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Ikar Kaltin
Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.22 00:47:00 -
[1]
As both sides know I am an Amarrian loyalist, and believe in the defence of the Empire, and thus respect what PIE are doing, from a purely Amarrian perspective.
However, I am still curious to how this conflict came about. Of course both sides know that EM attacked an Amarrian convoy within Amarrian space in what is considered an act of piracy by PIE. EM contest that this attack was the liberation of Republic citizens aboard the transport, whilst PIE have documents from the company who owned the transport proving hthey were slaves. EM claim to have this proof, but will not show it because they believe the loyalists will not believe it, and of course PIE will not accept the word of Matari pirates without proof.
While I was in EM space the otherday I had chance to confer upon this topic with the leaders of EM, and they told me if a truce was called by a neutral party they would be happy to share this evidence. So I ask my brothers in PIE to offer this truce to allow EM to present their proof upon this issue, and perhaps bring resolution to this conflict, which threatens to escelate beyond a defence of our Empire into a full blown inter-galactic war, with the Gallente and Caldari already becomming involved.
EM, you may not consider me neutral, and Im probably not, but I am as close to neutral who is offering to mediate these discussions, and I have an open mind to this is we stay on topic on the conflict, and not into general injustices of the Amarr against the Matari for the past god knows how many centuries. I would ask my brothers in PIE to allow EM to prove they are not the pirates they appear, as only through mediatin and friendship can the Amarr Empire and the Matari Republic grow together, and mutually acceptable agreements come about, intead of harderning the racial prejudices rampant amongst both races.
Heed my call EM and PIE, bring peace to the galaxy.
Ikar Kaltin.
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Gaven Lok'ri
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.01.22 03:10:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Gaven Lok''ri on 22/01/2007 03:07:06 First, I must say that I do not see why EM should need a truce to present evidence.
That said, I, personally, would be willing to consider peace with EM. For their word to be trusted after their previous acts against the Amarrian Empire, however, would require them to give proof that they were indeed interested in peace. It would require them to give proof that they understood that acts of war against other Empires are not to be tolerated.
In this case, what would be required is that any further actions against Amarrian shipping in Amarrian space would need to be disavowed and reparations would need to be paid for all Amarrian Empire ships and cargo destroyed or stolen in the EM raids to free slaves.
Once this is done, then EM would be in a position to do what it should have done in the first place. Pass their evidence on to the republic and in doing so allow the proper authorities to deal with the situation through the proper diplomatic channels. If their evidence is actually valid, then IHR would be punished accordingly under the terms international treaties that both Empires have signed. As these fines would most likely go to the republic, EM would have just donated the money payed in reparations to IHR to the republic. On the other hand, if the EM proof is found to be fallacious then they would have compensated IHR for their rash action and we could move forward towards a peaceful future.
Deus Vult! PIE Website Public Channel: 'PIE Public' |
Daram Thakk'ar
Minmatar 343rd Mining Division
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Posted - 2007.01.22 07:17:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Daram Thakk''ar on 22/01/2007 07:14:22 The burden of Proof lies on the accuser, not the accused. PIE are the ones accusing EM of attacking civilians, and declaring war over it. Thus, PIE are the ones carrying the burden of proving beyond any doubt thet the convoy was infact not carrying abducted Republic citizens.
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Ryas Nia
Minmatar Stormriders Fimbulwinter
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Posted - 2007.01.22 07:32:00 -
[4]
Dear lord.... It never stops amazing me how narrow minded you amarr are. EM were not the aggressors or even the sole people engaged in that combat. Fimbulwinter had just as many pilots, our communication and navigation systems were used, and we also provided the command structure. EM was there to help us, it was a JOINT operation.
When accusing matari loyalists of being criminals its always a good idea to look at the real ones first.
now if you will excuse me i have planets to bomb, temples to desecrate, and trade routs to disrupt.
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Gaven Lok'ri
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.01.22 07:41:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Gaven Lok''ri on 22/01/2007 07:39:11 If your understanding of who was the accuser and the aggressor in this situation was correct then your logic would apply.
However, what PIE accuses EM of is committing acts of war against Amarrian shipping. Regardless of whether those acts of war were spurred by an illegal act by IHR, a fact which IHR denies and EM has provided no proof other than their word for, the simple fact is that instead of going through diplomatic peaceful procedures EM invaded Amarrian space and destroyed an Amarrian Convoy with no warning or provocation.
They are the ones accusing IHR of having seized republic citizens. PIE is responding not to this accusation but to the action (which they themselves have admitted to publicly) of moving into Amarrian space and opening fire on Amarrian shipping.
If they have proof that is able to stand up in court that IHR's public statement that the slaves were not in their possession in contradiction of the international treaties between Amarr and Matari is false, then they should have used that proof peacefully in the first place rather than adding their own illegal actions to the ones they believed IHR had committed, yet seemingly had no conclusive proof for.
EM declared war on Amarr by attacking Amarrian shipping and in doing so left the ranks of republic loyalists and joined the ranks of the Matari factions who still consider themselves at war with Amarr. PIE's declaration of war was merely a formality in response to the prior unjustified acts of war against Amarr.
If EM wants peace they need merely to prove that they actually want peace with Amarr and are willing to do what it takes to maintain peace.
edit: And to the terrorist pilot: We already know your allegiance. Its the act of EM, as a formerly peaceful alliance, joining your butchery that is important.
An act of war by an entity at war is hardly news worthy. An act of war by a neutral entity, on the other hand, is a different story.
Deus Vult! PIE Website Public Channel: 'PIE Public' |
Ottom Ephesianos
Amarr Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.01.22 07:48:00 -
[6]
The issue at hand has more to do with the existence of Amarr ships carrying Minmatar republic citizens. There is no way to avoid reclamation of citizens belonging in the Republic either by will or war. An offer of such validation is directly object to the current Amarr religious doctrine which is to force salvation through slavery to all who are not Amarr. Because the Republic is by fact a rebellion by law given complete anonymity and by rights its own government: That legality also validates the question of whether or not slaves in the Amarr empire now are considered Amarr slaves as definition or enslaved Minmatar slaves. The second of these two definitions would mean that by Amarr empirical law goes against religious doctrine. The emperor would be the only power that could change doctrine to rectify the conundrum. Until such a time by law all citizens of Minmatar bloodline should be immediately excommunicated to the Republic. By religious doctrine the Amarr empire would cease all communications and invade the Republic in order to save the Minmatar race and reunite the saved slaves already in empire with the currently emancipated.
With no Emperor, what will you do Amarr? I know your pilots donÆt want to keep exhausting clone supplies. Neither do I.
--------------------------------- "Trust me I've done this before." Elite R. Ephesianos ---------------------------------
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Gaven Lok'ri
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.01.22 07:56:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Gaven Lok''ri on 22/01/2007 07:52:44 There is something called international law, you know.
I believe the relevant issue is covered in the Yoiul Conventions.
Though as your organization regularly ignores that there is an international treaty mandating and regulating peace between the republic and empire it is no surprise that you are not familiar with it.
Deus Vult! PIE Website Public Channel: 'PIE Public' |
Majaraw Awalabas
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.01.22 08:01:00 -
[8]
An attack on the Empire will be met by PIE.
Any delusions of justified cause show the depravity of the attackers.
For God, Empire and Amarr.
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.01.22 09:01:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Ikar Kaltin So I ask my brothers in PIE to offer this truce to allow EM to present their proof upon this issue, and perhaps bring resolution to this conflict, which threatens to escelate beyond a defence of our Empire into a full blown inter-galactic war, with the Gallente and Caldari already becomming involved.
I think the overwhelming response you have received from your "brothers in PIE" proves what their true intentions are, regarding a full-blown war.
-- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient now. |
Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.01.22 09:12:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon
I think the overwhelming response you have received from your "brothers in PIE" proves what their true intentions are, regarding a full-blown war.
We seek only peace.
You need only look at the statements made by Meklon in the run up to the war to see who the true aggressors are.
Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori
It's great being Amarr, ain't it? |
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Ottom Ephesianos
Amarr Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.01.22 09:27:00 -
[11]
Either war or peace could easily be attainted if PIE inc. came out with a formal statement on their stance regarding slavery and the defense of it. If they come out with a statement that they will stand aside while UshraÆKhan completes their mission to save the rest of the Minmatar people then peace is possible under counseled and sealed treaties. PIE inc. would also have to renounce their slaves.
In such a case the amount of slaves freed would be much smaller than Amarr EmpireÆs current situation and the amass of slave labor piling up there over centuries of opression. Personally I think it a wise decision though I know for a fact there are zealots within your own ranks who will see to it such a task was not easy.
In the end the wrath of the Empire would be on you PIE inc. and unless you fade into the grey, outcasts and void of Empirical ties you would be hunted by Amarr purists, you would be just like UÆK, without the need to continue fighting; A preferable condition and state of existence to be in by all accounts.
--------------------------------- "Trust me I've done this before." Elite R. Ephesianos ---------------------------------
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Octavinus Augustus
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Posted - 2007.01.22 09:27:00 -
[12]
Let me see if I can recap the situation.
EM has stated that they are interested in a truce in which to evaluate the various reasons and evidence that has led to the current EM vrs PIE war. For this reason they have talked to a third party regarding this.
PIE has responded with the terms we feel are necessary to accept such a truce. Various pilots may feel that these terms are fair or unfair. That is irrelevant. These are our terms - presented in a cordial manner. PIE, of course, see these terms as a generous offer for the truce requested by EM.
EM's various "allies" in U'K, Fimbulwinter and NMTZ has then proceeded to seek to spread discord and inflame the debate by various insults. Clearly their purpose here is to keep EM bound to the war they are involved in - no matter what the best interests of EM might be. Are these people true friends of EM?
To the leadership in EM, I have this to say: Will you respond to the terms put forward by PIE or will you rather listen to those that will have you stick to a course of war that is clearly not in your best interest?
Your actions in the present will surely have great impact on your future.
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Ottom Ephesianos
Amarr Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.01.22 09:34:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon
I think the overwhelming response you have received from your "brothers in PIE" proves what their true intentions are, regarding a full-blown war.
We seek only peace.
You need only look at the statements made by Meklon in the run up to the war to see who the true aggressors are.
This statement is not a direct response to our current white flag tease. Spelling it out is a much more effective strategy.
--------------------------------- "Trust me I've done this before." Elite R. Ephesianos ---------------------------------
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Majaraw Awalabas
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.01.22 11:37:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Ottom Ephesianos If they come out with a statement that they will stand aside while UshraÆKhan completes their mission to save the rest of the Minmatar people then peace is possible under counseled and sealed treaties. PIE inc. would also have to renounce their slaves.
You are not only a traitor to your race but also completely delusional.
PIE will not stand by while legal trade within the Empire is attacked by terrorists.
Keeping slaves is our divine duty.
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Gaius Kador
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.01.22 11:47:00 -
[15]
Personally I see no possibility for peace with the EM in the forseeable future.
Their repeated attacks on civilian shipping during their conflict with PIE has forced our hand.
EM crossed a line, I will not offer an olive branch to animals.
Oh and for all the sniveling politicians out there, this is my personal view of the situation, I do not speak for my CEO or the directorate. ----------------------------------------------
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Ikar Kaltin
Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.22 11:53:00 -
[16]
I find it interesting that in an adress to PIE and EM and allies, that PIE hve responded, and given conditions that they feel are acceptable for this, and members of NMTZ hve decided that these conditions are in fact ones to continue fighting.
I also find it fascinating the number of responses from Ushrakhan and other organisations that do not fight for the law of the Reublic that are present. If I understood the political nature of not only EM but NMTZ as well, they are loyal to the Republic whilst UK have said numerous times that they do not abide by Republic law. Are UK and EM/NMTZ in fact allies? If not I must ask what UK are doing responding to this issue enflaming the debate. Especially when EM have expressed they have the proof, and will show it if a truce could be called to show it.
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Majaraw Awalabas
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.01.22 13:20:00 -
[17]
Ikar Kaltin, PIE does not need you to mediate anything.
Thank you for your interest in this matter.
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Nachshon
Caldari Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.01.29 22:53:00 -
[18]
Ikar Kaltin, I made a similar proposal a few weeks ago. I got little response. Both sides - PIE and EM - persist in imposing conditions on a cease-fire. They do not understand that the idea of the cease-fire is that you put NO conditions on it.
Personally, I would not be averse to a solution consisting of our respective sides - CVA and NMTZ - breaking all connections with PIE and EM and making peace ourselves.
__________________________________________ What I say should not be taken as the position of Gradient or NMTZ. |
Meklon
Caldari Minmatar United Freedom Front Electus Matari
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Posted - 2007.01.29 23:05:00 -
[19]
I feel there is nothing further to be said in this matter, in all honesty I am 100% certain that neither PIE Inc. nor the Electus Matari will find common ground on which to base any forms of cease-fire agreements.
I do wish to commend CVA's and NMTZ's attempts at negotiations towards finding a peaceful solution, however it does seem as though this matter only has a single logical solution remaining.
On a personal note, I feel it best to ignore the comment from Nachshon. -=======- -=======- -=======- -=======-
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Archbishop
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.01.30 00:27:00 -
[20]
Quote: EM was there to help us, it was a JOINT operation.
I was under the assumption that EM just happened to stumble into these terrorists at the last minute and were merely defending themselves when fired upon. At least this is the story they've been telling everyone.
Now to hear there was a JOINT OPERATION with the notorious Fimbelwinter terrorist clan?
Imagine that.
Archbishop
PIE WEBSITE & FORUMS PIE INFORMATION CENTER |
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Ruah Piskonit
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.01.30 04:13:00 -
[21]
I am still trying to imagine that - and I ccan't seem to get the idea through my head. . . Back to work back to work. ----
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.01.30 12:14:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon on 30/01/2007 12:10:31
Originally by: Meklon On a personal note, I feel it best to ignore the comment from Nachshon.
Nachshon speaks for himself personally, not for Gradient. We will not abandon EM, as you very well know, Meklon.
My apologies for any hurt feelings, but as you also very well know, we do allow pilots as much freedom of speech in political matters as is possible without compromising security.
-- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient now. |
Ikar Kaltin
Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.30 12:58:00 -
[23]
I could understand PIEs reluctance to attend any sort of peace chaired by someone they were at war with at the time, not the best cicumstances to discuss peace in :)
And to NMTZ....I find it confusing how you could try and secure peace and to be whole-heartedly supporting EM in their war effort....isn't this contradictory in nature?
And Meclon, if you will not heed my attempts to do this at a cease-fire table then please feel free to share the information you have publically, im sure many non-Amarrians would love to see if it actually exists. You were offered a chance at a peaceful opportunity for this chance, and you refused it, please publically show this evidence. IF, and I mean IF, NMTZ have any belief in their own ideals of anti-piracy, then I am sure they would support me in this plea for the evidence t be presented to prove that EM were not just commited to *JOINT* attacks upon the Amarr Empire with known Terrorists, who do not support the Republic as you claim to. That is of course, if NMTZ are not as guilty as you of making war out of hatred.
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Meklon
Caldari Minmatar United Freedom Front Electus Matari
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Posted - 2007.01.30 14:24:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon
Nachshon speaks for himself personally, not for Gradient. We will not abandon EM, as you very well know, Meklon.
My apologies for any hurt feelings, but as you also very well know, we do allow pilots as much freedom of speech in political matters as is possible without compromising security.
I understand fully Else, please do not think that was a personal attack on our allies from NMTZ. As I said, I was just personally ignoring his comment - I have no doubt that we will not be abandoned by those close to us.
Originally by: Ikar Kaltin
And to NMTZ....I find it confusing how you could try and secure peace and to be whole-heartedly supporting EM in their war effort....isn't this contradictory in nature?
We are actively defending Republic interests Ikar, PIE Inc's regular incursions into Republic space show that we need to actively reply in force.
As for proof, well, for the time being and to ease perhaps some of your curiousity, we shall provide proof that the Amarrian Navy themselves are actively making raid's into Federation space - where the Electus partially operates.
Display Of Amarrian Navy Fleet in Luminaire Another shot of the Navy Fleet in Luminaire Croicavent Municlune's confirmation
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.01.30 14:39:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Meklon
We are actively defending Republic interests Ikar, PIE Inc's regular incursions into Republic space show that we need to actively reply in force.
Our incursions into Republic space became a lot more regular once you started committing acts of piracy in Imperial space.
Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori
It's great being Amarr, ain't it? |
Meklon
Caldari Minmatar United Freedom Front Electus Matari
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Posted - 2007.01.30 14:56:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Our incursions into Republic space became a lot more regular once you started committing acts of piracy in Imperial space.
Mr Blake, if Amarrian forces stopped their illegal slave running into Republic, Federation and State space, then we would have no need to strike at these illegal Amarrian convoys who are transporting these abducted citizens.
We have already shown you proof of none other than the Amarrian Navy themselves operating in Federation space establishing an illegal slave compound - if you would like to check Federation laws, you will see that slaves are still illegal there, so it would be quite interesting to hear your excuse for why the Amarr Navy are still erecting these compounds in systems not under the Amarrian Empire. -=======- -=======- -=======- -=======-
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.01.30 14:58:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Meklon
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Our incursions into Republic space became a lot more regular once you started committing acts of piracy in Imperial space.
Mr Blake, if Amarrian forces stopped their illegal slave running into Republic, Federation and State space, then we would have no need to strike at these illegal Amarrian convoys who are transporting these abducted citizens.
We have already shown you proof of none other than the Amarrian Navy themselves operating in Federation space establishing an illegal slave compound - if you would like to check Federation laws, you will see that slaves are still illegal there, so it would be quite interesting to hear your excuse for why the Amarr Navy are still erecting these compounds in systems not under the Amarrian Empire.
And I'm sure that if the Gallentean and Republic navies stopped their acts of piracy within Imperial space, there would be no need for the Imperial Navy to enter anyone else's territory.
Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori
It's great being Amarr, ain't it? |
Meklon
Caldari Minmatar United Freedom Front Electus Matari
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Posted - 2007.01.30 15:08:00 -
[28]
I wasn't asking why they were in non Amarrian space Rodj, I was asking why they were erecting illegal slave compounds in non Amarrian space. -=======- -=======- -=======- -=======-
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.01.30 15:19:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Meklon I wasn't asking why they were in non Amarrian space Rodj, I was asking why they were erecting illegal slave compounds in non Amarrian space.
I'm sure that there's a perfectly reasonable explanation for the resettlement camps.
Has it occurred to you that they might diplomatic missions receiving those applying for political asylum to escape the morally bankrupt Federation?
Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori
It's great being Amarr, ain't it? |
Ikar Kaltin
Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.30 16:06:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Ikar Kaltin
And to NMTZ....I find it confusing how you could try and secure peace and to be whole-heartedly supporting EM in their war effort....isn't this contradictory in nature?
We are actively defending Republic interests Ikar, PIE Inc's regular incursions into Republic space show that we need to actively reply in force.
As for proof that the Amarrians are still actively enslaving those from other nations, well, for the time being and to ease perhaps some of your curiousity, we shall provide proof that the Amarrian Navy themselves are actively making raid's into Federation space - where the Electus partially operates.
To begin with raids into Republic space began hunting Matari terrorists, those who do not respect the law of their own government to attack the Amarr, not to attack innocent Matari.
War was declared by PIE due to your refusal, and continued refusal, to prove that your act of piracy WITHIN Amarr space was in face an act of liberation. We also have not heard your reasoning for flying joint ops with known pirates and terrorists, who attack innocent pilots without warning, wether they be Amarr or not.
Electus Matari, do you support your Republic government and its policies? If yes please present proof your acts were not piracy. If no, then continue with you current acts of hostility and unprovoked aggression against Corporations (i.e. Delictium). Electus Matari, no matter what you say about the Amarr to justify your position you have done wrong in attacking Amarr ships in Amarr space, flying with pirates and terrorists without even proving it was justified.
As hard as it may sound, and even as amusing as it sounds, on this issue the Amarr have the moral highground, and yes were looking down on you.
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