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elitatwo
Eve Minions The-Company
927
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Posted - 2015.12.01 02:11:03 -
[31] - Quote
None of you ever donated any isk for my free of charge education
Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike.
We will teach you everything you need and want to know.
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Iain Cariaba
2097
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Posted - 2015.12.01 02:38:34 -
[32] - Quote
Cearain wrote:I am asking that ccp consider implementing a clear rule on rmt. What you're complaining about is not RMT. If they were charging real money for ingame services, say charging $100 for a carrier to be built and delivered in game, that is Real Money Trading, and already has rules on it.
Paying people ISK in game for things out of game but related to the game, like web hosting, comms, forum maintainece, writing news articles, is not RMT.
Paying people ISK in game for things out of game and not related to the game, like the earlier example of selling a computer for ISK, is technically against the already existing rules. However, if the perpetrators are smart, and never openky discuss the transaction in game, then it is impossible for CCP to prove, and therefore impossible to punish.
So, that being said, there's nothing of any substance to the OP. All I'm reading in this thread is OP going grrr goons.
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
I couldn't have said it better.
Hello, Mr Carebear. Would you like some cheese with that whine?
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
15303
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Posted - 2015.12.01 03:29:23 -
[33] - Quote
This got weirder the more of it I read.
What exactly is the point here? Some vague Grr Goons, it seems?
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Cearain
Plus 10 NV Cede Nullis
1440
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Posted - 2015.12.01 03:35:09 -
[34] - Quote
Iain Cariaba wrote:Cearain wrote:I am asking that ccp consider implementing a clear rule on rmt. What you're complaining about is not RMT. If they were charging real money for ingame services, say charging $100 for a carrier to be built and delivered in game, that is Real Money Trading, and already has rules on it. Paying people ISK in game for things out of game but related to the game, like web hosting, comms, forum maintainece, writing news articles, is not RMT. Paying people ISK in game for things out of game and not related to the game, like the earlier example of selling a computer for ISK, is technically against the already existing rules. However, if the perpetrators are smart, and never openky discuss the transaction in game, then it is impossible for CCP to prove, and therefore impossible to punish. So, that being said, there's nothing of any substance to the OP. All I'm reading in this thread is OP going grrr goons.
Many of the points you raise were already addressed, but I guess you can just read grrr goons.
What webites are "eve related" is getting stretched. If I post an article talking about eve can I then pay isk to have an entirely new website that covers all sorts of things created maintained and optimized?
These costs can be a very large amount of money for companies. The times have changed and this is now a critical part of many many businesses.
I think that is going to be impossible to draw a "related to eve" line unless you just say it has to be exclusively about eve.
But again the point of this rule is to target the intent. The intent is that people shouldn't be getting real money gains from ingame items such as isk. So making a clear rule that corporations should be able to pay their costs with isk addresses that point. It allows the hobbyist who might want to pay an ingame friend to help them set up a site to still pay with isk.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
15303
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Posted - 2015.12.01 03:45:36 -
[35] - Quote
Cearain wrote: Read the title.
It's not clear. Specifically, it's not clear as to what purpose this serves, what problem it's intended to solve, and how it would actually work.
And when asked about that, the first word out of your lips was "Mittani", so yes I think it's some vague Grr Goons bullshit.
If you don't want your message misunderstood, then you might want to ensure that it actually makes a little bit of sense.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Cearain
Plus 10 NV Cede Nullis
1440
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Posted - 2015.12.01 04:00:54 -
[36] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Cearain wrote: Read the title.
It's not clear. Specifically, it's not clear as to what purpose this serves, "
Same purpose as the other rmt rules. Makes it so people are not cashing out their isk to get real life goods and services.
Kaarous Aldurald wrote: "what problem it's intended to solve,"
Same problems they intend to solve with all of their rmt rules.
Kaarous Aldurald wrote: "and how it would actually work."
Simple a real life corporation can't pay for their costs with isk.
Kaarous Aldurald wrote: "And when asked about that, the first word out of your lips was "Mittani", so yes I think it's some vague Grr Goons bullshit.
If you don't want your message misunderstood, then you might want to ensure that it actually makes a little bit of sense.
The first person who posted said they were not aware that corporations were in fact paying people with isk. So I pointed out that it appears tmc is a corporation. I suppose you didn't actually read that since you can just see grr goons.
And I don't want my message misunderstood. I but I hope it still makes sense.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Iain Cariaba
2098
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Posted - 2015.12.01 09:03:59 -
[37] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Same purpose as the other rmt rules. Makes it so people are not cashing out their isk to get real life goods and services. Why is this a problem.
Cearain wrote:Same problems they intend to solve with all of their rmt rules. You lack the basic understanding of why the RMT rules were put in place. Those rules were put in place because people were paying real money for isk from isk sellers, most of which are scams. This led to people getting ripped off and complainjng to CCP because they fell for a scam. RMT rules were implemented so that such a purchase was a bannable offense, thus the player has been warned.
Cearain wrote:Simple a real life corporation can't pay for their costs with isk. Again, if a company is willing to accept an artificial currency, one even more artificial than the US dollar, for services rendered, why is this a problem? I find it quite unlikely that any individual or corporation is going to be able to spend isk on anything not EvE related. It's not like any grocery store, landlord, utility company, or like service in the real world will accept an in-game currency as a form of payment. Additionally, if a player writes an article for TMC or EN24, what problem does it cause if the operators of those sites toss some isk at the writer for their effort?
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
I couldn't have said it better.
Hello, Mr Carebear. Would you like some cheese with that whine?
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Tabyll Altol
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
137
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Posted - 2015.12.01 09:12:49 -
[38] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Bobb Bobbington wrote:Real life corporations paying stuff with isk? Is that even a thing? I am not sure. People were talking about shareholders of Mittani media. This would suggest the TMC is a corporation. But I am not sure if the sources are accurate. Also I am not sure if other media sites are run by a corporation. I believe mittani media pays it's writers with isk. Whether they pay for any other services such as web related services I do not know. Whether they are or are not incorporated is not really important, as this rule is not aimed at anyone. I think ccp should make it clear that real life corporations should not pay their costs with isk. That seems the most sensible way. If they do not do that then I would want to know when a corporation can pay for services with isk and when they can't. That will be much harder to sort out.
Even if this is so, you would ban every other service too like:
Evidence 1 No 2 And 3
And don-¦t we forget --> One more
The it is stated that the writer will get ISK in reward of articles.
But what-¦s the problem with this ? Plese explain it.
-1 |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2743
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Posted - 2015.12.01 09:19:21 -
[39] - Quote
I think corporations should be allowed to pay for services in ISK (InterStellar Kredits), provided they are EVE-related services and there is no transforming of ISK pay into real money pay (such as Icelandic Krona). It's that second part that matters most. I don't see a problem with people earning ISK from performing work outside of EVE. As long as they aren't able to pay their real life expenses with it, as long as that pay stays in the game, there is no problem. Everything past that which becomes an effort to change the landscape of EVE through outside means falls under the category of the metagame.
elitatwo wrote:None of you ever donated any isk for my free of charge education Well, we pay for what we get.
EVE Central Chruker EVE University EVEBoards EVE-Kill Battleclinic EVE Fitting Tool Python Fitting Assistant EVE-Search
How many more can you think of?
Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom
Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm
The Succubus looks meaner
But the Revenant cleaner
Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm
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Lugh Crow-Slave
1316
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Posted - 2015.12.01 10:05:56 -
[40] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:Cearain wrote:I am not sure. So you are proposing a solution to a problem that you are not even sure exists?!? Talk about a waste of time.
My thought exactly
But I would like to add
Why? Who is hurt by this?
Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3? Corp Stasis
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Lugh Crow-Slave
1316
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Posted - 2015.12.01 10:15:12 -
[41] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:I think corporations should be allowed to pay for services in ISK (InterStellar Kredits), provided they are EVE-related services and there is no transforming of ISK pay into real money pay (such as Icelandic Krona). It's that second part that matters most. I don't see a problem with people earning ISK from performing work outside of EVE. As long as they aren't able to pay their real life expenses with it, as long as that pay stays in the game, there is no problem. Everything past that which becomes an effort to change the landscape of EVE through outside means falls under the category of the metagame.
So then you think in the case of the mittani it should be considered as rmt? They do make real money off the services they pay for in isk with add revenue
And if this is okay then where is the line drawn?
I stand on the side that there is nothing wrong with this as no in game item or currency is being purchased with real money
And as such it does not fall under rmt even if someone is profiting of this service. I also do not feel the definition of rmt should be expanded to include this as the main reason rmt is against the EULA is do to the damage or can cause to a games economy and the murky legal issues surrounding rmt in some countries. Neither of those issues are caused by this practice
So long as all parties agree to the teams and type of payment I see no issue.
Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3? Corp Stasis
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2743
|
Posted - 2015.12.01 13:01:09 -
[42] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:So then you think in the case of the mittani it should be considered as rmt? They do make real money off the services they pay for in isk with add revenue I don't know what the allegations are, and I am having trouble finding them. If it's anything like this chart shows, then not only do I not see the problem, but I don't even see how it resembles RMT. The little cycle they show has "ad revenue" being transferred from TMC to The Mittani, as if to suggest that: 1.) the ad revenue is part of the cycle and 2.) The Mittani is a third party separate from TMC
But even still, there is a gap in the chain. Where it shows "content" moving from player to TMC, there is no explanation as to what this content contains but I think we all know it's juicy stories. It attempts to link it such that the "content" is seen as some sort of transferable good or service when in fact it isn't even traded so much as it is collected by TMC researchers.
Sure, if you want to draw a deliberately disingenuous graph, you can pretend to explain anything as being whatever you want it to be. But ultimately what I see here is reporters reporting on EVE and not performing any RMT within it, while on the sidelines and legally disconnected from it all, they are collecting real money as advertisement revenue from their web hosting which they are paying for.
But maybe that's not the scandal I'm hearing people talk about. I don't know how to research this stuff anymore because all I find are an endless stream of allegations with no substance to explain what people are talking about.
Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom
Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm
The Succubus looks meaner
But the Revenant cleaner
Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm
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Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
1958
|
Posted - 2015.12.01 14:50:17 -
[43] - Quote
are you saying that people cant pay isk for out of game services?
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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Cearain
Plus 10 NV Cede Nullis
1440
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Posted - 2015.12.01 15:27:43 -
[44] - Quote
Iain Cariaba wrote:Cearain wrote:Same purpose as the other rmt rules. Makes it so people are not cashing out their isk to get real life goods and services. Why is this a problem. Cearain wrote:Same problems they intend to solve with all of their rmt rules. You lack the basic understanding of why the RMT rules were put in place. Those rules were put in place because people were paying real money for isk from isk sellers, most of which are scams. This led to people getting ripped off and complainjng to CCP because they fell for a scam. RMT rules were implemented so that such a purchase was a bannable offense, thus the player has been warned.
That is not the only reason for rmt rules. But I see your first question questions the basis for having rmt rules at all.
Of course to the extent ccp is concerned with people getting scammed that is even more reason to prevent for profit corporations from trading in isk. As was pointed out earlier in the thread, by doing business through a corporation people can escape legal liability for not fulfilling their end of the bargain. So this is just another reason not to have corporations in the isk trading business.
Cearain wrote:Simple a real life corporation can't pay for their costs with isk. Again, if a company is willing to accept an artificial currency, one even more artificial than the US dollar, for services rendered, why is this a problem? I find it quite unlikely that any individual or corporation is going to be able to spend isk on anything not EvE related. It's not like any grocery store, landlord, utility company, or like service in the real world will accept an in-game currency as a form of payment. Additionally, if a player writes an article for TMC or EN24, what problem does it cause if the operators of those sites toss some isk at the writer for their effort?[/quote]
I think if we are talking about a hobby it is no big deal. But if we are talking about a for profit business that incorporated then it takes on a different tone.
There are allot of eve players who might do web design and set up. The back end coding for this has little to do with eve. The same is true for optimizing websites. These designs can cost businesses quite a bit of money. My wife is in the business and I know from offers I received with my own business how much people can charge for these services. I also know these services are very important for businesses. And when 1.2 trillion isk = about $15,000 the values can be sizable.
I don't think people who do not own a business realize the costs. CCP might want to consider the cost in manhours of their own websites design and upkeep to get an idea of how much this can cost. That can be allot of isk trading for real goods and services.
Now if the site is exclusively about eve that does take some of the edge off. But I think unless you say the site must exclusively be about eve then you are looking at a hopelessly blurry line.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Plus 10 NV Cede Nullis
1440
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Posted - 2015.12.01 15:28:42 -
[45] - Quote
I see allot of people questioning what is the harm in rmt.
Here is a dev blog that talks about some of their concerns: http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/the-way-of-the-plex/
CCP gave some explanations including they don't want increased pressure to hack accounts or steal credit cards (of course if people can steal credit cards they don't really need to involve anything in game). They also mentioned that it would give an incentive to macroing. But they also make it clear that the isk and all the other ingame items are ccp's and they are the only ones who should make real money profits from this. That is simply part of their business model. And it is a valid basis for the war on rmt.
Of course all of these reasons apply to for profit corporations that would use isk to pay their real life expenses. So it is perfectly natural to ask why is it that ccp lets some of these for profit corporations pay their real costs of business in isk, but it gets all bent out of shape if a player wants to sell some of his or her isk for money. If ccp wants to have a principled policy then it should not allow for profit corporations to pay their real costs with isk.
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
And as such it does not fall under rmt even if someone is profiting of this service. I also do not feel the definition of rmt should be expanded to include this as the main reason rmt is against the EULA is do to the damage or can cause to a games economy and the murky legal issues surrounding rmt in some countries. Neither of those issues are caused by this practice
So long as all parties agree to the teams and type of payment I see no issue.
Well if that is the rule then all rmt would be fine.
But of course for profit corporations promising to pay for their business costs in isk runs into *all* the problems you mention and all the problems ccp cited as reasons to prevent rmt.
Reaver Glitterstim wrote: But maybe that's not the scandal I'm hearing people talk about. I don't know how to research this stuff anymore because all I find are an endless stream of allegations with no substance to explain what people are talking about.
No one is talking about any GÇ£scandal.GÇ¥ Sorry to disappoint. The question is whether rl for profit corporations should be able to pay for their real life costs such as web design and development and other costs with isk. I think this goes against all the reasons we have rmt rules to begin with and so it should be considered rmt. That is not to say that I think CCP should all of a sudden start banning accounts or anything like that. I think they should clarify their policy and give corporations (and the players who provide isk to them to pay for their corporate expenses) time to adjust.
Lan Wang wrote:are you saying that people cant pay isk for out of game services?
I am saying ccp should clarify/amend the rules so that for profit corporations can not pay isk for out of game services. I am not saying the rules for individual players should change.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
1960
|
Posted - 2015.12.01 15:37:31 -
[46] - Quote
sorry i may have missed this but where are you getting this "for profit corporations"? how do you know things are done for pure profit?
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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Cearain
Plus 10 NV Cede Nullis
1440
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Posted - 2015.12.01 15:44:37 -
[47] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:sorry i may have missed this but where are you getting this "for profit corporations"? how do you know things are done for pure profit?
I am not sure if this applies outside of the US. But in the US corporations can be for profit or "not for profit." Most corporations are for profit.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cidanel Afuran
Static-Noise Upholders
447
|
Posted - 2015.12.01 15:58:36 -
[48] - Quote
I am not paranoid. I am an adult who lives in the real world. My company is small (25 people) and we have been sued multiple times on bogus charges. It isn't paranoid to set up a legal structure that protects you from losing your house, it's common sense to any adult.
Yes, every EVE blogger should absolutely set up an LLC and do business as that legal entity. Work a few years in the real world and it will be obvious why they should. $300 and an hour of your time is a small price to pay to guarentee you won't lose your house and retirement savings due to a bogus lawsuit.
And yet again, a pure profit motive really only applies to a C-Corp. No EVE related entity (including CCP) is a C-Corp. You do know there are different types of corporations, right? |
Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
1961
|
Posted - 2015.12.01 16:02:04 -
[49] - Quote
if you stop this sort of thing then you kinda stop ccp's free advertising model
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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Cearain
Plus 10 NV Cede Nullis
1440
|
Posted - 2015.12.01 16:59:50 -
[50] - Quote
Cidanel Afuran wrote:I am not paranoid. I am an adult who lives in the real world. My company is small (25 people) and we have been sued multiple times on bogus charges. It isn't paranoid to set up a legal structure that protects you from losing your house, it's common sense to any adult. Yes, every EVE blogger should absolutely set up an LLC and do business as that legal entity. Work a few years in the real world and it will be obvious why they should. $300 and an hour of your time is a small price to pay to guarentee you won't lose your house and retirement savings due to a bogus lawsuit. And yet again, a pure profit motive really only applies to a C-Corp. No EVE related entity (including CCP) is a C-Corp. You do know there are different types of corporations, right?
Incorporating does not protect you from bogus liability. It primarily protects you if the claims are proven in court and you are deemed to be actually liable. Look at the times you were sued. Incorporating saved you nothing. I know this because you refereed to your company in the present tense. If one of those lawsuits were not bogus - like for example it was proven you said you would do something you didn't do then those you wronged would only be able to get your corporate assets. But since you are still in business you have enough corporate assets to cover your liabilities and the same would be true if you ran the business as a sole proprietor or a partnership.
I have worked in the real world and I know plenty about litigation, liability, and the protections corporations can provide those who would like to scam people. It is just one more reason ccp should limit corporations engaging in isk trading.
It is not the case that spending $300 will guarantee you will not lose your house and retirement due to a bogus lawsuit. You need to actually run the company like a seperate entity. And again if the lawsuit is not proven then you will likely not benefit at all from your $300 spent and the time you took to maintain the seperate corporate identity. Its only if the lawsuit is valid and proven that the the corporate shield will help you. Finally when it comes to potential liability surrounding websites it is not the case that only the entity registering the website can be liable.
Lan Wang wrote:if you stop this sort of thing then you kinda stop ccp's free advertising model
Not entirely. Just for those who use a corporation to pay for services in isk. The vast majority of blogs would not be effected and those that were effected could decide whether they wanted to continue to run their site as a for profit corporation or not. I imagine many would just decide to drop the corporation out of the equation. But yes some might choose that if they can't spend their isk through the corporation, and it would just have to be a hobby, then they would stop. Other people who are not out for real money would fill in some of the gaps.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cidanel Afuran
Static-Noise Upholders
447
|
Posted - 2015.12.01 17:02:40 -
[51] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Incorporating does not protect you from bogus liability. It primarily protects you if the claims are proven in court and you are deemed to be actually liable. Look at the times you were sued. Incorporating saved you nothing. I know this because you refereed to your company in the present tense. If one of those lawsuits were not bogus - like for example it was proven you said you would do something you didn't do then those you wronged would only be able to get your corporate assets. But since you are still in business you have enough corporate assets to cover your liabilities and the same would be true if you ran the business as a sole proprietor or a partnership.
I have worked in the real world and I know plenty about litigation, liability, and the protections corporations can provide those who would like to scam people. It is just one more reason ccp should limit corporations engaging in isk trading.
It is not the case that spending $300 will guarantee you will not lose your house and retirement due to a bogus lawsuit. You need to actually run the company like a seperate entity. And again if the lawsuit is not proven then you will likely not benefit at all from your $300 spent and the time you took to maintain the seperate corporate identity. Its only if the lawsuit is valid and proven that the the corporate shield will help you. Finally when it comes to potential liability surrounding websites it is not the case that only the entity registering the website can be liable.
You don't seem to have any clue what you are talking about. In a lawsuit against a business run as an LLC, personal assets cannot be targeted. |
Cearain
Plus 10 NV Cede Nullis
1440
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Posted - 2015.12.01 17:14:52 -
[52] - Quote
Cidanel Afuran wrote:Cearain wrote:Incorporating does not protect you from bogus liability. It primarily protects you if the claims are proven in court and you are deemed to be actually liable. Look at the times you were sued. Incorporating saved you nothing. I know this because you refereed to your company in the present tense. If one of those lawsuits were not bogus - like for example it was proven you said you would do something you didn't do then those you wronged would only be able to get your corporate assets. But since you are still in business you have enough corporate assets to cover your liabilities and the same would be true if you ran the business as a sole proprietor or a partnership.
I have worked in the real world and I know plenty about litigation, liability, and the protections corporations can provide those who would like to scam people. It is just one more reason ccp should limit corporations engaging in isk trading.
It is not the case that spending $300 will guarantee you will not lose your house and retirement due to a bogus lawsuit. You need to actually run the company like a seperate entity. And again if the lawsuit is not proven then you will likely not benefit at all from your $300 spent and the time you took to maintain the seperate corporate identity. Its only if the lawsuit is valid and proven that the the corporate shield will help you. Finally when it comes to potential liability surrounding websites it is not the case that only the entity registering the website can be liable. You don't seem to have any clue what you are talking about. In a lawsuit against a business run as an LLC, personal assets cannot be targeted.
1) Look up piercing the corporate veil. You should do this before you keep telling everyone that they just have to pay $300 and then they never have to worry about personal assets being targeted. The laws can vary from state to state and I am not sure if there is a similar provision in other countries.
2) Its not the case that litigation about a website can only ever be brought against the company that owns the website. For example if you slander someone on a website you can be personally liable even if you have a company own the website.
3) The rest of my points stand as far as what protections a corporation provides. Against bogus lawsuits it really provides nothing. Against legitimate lawsuits it provides protection. Again to the extent ccp prevents rmt in order to protect players from scams it makes sense that they would prevent corporations from paying their costs in isk.
I do know what I am talking about, and you would do well to take your time and actually try to understand what I am saying.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cidanel Afuran
Static-Noise Upholders
447
|
Posted - 2015.12.01 17:21:19 -
[53] - Quote
Cearain wrote:1) Look up piercing the corporate veil. You should do this before you keep telling everyone that they just have to pay $300 and then they never have to worry about personal assets being targeted. The laws can vary from state to state and I am not sure if there is a similar provision in other countries.
2) Its not the case that litigation about a website can only ever be brought against the company that owns the website. For example if you slander someone on a website you can be personally liable even if you have a company own the website.
3) The rest of my points stand as far as what protections a corporation provides. Against bogus lawsuits it really provides nothing. Against legitimate lawsuits it provides protection. Again to the extent ccp prevents rmt in order to protect players from scams it makes sense that they would prevent corporations from paying their costs in isk.
I do know what I am talking about, and you would do well to take your time and actually try to understand what I am saying.
...running your business correctly kinda goes without saying. And yet again, a bogus lawsuit against a GP can result in personal assets being targeted, not so with an LLC. Stop doing 10 second google searches for answers to things you apparently have never dealt with IRL.
I do understand what you're saying, I simply disagree. Sites like TMC are in no way RMT. Just because someone doesn't agree with what you are trying to say doesn't mean they don't understand it. |
Cearain
Plus 10 NV Cede Nullis
1440
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Posted - 2015.12.01 18:15:34 -
[54] - Quote
Cidanel Afuran wrote:Cearain wrote:1) Look up piercing the corporate veil. You should do this before you keep telling everyone that they just have to pay $300 and then they never have to worry about personal assets being targeted. The laws can vary from state to state and I am not sure if there is a similar provision in other countries.
2) Its not the case that litigation about a website can only ever be brought against the company that owns the website. For example if you slander someone on a website you can be personally liable even if you have a company own the website.
3) The rest of my points stand as far as what protections a corporation provides. Against bogus lawsuits it really provides nothing. Against legitimate lawsuits it provides protection. Again to the extent ccp prevents rmt in order to protect players from scams it makes sense that they would prevent corporations from paying their costs in isk.
I do know what I am talking about, and you would do well to take your time and actually try to understand what I am saying. ...running your business correctly kinda goes without saying. And yet again, a bogus lawsuit against a GP can result in personal assets being targeted, not so with an LLC. Stop doing 10 second google searches for answers to things you apparently have never dealt with IRL.
You may have learned about piercing the corporate veil from a ten second google search but I learned it in law school and in doing legal research required to litigate cases where it was an issue.
Are you just going to fold up your corp due to a bogus lawsuit? If not then it won't provide you any protection from them. The primary advantage of the corporate protection is if you run into a legitimate lawsuit that could be proven against you in court.
Cidanel Afuran wrote: I do understand what you're saying, I simply disagree. Sites like TMC are in no way RMT. Just because someone doesn't agree with what you are trying to say doesn't mean they don't understand it.
I don't think you do understand what I am saying. Because I am not saying sites like tmc are rmt. I am proposing that ccp draw a distinction between corporations and hobbyists when it comes to whether they can use isk to obtain goods and services. Lines have been blurred by websites that have left allot of people wondering whether ccp allows people to do an end around their rmt policies and clearly make real money from in-game items. They have good reason to wonder because it can very well happen unless ccp clarifies some things. Its better to do this beforehand and in the open rather than after the fact where no one really knows the scoop.
Cidanel Afuran wrote: You also completely missed my point. You started this by claiming that if sites like TMC were corporations, they have to have a rela life profit motive to benefit shareholders. That is 100% not true. Hell, TMC is an LLC, which doesn't even HAVE shareholders. My point was there are many, many reasons to incorporate beyond a pure profit motive. A corporation and a publicly traded C-Corp are very, very different things.
Whether the corporation has shareholders versus members is of little importance in this debate. You are quibbling over irrelevant minutia. I will not pursue the red herring.
A privately held corporation and a publicly held corporation are different. But I am not sure why that is relevant. Not all c-corps are publicly traded and c-corps are not really all that different from s-corps or llcs. C corps have certain tax issues they need to deal with so they are not double taxed and usually smaller businesses will opt for an s-corp or an llc for that reason, but again the us tax schemes seem irrelevant to our concerns.
I am not saying that the only reason to incorporate is to increase profits. It likely will not increase your profits just by incorporating. But I am saying the purpose of a for profit corporation is to make a profit. A real money profit. So what is the point of allowing these entities to trade in isk? If we look at the reasons ccp bans rmt they clearly fit as an entity that should not be isk trading. None of the reasoning behind the exceptions seems to apply to corporations.
I don't mind if people disagree and think real life corporations should be able to pay for their real life costs through isk. But allowing that cuts against all the reasons ccp offered as to why players shouldn't be able to rmt.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cidanel Afuran
Static-Noise Upholders
447
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Posted - 2015.12.01 18:34:28 -
[55] - Quote
You've obviously never been involved in a lawsuit if that is how you think. You seem to be arguing out of a textbook, not out of any sort of actual experience.
I understand what you're saying 100%. You fail to realize that you can't have black and white lines. There are grey areas for a reason. Not every site benefits the game, and not everything created by a hobbyist benefits CCP in the form of advertising/marketing. We need grey areas.
The primary purpose of a corporation is very very often not to maximize profits. Saying that is fairly ignorant. |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2744
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Posted - 2015.12.01 19:34:38 -
[56] - Quote
Can somebody please explain what TMC is doing that is under debate? I still don't know what we're talking about, and it isn't for lack of research.
Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom
Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm
The Succubus looks meaner
But the Revenant cleaner
Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm
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Cearain
Plus 10 NV Cede Nullis
1442
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Posted - 2015.12.01 19:46:49 -
[57] - Quote
Cidanel Afuran wrote:You've obviously never been involved in a lawsuit if that is how you think. You seem to be arguing out of a textbook, not out of any sort of actual experience. Even a bogus lawsuit can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars, and tie up years of time. Having the correct legal structure protects your personal assets from those costs.
Lawsuits have been my stock and trade for almost 20 years. You keep failing to understand my point on this. A bogus lawsuit is unlikely to cause you to fold up your corporation. Therefore having a corporation is unlikely to be any protection against costs of litigating a bogus lawsuit. How much less time did you spend fighting your bogus lawsuits because you had a corporation? How much less money did you spend fighting them because you had a corporation?
You see it is primarily if you have a real legitimate problem that the corporation will protect you. The corporate protection comes in when your corp can't pay its proven liabilities. Not when it just needs to fight off unproven allegations.
Cidanel Afuran wrote: You fail to realize that you can't have black and white lines. There are grey areas for a reason. Not every site benefits the game, and not everything created by a hobbyist benefits CCP in the form of advertising/marketing. We need grey areas.
I think there will be gray areas on this. I don't think that can be entirely avoided. But there is nothing wrong with some bright line rules when you can have them. And sometimes you can have them.
Cidanel Afuran wrote: The primary purpose of a corporation is very very often not to maximize profits. Saying that is fairly ignorant. If a person is space-rich and is providing a service that benefits the playerbase as well as CCP, why wouldn't you let them pay people in ISK?
The traditional understanding is that the purpose of a corporation is to maximize profits for it's shareholders. People might disagree with that traditional understanding but it is not without a large swath of truth. Discarding that understanding as silly, and ignoring its import is foolish.
Ok we may disagree on whether certain people and their endeavors hurt or help eve and the playerbase. CCP may disagree with both of us. Whether some corporation/entity is helping or hurting eve is about as subjective as it gets. So those who are deemed to be helping the playerbase get to trade in isk but those who are deemed not to be helping the playerbase can't? I'm sorry but this is not a "gray rule" it is favoritism with a bow.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cidanel Afuran
Static-Noise Upholders
447
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Posted - 2015.12.01 20:04:53 -
[58] - Quote
You're flat out refuting the legal benefits limited liability offers an owner. I never said a corporation would fold (you put those words in my mouth), I said your personal assets are more at risk with a GP compared to an LLC.
That's the traditional understanding of the purpose of a publicly traded corporation with shareholders who don't have personal interests aligned. It isn't the traditional understanding of *any* company. Most smaller businesses exist for a purpose, and as long as they make enough cash to cover expenses, maximizing profitability is a byproduct.
Back to your original idea (convo me in game/send me a message if you want to keep talking about lawsuits, we are getting fairly off topic with that particular tangent) There are already rules surrounding RMT. Making more hard line rules ahead of time around what third party services can/cannot use isk would do nothing but limit creativity and emergent gameplay. Deal with the issues on a one-off basis, don't create sweeping rules that could limit content creation more than it helps it. |
Cearain
Plus 10 NV Cede Nullis
1442
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Posted - 2015.12.01 20:05:23 -
[59] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:Can somebody please explain what TMC is doing that is under debate? I still don't know what we're talking about, and it isn't for lack of research.
TMC's actions are not under debate. I make no claim that they did or did not violate any particular rule. But they are a decent case in point. It is a company with a website that is not just eve material. They clearly cover and promote other games and are free to do all sorts of things. Could they pay isk to have that entire website built maintained and optimized? I don't know the answer.
What if an accounting company did a blog on the eve economy one time. Could they then contact an eve player and have a new accounting firm website created and maintained with isk?
Its true, and no secret, that tmc has made many people wonder where the lines of legitimate and illegitimate use of in game items for profit should be drawn. And when we think through some of the endeavors they or other groups might do beyond just providing eve content we can see things are almost certainly going to get even more murky.
I am proposing a rule that I believe sort of puts it's finger on the pulse of the issue. That is ccp shouldn't let for profit companies use isk to pay for their costs.
I argue ccp should treat corporations differently than just players who want to run an amature website or an forum for their in game corp. The purpose of a real life corporation is to make real life profits for their shareholders/members. That purpose is counter to the ideas behind rmt.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Lugh Crow-Slave
1318
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Posted - 2015.12.01 20:32:23 -
[60] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Lan Wang wrote:are you saying that people cant pay isk for out of game services? I am saying ccp should clarify/amend the rules so that for profit corporations can not pay isk for out of game services. I am not saying the rules for individual players should change.
So why should people be able to pay for services they profit from but not corporations? considering at least in the US corporations are legally persons
Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3? Corp Stasis
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