with a drake killmail. Someone please tell me this isn't broken.
Now, I know someone will just say "lawl lrn 2 counter." You shouldn't NEED a recon ship in every single gang to avoid getting killed by a nanoship. People fit basic counters into most fleets. Eve is built that way. You can tackle without an interceptor, you can fit T2 weapons without a HAC, etc. But you CAN'T web a good nano ship without a Min Recon. Don't tell me intys are the answer, I can outrun an average inty pilot, or let them catch up to me, nos their cap and pop them before they get a chance to do anything.
Basically, no amount of cash should turn a 10v1 PvP situation into a victory for the single pilot unless you're in something slow and vulnerable, like a cap ship. Nanoships can disengage at will, so they're never really at risk when PvPing.
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Phelan Lore
Sniggerdly
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Posted - 2007.01.17 10:12:00 -
[350]
Originally by: Marcus Quo But you CAN'T web a good nano ship without a Min Recon.
I just killed one a few days ago with a celestis dampning, 2 ceptors webbing and moving in an out of his lock range, and 2 stabbers doing damage.
It was a crappy nanophoon, but the same concept works for any nanophoon as long as your ceptors also fit speed mods.
Sniggwaffe is recruiting |
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE FREGE Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.17 10:25:00 -
[351]
Originally by: Marcus Quo Edited by: Marcus Quo on 17/01/2007 09:38:43 First off, let me say I fly a Nanodomi and love it. Between rigs and implants, I can go 6km/s.
The problem isn't that I can take on anything I want solo. If I spent as much money on faction tanking gear for a Domi, I could still solo any BS easy, possibly two.
The problem is the fact that I can engage a small fleet without risk of losing my ship, and get kills if I do it right. I've attacked two Ravens, an Abaddon, and two drakes, all of which were in a belt ratting TOGEATHER. I got out just barely into armor with a drake killmail. Someone please tell me this isn't broken.
Now, I know someone will just say "lawl lrn 2 counter." You shouldn't NEED a recon ship in every single gang to avoid getting killed by a nanoship. People fit basic counters into most fleets. Eve is built that way. You can tackle without an interceptor, you can fit T2 weapons without a HAC, etc. But you CAN'T web a good nano ship without a Min Recon. Don't tell me intys are the answer, I can outrun an average inty pilot, or let them catch up to me, nos their cap and pop them before they get a chance to do anything.
Basically, no amount of cash should turn a 10v1 PvP situation into a victory for the single pilot unless you're in something slow and vulnerable, like a cap ship. Nanoships can disengage at will, so they're never really at risk when PvPing.
no this IS NOT BROKEN! This is hit an run tactics! Sicne the HP boost form teh past and recent. that is the only way to do hit and run. The only thing wrong here is taht Hit and run shoudl be a minmatar tactics, but gallente can do it better!
The ONLY thing that interest me on PVP is hit and run. get in attack the weakest target kill it and run away...
If brute force doesn't solve your problem.. then you are not using enough!! |
Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.01.17 10:40:00 -
[352]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon no this IS NOT BROKEN! This is hit an run tactics! Sicne the HP boost form teh past and recent. that is the only way to do hit and run. The only thing wrong here is taht Hit and run shoudl be a minmatar tactics, but gallente can do it better!
Limiting a too strong setup on one race does not make it less overpowered.
Neither does a racial speciality excuse something being too strong. Take for example amarr - less flexibility but very good gank & tank. Which gave us the old gankgeddon. Which basically made all other DPS BS obsolete. As result it got nerfed - or betterm pulses got nerfed and the stacking penality got increased - and now it's while still strong by far not overpowering.
And, as a sidenote, minnie ships can do hit & run tactics still better than gallente ships. A typhoon is faster than a domi with the same setup.
Also, hit & run tactics do not involve attacking the main force, getting kills and retreating. It's going after supply, lone stragglers, getting a kill and retreating before the main force arrives. You do not see guerillias attacking an army unless they intend it to be a suicide attack.
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Ryysa
North Face Force
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Posted - 2007.01.17 10:58:00 -
[353]
Originally by: Plague Black There is no need to nerf nanos. Nanoships can't beat anything of the same size as them (unless its a ceptor, which is another class of combat). Lets take nanophoon for example, or nanodomi.
You couldn't be more wrong.
First of all, you can *****any number of ravens, be it 5 or 6 ravens, it's just a matter of time.
Same applies to any number of BS with longrange setup etc. And megathron can't really hit you that well either.
But yeah, any AC Tempest, Pulse geddon or Battlecruiser/Cruiser with midrange guns will put you into a world of pain.
You're wrong about having to run from the same type of ship though, in majority of the cases you can handle 2 of the same type of ship.
All about target jamming & The Logoffski guide |
Christopher Multsanti
Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed
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Posted - 2007.01.17 11:19:00 -
[354]
What a great thread this is.
I fly I nanophoon because it's fun. More fun than my Vaga. Yes I can solo in it, but it is still vunerable to gate camps, you need some skill to fly it, you have no tank, you generally have no back up so you can be fighting 5 or 6 people by the time back up arrives to help their friend as it takes a long time to kill somthing in a Nanophoon.
It isn't just Nano's that you want to look at if you say omg look at him we can never catch him, the real problem is the combination of Faction MWD, Snakes, Speed Rigs and Nano's and that goes for all ships not just BS, I see Crows flying at 26 k a second, Vaga's flying at 15 K a second and the crow can only fit 3 nano's so which module or item is overpwered here?
It's great being Amarr that flys Minmintar aint it?
EVIL SYNNs > Bob are the best, we have to pay them to use the plexs...
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE FREGE Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.17 12:22:00 -
[355]
Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: Kagura Nikon no this IS NOT BROKEN! This is hit an run tactics! Sicne the HP boost form teh past and recent. that is the only way to do hit and run. The only thing wrong here is taht Hit and run shoudl be a minmatar tactics, but gallente can do it better!
Limiting a too strong setup on one race does not make it less overpowered.
Neither does a racial speciality excuse something being too strong. Take for example amarr - less flexibility but very good gank & tank. Which gave us the old gankgeddon. Which basically made all other DPS BS obsolete. As result it got nerfed - or betterm pulses got nerfed and the stacking penality got increased - and now it's while still strong by far not overpowering.
And, as a sidenote, minnie ships can do hit & run tactics still better than gallente ships. A typhoon is faster than a domi with the same setup.
Also, hit & run tactics do not involve attacking the main force, getting kills and retreating. It's going after supply, lone stragglers, getting a kill and retreating before the main force arrives. You do not see guerillias attacking an army unless they intend it to be a suicide attack.
If brute force doesn't solve your problem.. then you are not using enough!! |
Iratus Caelestis
KIA Corp
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Posted - 2007.01.17 13:13:00 -
[356]
Just give me back dual mwd and oversized afterburners and I won't care a bit. :)
And ya you shouldn't be able to turn as well, lateral thrusters aren't designed to turn you around from speed :)
I think it needs to be fixed, however I just fly them in the mean time because I have to, its the only way to compete atm but for people that haven't got the skills point luxury that a lot of older players have the FOTM systems are a bit unfair, you know there will be a lot of people that train for speed just in time for it to get nerfed.
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Kael Zeratul
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Posted - 2007.01.17 13:28:00 -
[357]
Originally by: Leon 026 You know there's something horribly messed up when a battleship is flying faster than an interceptor.
It appears you are doing something horribly wrong. Nano is fine L2P
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Sherpondeldey
Minmatar SolaR KillerS
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Posted - 2007.01.17 13:52:00 -
[358]
well nano-ships are pretty fine. It is a speed tank. Reall different aproach. You spend your cap not for armor repping nor shield boosting but going really fast. I am sure that it is pretty balanced. That is the nosferatu that makes nanoships so powerfull. The main weapon of nanoboat are drones. But they are hardly controlable when its master is orbiting at 18-25km from them. Just kill his drones and leave him with no weapon.
nanophoon is an exception - it has 4 torpedo launchers..
PS: Did the prices of matari recon ships start to rise? :)
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.01.17 15:03:00 -
[359]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon Hit and run is attacking the weakest point on the main combat force and withdraw before you can be counter engaged effectively. The best example was the Luftwaffe tactics during ww2, where their faster planes would dive upon allied planes hit them hard and withdraw immediatelly, since they were no match in continuous low level combat.
We want Hit and Run, not guerrilha tactics, thjat do not require speed, but stealthness.
You said it yourself - "the weakest point". You do not saw such tactics used against an concentrated enemy force as it is possible with speedsetups.
Basically, the problem is that the hit & run tactics in eve are too effective atm. The air combat example is actually good to show this. In order to utilize their hit & run tactics the german fighters needed an height advantage, used this to makee a strafing run and then disengaged. If it would be like in eve they would meet at even height and then fly circles around the other planes.
A nanoship vs normal ships combat is more like fighters vs bombers, exept that the "bombers" are fighters, too.
If nanoBS would not have inty-like agility and could only make strafing runs because orbiting at high speed isn't possible you wouldn't see nearly as many complaints about them.
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Raste
Shinra Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2007.01.17 15:17:00 -
[360]
Edited by: Raste on 17/01/2007 15:14:14
Originally by: Plymer Ization I was just reading the forums, like I do every day, and I came across the Nano-Myrm thread. It makes me wonder, what has caused this massive Nano/I-stab trend where every ship that can fit lots of Nos and a MWD suddenly becomes [fan fiction]
Its almost as though there was some huge change to I-Stabs in the Revelations patch.
Reading your post, I'd suggest that play more, forum less.
===This is a sig=== "no matter where you are or what you're doing, you know that down in the southeast, LV and RA are trying to stab each other in the face." -- Cadiz ==============
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