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Whitehound
2896
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Posted - 2015.12.24 18:00:57 -
[1] - Quote
See here.
(Here is a memorable picture of it in case it changes.)
Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
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Jenshae Chiroptera
2448
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Posted - 2015.12.24 19:35:48 -
[2] - Quote
How do we fix these results so it is #1 forever?
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids
There are other ways to fix Null Sec stagnation and Fozzie SOV is the wrong approach.
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Whitehound
2896
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Posted - 2015.12.24 20:18:41 -
[3] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:How do we fix these results so it is #1 forever? This is a good question. I have added a vote to it and will have to wait and see now.
Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
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Neuntausend
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
477
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Posted - 2015.12.25 18:05:32 -
[4] - Quote
Eve being platinum I find rather odd, to be frank. Platinum means, that everything works flawlessly 'out of the box', which is simply not the case. |
Whitehound
2897
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Posted - 2015.12.25 20:54:36 -
[5] - Quote
Neuntausend wrote:Eve being platinum I find rather odd, to be frank. Platinum means, that everything works flawlessly 'out of the box', which is simply not the case. This is just you. It works for several people including myself the way you said it yourself: out of the box. Maybe you want someone to help you, maybe you want a better Linux distribution, but complaining about it will not change a thing.
Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
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MAnuOmNama
Es and Whizz Hedonistic Imperative
3
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Posted - 2015.12.26 09:25:37 -
[6] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Neuntausend wrote:Eve being platinum I find rather odd, to be frank. Platinum means, that everything works flawlessly 'out of the box', which is simply not the case. This is just you. It works for several people including myself the way you said it yourself: out of the box. Maybe you want someone to help you, maybe you want a better Linux distribution, but complaining about it will not change a thing.
You've got the CQ working and are seeing the new shield and armour hardener effects? |
Whitehound
2897
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Posted - 2015.12.27 00:02:56 -
[7] - Quote
MAnuOmNama wrote:Whitehound wrote:Neuntausend wrote:Eve being platinum I find rather odd, to be frank. Platinum means, that everything works flawlessly 'out of the box', which is simply not the case. This is just you. It works for several people including myself the way you said it yourself: out of the box. Maybe you want someone to help you, maybe you want a better Linux distribution, but complaining about it will not change a thing. You've got the CQ working and are seeing the new shield and armour hardener effects? Both has got nothing to do with EVE's Platinum rating. The CQ never works under WINE, because the Python DLL that CCP ships with their game is buggy and CCP just does not support WINE to care about it. And that WINE does not yet support DX10/11/12 is well known. So when a game can be installed out of the box, runs and is very well playable then it gets rated Platinum, and this is the case.
That it may not meet all your expectations is a completely different story. I never cared for the CQ and many EVE players who play under Windows do not turn station environments on nor run it on high settings even when they can. During the last mass tests just before they introduced the new graphics effects, in which I participated under Windows, did my frame rate drop below 7-8 FPS! So I am asking you and because it is Christmas... how about we keep our expectations real and stop with the complaints? Instead, let us be happy for EVE getting the highest rating and see to it that it stays there.
Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
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Neuntausend
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
477
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Posted - 2015.12.28 11:54:13 -
[8] - Quote
Quote:Platinum
An application can be rated as Platinum if it installs and runs flawlessly GÇÿout of the boxGÇÖ. No changes required in winecfg.
That's got nothing to do with my expectations, it's what it says here: https://appdb.winehq.org/help/?sTopic=maintainer_ratings
It works decently out of the box, yes. But it does not work flawlessly. Just why some things don't work does not matter - they just don't. Even gold requires the application to run "flawlessly".
Eve should at best be silver, because no matter what you do, overrides or no, some things just don't work:
Quote:Silver
Application works excellently for GÇÿnormalGÇÖ use; |
Whitehound
2899
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Posted - 2015.12.29 16:54:55 -
[9] - Quote
Neuntausend wrote:It works decently well out of the box, yes. But it does not work flawlessly, which is clearly a requirement for the "platinum" rating. ... Again, the fault is in your expectations. What you quote is an example for an application that was rated as Platinum. You now expect that this must be the rule by which it is decided, and again you are wrong and it was just another expectation of yours.
Now, the example they give on their website for a Platinum rating is a pretty obvious one. Of course, we all can have expectations and an application that works absolutely perfectly (which is again something that we would first need to define and agree upon...) is what we expect to see in getting such a rating, isn't it? It does however not mean that only the most perfect applications and only them should ever receive Platinum.
So how does one find out? You make a vote and state your findings. And as a matter of fact did my vote now got accepted as Platinum. So there you have it! The fact that the Captains Quarter does not work, because of a bug in the python.dll nor the fact that DX11 is not supported, because the WINE development in this area just is not ready yet, nor the fact that one gets a lot less frames per second when compared to Windows, has stopped EVE Online from getting another Platinum rating. End of story.
Now you can go ahead and have some new expectations and complain some more in hope that somebody out there will finally meet up with your expectations. There still is a small chance that you could get lucky ...
Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
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Mister Ripley
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
106
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Posted - 2015.12.29 19:09:20 -
[10] - Quote
So if something doesn't work and I expect it to not work it should be platinum? Or is this just a fault in my expectation?
By thew way.. EVE was platinum on 26.05.2010 for the first time.. |
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Neuntausend
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
480
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Posted - 2015.12.29 20:26:00 -
[11] - Quote
No, what I linked is not an "example" - it's a definition. It says so in the page title: "Maintainer Rating Definitions", not "Maintainer Rating Examples". Please look up what "definition" means.
"Platinum" means (by definition, literally) "the application runs flawlessly out of the box". Eve does run out of the box, but it does not run flawlessly. Thereby it should not be rated platinum.
"Silver" is defined as "Application works excellently for GÇÿnormalGÇÖ use" and it gives a few examples. Assuming Captains Quarters does not count as 'normal use' as most people don't use it and it's not required to play, one could say that Eve does indeed "work excellently for normal use" - Eve should be rated silver.
I also do not get why you would want Eve to be rated platinum. If Eve was indeed platinum quality on wine, it would mean that there's nothing left to improve. But there clearly is. Why would you want to fool yourself into believing everything is perfect, when it's clearly not? |
Whitehound
2899
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Posted - 2015.12.29 20:35:09 -
[12] - Quote
Just more expectations...
You will be fighting the whole world before you realize it.
Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
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Neuntausend
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
483
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Posted - 2015.12.29 21:32:27 -
[13] - Quote
I know how the ratings work, and it's the reason why those ratings aren't worth ****. The only appdb rating you can somewhat rely on is "garbage", because even a moron like you will acknowlege when something doesn't work at all.
Ratings are not a race or a competition. There's nothing wrong with accepting the fact that some things don't work. But I guess, reason is lost on you. |
Whitehound
2899
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Posted - 2015.12.30 00:13:38 -
[14] - Quote
Neuntausend wrote:I know how the ratings work, and it's the reason why those ratings aren't worth ****. The only appdb rating you can somewhat rely on is "garbage", because even a moron like you will acknowlege when something doesn't work at all.
Ratings are not a race or a competition. There's nothing wrong with accepting the fact that some things don't work. But I guess, reason is wasted on you. No, you did not know how the ratings worked and I bet you still do not understand them, because you are now calling me a moron. The fact that you do not get it is the reason why we are having this conversation. And before you go on about the necessity of accepting facts do you first need to accept these rules. Instead, you want to call them some 4 star censored word, because really you are having a problem with accepting them as facts.
I am just happy for EVE working for me and for the game getting a Platinum rating. You on the other hand are trying so hard to feel miserable about all of it. All because EVE violated your girlfriend "Platinum Expectations".
And when ratings are not a race nor a competition, then answer me, why are you fighting so hard against it? Well??
Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
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Neuntausend
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
483
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Posted - 2015.12.30 00:52:39 -
[15] - Quote
Well, if it makes you happy, have fun getting yourself off on a platinum rating, I guess. Congratulations, Eve has won Wine! |
Whitehound
2899
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Posted - 2015.12.30 02:03:24 -
[16] - Quote
Neuntausend wrote:Well, if it makes you happy, have fun getting yourself off on a platinum rating, I guess. Congratulations, Eve has won Wine! I am not getting off on a rating. I am getting off on your wining. You are so good at it and you never stop! If it was not for Jerry Seinfeld could you be making money with it on TV.
Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
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ISD Max Trix
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
92
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Posted - 2015.12.30 02:36:37 -
[17] - Quote
Quote: 2. Be respectful toward others at all times.
The purpose of the EVE Online forums is to provide a platform for exchange of ideas, and a venue for the discussion of EVE Online. Occasionally there will be conflicts that arise when people voice opinions. Forum users are expected to be courteous when disagreeing with others.
I have removed some post and those quoting them for the above reason. Please keep it civil.
ISD Max Trix
Ensign
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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Neuntausend
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
485
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Posted - 2015.12.30 12:22:20 -
[18] - Quote
Ok, then once more with respect:
I am aware of how the ratings come to be. However, since anyone and their mother can submit test results, and pretty much anyone can be a maintainer as well, there's no real QA involved in the whole process. People who submit test results to the AppDB, especially for games, usually care strongly about the app they are submitting the test results for, and are inclined to rate the app higher than it should be. In the end, the rating is decided on more by how well people "feel" the application works for them, instead of how well it actually works, making the definitions declared by the AppDB itself completely worthless.
The Voting, btw, doesn't have anything to do with the ratings. The vote is what tells the Wine developers which applications and games people care about most. If an application has many votes, the developers know that's one they should concentrate their efforts on. I don't have anything against Eve being in a top ten list - it just shows that Linux people care about Eve, which is a good thing from the perspective of a Linux Eve Player.
However, the Ratings do not come together by means of vote, but by means of test results. It should not be democracy. If there's anything in the "What doesn't work" section of the test results, an application does not run flawlessly, and should therefore, by definition, not be rated platinum. I know it "can" be rated platinum, because there is no actual quality assessment involved, but that doesn't mean it should be. I can just say it again: It's not a race or competition of sorts. We don't gain anything by rating Eve higher than it should be. We would be much better off with Eve in the Top Ten Silver list, because that would send a signal to the developers, that even though many Linux people play Eve, it's not quite there yet. And in fact it isn't. Direct X 11 support is a thing the Wine developers will have to implement. And it doesn't really matter, whether the captains quaters is considered buggy or not - it works flawlessly on Windows, and as Wine is striving to emulate the Windows API, it should work on Wine as well, bugs or no.
That being said, I am very happy with how well Eve works these days, and has been for a long time now. It's very performant, by far most things work out of the box. Apart from the odd hiccup after major updates, Eve under wine is pretty hassle-free. But the fact still stands: It's not flawless, and therefore does not qualify for a "gold" or "platinum" rating. |
Whitehound
2899
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Posted - 2015.12.30 16:06:46 -
[19] - Quote
Neuntausend wrote:But the fact still stands: It's not flawless, and therefore does not qualify for a "gold" or "platinum" rating. No. It is not flawless, but it does qualify for Platinum. These are the facts. What you have is an opinion based on a false expectation of the rating system and a believe in absolutes such as the existence of flawless software and Santa Clause.
No software of a certain complexity will ever run flawless under WINE, because such software does not even run flawless under Windows. Therefore to expect that the highest possible rating would reflect flawlessness is unrealistic. The highest possible rating needs to reflect what is currently practical possible.
Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
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Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1988
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Posted - 2015.12.30 18:15:27 -
[20] - Quote
No, it really does not qualify as platinum. There where some moments in the history of EVE and wine where the platinum rating would have been ok. But currently there are some things that just don't work and therefor it should be rated silver.
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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Whitehound
2899
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Posted - 2015.12.30 18:58:15 -
[21] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:No, it really does not qualify as platinum. There where some moments in the history of EVE and wine where the platinum rating would have been ok. But currently there are some things that just don't work and therefor it should be rated silver. What do we have here? More expectations?! EVE is the second highest rated game. Yet, if it was up to you should the scale consist of at least two empty ratings above EVE. I say at least, because we have not yet discussed what other unrealistic expectations one can have once one admits to having abandoned the reality.
Not only could one imagine that at some day in the future WINE would copy Windows by a perfect 100%, but that further it also beats Windows by being better! Of course this would create a paradox, because it either copies it by 100% or it is different by being better, which means it cannot possibly be both at the same time. Still, one can imagine things and dream up fantasy ratings where it can have a paradox, too. It is the best part of a fantasy! So once you admit to the loss of reality does everything become a possibility. Still, only a small child would expect a fantasy to be real.
EVE got rated Platinum and your expectations got violated. You better get your EVE working under Linux now and start enjoying it, because your expectations have failed you.
Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
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Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1990
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Posted - 2015.12.30 19:55:52 -
[22] - Quote
There is a clear definition for the ratings and the eve rating does not match this definition. This has nothing to do with expectations or opinions, it's a simple fact.
I never played EVE on windows (windows 98 was my last windows installed on any of my machines), I always used linux with wine since I started in 2007. Did that just violate your expectation?
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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Mister Ripley
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
107
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Posted - 2015.12.30 21:22:38 -
[23] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:The highest rating needs to reflect what is currently possible so that it meets with realistic expectations. So if "currently possible" is: It sucks. Then it should be platinum? What are you talking, dude. Maybe chill a little bit and let it go...
You also make me agree with CODE. members... Thanks Obama. |
Whitehound
2899
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Posted - 2015.12.30 22:27:39 -
[24] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:There is a clear definition for the ratings and the eve rating does not match this definition. This has nothing to do with expectations or opinions, it's a simple fact.
I never played EVE on windows (windows 98 was my last windows installed on any of my machines), I always used linux with wine since I started in 2007. Did that just violate your expectation? Wrong again. There is no clear definition for the rating as it is a vote. When more people rate an application as platinum than not then it is also the current definition of it.
Mister Ripley wrote:So if "currently possible" is: It sucks. Then it should be platinum? What are you talking, dude. Maybe chill a little bit and let it go... Theoretically, yes, what you fear is this certainly within the range of possibilities. But many voters have come to understand the democratic principle behind the rating system and because they will also share your fear with you am I fairly certain that it will neither have unrealistic high or low ratings, but that the ratings will always reflect the opinions of the majority. You then do not need to agree with me, because we do have the voting system for this very reason. I hope you find relief in my words nevertheless and do not feel forced to just agree with a CODE agent.
Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
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Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1995
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Posted - 2015.12.31 00:34:33 -
[25] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:There is a clear definition for the ratings and the eve rating does not match this definition. This has nothing to do with expectations or opinions, it's a simple fact.
I never played EVE on windows (windows 98 was my last windows installed on any of my machines), I always used linux with wine since I started in 2007. Did that just violate your expectation? Wrong again. There is no clear definition for the rating as it is a vote. When more people rate an application as platinum than not then it is also the current definition of it. Here is the list, and no it is not a vote. the votes have nothing to do with the rating: https://appdb.winehq.org/help/?sTopic=maintainer_ratings
- The installation still needs a lot of DLLs installed via winetricks, so it does not run "out of the box". - There are several features which do not work correctly, like the captains quarters (no one cares) and some of the new effects (which are important for me at least to determine if a hardener is on or not).
So no, the game should not be rated platinum, no matter how you "feel" about it.
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
337
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Posted - 2015.12.31 05:58:10 -
[26] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Neuntausend wrote:It works decently well out of the box, yes. But it does not work flawlessly, which is clearly a requirement for the "platinum" rating. ... Again, the fault is in your expectations. What you quote is an example for an application that was rated as Platinum. You now expect that this must be the rule by which it is decided, and again you are wrong and it was just another expectation of yours. If I can get EVE to run on Linux without tweaking and at low settings (which is how I run it on my windows laptop to avoid thermal death) or even moderate settings:I would consider that "out of the box".
Now I need to give this a try. |
Whitehound
2900
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Posted - 2015.12.31 13:06:34 -
[27] - Quote
Petrified wrote:Whitehound wrote:Neuntausend wrote:It works decently well out of the box, yes. But it does not work flawlessly, which is clearly a requirement for the "platinum" rating. ... Again, the fault is in your expectations. What you quote is an example for an application that was rated as Platinum. You now expect that this must be the rule by which it is decided, and again you are wrong and it was just another expectation of yours. If I can get EVE to run on Linux without tweaking and at low settings (which is how I run it on my windows laptop to avoid thermal death) or even moderate settings:I would consider that "out of the box". Now I need to give this a try. I hope it is working for you. It did just that for me. And this was with the default Debian Kernel, the non-free driver package of Nvidia drivers (340.96) and WINE 1.8. I did not need to recompile anything or tweak anything before it worked. I did have to use winetricks to get the necessary components, but I do not consider this tweaking or hacking, because it is a necessity for many applications under WINE and a part of the installation process for as long as I know WINE.
I did in fact expected it not to work this flawless and was therefore surprised to get two clients up and running with the new launcher. I expected that I had to change the library orders around as this was always needed in the past. Now that has stopped, too.
It just worked right away. So for me was it a Platinum experience all the way.
Of course there are people who do have problems running the game, both under Linux and Windows. There will always be some less fortunate or less knowledgeable who need help.
Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
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Whitehound
2900
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Posted - 2015.12.31 13:10:34 -
[28] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:... So no, the game should not be rated platinum, no matter how you "feel" about it.
An application can be rated as Platinum if it installs and runs flawlessly GÇÿout of the boxGÇÖ. No changes required in winecfg.
This is exactly how it was for me. No feelings required. The happy feelings came afterwards
Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
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Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1998
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Posted - 2016.01.01 16:09:34 -
[29] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:I am surprised how far this thread has grown by now. I did not expect EVE players who have problems getting their game running under Linux to feel so badly about the rating. I wonder why. It is just a rating and it does not control how well the game runs or hinders it in anyway. So in the worst case would one just ignore it, but apparently does it cause quit a bit of bad feelings. But I am not surprised that it is a Goon and a CODE agent who feel bad about it. Those who excel at causing problems do not necessarily excel at solving problems. I am not sure if you are in the right subforums if you just want to troll. Please take your "Grrr Code, Hat Goons!!" comments to some other forum this is about EVE on Linux and has nothing to to with our ingame persona.
There was a short time when EVE was running without any additional DDL installed trough winetricks or any other means and it ran flawless. This I consider a platinum rating, if wine runs a game or piece of software "out of the box" without any proprietary third-party DLLs you are probably not even using legally if you don't have a windows license. Installing additional third-party DLLs is by definition not "running out of the box", no matter ho easy it is to install them with winetricks this days.
I am not sure why you think my problem with the rating has something to do with my ability to run EVE on Linux. I do this for ~8 years and never had any problems I could not solve within minutes also thanks to the people of this subforum and winehq.
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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Ragnar STS
Minmatar Brotherhood Ushra'Khan
80
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Posted - 2016.01.06 01:34:14 -
[30] - Quote
Confirming Whitehound has problems with reading comprehension.
Eve simply does not work out of the box. Therefore it is not platinum.
Eve requires very small tweaks, most easily completed with Winetricks as he already admitted himself.
Just because one is used to popping the hood and giving the carburetor a squirt of starting fluid does not mean that it is ok to apply that same logic to every single vehicle you have the opportunity of driving and say that it is 'platinum' with 'nothing wrong' and 'works out of the box'. You can't sell a car on a used car lot that needs starting fluid and say it is in mint, excellent or even good condition. It is 'fair'.
Every single one of us followed specific instructions to make the thing go. If you have to follow instructions it pretty much isn't platinum, as per wine developer standards and definitions.
Request a mod please lock this completely useless thread that is probably designed to draw attention to somebody's attempt to pad a resume. |
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