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The Larold
Avalon Enterprises
41
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Posted - 2015.12.15 22:15:55 -
[1] - Quote
In my Golem, I turn on bastion mode, turn on a missile guidance computer loaded with a range script, and load up Javelin torpedoes. Hovering over the launcher, it says max distance is 99km. However, I can't hit a stationary target until it's under 90-91km. There are no defender missiles involved.
Have I discovered a bug or is there something else I'm not accounting for? Does actual missile flight involve accelerating from 0, where as the calculation used to display max range assumes instant acceleration? |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1753
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Posted - 2015.12.15 23:41:59 -
[2] - Quote
The Larold wrote:In my Golem, I turn on bastion mode, turn on a missile guidance computer loaded with a range script, and load up Javelin torpedoes. Hovering over the launcher, it says max distance is 99km. However, I can't hit a stationary target until it's under 90-91km. There are no defender missiles involved.
Have I discovered a bug or is there something else I'm not accounting for? Does actual missile flight involve accelerating from 0, where as the calculation used to display max range assumes instant acceleration?
Range Scripts simply do not work in Missile Guidance Computers. it is a known bug but apparently being ignored:
Bug Thread Here
This is not really a new player topic though, wrong forum.
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Chainsaw Plankton
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
2209
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Posted - 2015.12.16 00:13:55 -
[3] - Quote
1. Missiles have acceleration times. so that reduces range a little 2. Missiles fire from the center of your ship, I'm not exactly sure where they hit on the target, could be edge or center. golem isn't too large but that will lose a bit of range.
looking at a typical torp golem in eft it says without a MGC the range is 84km, with an unscripted it is 91, and with a script it goes up to 98.1km. Hitting at 90km is about what I'd expect with a fudge factor of ~10%. All this + cruise missile buff = I just use cruise missiles. 18km/s missiles that can hit at 300km yes please.
someone's screenshot of a tooltip not updating doesn't convince me of anything.
@ChainsawPlankto
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Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
5597
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Posted - 2015.12.16 00:27:05 -
[4] - Quote
Dunno if it is still the case, but it was reported recently that missiles were not travelling to expected range.
In one test report I read, missiles fired on the same immobile target did not consistently hit it at any range (even 0m), and had far less than the expected range.
Example: rockets fired upon an immobile battleship at 0m did not hit.
Might want to do your own tests and file a bug report if necessary. |
Chainsaw Plankton
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
2210
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Posted - 2015.12.16 02:52:54 -
[5] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:Dunno if it is still the case, but it was reported recently that missiles were not travelling to expected range.
In one test report I read, missiles fired on the same immobile target did not consistently hit it at any range (even 0m), and had far less than the expected range.
Example: rockets fired upon an immobile battleship at 0m did not hit.
Might want to do your own tests and file a bug report if necessary. now that sounds messed up.
although since when a missile fizzles out it doesn't generate a log it seems like something that would be easy to miss. on something like a rocket garmur the missiles come out so fast it is hard to count unless you are paying attention specifically to that.
@ChainsawPlankto
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Luna Bowman
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
4
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Posted - 2015.12.16 10:38:57 -
[6] - Quote
Perhaps, missile range is not really pure range from your ship, but its maximum flight path length - i.e. how many km it flies on its real trajectory? So if it has i.e. to chase something, that range would effectivelly decrease ? |
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1024
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Posted - 2015.12.16 11:25:32 -
[7] - Quote
Luna Bowman wrote:Perhaps, missile range is not really pure range from your ship, but its maximum flight path length - i.e. how many km it flies on its real trajectory? So if it has i.e. to chase something, that range would effectivelly decrease ? Yes this is most certainly the case. However you are thinking about it from an outside perspective or maybe an absolute mathematical perspective.
If you are the guy flying the missile ship you learn pretty quickly where you can hit stuff and where you can't. You know when you can start shooting at something when it's heading towards you or running away etc... If you add a module that is supposed to increase you range 10 KM and nothing changes then you would notice that nothing had changed.
Also the OP mentioned that he had tried it on stationary targets:
The Larold wrote: However, I can't hit a stationary target until it's under 90-91km.
So while you are correct in your assumption it does not change the fact that the OP seems to have noticed a bug.
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Chainsaw Plankton
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
2214
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Posted - 2015.12.16 20:42:17 -
[8] - Quote
ergherhdfgh wrote:Luna Bowman wrote:Perhaps, missile range is not really pure range from your ship, but its maximum flight path length - i.e. how many km it flies on its real trajectory? So if it has i.e. to chase something, that range would effectivelly decrease ? Yes this is most certainly the case. However you are thinking about it from an outside perspective or maybe an absolute mathematical perspective. If you are the guy flying the missile ship you learn pretty quickly where you can hit stuff and where you can't. You know when you can start shooting at something when it's heading towards you or running away etc... If you add a module that is supposed to increase you range 10 KM and nothing changes then you would notice that nothing had changed. Also the OP mentioned that he had tried it on stationary targets: The Larold wrote: However, I can't hit a stationary target until it's under 90-91km.
So while you are correct in your assumption it does not change the fact that the OP seems to have noticed a bug. missiles have always had a bit of a fudge factor. the OP simply posted a range and the possibility to hit that is for all that I know exactly within the fudge factor. If a MGC range doesn't work that is unrelated.
Although if something is following you then you get a bit of bonus range. I've been taking advantage of that with the rocket garmur, and suitonia has a nice pvp video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sc6XaVJhcRQ
@ChainsawPlankto
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Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
5605
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Posted - 2015.12.16 21:43:52 -
[9] - Quote
Luna Bowman wrote:Perhaps, missile range is not really pure range from your ship, but its maximum flight path length - i.e. how many km it flies on its real trajectory? So if it has i.e. to chase something, that range would effectivelly decrease ? Missiles are actually "ships", in that when launched a new object that can be interacted with is created.
Hence they are the bane of developers for causing lag in fleet fights.
Bombers used to fire Compact Torpedoes, but were changed to be more like turrets. |
Ginnie
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
47
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Posted - 2015.12.16 22:25:06 -
[10] - Quote
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:2. Missiles fire from the center of your ship, I'm not exactly sure where they hit on the target, could be edge or center. golem isn't too large but that will lose a bit of range.
Wow...do they really account for the size of the ship? If that's true, then this is quite the attention to detail!
All that we see or seem is but a dream within a dream. -Edgar Allan Poe
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Solonius Rex
F0RCED ENTRY
209
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Posted - 2015.12.17 02:27:01 -
[11] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:Luna Bowman wrote:Perhaps, missile range is not really pure range from your ship, but its maximum flight path length - i.e. how many km it flies on its real trajectory? So if it has i.e. to chase something, that range would effectivelly decrease ? Missiles are actually "ships", in that when launched a new object that can be interacted with is created. Hence they are the bane of developers for causing lag in fleet fights. Bombers used to fire Compact Torpedoes, but were changed to be more like turrets.
Does this mean that a missile can bump a frigate? |
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1028
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Posted - 2015.12.17 10:06:44 -
[12] - Quote
Chainsaw Plankton wrote: missiles have always had a bit of a fudge factor. the OP simply posted a range and the possibility to hit that is for all that I know exactly within the fudge factor. If a MGC range doesn't work that is unrelated.
The listed range on missiles is calculated by multiplying the flight speed by the flight time. Missiles have acceleration time so that listed number is not exact the actual range is slightly less than the listed range. However it is only slightly. The listed range is pretty close to actual.
I may have misunderstood but what I gather from reading this thread is that the OP has a range listed of somewhere around 90 -91 without his MGC turned on and he can hit stationary objects at about that range. He turns on his MGC and his listed range goes up to about 99 yet he still can only hit things from about the same range as with it off.
Yes there is a bit of a fudge factor but if your listed range is 91 and you can hit things at 90 but don't at 91 then if you turn on a module that says it increases your range to 99 then you certainly should be able to hit stationary objects at 95 for example.
Maybe I misunderstood but that is what I took from reading the beginning part of this thread.
Ginnie wrote: Wow...do they really account for the size of the ship? If that's true, then this is quite the attention to detail!
I'm not sure if they take that into account for ship size but I do know that they do with jump gates. So for example the size of a jump gate is determined by the distance between the connecting gates. Some of the gates in this game with large jumps between systems can be huge.
Your distance from the gate is your distance from where the edge of the gate is rendered and your spawn point which is randomly located somewhere 12 KM from the edge of where the gate is rendered can be a very large bubble of potentiality on bigger gates. When trying camp the gate and decloak ships larger gates can make things significantly more difficult, or at least that is how Jester explained it anyways.
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Cara Forelli
Meticulously Indifferent
1381
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Posted - 2015.12.17 14:25:04 -
[13] - Quote
Solonius Rex wrote:Tau Cabalander wrote:Missiles are actually "ships", in that when launched a new object that can be interacted with is created. Hence they are the bane of developers for causing lag in fleet fights. Bombers used to fire Compact Torpedoes, but were changed to be more like turrets. Does this mean that a missile can bump a frigate? Not sure about that, but I have definitely been decloaked by a missile when I flew my bomber between a tengu and the sleeper he was shooting. I know it was the missile because when I tried to recloak it happened again and said "you can't activate that because you are within 2000m of caldari navy scourge heavy assault missile..."
Adventures
New player with questions? Join my public channel in game: House Forelli
Titan's Lament
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Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
1836
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Posted - 2015.12.17 14:52:12 -
[14] - Quote
I just did an extensive test and found some really weird data.
Used an ibis with LML and tested actual ranges with different modules loaded. I tried it both closing in as moving away (to account for Auto Pilot inaccuracy) to the nearest 100m. This is what I found.
- no modules online: 3750 x 5.5 = 20625 range from ammo stat 20km indicated on mouse over launcher icon Actual range: 19000m
Consistent with losing some 5-10% due to missile acceleration
- 1 x Guidance Enhancer: 3918.75 x 5.75 = 22532.8 range 22km indicated actual range: 23700m
WTF, that is beyond max indicated by about 5% (difficult to really calc due to AP inaccuracies)
- 1 x Guidance Computer: 4050 x 5.94 = 24057 range 24km indicated Actual range: 24700
Again, beyond indicated range by about 3% (see above)
- 1x GE + 1x GC 4208.4 x 6.17 = 25965.8 range 25km indicated actual range: 25400
Only some 2-3% below max range which is weird due to missile acceleration, but below what was expected given the earlier findings
===== As the findings are silly I rechecked them but came to the same conclusions:
- missiles without guidance mods behave as expected taking missile acceleration into account - missiles helped by either GC or GE (didn't check for multiples) perform above expected and even above max range - missiles with both GC and GE are even weirder, somehow
No idea what to think of this. |
ISD Fractal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
297
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Posted - 2015.12.17 15:42:50 -
[15] - Quote
There was a very interesting post on Reddit the other day about missile flight time. I'll quote part of it here, maybe it will help you. The long and the short is that fractions of a second don't mesh well with server ticks, so fractions of a second turn into percentage chances of either hitting the higher value or the lower value.
Quote:My favorite part about missiles is the fact that nearly nobody knows how the mechanics actually work. For instance, the distance they travel is not velocity * flight time, because in Eve missiles do not travel for fractions of a second. Instead, a percentage of them travel for a full second longer - and that percentage is related to the fraction of a second of flight time.
So a 10km/s missile with a 5.4s flight time does not travel for 54km, even though EFT (and even the game) says that. It actually travels 50km, with a 40% chance to travel 60km.
This becomes incredibly important on ships with a missile velocity bonus, like the Orthrus for instance.
Missile flight time is 3.75, velocity is 17.3k. EFT (and Eve), says that you have missiles that go 65.2km. In fact, you have missiles that go 52km 25% of the time, and missiles that go 69.5km 75% of the time. Did you think that at 69km, your ~ max range~, you'd be losing a quarter of your DPS?
Read more here.
ISD Fractal
Ensign
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
1836
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Posted - 2015.12.17 15:59:36 -
[16] - Quote
That is actually a good point, I didn't think about that. Still weird that it so consistently performed that way but I'll retry with long flight time missiles to, mostly, eliminate that problem. |
The Larold
Avalon Enterprises
43
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Posted - 2015.12.17 17:17:27 -
[17] - Quote
ISD Fractal wrote:There was a very interesting post on Reddit the other day about missile flight time. I'll quote part of it here, maybe it will help you. The long and the short is that fractions of a second don't mesh well with server ticks, so fractions of a second turn into percentage chances of either hitting the higher value or the lower value. Quote:My favorite part about missiles is the fact that nearly nobody knows how the mechanics actually work. For instance, the distance they travel is not velocity * flight time, because in Eve missiles do not travel for fractions of a second. Instead, a percentage of them travel for a full second longer - and that percentage is related to the fraction of a second of flight time.
So a 10km/s missile with a 5.4s flight time does not travel for 54km, even though EFT (and even the game) says that. It actually travels 50km, with a 40% chance to travel 60km.
This becomes incredibly important on ships with a missile velocity bonus, like the Orthrus for instance.
Missile flight time is 3.75, velocity is 17.3k. EFT (and Eve), says that you have missiles that go 65.2km. In fact, you have missiles that go 52km 25% of the time, and missiles that go 69.5km 75% of the time. Did you think that at 69km, your ~ max range~, you'd be losing a quarter of your DPS? Read more here.
Brilliant find. I'm frustrated I didn't think of this. Thanks - it explains so much! (Sounds like it's kind like setting up for alignment time - do whatever you can to get your missile flight just above the next whole integer value to capitalize on server ticks.)
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Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
408
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Posted - 2015.12.17 22:16:19 -
[18] - Quote
so there is a way to time alignment time to coincide with ticks?
I just want to get a plex as fast as i can so i dont have to worry about resubbing, 15 dollars is Cat litter and Food for my cat, or 2 Grams of Weed, i'd rather spend it on that then on this game--Rogue Mime
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Ginnie
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
58
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Posted - 2015.12.17 22:36:13 -
[19] - Quote
ISD Fractal wrote:So a 10km/s missile with a 5.4s flight time does not travel for 54km, even though EFT (and even the game) says that. It actually travels 50km, with a 40% chance to travel 60km.
Again, wow, and back to my point, this is incredibly detailed!
All that we see or seem is but a dream within a dream. -Edgar Allan Poe
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