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Moraguth
Amarr Rangers
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Posted - 2007.01.19 02:39:00 -
[1]
So we've all read the threads, and had our own opinions. Recently I read this thread This Thread and someone asked the question "what would happen..." I heard about a movie that had a similar basis: what would happen if all the mexicans just up and left one day (from southern california if i remember right) So we all have theories, I'm sure. On Principle, I hate the idea of people mining with 10 accounts on macros and getting real money for it all. But part of me has to think that the market might have a crash if all that cheap labor was all of a sudden gone. No more hoards of miners out there doing a job that (let's face it) not too many people want to do themselves. We all grasp the simple attributes of economics, but since my degree isn't that, I'm wondering if those of you out there who work in financial institutions or who have had a good education in economics could give your 'more or less' expert opinion? good game |
Menkaure
Amarr Vanitas Corp.
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Posted - 2007.01.19 02:46:00 -
[2]
There were (as far as i can tell, uncomfirmed) rumors that CCP banned 200 macroers just before revelations hit, and this, along with everyone buying up minerals for the new stuff in the patch caused the recent spike in lowend prices.
If you've not been paying attention pyerite is skyrocketing still and trit was doing the same until very recently, although the amount being sold doesn't/didn't appear to change that much.
Basically, lowends skyrocket, everything gets more expensive, newbs suffer.
In my (completely uneducated, guesswork) opinion, at least.
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Jehovah Cooper
Convergent Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.01.19 02:48:00 -
[3]
CCP can control the relevant variables to manage the price of minerals, so there is no reason to leave the economy dependent (if it was) on cheating and EULA violations. Short-term issues will be ironed out by the invisible hand of the market or by CCP themselves.
As an example with the last patch they made it easier for noobs to get t2 strip mining crystals for lower-end ore. They could also increase refining yields and do other things to get the supply of low-ends where they "want" it, if its not there.
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Benglada
Infinitus Odium Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.19 02:59:00 -
[4]
Trit would get rather expensive rather fast. ---------------------------
Originally by: Arkanor
0.0 is the Final Frontier. Bring money and friends.
Sig nerfz0r - maximum allowed siz0r is 24000 bytz0r. - Devil ([email protected]) Sig By Ortos |
Marcus TheMartin
Gallente Tuxedo.
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Posted - 2007.01.19 03:12:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Benglada Trit would get rather expensive rather fast.
Then Chribbia needs to get his butt in gear Best Dressed Corp of 2006 and 2007! -ISD Marcus Thinks Eve who knew!? |
smashsmash
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Posted - 2007.01.19 03:14:00 -
[6]
it seems like it is a prosperous business to sell isk for $$$. this is surprising to me because i can't imagine that many people buying isk to support all these sellers. i guess i underestimate the number of active players there are in the eve universe.
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HottieWitAbody
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Posted - 2007.01.19 03:16:00 -
[7]
POS spammage would take a hit without the freighters full of ice products coming out of the empire belts daily.
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Moraguth
Amarr Rangers
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Posted - 2007.01.19 04:14:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Jehovah Cooper CCP can control the relevant variables to manage the price of minerals, so there is no reason to leave the economy dependent (if it was) on cheating and EULA violations. Short-term issues will be ironed out by the invisible hand of the market or by CCP themselves.
As an example with the last patch they made it easier for noobs to get t2 strip mining crystals for lower-end ore. They could also increase refining yields and do other things to get the supply of low-ends where they "want" it, if its not there.
I don't think CCP is ever going to change those values just so that the market won't crash, and i DO think it would crash. The market will stabilize itself... kinda. I think big alliances would be just fine with it cause they have their own industrial backbone. I think this would be alot like the depression, where the rich don't feel it or understand it so much, but us little guys really get hurt.
good game |
Hellspawn01
Amarr Imperial Shipment
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Posted - 2007.01.19 04:27:00 -
[9]
Players dictate the prices, nobody else. Dont blame them for selling it, blame yourself for supporting them. How can you prove that you buy macroŠed minerals? You cant.
Ship lovers click here |
J Valkor
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Posted - 2007.01.19 04:33:00 -
[10]
I hate the idea of Macro Miners. I also don't want to pay 500 million for a Raven.
Tough call.
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SSgt Sniper
Gallente Zekarus Ltd.
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Posted - 2007.01.19 04:36:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Hellspawn01 Players dictate the prices, nobody else. Dont blame them for selling it, blame yourself for supporting them. How can you prove that you buy macroŠed minerals? You cant.
Since I mined all my own mins, with the exception of 0.0 mins, I feel confident I can say it (since I doubt macros last long out there). ---------
Representing all the casual gamers happily living in Empire, that want NO PART of your 0.0 annoyances.
However, I do not represent my corp. We vote first. |
gfldex
Gallente Dark-Rising Fallen Souls
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Posted - 2007.01.19 08:06:00 -
[12]
A few words here. You assume that low mins are harvested by miners. In my experience most of the trit and pyerite comes from loot. I am a bit low on trit some times when I operate in empire and have to mine a bit to fill that gap.
In 0.0 nobody is mining trit. BS loot got so much minerals that there is simply no need. In addition you can find hauler spawns with up to 100M trit. After you got one you are fine for weeks if you use that by yourself.
You further assume that macro miners got a significant share on the market. Nobody ever provided any numbers that back that claim.
As long as nobody proves (numbers!) me wrong I will take the harmfull effect of macro miners on the market as a myth.
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Killde
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Posted - 2007.01.19 08:26:00 -
[13]
You'd be surprised how much trit 6 covetors and 2 haulers can put into the market when working 24/7. But yes I have noticed a spike in trit prices....
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gfldex
Gallente Dark-Rising Fallen Souls
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Posted - 2007.01.19 08:32:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Killde You'd be surprised how much trit 6 covetors and 2 haulers can put into the market when working 24/7. But yes I have noticed a spike in trit prices....
Numbers please! How many trit can 6 covetors produce in 23 hours taking into account that such a team has to change the belt/spot every 60 min?
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magnus amadeus
Amarr Hammer Of Light Astral Wolves
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Posted - 2007.01.19 08:44:00 -
[15]
Edited by: magnus amadeus on 19/01/2007 08:44:10
Originally by: gfldex
Originally by: Killde You'd be surprised how much trit 6 covetors and 2 haulers can put into the market when working 24/7. But yes I have noticed a spike in trit prices....
Numbers please! How many trit can 6 covetors produce in 23 hours taking into account that such a team has to change the belt/spot every 60 min?
Lets just stay conservative and say a covetor will mine 2 mil trit (very low-ball) per hour... 6 covetors would mine 276 mil trit per day, almost 2 bil trit a week.
_________________________________________________ Never argue with an idiot, they drag you down to their level and beat you down with experience. |
Xendie
Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2007.01.19 08:51:00 -
[16]
imagine the serverload decrease if those 10k something macrominers and macroratters were gone.
Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Quote: jake sisko > its f-e's bob dev alt making lag
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gfldex
Gallente Dark-Rising Fallen Souls
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Posted - 2007.01.19 15:25:00 -
[17]
Originally by: magnus amadeus
Lets just stay conservative and say a covetor will mine 2 mil trit (very low-ball) per hour... 6 covetors would mine 276 mil trit per day, almost 2 bil trit a week.
A quick look on the market shows that the average volume for trit traded in The Forge is about 4B per day. We dont know how much of that is reselling but anyway it means that 14 macro miner teams would last out to control the biggest market we got in eve. If we extend that to all regoins we would need around 100 macro miners to control the whole trit market in EvE. With 200 macro miners we would have a insane overproduction. My numbers are by far not exact but they show that your assumption auf 2B trit per week has to be heavyly wrong.
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Kaaii
Caldari Equilibrium LLC United Confederation of Corporations
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Posted - 2007.01.19 16:01:00 -
[18]
With myself, and my two other acts...
Both have covetors and t2 mining capability, the 3rd act is strickly hauling. I spent last nite watching tv, while mining only veld. At the end of the nite, I and just over 12mil trit, processed at a 50% station with perfect refine, and high standings.
Just a bit over 4 hours total time. Double that for "character" hours. So 8 hours equals 12mil trit. not counting the hauler time as it did not contribute to the actual ore pulled in.
34-(6)mil trit possible in 24 hours (less for DT)
This makes 29.4 people mining nothing but veld for 23 hours a day, capable of 1 billion trit, per day. Time lost changing belts, moving within or other misc non-productive tasks not used in these numbers.
So, while its theoretically possible do get a bil trit from a low miner count, the actual "doing" of that, would be very daunting, and down right madness...
Trading 101
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altambra
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Posted - 2007.01.19 16:06:00 -
[19]
IIRC the trit price is capped around 3 isk by NPCs selling shuttles.
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Roshan longshot
Gallente Ordos Humanitas
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Posted - 2007.01.19 16:06:00 -
[20]
When missions were introduced into the game, minning became somthing you tried not to do.
Which opened the door to the macro miner. If they all got booted, then ore prices would sky rocket. 30isk/unit of trit anyone?
Free-form Professions, ensure no limetations on professions. Be a trader, fighter, industialist, researcher, hunter pirate or mixture of them all.
[i]As read from the original box.
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gfldex
Gallente Dark-Rising Fallen Souls
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Posted - 2007.01.19 16:10:00 -
[21]
Originally by: altambra IIRC the trit price is capped around 3 isk by NPCs selling shuttles.
Buy a few thousand shuttles per day in the same station and look what happens to the price.
http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/gfldex/no-ctrl-q.jpg Signature filesize exceeds max limit of 24000 bytes. Mail us if you have questions -Eldo
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Kaaii
Caldari Equilibrium LLC United Confederation of Corporations
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Posted - 2007.01.19 16:12:00 -
[22]
With myself, and my two other acts...
Both have covetors and t2 mining capability, the 3rd act is strickly hauling. I spent last nite watching tv, while mining only veld. At the end of the nite, I and just over 12mil trit, processed at a 50% station with perfect refine, and high standings.
Just a bit over 4 hours total time. Double that for "character" hours. So 8 hours equals 12mil trit. not counting the hauler time as it did not contribute to the actual ore pulled in.
34-(6)mil trit possible in 24 hours (less for DT)
This makes 29.4 people mining nothing but veld for 23 hours a day, capable of 1 billion trit, per day. Time lost changing belts, moving within or other misc non-productive tasks not used in these numbers.
So, while its theoretically possible do get a bil trit from a low miner count, the actual "doing" of that, would be very daunting, and down right madness...
/edit
I would also speculate that while a market history is a rough barometer of trit traded, its hardly indicative of trit mined per day. "Most" manufactures mine themselves, or pay miners directly for there mins, so I think this never even sees the market screen. What I feel it represnts is the "impulse" buys of mfg ppl not wanting/waiting for there mins to be mined/delivered. I myself do this on occasions, but in the market now a days you can't compete making things by purchasing "all" your minerals on the market...
Trading 101
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Ather Ialeas
Amarr Karjala Inc. Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.01.19 16:39:00 -
[23]
My quesstimations:
1 month: Tritanium price goes up 35-100% Midends go up 20% Highends stay the same or even drop a bit more. Why? Saturation and simple "Oh noes I need pyerite better sell my zydrine to get them now while it's cheap!"
2 months: Tritanium price skyrockets +300% Midends go up 35-100% Highends turn into extremely contrasted subcategory of minerals; one goes very high up, one goes down, one stays in the middle. Why? Saturation of cheapest minerals goes down causing the price to skyrocket while midends rebound back from the hoarding situation of month earlier. Highends get contrasted because there's bound to be more need for one of them specifically than the two others (just to clarify, highends are zydrine, megacyte, morphite) and as such people start trading the two cheaper highends to the one expensive highend.
These two occurences (subcategory price crashes, subcategory price skyrockets) will repeat in an oscillative behaviour until they balance to some manageable level. Overall 0.0 miners will get shafted since the total median value of minerals will go down due to highends dropping while empire miners will get richer than ever before.
This is just what I think would happen.
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Soulita
Gallente Inner Core
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Posted - 2007.01.19 16:51:00 -
[24]
"What if the Macro Miners were gone...?"
That would be good.
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gfldex
Gallente Dark-Rising Fallen Souls
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Posted - 2007.01.19 16:55:00 -
[25]
Edited by: gfldex on 19/01/2007 16:52:55 1) New ships made it into the game. Everybody wanted one and there was need for a lot low mins.
2) New regions made it into the game. Ppl went to Jita to buy loads of low mins to build outposts.
3) Ppl started to hunt the new rats in the new regions. They contain way more zyd compared to mega.
4) ASCN liquidated large amounts of high mins to buy ships and mods in empire. (Not proven)
5) The bob killboard showed us that ASCN lost 30-100 BS _per_day_ over several weeks. Many ships had to be build and thus there was need for low mins. (if they dont got the mins in reserves)
6) Trader increased the price raise artificial. (happens all the time)
7) RA took cache back and that's a miners heaven. More high mins made it into the market. (not proven)
8) Psychology (that's where prices come from after all)
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Moraguth
Amarr Rangers
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Posted - 2007.01.20 01:51:00 -
[26]
You have to admit that macroers or farmers have a big impact on the market. Anyone who can flood the market that much can set whatever price they want to sell it all.
good game |
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