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Cipher Jones
148
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Posted - 2011.12.13 17:50:00 -
[1] - Quote
CCP wrote:Grief play What is grief play? Griefing A grief player, or "griefer," is a player who devotes much of his time to making othersGÇÖ lives miserable, in a large part deriving his enjoyment of the game from these activities while he does not profit from it in any way. Grief tactics are the mechanics a griefer will utilize to antagonize other players. At our discretion, players who are found to be consistently maliciously interfering with the game experience for others may receive a warning, temporary suspension or permanent banning of his account.
This should not be confused with standard conflict that might arise between two (or more) players, such as corporation wars. The EVE universe is a harsh universe largely driven by such conflict and notice must be taken of the fact that nonconsensual combat alone is not considered to be grief play per the above definition.
An example of grief play would be the so called "Can baiting" in starter systems. An experienced player drops a cargo container with some items in front of a station in a starter system and waits for a new player to take from it. The new player is flagged and promptly attacked and killed by the owner of the container. Doing the same in starter tutorial complexes is also considered grief play and will not be tolerated.
Its counterproductive to your game, and its costing you a lot of money. You have never enforced this policy yet you retain it, it is very confusing. Is it simply the cost of enforcing it? Or apathy? Or did you just print that to bait people into subbing, with them thinking "EvE can't be as harsh as people say if blatant griefing is against the rules". Or do you plan on enforcing it someday? Just wondering why a company would allow itself to hemorrhage money like that, especially after this summer.
Eagerly waiting your response, also eagerly awaiting griefer replies telling me what a bad poster I am and how what they do is either justified or not griefing.
See what happens when fat neckbeards try to ride little ponies? The ponies die. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
1389
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 17:52:00 -
[2] - Quote
Did you report someone for can-baiting noobs? Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
197
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Posted - 2011.12.13 17:54:00 -
[3] - Quote
I'm pretty sure CCP bans can baiters in noobie systems and doesn't ignore them. |
The Mittani
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2571
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 17:56:00 -
[4] - Quote
oxytopes at 1500, the bad thread index is spiking across the forums, it's a crisis of market democracy~ The Office of the Chairman: A Thread for Constituent Issues |
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
117
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Posted - 2011.12.13 17:57:00 -
[5] - Quote
The Mittani wrote:oxytopes at 1500, the bad thread index is spiking across the forums, it's a crisis of market democracy~
market democracy ??? heh.. |
The Mittani
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2571
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 17:59:00 -
[6] - Quote
yes you found the joke within the joke it was well-hidden indeed, hi5 The Office of the Chairman: A Thread for Constituent Issues |
Prince Kobol
88
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Posted - 2011.12.13 18:04:00 -
[7] - Quote
Just replied to you in an other thread but since you have created this one I will repeat my post.
If you are ganked once and then return to the same spot minutes later and then ganked a 2nd time and then go back to same spot again you are asking for trouble.
If you are ganked and go back out to a different spot then ganked again, go back out to a different system and then ganked again each time by the same person then yes, you might and I emphasis might have a case.
Problem is since ganking is a approved game mechanic and is perfectly legal how can it be considered griefing?
Lets take the Goons Ice Interdiction as an example.
Somebody is ganked 3 times in a week. As a result they claim that they are being subjected to grief play as they are being stopped in a activity they enjoy.
What happens?
Another example, Say you want to force somebody out of your system for what ever reason, they could be supplying your quite little system with goods and the competition is hurting your profits.
This person is in a NPC corp.. your only method of hurting this person is to gank him with the hope that after he loses a couple of haulers loaded with goods he goes else where.
So if you target this person and repeatedly gank him.. is this grief play?
You are War Dec'd and they are using a neut alt in a NPC Corp. So you decided when ever you see this person you will gank them.
Is this grief play?
What happens if 2 people take a dislike to each other in low sec and one person makes it his mission to follow and to destroy the other person as many times as possible and this results in say 5 kills in a few hours, all in low sec, and every time they see this person in low sec they go for the kill.. is this grief play?l
The person is quite clearly is going out of there way to kill the other person but because its in low sec is it considered ok?
Grief play is very difficult, almost impossible to police when all people are doing is using approved in game mechanics.
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Cipher Jones
148
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Posted - 2011.12.13 18:04:00 -
[8] - Quote
The Mittani wrote:yes you found the joke within the joke it was well-hidden indeed, hi5
The obvious joke being that you think you've created a crisis. You ****** with the market a little, you made your friends in PL richer IRL...
Its like if Shemp Howard was Napoleon.
See what happens when fat neckbeards try to ride little ponies? The ponies die. |
Vachir Khan
TriSeq Defence Group
99
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Posted - 2011.12.13 18:14:00 -
[9] - Quote
Destination SkillQueue wrote:I'm pretty sure CCP bans can baiters in noobie systems and doesn't ignore them.
They don't, there's folks about the obvious systems who's whole corp does nothing but mess with newbies like that, have been for a long time and continue to do it. They use all kinds of "ingenious" logic such as "I merely take their ore and then fly away, I'm not baiting them at all but if one of them shoots me I have to defend myself ofcourse". I mean, if you can flip ppl go for it but don't use dumb reasoning like that, and don't do it in newbie systems.
Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.
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Goose99
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
313
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 18:15:00 -
[10] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:CCP wrote:Grief play What is grief play? Griefing A grief player, or "griefer," is a player who devotes much of his time to making othersGÇÖ lives miserable, in a large part deriving his enjoyment of the game from these activities while he does not profit from it in any way. Grief tactics are the mechanics a griefer will utilize to antagonize other players. At our discretion, players who are found to be consistently maliciously interfering with the game experience for others may receive a warning, temporary suspension or permanent banning of his account.
This should not be confused with standard conflict that might arise between two (or more) players, such as corporation wars. The EVE universe is a harsh universe largely driven by such conflict and notice must be taken of the fact that nonconsensual combat alone is not considered to be grief play per the above definition.
An example of grief play would be the so called "Can baiting" in starter systems. An experienced player drops a cargo container with some items in front of a station in a starter system and waits for a new player to take from it. The new player is flagged and promptly attacked and killed by the owner of the container. Doing the same in starter tutorial complexes is also considered grief play and will not be tolerated. Its counterproductive to your game, and its costing you a lot of money. You have never enforced this policy yet you retain it, it is very confusing. Is it simply the cost of enforcing it? Or apathy? Or did you just print that to bait people into subbing, with them thinking "EvE can't be as harsh as people say if blatant griefing is against the rules". Or do you plan on enforcing it someday? Just wondering why a company would allow itself to hemorrhage money like that, especially after this summer. Eagerly waiting your response, also eagerly awaiting griefer replies telling me what a bad poster I am and how what they do is either justified or not griefing.
The average Eve subscription length is 6 month. It takes 6 month for noobies to find this out, silly.
CCP clearly want 6 month as opposed to 0. Enforcing griefing rules would obviously not be an option, since internet spaceships are serious stuff, and the Goons must be appeased. |
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Cipher Jones
149
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Posted - 2011.12.13 18:15:00 -
[11] - Quote
Quote:Problem is since ganking is a approved game mechanic and is perfectly legal how can it be considered griefing?
Because the definition that CCP posted directly states that it is.
1. Devoting a large amount of time. 2. Malicious. 3. not profiting.
Meets all of the conditions set by CCP. No where in the definition does it say the griefers mechanic has to be an exploit.
See what happens when fat neckbeards try to ride little ponies? The ponies die. |
mkint
446
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 18:16:00 -
[12] - Quote
The Mittani wrote:oxytopes at 1500, the bad thread index is spiking across the forums, it's a crisis of market democracy~ aww, look at CCP's favorite RMTer thinking everything's about him. Ain't it special. |
Shad0wsFury
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
43
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 18:18:00 -
[13] - Quote
You sound mad.
Are you mad? |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1851
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 18:20:00 -
[14] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:The Mittani wrote:yes you found the joke within the joke it was well-hidden indeed, hi5 The obvious joke being that you think you've created a crisis. You ****** with the market a little, you made your friends in PL richer IRL... Its like if Shemp Howard was Napoleon.
i know pl is a bunch of horrid pubbies but i don't think they've decended yet to the level of mining ice |
Cipher Jones
149
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Posted - 2011.12.13 18:22:00 -
[15] - Quote
Shad0wsFury wrote:You sound mad.
Are you mad?
And you sound like you went to Penn State, and want us to be as mad as you, but we aren't.
See what happens when fat neckbeards try to ride little ponies? The ponies die. |
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
197
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Posted - 2011.12.13 18:26:00 -
[16] - Quote
Vachir Khan wrote:Destination SkillQueue wrote:I'm pretty sure CCP bans can baiters in noobie systems and doesn't ignore them. They don't, there's folks about the obvious systems who's whole corp does nothing but mess with newbies like that, have been for a long time and continue to do it. They use all kinds of "ingenious" logic such as "I merely take their ore and then fly away, I'm not baiting them at all but if one of them shoots me I have to defend myself ofcourse". I mean, if you can flip ppl go for it but don't use dumb reasoning like that, and don't do it in newbie systems.
I assume you've reported them to CCP, since you've obviously been stalking them and asked for their reasons for doing it. Their logic is irrelevant though, if their actions fall in to the griefing area. That said what you describe is can flipping and not can baiting, and it's not what the OPs rule quote describes. Just in case you don't know the difference, noob baiting is more like dropping a can in a starter system and naming it "free stuff" then killing any noob stupid enough to take something out of it. Quite different from can flipping and even it is OK outside starter systems.
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Shad0wsFury
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
43
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Posted - 2011.12.13 18:30:00 -
[17] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:Shad0wsFury wrote:You sound mad.
Are you mad? And you sound like you went to Penn State, and want us to be as mad as you, but we aren't.
And you sound like an ice miner getting repeatedly 0wned by goons. GF m8. |
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
117
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 18:35:00 -
[18] - Quote
I want to hear others too. So i can make witty responses about how someone "sound" |
mkint
446
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 18:49:00 -
[19] - Quote
Destination SkillQueue wrote:Vachir Khan wrote:Destination SkillQueue wrote:I'm pretty sure CCP bans can baiters in noobie systems and doesn't ignore them. They don't, there's folks about the obvious systems who's whole corp does nothing but mess with newbies like that, have been for a long time and continue to do it. They use all kinds of "ingenious" logic such as "I merely take their ore and then fly away, I'm not baiting them at all but if one of them shoots me I have to defend myself ofcourse". I mean, if you can flip ppl go for it but don't use dumb reasoning like that, and don't do it in newbie systems. I assume you've reported them to CCP, since you've obviously been stalking them and asked for their reasons for doing it. Their logic is irrelevant though, if their actions fall in to the griefing area. That said what you describe is can-flipping and not can-baiting, and it's not what the OPs quote describes. Just in case you don't know the difference, can-baiting noobs is more like dropping a can in a starter system and naming it "free stuff" then killing any noob stupid enough to take something out of it. Quite different from can-flipping and even it is OK outside starter systems. Cipher Jones wrote:Quote:Problem is since ganking is a approved game mechanic and is perfectly legal how can it be considered griefing? Because the definition that CCP posted directly states that it is. 1. Devoting a large amount of time. 2. Malicious. 3. not profiting. Meets all of the conditions set by CCP. No where in the definition does it say the griefers mechanic has to be an exploit. As said can-baiting noobs in starter systems is griefing, since it actually meets those criteria. The goon campaign in the ice fields on the other hand is clearly not, since they are doing it for resource denial and profit from it. It does cause severe sandy vaginas individually and therefore grief, but objectively it seems to be outside the rule you've quoted and therefore can't be considered greifing as CCP defines it. CCPs rules and definitions are the ones that decide the issue and it must always remain so, since going by individual feelings of grief can't be enforcable in a reliable and predictable way that a rule needs to be. I'm not asking you to like CCPs interpretation or agree with it, but that's the only one that matters and IMO is better for EVE and the sandbox, than what you seem to be suggesting. It sounds to me like the key question is that of profitability. That being the case, the accused individual should be required to prove that they have profited from it. If the individual was paid to do it, the accuser has a right to know who paid them for it, so they can accuse them and have them investigated. No individual, corporation, or alliances should be immune to investigation. |
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
117
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 18:50:00 -
[20] - Quote
Its an game...
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Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
599
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 18:55:00 -
[21] - Quote
Its just a game.
Shessh
1 Whiners definition of greifing is entirely different from other peoples definition of greifing to what ccp thinks its greifing.
2 CCP isnt everywhere. if they where they tempo ban you on the first time you said @#% on accident. When you meant to say ask in ingame chats.
3 Winer greifing petitions are certainly clogging up the system quite a bit.
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Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1851
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 19:01:00 -
[22] - Quote
mkint wrote:It sounds to me like the key question is that of profitability. That being the case, the accused individual should be required to prove that they have profited from it. If the individual was paid to do it, the accuser has a right to know who paid them for it, so they can accuse them and have them investigated. No individual, corporation, or alliances should be immune to investigation.
I blow up your ships and the ships of ice miners purely out of maliciousness and to grief ice miners.
You may feel free to c/p this when you petition me, I'll be busy killing and podding miners. |
Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
161
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 19:03:00 -
[23] - Quote
I can't see half the posts in this thread!
Thank the Lord! Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook-á |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
520
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 19:04:00 -
[24] - Quote
If this thread is actually about baiting in noob systems, report them and watch them get banned.
If not.....
.................AND THEN KESTRELS. Revenge should not stop at the ship!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
Prince Kobol
88
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 19:04:00 -
[25] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:mkint wrote:It sounds to me like the key question is that of profitability. That being the case, the accused individual should be required to prove that they have profited from it. If the individual was paid to do it, the accuser has a right to know who paid them for it, so they can accuse them and have them investigated. No individual, corporation, or alliances should be immune to investigation. I blow up your ships and the ships of ice miners purely out of maliciousness and to grief ice miners. You may feel free to c/p this when you petition me, I'll be busy killing and podding miners.
Case in point.. is this griefing or is this somebody who is just enjoying the game using the mechanics that have been put in place by CCP?
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Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
117
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 19:04:00 -
[26] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:mkint wrote:It sounds to me like the key question is that of profitability. That being the case, the accused individual should be required to prove that they have profited from it. If the individual was paid to do it, the accuser has a right to know who paid them for it, so they can accuse them and have them investigated. No individual, corporation, or alliances should be immune to investigation. I blow up your ships and the ships of ice miners purely out of maliciousness and to grief ice miners. You may feel free to c/p this when you petition me, I'll be busy killing and podding miners.
well played...
I blow up your ships and the ships of ice miners to enforce them to quit the game.
Would be quite different story. |
Prince Kobol
88
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Posted - 2011.12.13 19:08:00 -
[27] - Quote
Here is an idea..
Somebody post an example of a situation that can be categorically 100% described as grief play |
Vachir Khan
TriSeq Defence Group
99
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 19:10:00 -
[28] - Quote
Destination SkillQueue wrote:I assume you've reported them to CCP, since you've obviously been stalking them and asked for their reasons for doing it. Their logic is irrelevant though, if their actions fall in to the griefing area. That said what you describe is can-flipping and not can-baiting, and it's not what the OPs quote describes. Just in case you don't know the difference, can-baiting noobs is more like dropping a can in a starter system and naming it "free stuff" then killing any noob stupid enough to take something out of it. Quite different from can-flipping and even it is OK outside starter systems.
Can flipping is equally not allowed in newbie system against newbies, just incase you didn't know. And yes I occasionally put a fresh alt in those systems in a bait Osprey and laugh at their sad reasonings and twists of logic.
Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.
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Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
117
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Posted - 2011.12.13 19:11:00 -
[29] - Quote
Prince Kobol wrote:Here is an idea..
Somebody post an example of a situation that can be categorically 100% described as grief play that is not can baiting noobs in 1.0 space
In this game. Hardly.
The one who continuously killing one player, whatever he do, anywhere in EVE. For some specific ammount of time .. ltes say one month, while descending to real life threats. |
Lady Spank
GET OUT NASTY FACE
456
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 19:15:00 -
[30] - Quote
While I don't really know why I am bothering to respond to this tiresome poster...
Suicide ganking IS profitable, just because you don't know how to make ISK doing it just further shows your limited understanding of the game.
Have fun trying to troll people on the forums though. (a¦á_a¦â) ~ http://getoutnastyface.blogspot.com/ ~ (a¦á_a¦â) |
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