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Caleb Seremshur
Gladiators of Rage RAZOR Alliance
720
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Posted - 2015.12.27 15:42:30 -
[1] - Quote
Since TMC's editor in chief will be writing an article soon about player retention strategies and I personally have wondered about it for the longest time - what are strictly speaking the most effective ways to retain players?
And we're not just talking about newbies fresh off the clone table we're talking all players including long time vets.
Personally I don't find the game very engaging any more, personal goals have almost all been reached and I'm finding other games more entertaining. Fleets formed to kill towers don't excite me, nor does endless station game bullshit. I certainly could grind for more ISK but that's still not what gets the blood pumping. Am I just a bitter vet? What kind of terrible death is this ennui and how can I escape it and by extension be retained by CCP?
Veteran and solo/small gang PVP advocate.
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Solecist Project
The Scope Gallente Federation
28818
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Posted - 2015.12.27 15:54:25 -
[2] - Quote
Goons don't attract quality. KarmaFleet is full of below average cheap labour only here because of bread and circus ......
Alex Grison > If there was a bipartisan bill supporting cannabis use for arthritic pain, it would be Joint support for Joint support for joint support
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Lathael
Inner Ring Conglomerate
10
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Posted - 2015.12.27 16:17:10 -
[3] - Quote
The magic of a space game was for me always "immersion".
As a small kid I had a lot of fantasy and games like Privateer entertained me with the feeling to explore and live in that universe. And I want to have that feeiling again.
I started to play EVE Online at a time where not so many space simulators were available, space sim fans had no real choices. But now competition has arrived and they do the immersion part better than EVE Online does.
Sure those games have other issues but if immersion is your big thing EVE Online does not cater. EVE was always spreadsheets in space. And the immersion factor was never big considered.
You cannot walk in stations (I do not count the one room) or on planets or explore your ship. The ships controls are indirect and you fly your ship from outside which is also not helping to be part of the universe. And there is a general lack of small fluff things like people doing some repair work.
I cannot look into the heads of other people but I assume that it could be a point why people leave EVE Online and try other space sims.
I still hope that Dust514 and EVE Online is more merged in the future, because in Dust I had more the immersion feeling.
We will see what the future brings.
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Paranoid Loyd
7911
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Posted - 2015.12.27 16:19:35 -
[4] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:what are strictly speaking the most effective ways to retain players? Honestly I am starting to think the most effective thing they can do is stop taking advice from the playerbase.
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!
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Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
7182
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Posted - 2015.12.27 16:37:03 -
[5] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:Caleb Seremshur wrote:what are strictly speaking the most effective ways to retain players? Honestly I am starting to think the most effective thing they can do is stop taking advice from the playerbase.
This. Build the game they want to build, and retain the players that like what they produce.
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
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Ria Nieyli
37368
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Posted - 2015.12.27 16:42:47 -
[6] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:Since TMC's editor in chief will be writing an article soon about player retention strategies and I personally have wondered about it for the longest time - what are strictly speaking the most effective ways to retain players?
And we're not just talking about newbies fresh off the clone table we're talking all players including long time vets.
Personally I don't find the game very engaging any more, personal goals have almost all been reached and I'm finding other games more entertaining. Fleets formed to kill towers don't excite me, nor does endless station game bullshit. I certainly could grind for more ISK but that's still not what gets the blood pumping. Am I just a bitter vet? What kind of terrible death is this ennui and how can I escape it and by extension be retained by CCP?
Tell people how good the EVE playerbase is when compared to other games. Disregard the existance of mechanically intensive or strategically/tactically complex games. Tell people to welp ships in vastly unfavourable circumstances. Tell people that there's only a single correct way to play in a sandbox that offers varied choices. If anyone actually manages to do anything remotely competent or shows any sign of commitment or researches their environment, call them autistic.
Seems to be working well so far. |
Tisiphone Dira
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
561
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Posted - 2015.12.27 16:43:53 -
[7] - Quote
Have aura gank em and taunt them early on to cut the wheat from the chaff, then focus all resources on the wheat. |
Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
473
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Posted - 2015.12.27 16:46:22 -
[8] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:Since TMC's editor in chief will be writing an article soon about player retention strategies and I personally have wondered about it for the longest time - what are strictly speaking the most effective ways to retain players?
And we're not just talking about newbies fresh off the clone table we're talking all players including long time vets.
Personally I don't find the game very engaging any more, personal goals have almost all been reached and I'm finding other games more entertaining. Fleets formed to kill towers don't excite me, nor does endless station game bullshit. I certainly could grind for more ISK but that's still not what gets the blood pumping. Am I just a bitter vet? What kind of terrible death is this ennui and how can I escape it and by extension be retained by CCP?
In the end it is not the MMO designers that keep the players, it is the players that keep the players. In other words, in is not game design that retains players, it is personal bonds and mutual need.
A lot of games will spend months designing an expansion that high end guilds blast through in a couple days. Then the players start crying out for more entertainment. Eve does the sandbox thing where players are expected to entertain themselves, this helps for a while for the self motivated player, but no matter how much someone likes something too much of it get repetitive and old. A person that loves bananas, but eats bananas with every meal, will soon tire of bananas for a while.
So it always comes down to the personal bonds. You could go form new bonds, or try things you never engaged in.
Now it seems to me that you're actually reluctant to go play other games etc. Don't be. Go play them, have fun. There is no imperative to play EVE. If you enjoyed it, but got tired of it. Quit, you'll be back because you enjoyed it before you tired of it.
After a few months of not eating bananas, those bananas will start to look good again.
My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
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Tyrendian Biohazard
Ubiquitous Hurt The WeHurt Initiative
392
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Posted - 2015.12.27 17:27:18 -
[9] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote: Fleets formed to kill towers don't excite me, nor does endless station game bullshit. I certainly could grind for more ISK but that's still not what gets the blood pumping
I know I'll come off as snarky, but with that comment, and your signature, why is your killboard seem to be filled with nothing but tower kills and large fleets?
If you don't like it, don't do it? Or is there something more that is keeping you in Razor/null that you can't live without?
I had the same mentality when I lived in null. I was a line member doing those fleet, but wanted something more. I left to strike out on my own and have been 100% better off because of it. Frankly, had I stayed in the alliance, I doubt I'd still be playing today.
My twitch stream to help new players. CEO of New Hurt: UHURT New Pilot Training Initiative.
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Max Muni
Muni Corp
6
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Posted - 2015.12.27 17:31:48 -
[10] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:Caleb Seremshur wrote:what are strictly speaking the most effective ways to retain players? Honestly I am starting to think the most effective thing they can do is stop taking advice from the playerbase.
This is actually a good idea because most the players (including myself) don't have a clue about balance. It's always what they think will help their personal play styles.
there's really no point to these threads, although they're fun to troll in.
It's fully understood that this game is just a place holder until Star Citizen is finished... The space game community knows it, CCP knows it, it's just the full time diehards that don't know it yet. |
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Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
7917
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Posted - 2015.12.27 17:38:18 -
[11] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:Caleb Seremshur wrote:what are strictly speaking the most effective ways to retain players? Honestly I am starting to think the most effective thing they can do is stop taking advice from the playerbase.
This. Right after they sack most of the management.
Gÿ+
The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'Hodor'.
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Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9710
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Posted - 2015.12.27 19:45:28 -
[12] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:Caleb Seremshur wrote:what are strictly speaking the most effective ways to retain players? Honestly I am starting to think the most effective thing they can do is stop taking advice from the playerbase. Are you sure?
If that had been the case, the door would be open, micro-transactions would be a lot more prevalent, blinks would still be thing, and a whole lot of other stuff that a majority of forumites pooped their collective pants over.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
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Xotcl Gaterau
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
5
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Posted - 2015.12.27 20:04:10 -
[13] - Quote
Iria Ahrens wrote:Caleb Seremshur wrote:Since TMC's editor in chief will be writing an article soon about player retention strategies and I personally have wondered about it for the longest time - what are strictly speaking the most effective ways to retain players?
And we're not just talking about newbies fresh off the clone table we're talking all players including long time vets.
Personally I don't find the game very engaging any more, personal goals have almost all been reached and I'm finding other games more entertaining. Fleets formed to kill towers don't excite me, nor does endless station game bullshit. I certainly could grind for more ISK but that's still not what gets the blood pumping. Am I just a bitter vet? What kind of terrible death is this ennui and how can I escape it and by extension be retained by CCP? In the end it is not the MMO designers that keep the players, it is the players that keep the players. In other words, in is not game design that retains players, it is personal bonds and mutual need. A lot of games will spend months designing an expansion that high end guilds blast through in a couple days. Then the players start crying out for more entertainment. Eve does the sandbox thing where players are expected to entertain themselves, this helps for a while for the self motivated player, but no matter how much someone likes something too much of it get repetitive and old. A person that loves bananas, but eats bananas with every meal, will soon tire of bananas for a while. So it always comes down to the personal bonds. You could go form new bonds, or try things you never engaged in. Now it seems to me that you're actually reluctant to go play other games etc. Don't be. Go play them, have fun. There is no imperative to play EVE. If you enjoyed it, but got tired of it. Quit, you'll be back because you enjoyed it before you tired of it. After a few months of not eating bananas, those bananas will start to look good again.
I like bananas.
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HeXxploiT
Big Diggers Get Off My Lawn
207
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Posted - 2015.12.27 21:33:13 -
[14] - Quote
1:True sandbox.
2:Freedom and ability to choose going it alone or joining a vast armada to achieve great things.
(If either the ability to go it alone to achieve great things or the ability of large groups to achieve even greater things is stifled, interest wains. It's a fine balance and these are truly the things that make eve great. |
Otso Bakarti
Filial Pariahs
593
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Posted - 2015.12.27 21:39:45 -
[15] - Quote
In a sense...after a fashion....I think where games get derailed is in getting confused about who the player base really is. It's widely known, for instance, since WoW's famous Panda Meltdown, the gaming world was infiltrated by WoW Refugees who take over the games community devices - such as forums - to agitate for their new home to be converted into their idea of what WoW should have been. We've not been immune to that. (Remember: "gank" is a WoW term, not an EVE term.)
Certain factions in EVE have taken it over is a result of EVE attempting to move toward the all-important (because some guy in Japan did a study) MT/F2P model. EVE has attempted to avoid the free to play, and pay to win aspects, but CCP is not innocent in trying to pander to an imagined PvP majority which in truth does not exist, and in this case, so trivializes the meta-features of the game, we did lose a tremendous amount of our serious, experienced players who just aren't coming back. Replaced by: if you don't know by now, you shouldn't be in this conversation.
The OP, however, does pose an interesting question, and my tendency falls in the "Hey, it's CCP's game. Surprise us!" camp, with the caveat we don't get minority player input that amounts to pandering to a thin minority (as is the present case). Also, I'd advise CCP to avoid jumping on the bandwagon and making the focus "Using mom's VISA to buy stuff here and there for five bucks" approach the rest of the gaming world has chosen.
As always, the true holding power of the game is the developers' ability to create a game. This talent isn't widely shared. These sorts of minds cost a bit more than the standard, competent computer science grad student just out of university. So, getting this has everything to do with what is a company willing to pay its talent. (I won't comment on the employment conditions with regard to this issue.) At this point is the nuff said.
I'm always playing the programmer. When I'm no longer playing the programmer who's presented something and said, "Beat this!" then, I'm pushing pixels around. That gets boring fast. Pay your talent, or lose your talent. Lose you talent, lose the game.
There just isn't anything that can be said!
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voetius
Quiet Days in Clichy
404
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Posted - 2015.12.27 22:05:38 -
[16] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Paranoid Loyd wrote:Caleb Seremshur wrote:what are strictly speaking the most effective ways to retain players? Honestly I am starting to think the most effective thing they can do is stop taking advice from the playerbase. Are you sure? If that had been the case, the door would be open, micro-transactions would be a lot more prevalent, blinks would still be thing, and a whole lot of other stuff that a majority of forumites pooped their collective pants over. Mr Epeen
Really! I usually agree with your opinions Mr Epeen but that is a non sequitur. I have to agree with Loyd that CCP should follow their own vision. Programmers are not in short supply, good game design is a lot harder to achieve.
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Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9711
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Posted - 2015.12.27 22:40:18 -
[17] - Quote
voetius wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:Paranoid Loyd wrote:Caleb Seremshur wrote:what are strictly speaking the most effective ways to retain players? Honestly I am starting to think the most effective thing they can do is stop taking advice from the playerbase. Are you sure? If that had been the case, the door would be open, micro-transactions would be a lot more prevalent, blinks would still be thing, and a whole lot of other stuff that a majority of forumites pooped their collective pants over. Mr Epeen Really! I usually agree with your opinions Mr Epeen but that is a non sequitur. I have to agree with Loyd that CCP should follow their own vision. Programmers are not in short supply, good game design is a lot harder to achieve. I'm not disagreeing with Loyd. I'm just putting it out there that most of the people who hit like on his post are probably some of the most vocal whiners for change. And I bet I can find every one of the people who will agree with him in a post in one of the threadnaughts crying at what CCP is proposing or has proposed.
The reality with this player base is, "Just let CCP do what they want. As long as it's what I want".
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
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Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1973
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Posted - 2015.12.27 23:04:12 -
[18] - Quote
Not sure about that, some CCP teams (most do well) came up with some stupid changes recently like the new explorer interface, the new camera modes, manual flight fantasies ... showing a lack of understanding, how the game works. There needs to be a corrective measure by the player base.
I'm my own NPC alt.
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Paranoid Loyd
7927
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Posted - 2015.12.28 01:48:13 -
[19] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Are you sure? No, I would have worded it differently if I was sure.
I can say with a fair bit of confidence there is a situation going on where there are too many cooks in the kitchen and the food is starting to suck because everyone wants their food flavored differently and the result is a product no one wants to eat.
I don't know how to fix it, the main reason I don't is because I don't have access to the information I would need to be confident about what I am doing. This situation is no different for anyone besides those employed at CCP.
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!
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Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
479
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Posted - 2015.12.28 03:59:09 -
[20] - Quote
voetius wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:Paranoid Loyd wrote:Caleb Seremshur wrote:what are strictly speaking the most effective ways to retain players? Honestly I am starting to think the most effective thing they can do is stop taking advice from the playerbase. Are you sure? If that had been the case, the door would be open, micro-transactions would be a lot more prevalent, blinks would still be thing, and a whole lot of other stuff that a majority of forumites pooped their collective pants over. Mr Epeen Really! I usually agree with your opinions Mr Epeen but that is a non sequitur. I have to agree with Loyd that CCP should follow their own vision. Programmers are not in short supply, good game design is a lot harder to achieve.
Burn Jita? Sometimes the devs fall in love with a vision that doesn't help the game. So I don't think they should ignore the players, and I don't think players should run roughshod over the devs. There should be this static tension between the playerbase and the devs, which is what we've had for a while.
So I try to avoid blanket statements one way or the other. Devs need the freedom to imagine a better game for us to play, but they still need to listen to the players, and they do. But not too closely, because there is a lot of irrelevant whining and shortsighted munchkin crafting.
Every fanfest they show us player activity graphs. And a lot of their presentations address how they modified a certain mod or ship because people were avoiding it. So they listen to the players, but not our words, they listen to our actions. And if everyone starts favoring a given ship, and it shows up in the graphs that the usage is out of line, then expect said ship to be nerfed. >> t3 dessies?
My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
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Caleb Seremshur
Gladiators of Rage RAZOR Alliance
721
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Posted - 2015.12.28 07:13:21 -
[21] - Quote
Doc Fury wrote:Paranoid Loyd wrote:Caleb Seremshur wrote:what are strictly speaking the most effective ways to retain players? Honestly I am starting to think the most effective thing they can do is stop taking advice from the playerbase. This. Right after they sack most of the management.
I'm more interested in ways for players to actually help other people stay interested. For example through the act of 'doing' and then finding things that get in the way nonsensically and removing those eg 24hr cooldowns on jumpclones, clone insurance prices, etc.
If the devs need to be doing anything it is identifying player made initiatives and then enacting changes to compliment these things.
The popularity of NPSI fleets and PFR might be a recognition for the desire for some more NPC space in null, it might be something else entirely.
All I know is this: condensing farming through doubling the number of anomolies in sov null did nothing to make people undock more. It did nothing.
Veteran and solo/small gang PVP advocate.
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Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
735
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Posted - 2015.12.28 08:09:38 -
[22] - Quote
Honestly, I think if there is anything to take away from this is the realization that both players and devs are guilty of bad ideas. For one thing, devs can see things and have access to things we can't see nor have access to. And, while this is true, players by a long margin far outnumber devs, giving them a potentially massive bit of clairvoyance in the game world that devs could never hope to replicate. Problem is the aforementioned trait they both share.
To that end, if there's any part of Loyd's original answer that I agree with, it is that I'm leaning more towards the fact that I think I would trust the devs over we players to drive the bus. Most players, including myself, are often heavily biased when making suggestions, informing our opinions, and giving CCP our feedback. Devs have far few reasons to be so biased and, as such, are less likely to steer the game in a lopsided direction -- their are not completely innocent from creating game design that heavily favors one group of players over another, but I think their hands are quite a bit cleaner so to speak than ours would be if we had more control or say than we do now.
My 2 ISK.
"Tomahawks?"
"----in' A, right?"
"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."
"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."
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Nana Skalski
Poseidaon
1671
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Posted - 2015.12.28 13:24:51 -
[23] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:Goons don't attract quality. KarmaFleet is full of below average cheap labour only here because of bread and circus ......
Bread and circus will bring millions, while very wise and intelectually sophisticated entertainment will attract only few people that will be boasting before empty tribunes.
There must be a bit of everything. And I think there is.
( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ GòáGò¼GòªGò¼Gòú - my sandcastle
( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ <=X - my yacht
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Cidanel Afuran
Static-Noise Upholders
524
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Posted - 2015.12.28 17:47:30 -
[24] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:Honestly I am starting to think the most effective thing they can do is stop taking advice from the playerbase.
This...having worked as a software developer for years, your customer base as a rule has no clue what it wants. That's one of the first things you learn. |
Solecist Project
The Scope Gallente Federation
28918
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Posted - 2015.12.28 17:53:31 -
[25] - Quote
Cidanel Afuran wrote:Paranoid Loyd wrote:Honestly I am starting to think the most effective thing they can do is stop taking advice from the playerbase. This...having worked as a software developer for years, your customer base as a rule has no clue what it wants. That's one of the first things you learn. I had a "discussion" about this yesterday.
Dismissing the few intelligent, actually thoughtfull ones with realistic input ... ... because of the many who are clearly incapable of doing so ... ... is a rather bad decision.
Doesn't mean I *fully* disagree, but partly I do.
Alex Grison > If there was a bipartisan bill supporting cannabis use for arthritic pain, it would be Joint support for Joint support for joint support
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Solecist Project
The Scope Gallente Federation
28918
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Posted - 2015.12.28 17:55:48 -
[26] - Quote
Nana Skalski wrote:Solecist Project wrote:Goons don't attract quality. KarmaFleet is full of below average cheap labour only here because of bread and circus ......
Bread and circus will bring millions, while very wise and intelectually sophisticated entertainment will attract only few people that will be boasting before empty tribunes. There must be a bit of everything. And I think there is. I don't disagree. We have room for all of them.
An issue arises, though, if the lesser intelligent act like they often do ... ... and demand more and more to be taken away from those who are smarter than them.
Tnat's reality ... and has been for many years in EVE.
Alex Grison > If there was a bipartisan bill supporting cannabis use for arthritic pain, it would be Joint support for Joint support for joint support
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Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
3868
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Posted - 2015.12.28 18:17:58 -
[27] - Quote
Bread and circuses are difficult and expensive to maintain. You have to make the bread and continuously supply content for your arena.
The trick is to get the masses to eat each other and derive entertainment from the violence. That's how EVE works. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2443
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Posted - 2015.12.28 18:24:28 -
[28] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Paranoid Loyd wrote:Caleb Seremshur wrote:what are strictly speaking the most effective ways to retain players? Honestly I am starting to think the most effective thing they can do is stop taking advice from the playerbase. This. Build the game they want to build, and retain the players that like what they produce.
Build the game who wants anyway? For all we know, the DEVS might want something but the people signing the paychecks says "IDGAF what it ends up like, I want more income" ...
You can only follow your dream so far when you are not the boss. |
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
738
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Posted - 2015.12.28 18:24:41 -
[29] - Quote
I suppose the bottom line is that Eve is still alive and, more importantly, still kicking. Even after over a decade of active service, it's still here and actually isn't showing it's age. That should mean something. It means someone is doing something right. So, when I see the occasional "Eve is dying," shenanigans on the forums, I tend to see that as no different than saying that we all are dying little by little everyday. Morbid as that sounds, the point is that it really means little and holds almost no real substance in the grand scheme of things.
Granted there are plenty of ways for both players and CCP alike to better retain players in game and even push to open the door a bit wider for future players. Either way, as long as we and CCP at least keep trucking, keep doing what we do best, Eve will be here for the foreseeable future. For one, while I hate that I wasn't here since day one, I'm glad I'm here now and don't have any plans to leave anytime soon. Working as intended, if you will.
"Tomahawks?"
"----in' A, right?"
"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."
"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2443
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Posted - 2015.12.28 18:26:27 -
[30] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:Bread and circuses are difficult and expensive to maintain. You have to make the bread and continuously supply content for your arena.
The trick is to get the masses to eat each other and derive entertainment from the violence. That's how EVE works.
Selling fights and selling bread are both very lucrative. You just have to accept the limitation of your products. |
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