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Droidster
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
114
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Posted - 2015.12.29 21:37:06 -
[1] - Quote
Back in the old days the hub system was Yulai, which was neutral, not controlled by any of the four factions. Factional space was roughly equidistant from Yulai. Yulai was like Jita is now, with many pilots camping and trading.
Then, CCP decided it would try to stop this and what they did was cut many of the key links to Yulai. Not only did this make travel more time consuming, it had the effect of shifting the hub to Jita, Caldari space being most populated. So, what CCP was trying to do, force players to spread out completely failed and instead the whole system became imbalanced because now the hub favored Caldari-space.
To quantify the imbalance, take for example the number of jumps from each of the 3 starter player systems to Jita:
Caldari: 3 3 3 Amarr: 9 11 11 Gallente: 12 12 13 Minmatar: 12 15 18
Not exactly fair is it? Want to play a Minmatar character in Minmatar space? Sorry, you are 18 jumps from the market hub where you need to go to buy stuff.
Telling players: just move to Caldari space is dumb. That is not fair forcing players to move to Caldari space to have reasonable access to the hub. It is inherently unfair to have the hub in the space of one of the four factions. That is why Yulai was the central system in the first place! It was neutral.
This imbalance affects the game in many ways: travel times from different areas, the way standings affect the game, corporate office locations, agent choice, etc.
At the time the change occurred I was based in Alentene, 3 jumps from Yulai, and in Gallente space. After the change I was 11 jumps from Jita and had to move because it was not practical to be so far away from where I doing trading and buying. This same consideration has forced many players to crowd into Caldari space, away from agents and other faction-specific resources they would rather be near.
The whole cut-off-Yulai idea has proven to be a FAILURE. It completely failed to achieve the objective that the developers announced it was intended to do. This FAILED change should be reversed and Yulai should be restored as a neutral central point for all the factions.
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SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1394
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Posted - 2015.12.29 21:41:28 -
[2] - Quote
Droidster wrote:
Not exactly fair is it? Want to play a Minmatar character in Minmatar space? Sorry, you are 18 jumps from the market hub where you need to go to buy stuff.
Confirming that it is impossible to buy things in Rens, Hek, Amarr, or Dodixie.
Also, that all great ideas are contingent on hyperbole bordering on dishonesty.
There could be some merit in doing something to promote more localized markets, but bringing back the Yulai superhub? Lol, no.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2863
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Posted - 2015.12.29 21:42:38 -
[3] - Quote
Yulai is still real, I was docked there about an hour ago. |
Celthric Kanerian
Ascendance Of New Eden Workers Trade Federation
575
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Posted - 2015.12.29 21:45:03 -
[4] - Quote
Atleast Amarr has Amarr... |
Paranoid Loyd
7981
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Posted - 2015.12.29 21:47:47 -
[5] - Quote
http://e.lvme.me/pzv5j7l.jpg
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!
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Droidster
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
114
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Posted - 2015.12.29 22:04:15 -
[6] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote: There could be some merit in doing something to promote more localized markets, but bringing back the Yulai superhub?
I completely disagree with this.
First of all, Yulai was no different than Jita is now, except that it was equally accessible to the factions, a much fairer and more beneficial (to the players) arrangement.
Your idea that we need to "promote localized markets" is EXACTLY THE SAME BLUNDER that CCP made when it cut off Yulai (without even getting player feedback at the time). That is exactly what CCP said when they cut the links: "this will cause regional markets to grow". Well, guess what? THEY DIDN'T. Not only did they not grow, they shrunk and hub market trade shrunk too and goods became more expensive overall. Any trader could have told them this would happen. You know Oursalaert used to be a huge hub pre-Jita, and when the links were cut it shrunk, and the same thing happened to all the regional hubs. They didn't grow, they decreased.
We do NOT need to promote localized markets. That is NOT a solution to improving trade. Speaking as a trader I can tell you there is only one way to improve trade: make the network faster to traverse, and the way to do that is to have a central hub like Yulai used to be, with good links to all the regions.
Cutting links and making travel harder simply balkanizes trade; it makes things more expensive and reduces the quantities of goods available. From a trade and manufacturing perspective there is no benefit to restricting travel, it just makes things worse for everybody, and that was exactly the effect of the Yulai cutoff, it made things worse for everyone.
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
2946
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Posted - 2015.12.29 23:03:31 -
[7] - Quote
You dont 'need' to trade in jita and sometimes its better not to.
And with the way the market works it couldn't be worse for everyone. For example, I bet the caldari population, or most the players as you say, probably found it beneficial.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1395
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Posted - 2015.12.29 23:29:10 -
[8] - Quote
Droidster wrote:
Cutting links and making travel harder simply balkanizes trade; it makes things more expensive and reduces the quantities of goods available.
Good.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4232
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Posted - 2015.12.30 01:02:15 -
[9] - Quote
Droidster wrote:SurrenderMonkey wrote: There could be some merit in doing something to promote more localized markets, but bringing back the Yulai superhub?
I completely disagree with this. First of all, Yulai was no different than Jita is now, except that it was equally accessible to the factions, a much fairer and more beneficial (to the players) arrangement. Your idea that we need to "promote localized markets" is EXACTLY THE SAME BLUNDER that CCP made when it cut off Yulai (without even getting player feedback at the time). That is exactly what CCP said when they cut the links: "this will cause regional markets to grow". Well, guess what? THEY DIDN'T. Not only did they not grow, they shrunk and hub market trade shrunk too and goods became more expensive overall. Any trader could have told them this would happen, but nobody asked us before the links were cut. You know Oursalaert used to be a huge hub pre-Jita, and when the links were cut it shrunk, and the same thing happened to all the regional hubs. They didn't grow, they decreased. We do NOT need to promote localized markets. That is NOT a solution to improving trade. Speaking as a trader I can tell you there is only one way to improve trade: make the network faster to traverse, and the way to do that is to have a central hub like Yulai used to be, with good links to all the regions. Cutting links and making travel harder simply balkanizes trade; it makes things more expensive and reduces the quantities of goods available. From a trade and manufacturing perspective there is no benefit to restricting travel, it just makes things worse for everybody, and that was exactly the effect of the Yulai cutoff, it made things worse for everyone.
Got any actual data to back this up. Last time you brought this up in 2013 you argued that Yulai was not as big as Jita is now because now they have to close JitaGÇÖs gates during high traffic, but my first thought wasGǪhow many players were there in 2004 vs. 2013? Maybe the problem of Jita is due to a larger population and not just it being a super hubGǪin which case decentralizing trade would be the solution, not doubling down and moving Jita, Amarr and Dodixie to Yulai.
As of right now, Jita accounts for about 36.5% of the trade in HS according to eve-market data.com. Amarr clocks in at 22.7%, with Dodixie and Rens each coming in at 19.9% and 19.1% respectively. So while Jita is big, I find it hard to believe that the other trade hubs have actually shrunk.
Also, one giant trade hub is fine if we want to try and get GÇ£one priceGÇ¥ for everything. However, the current decentralized trade system allows for arbitrage opportunities. And a central hub will also likely reduce profitability as well. One big trade hub means more competition and more competition translates into lower prices.
As for Brain in the BoxGǪyou mean that thing that fucks up the route settings all the time? Last night our fleet essentially bifurcated, one group took route A (32 jumps) the other took route B (32 jumps) and no, it was not safer vs. shorter as people in both groups had them set to shorter. It seems it decided to pick randomly between the starting point and destination. I think, if it canGÇÖt handle such a basic function, that it still needs work.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4233
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Posted - 2015.12.30 01:09:13 -
[10] - Quote
Droidster wrote:
Cutting links and making travel harder simply balkanizes trade; it makes things more expensive and reduces the quantities of goods available. From a trade and manufacturing perspective there is no benefit to restricting travel, it just makes things worse for everybody, and that was exactly the effect of the Yulai cutoff, it made things worse for everyone.
From the stand point of economic efficiency you are correct. Having fewer trade restrictions will result in more competition, lower prices, and so forth. However, there is more to this game than just the economy and making it work as efficiently as possible. In fact, I would argue that it is the job of the players to try and do that, not CCP. If you see an inefficiency then find a way to solve that problem.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Samillian
Angry Mustellid Decayed Orbit
1064
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Posted - 2015.12.30 01:17:21 -
[11] - Quote
Droidster wrote:
Cutting links and making travel harder simply balkanizes trade; it makes things more expensive and reduces the quantities of goods available.
Actually as far as I can tell cutting those links and making travel harder opened up opportunities for traders, local manufacturers and those that prey on them. Trying to turn back the clock in an attempt to recapture some "golden age" that probably never really existed in the first place seems counter productive.
If anything I can't help but feel that the process of regional separation was not carried far enough. Many of the regional markets of the present day still suffer somewhat from price homogenization simply because it is still relatively quick and simple to ship to and from Jita as long as fairly basic precautions are taken and common sense applied.
Not supported.
NBSI shall be the whole of the Law
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Cristl
277
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Posted - 2015.12.30 01:41:06 -
[12] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:As for Brain in the BoxGǪyou mean that thing that fucks up the route settings all the time? Last night our fleet essentially bifurcated, one group took route A (32 jumps) the other took route B (32 jumps) and no, it was not safer vs. shorter as people in both groups had them set to shorter. It seems it decided to pick randomly between the starting point and destination. I think, if it canGÇÖt handle such a basic function, that it still needs work. The autopilot has always done that - randomly choose between two equivalent routes
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Kenrailae
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
536
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Posted - 2015.12.30 02:05:47 -
[13] - Quote
Back to Yulai...... Nah, can't really see a reason to go back to square 1. There are just too many other tools, be it other trade hubs, evepraisal, contracts, red frog, jump freighters.... the specific location of the super hub is not exceedingly important these days.
Blow up Jita..... Well... yes, I could get behind this.
The Law is a point of View
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4237
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Posted - 2015.12.30 03:52:24 -
[14] - Quote
Cristl wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:As for Brain in the BoxGǪyou mean that thing that fucks up the route settings all the time? Last night our fleet essentially bifurcated, one group took route A (32 jumps) the other took route B (32 jumps) and no, it was not safer vs. shorter as people in both groups had them set to shorter. It seems it decided to pick randomly between the starting point and destination. I think, if it canGÇÖt handle such a basic function, that it still needs work. The autopilot has always done that - randomly choose between two equivalent routes
In 8 years I have never seen it this bad.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
2426
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Posted - 2015.12.30 04:41:37 -
[15] - Quote
Not a single one of my characters has been to Jita this year. And yet somehow I get by just fine. Maybe I'm doing it wrong?
(Coincidentally, I find myself in Yulai on a semi-regular basis. It just happens that way.) |
Kagura Nikon
Bon Jovian Drifters Did he say Jump
2129
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Posted - 2015.12.30 08:47:56 -
[16] - Quote
Droidster wrote:[quote=SurrenderMonkey]
Cutting links and making travel harder simply balkanizes trade; it makes things more expensive and reduces the quantities of goods available. From a trade and manufacturing perspective there is no benefit to restricting travel, it just makes things worse for everybody, and that was exactly the effect of the Yulai cutoff, it made things worse for everyone.
there is the problem.. you are thinking on what is best for commerce. But what matter is what is good for the game iteractions, and regionalized markets create a better sociological scenario because create differences, differences create potential for change and for conflict.
Efficiency is not what you want always in a game. Otherwise why not make any purchase instntly deliverable at any station you are in? In real world we have Fed ex for that.. why not in eve? Because although it is efficient, it is a bad gameplay.
"If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!"
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Kagura Nikon
Bon Jovian Drifters Did he say Jump
2129
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Posted - 2015.12.30 08:49:37 -
[17] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Cristl wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:As for Brain in the BoxGǪyou mean that thing that fucks up the route settings all the time? Last night our fleet essentially bifurcated, one group took route A (32 jumps) the other took route B (32 jumps) and no, it was not safer vs. shorter as people in both groups had them set to shorter. It seems it decided to pick randomly between the starting point and destination. I think, if it canGÇÖt handle such a basic function, that it still needs work. The autopilot has always done that - randomly choose between two equivalent routes In 8 years I have never seen it this bad.
ooooo god forbid now fleet members need to pay attention on the game instead of just being drones. That is not even bad for the game.
"If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!"
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4253
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Posted - 2015.12.31 05:30:36 -
[18] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Cristl wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:As for Brain in the BoxGǪyou mean that thing that fucks up the route settings all the time? Last night our fleet essentially bifurcated, one group took route A (32 jumps) the other took route B (32 jumps) and no, it was not safer vs. shorter as people in both groups had them set to shorter. It seems it decided to pick randomly between the starting point and destination. I think, if it canGÇÖt handle such a basic function, that it still needs work. The autopilot has always done that - randomly choose between two equivalent routes In 8 years I have never seen it this bad. ooooo god forbid now fleet members need to pay attention on the game instead of just being drones. That is not even bad for the game.
Yes, how bad that makes people to expect a built in feature to work as it has for years.
On the ignore list you go, troll.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Hopelesshobo
Tactical Nuclear Penguin's
526
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Posted - 2015.12.31 07:28:02 -
[19] - Quote
Droidster wrote: To quantify the imbalance, take for example the number of jumps from each of the 3 starter player systems to Jita:
Caldari: 3 3 3 Amarr: 9 11 11 Gallente: 12 12 13 Minmatar: 12 15 18
Not exactly fair is it? Want to play a Minmatar character in Minmatar space? Sorry, you are 18 jumps from the market hub where you need to go to buy stuff.
So when did CCP dictate where the major trade hubs would be once Yulai was closed for business? So before you raise your pitchfork and torch towards CCPs doorstep, maybe you should take a look at why they setup shop where they did to begin with.
Teckos Pech wrote: As for Brain in the BoxGǪyou mean that thing that fucks up the route settings all the time? Last night our fleet essentially bifurcated, one group took route A (32 jumps) the other took route B (32 jumps) and no, it was not safer vs. shorter as people in both groups had them set to shorter. It seems it decided to pick randomly between the starting point and destination. I think, if it canGÇÖt handle such a basic function, that it still needs work.
Question: Was everyone in the same ship and did everyone have the same insert agility skills here level? I'm curious if it's factoring in align time and warp speed at the individual level to create the fastest route for you to take in the ship you are currently in. I don't know, just a wild speculation, anytime it happens I've always just assumed that we had different autopilot settings somewhere. At which point someone just starts broadcasting the gates.
Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1732
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Posted - 2015.12.31 13:31:19 -
[20] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Cristl wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:As for Brain in the BoxGǪyou mean that thing that fucks up the route settings all the time? Last night our fleet essentially bifurcated, one group took route A (32 jumps) the other took route B (32 jumps) and no, it was not safer vs. shorter as people in both groups had them set to shorter. It seems it decided to pick randomly between the starting point and destination. I think, if it canGÇÖt handle such a basic function, that it still needs work. The autopilot has always done that - randomly choose between two equivalent routes In 8 years I have never seen it this bad.
I think you mean you've never seen it this inconvenient. Saying one equivalent route is bad and the other is good just makes no sense (a computer generated route is neither good nor evil - it just is).
I think the bifurcation issue is also more about convenience and less about morales / virtue. If I had to choose between coding the game to figure out who wants to travel together and letting the players simply and easily compare routes - I'd be in favor of the latter. If it's a group - then some is in charge. That person should be responsible for prventing the fleet from splitting up - not the game. |
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Linna Excel
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
249
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Posted - 2015.12.31 15:47:24 -
[21] - Quote
I'd like to lodge a complaint with the ministry of love for failing to properly and adequately burn Jita.
I can has blogging skills!
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4253
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Posted - 2015.12.31 17:54:10 -
[22] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Cristl wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:As for Brain in the BoxGǪyou mean that thing that fucks up the route settings all the time? Last night our fleet essentially bifurcated, one group took route A (32 jumps) the other took route B (32 jumps) and no, it was not safer vs. shorter as people in both groups had them set to shorter. It seems it decided to pick randomly between the starting point and destination. I think, if it canGÇÖt handle such a basic function, that it still needs work. The autopilot has always done that - randomly choose between two equivalent routes In 8 years I have never seen it this bad. I think you mean you've never seen it this inconvenient. Saying one equivalent route is bad and the other is good just makes no sense (a computer generated route is neither good nor evil - it just is). I think the bifurcation issue is also more about convenience and less about morales / virtue. If I had to choose between coding the game to figure out who wants to travel together and letting the players simply and easily compare routes - I'd be in favor of the latter. If it's a group - then some is in charge. That person should be responsible for prventing the fleet from splitting up - not the game.
No, I mean I have never seen a fleet essentially split in half when starting at the same location and travelling to the same destination. In the 8 years I have been playing it has not happened and I have been in many fleets travelling many jumps. Not at this level. And it would not be much of a problem if the player could all pick the same route, but you are not offered that option. The algorithm used in the past had no issues with this.
And randomly splitting up fleets due to an in-game bug is bullshit. How about instead of your ship aligning to the selected target it periodically aligns in some other random direction? Hey, it is up to you to make sure you ship is aligning correctly.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
9938
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Posted - 2016.01.01 01:05:50 -
[23] - Quote
Linna Excel wrote:I'd like to lodge a complaint with the ministry of love for failing to properly and adequately burn Jita.
I'd like to lodge a complaint with CCP for failing to properly and adequately eradicate Carrie-Anne Moss and/or Cat O'ninetails.
Got a HoleySheet1 corpse? I'll buy it for 200m!
Bumble's Space Log
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