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Matthew Dust
Valklear Legionnaires Minmatar Republic Marines
52
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Posted - 2015.12.08 13:48:28 -
[1] - Quote
For the most part ec-300's are the only one of their kind really used, would like to see ewar ships get a bonus to use these drones like raising the effectiveness of the drone's primary attributes. Thus making TD drones and webbing drones more viable, and specialized to ewar pilots. Please include basic ewar ships, griffin/vigil/bellicose/blackbird/etc....
The webbing drones are a big deal, because TP drones will never be used anyways by anyone ever for any reason ever. (minmatar ewar needs to be re-worked, good job on the fleet issue vigil, it's a viable ship)
anyways I hope you will consider this Fozzie man |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
2882
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Posted - 2015.12.08 15:16:30 -
[2] - Quote
What makes these drones unusable is the stacking penalty that ecm drones don't suffer from.
As has been suggested before, 'gecko-ise' e-war drones.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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RcTamiya
SUPREME MATHEMATICS A Band Apart.
31
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Posted - 2015.12.08 15:28:17 -
[3] - Quote
Sadly removing stacking penalties from drones would be op :/ |
Cristl
262
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Posted - 2015.12.08 16:13:41 -
[4] - Quote
RcTamiya wrote:Sadly removing stacking penalties from drones would be op :/ I disagree. To cause the same speed reduction as 2 unbonused web IIs, you would need *without stacking penalties* over 32 SW-300 lights, or over 7 SW-900 heavies. If those were combat drones (as, say, warrior IIs or Ogre IIs) they would put out 400-500 dps. That's some opportunity cost.
Also, drones can be easily destroyed, especially EWAR drones - they are ultra-flimsy (SW-300 have 25 shield , 50 armour and 60 structure hp).
I'll run some numbers for the other EWAR and combat utility drones and get back.
Besides, it would surely be possible to introduce a different 'light' stacking penalty for some drones or modules to use, if necessary. And no one uses any of these drones except 'Halp! I'm being violenced' ECM drones. They simply suck balls. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2419
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Posted - 2015.12.08 17:05:37 -
[5] - Quote
Cristl wrote:RcTamiya wrote:Sadly removing stacking penalties from drones would be op :/ I disagree. To cause the same speed reduction as 2 unbonused web IIs, you would need *without stacking penalties* over 32 SW-300 lights, or over 7 SW-900 heavies. If those were combat drones (as, say, warrior IIs or Ogre IIs) they would put out 400-500 dps. That's some opportunity cost. Also, drones can be easily destroyed, especially EWAR drones - they are ultra-flimsy (SW-300 have 25 shield , 50 armour and 60 structure hp). I'll run some numbers for the other EWAR and combat utility drones and get back. Besides, it would surely be possible to introduce a different 'light' stacking penalty for some drones or modules to use, if necessary. And no one uses any of these drones except 'Halp! I'm being violenced' ECM drones. They simply suck balls.
Or just make the number turn to a planned effect for a full flight of drones X. CCP could decide for example that a full flight of heavy webbing drone is supposed to web like a full module and have no stacking penalty on the drones so the first one is not like 80x more valuable than the 5th. |
Cristl
262
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Posted - 2015.12.08 19:40:08 -
[6] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Or just make the number turn to a planned effect for a full flight of drones X. CCP could decide for example that a full flight of heavy webbing drone is supposed to web like a full module and have no stacking penalty on the drones so the first one is not like 80x more valuable than the 5th. Could we not try removing stacking penalties from drones on the test server? I have serious doubts there would be major problems to be honest. |
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
379
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Posted - 2015.12.08 22:40:24 -
[7] - Quote
ok, so drones no longer stack - now goons decide their new doctrine is ewar drone domis. fielding saaaay, 5 heavy neut drones each, with a few specialist webbers, and some basic SeDa/ECM/TP/TD support -
the EV-900's have no stacking penalty - situation normal as if they were all fielding 'geddons with a neut or two the specialist webbers field between them 30 SW-900's, which because they have no stacking penalty, reduce any ship to 0m/s the EC-900's work on a probability so are unaffected by stacking penalties (situation normal) the Specialist dampers field about 60 SD-900's between them, becaus of no stacking penalties, they're able to reduce 3 or 4 logi boats down to a 5km lock range with targeting time >= 1min on a cruiser OR they apply the whole lot to a single ship stopping him locking anything beyond 5m the specialist TP's field about 45 TP-900's, able to bloom a frigate to cruiser/BS size, which ofc then gets instapopped, as it's also webbed to standstill the specialist TD's - need I go on?
stacking penalty is what keeps E-war from being over-powered, and technically - ECM is stacking penalised by it's very nature.
I can understand applying a different stacking penalty modifier to drones, so that a flight of heavies becomes a single module, but they DO need to be stacking penalised.
For posting an idea into F&I:
come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it.....
If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
2884
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Posted - 2015.12.09 00:41:20 -
[8] - Quote
They should be stacking penalised, but they should all be larger drones like the gecko.
For anyone who still doesnt get it, make them more powerful but increase their bandwidth and size = decent str from one or two ships but without making them ridiculous en mass.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Varyah
I am Forever of the Stars
18
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Posted - 2015.12.09 13:15:03 -
[9] - Quote
Xe'Cara'eos wrote: [...] and technically - ECM is stacking penalised by it's very nature. [...]
Bullshit! I've already seen that argument pop up on reddit - seems this is a common misconception. If you don't understand the intricacies of probability theory or percentage calculus then please stop repeating that nonsense.
The thing you are presumably calling "stacking penalty" of ECM is nothing unique to ECM: Even if there were no actual and very real stacking penalties that thing is present everywhere in this game - in resistance calculation, damp effect calculation, webs, TP, TD, falloff and optimal calculation, etc. etc. It is usually called 'multiplication of real numbers' and its special case of multiplication of percentages.
Assuming 10% chance to jam, every single ECM no matter how many there are on that target will have its 10% chance to jam. It is exactly the same as damps would do if they wouldn't have the stacking penalty: Assuming 50% damps and NO PENALTIES you targeting range is reduced to 50% for the first damp, to 25% for the second, to 12,5% for the third. If this thing you call 'stacking penalty' didn't exist two damps would reduce the targeting range to 0. |
Cristl
262
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Posted - 2015.12.09 16:29:38 -
[10] - Quote
Xe'Cara'eos wrote:ok, so drones no longer stack - now goons decide their new doctrine is ewar drone domis. fielding saaaay, 5 heavy neut drones each, with a few specialist webbers, and some basic SeDa/ECM/TP/TD support - I'm concerned that you don't understand:
1) How multiple percentage reductions are applied. This was addressed by Vahyar above; you may also wish to research the geometric distribution for the situation with ECMs.
2) How the 'to hit' calculations of Eve work. You imply that with 30 painters targets become somehow super-vulnerable. Not really, their chances of being hit just approach 100% asymptotically as their sig radius increases. (The maximum non-wrecking hit multiplier tends to 1.5 in this case)
3) The concept of opportunity cost. Your 135 EWAR drones means 135 sentries that aren't being fielded. Those sentries could put out over 65k volleys, every 4 seconds. Why damp their logi if you can just blap them? (now receiving reps and receiving damage - they could perhaps use stacking penalties.Quote:the EV-900's have no stacking penalty - situation normal as if they were all fielding 'geddons with a neut or two. The specialist webbers field between them 30 SW-900's, which because they have no stacking penalty, reduce any ship to 0m/s. So we agree that no stacking penalties, such as with EVs, are okay in principle. 30 heavy webbers would indeed pretty much stop any vessel, yes. But they would have to reach their target and survive (SW-900s have a signature larger than a stabber, and less than 1000hp), and I've already pointed out that these represent 30 heavy combat drones that aren't on the fieldQuote:the EC-900's work on a probability so are unaffected by stacking penalties (situation normal) See Varyah's post aboveQuote:the Specialist dampers field about 60 SD-900's between them, becaus of no stacking penalties, they're able to reduce 3 or 4 logi boats down to a 5km lock range with targeting time >= 1min on a cruiser OR they apply the whole lot to a single ship stopping him locking anything beyond 5m Again, 60 heavy drones, 1500 bandwidth, should cause some serious disruptionQuote:the specialist TP's field about 45 TP-900's, able to bloom a frigate to cruiser/BS size, which ofc then gets instapopped, as it's also webbed to standstill Please research target painting, and never suggest to your FC putting 45 painters on something.
I remain unconvinced that there would be a problem if EWAR drones lost stacking penalties, and would like to see it tested in a battle royale on the test server. |
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Cristl
264
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Posted - 2015.12.11 15:30:34 -
[11] - Quote
Up a new forum we go!
Does nobody else feel that the test server could be used to try out gameplay changes as well as technical changes? |
Matthew Dust
Mostly Sober Dead Terrorists
52
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Posted - 2015.12.18 00:34:11 -
[12] - Quote
Xe'Cara'eos wrote:ok, so drones no longer stack - now goons decide their new doctrine is ewar drone domis. fielding saaaay, 5 heavy neut drones each, with a few specialist webbers, and some basic SeDa/ECM/TP/TD support -
the EV-900's have no stacking penalty - situation normal as if they were all fielding 'geddons with a neut or two the specialist webbers field between them 30 SW-900's, which because they have no stacking penalty, reduce any ship to 0m/s the EC-900's work on a probability so are unaffected by stacking penalties (situation normal) the Specialist dampers field about 60 SD-900's between them, becaus of no stacking penalties, they're able to reduce 3 or 4 logi boats down to a 5km lock range with targeting time >= 1min on a cruiser OR they apply the whole lot to a single ship stopping him locking anything beyond 5m the specialist TP's field about 45 TP-900's, able to bloom a frigate to cruiser/BS size, which ofc then gets instapopped, as it's also webbed to standstill the specialist TD's - need I go on?
stacking penalty is what keeps E-war from being over-powered, and technically - ECM is stacking penalised by it's very nature.
I can understand applying a different stacking penalty modifier to drones, so that a flight of heavies becomes a single module, but they DO need to be stacking penalised.
smartbombs, end rant. |
Matthew Dust
Mostly Sober Dead Terrorists
52
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Posted - 2015.12.18 00:36:29 -
[13] - Quote
Cristl wrote:Up a new forum we go!
Does nobody else feel that the test server could be used to try out gameplay changes as well as technical changes?
linky |
Lyra Gerie
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
76
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Posted - 2015.12.18 01:22:59 -
[14] - Quote
So what we're basically looking for here is to have a drone flight mechanic similar to turret grouping. All the drones in a flight would apply their E-war towards a target as though the entire flight is one drone. So if you have 5 drones of one E-war type it adds their values together WITHOUT stacking penalties.
This means that 5 drones will be unstacked in their E-war but 2 flights of 5 drones each will have stacking penalties applied to the other flight.
so if one flight gives a 25% reduction in speed from web drones, a second flight that also does 25% will receive a stacking penalty and only apply say, 16%.
This would reward small gangs or organized groups using E-war drones while preventing fleets from abusing them without stacking penalties. |
Hopelesshobo
Tactical Nuclear Penguin's
512
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Posted - 2015.12.18 02:17:08 -
[15] - Quote
The only thing that they need to do to fix EWAR drones is to make it so the stacking penalties are based around the flights of drones instead of each individual drone.
Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
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Alexis Nightwish
368
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Posted - 2015.12.18 02:32:41 -
[16] - Quote
With any luck, drones will get the same treatment coming to fighters. If a group of drones counts as one unit, the sum of their EWAR would be considered one effect for the purposes of stacking. So a flight of SW-300s would be a 25% web.
EC-X00 drones could be treated like a weapon group where all 5 "fire" their ECM at the same time, but the server makes a calculation for each.
CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge
EVE Online's "I win!" Button
Fixing bombs, not the bombers
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Hopelesshobo
Tactical Nuclear Penguin's
512
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Posted - 2015.12.18 03:08:56 -
[17] - Quote
Alexis Nightwish wrote:With any luck, drones will get the same treatment coming to fighters. If a group of drones counts as one unit, the sum of their EWAR would be considered one effect for the purposes of stacking. So a flight of SW-300s would be a 25% web.
EC-X00 drones could be treated like a weapon group where all 5 "fire" their ECM at the same time, but the server makes a calculation for each.
The other thing it will do is treat each group of drones as one drone, and then as each drone gets killed, the damage output is imply modified. That alone should help improve server performance when there is a mass amount of drones. The problem comes in when you deploy a drone to replace one that got blown up, there would have to be a way to assign that drone you just launched to the blob you already have out and then to combine said groups once that drone gets to the rest of them.
Another issue is what happens when you put a TD on 1 drone in the ball? I guess on the server side they would have to seperate that drone from the group to calculate it's damage separately. I dunno, that's getting a bit too detailed into the dev server stuff to see what can and can't work for real world server performance.
Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
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