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Alundil
Isogen 5
1083
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Posted - 2016.01.09 02:40:05 -
[181] - Quote
Reve Uhad wrote:Glyndi wrote:Reve Uhad wrote:> Implying CCP gives a **** about petitions let me translate: "Signed" I DO NOT DELEGATE MY VOTE TO PROXY. That's not what she .... Wait what?
I'm right behind you
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Seraph Essael
eXceed Inc.
1166
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Posted - 2016.01.09 04:08:16 -
[182] - Quote
Varyah wrote:Sorry but your argument is still that combat refits should stay so that players with REAL SKILL but small in numbers have an advantage over idiots with NO SKILL and high numbers. You are apparently comparing competent players with incompetent ones. Usually when considering balancing game mechanics ones does assumes about equal "skill" on both sides. And besides, if combat refitting is the only reason you can win against a blob of amateurs that never heard of combat refits then you obviously had bad intel - otherwise you would have been prepared better.
Confirming you have absolutely no clue here, both fleets can use combat refitting, both sides can do it. If both sides in a fleet can combat refit then it's perfectly equal, just because someone doesn't or cannot do it, does not make it overpowered... You seem to not understand about combat refitting, how wormhole fights actually work (including going into someone elses hole, because by your rules, you seem to think you would know every single ship that every single pilot will field before they field it), with PvP in general and with what I (and many others in this thread) am saying. I have tried explaining to you and you haven't (or are unwilling to) understand; Therefore I won't argue the point any more with you. Sorry.
Tyberius Franklin wrote: So that's the question still being asked: Is it just the greater capacity to fail while refitting that in your estimation enables the defender somehow without working against them, through their own mistakes or hostile competence, or something else?
I'm not even sure what that is asking to be entirely honest. Sorry. Perhaps rephrase the question, will attempt to answer when I understand.
Tyberius Franklin wrote:So the contention now is that you can't have good fights without refitting?
Negative, that's not what I am saying, and never once said that. But the good fights that you can have can be elongated by the fact combat refitting is a thing and can make them even better.
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Snip Sorry not quoting all that, getting far too long.
Okay dokay, so here's a scenario for you:
Fleet jumps a wormhole. Some caps and a whole fleet of T3's. Wormhole collapses. This fleet have gone Bhalls deep. The fleet start winning the fight. But as it's their enemies own hole, they reship and come back at range with more ships and knowing the fleet that was brought can't project out that far. They now have superior numbers and superior range.
Better yet, watch this video It shows exactly what I am trying to explain.
For the record, if you can't be arsed to watch it, we lost our Dreads, we pulled our fleet out by all purpose we lost the fight that day. We where the Bhalls deep fleet and it was an amazing fight that only lasted as long due to the ability to refit. Had we been unable to do just that, there would have been a very much shorter video.
Not to sound rude. But is this an alt? Five year old char in NPC corp with only two losses to his name? Because if it's your main, I am afraid, as you haven't done any combat refitting or experienced fight in which it is necessary, you cannot, come hell or high water, fathom what I am trying to say. (and no that's not meant as a sly "Post with your main" before you ask)
Quoted from Doc Fury: "Concerned citizens: Doc seldom plays EVE on the weekends during spring and summer, so you will always be on your own for a couple days a week. Doc spends that time collecting kittens for the on-going sacrifices, engaging in reckless outdoor activities, and speaking in the 3rd person."
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1854
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Posted - 2016.01.09 04:46:13 -
[183] - Quote
Seraph Essael wrote:[quote=Seraph Essael]I'm not even sure what that is asking to be entirely honest. Sorry. Perhaps rephrase the question, will attempt to answer when I understand. Though it may not have been your intent you did answer.
As far as the vid, not at a place I can watch, so I can't for now, but thanks for the description.
Regarding understanding, this isn't as deep as you're making it (understanding and execution don't really have to go hand in hand with this game, just a willingness to listen). Rather it's a series of assumptions that the changes aren't being made with a lack of combat refitting in mind and how having cap centric mods with refitting might break certain aspects of cap warfare.
Whereas now it lengthens fights, if cap modules actually turn out useful combat refitting may just make invasions that much harder against capable opponents using it since the would be able to more easily counter what you brought to a fight on the fly or keep their assets alive longer, denying loss that may have been inflicted more easily on current caps.
Saying combat refits will benefit the new caps in WH space, while possibly correct as a final conclusion, seems pretty shortsighted with the lack of particulars.
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Maraner
The Executioners Shadow Cartel
333
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Posted - 2016.01.09 05:47:24 -
[184] - Quote
+1
Signed.
Its not broken... stop dumbing down the game CCP |
Djeli
Haywire.
2
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Posted - 2016.01.09 06:13:31 -
[185] - Quote
Signed. |
Maria Dragoon
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
93
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Posted - 2016.01.09 06:18:54 -
[186] - Quote
Maraner wrote:+1
Signed.
Its not broken... stop dumbing down the game CCP
It dumbing down the game, to...make people have to do more research, better prep their fleets, make sure they bring proper logi, and in turn making it so that carriers can't play as mobile refitting fortresses? Please tell me how you came up to the conclusion that CCP is anyway dumbing down the game by making this change? Hell seems to me they've just upped the difficulty curve.
Life is really simple, but we insist on making it complicated. Confucius
"A man who talks to people who aren't real is crazy. A man who talks to people who aren't real and writes down what they say is an author."
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Victor MaCleod
eXceed Inc.
5
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Posted - 2016.01.09 06:23:04 -
[187] - Quote
Signed. |
Ossey
Haywire.
0
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Posted - 2016.01.09 11:42:48 -
[188] - Quote
Signed. It's a problem in one area of the game, there has to be a more creative solution thank a blanket nerf to the entire game. |
Karouet Andedare
fiftyninepee
0
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Posted - 2016.01.09 13:00:27 -
[189] - Quote
signed |
Zerb Erusius
Sonnenlegion Shadow Cartel
0
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Posted - 2016.01.09 14:30:48 -
[190] - Quote
signed |
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Zycorax II
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
4
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Posted - 2016.01.09 14:44:51 -
[191] - Quote
I approve of this petition.
Signed |
Jack Hayson
Atztech Inc. Ixtab.
342
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Posted - 2016.01.09 14:47:25 -
[192] - Quote
Maria Dragoon wrote:It dumbing down the game, to...make people have to do more research, better prep their fleets
You F1 monkeys don't do research anyway - you fit according to the doctrine of your alliance and hit F1 when your FC tells you to. Combat refitting puts at least some of that responsibility back to the individual pilot. I can understand why the average F1 monkey might be scared of that.
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Maria Dragoon
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
95
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Posted - 2016.01.09 17:13:32 -
[193] - Quote
Jack Hayson wrote:Maria Dragoon wrote:It dumbing down the game, to...make people have to do more research, better prep their fleets You F1 monkeys don't do research anyway - you fit according to the doctrine of your alliance and hit F1 when your FC tells you to. Combat refitting puts at least some of that responsibility back to the individual pilot. I can understand why the average F1 monkey might be scared of that.
I'm sorry that you assume to know what profession I take, that being said, if I'm a f1 monkey and all I can do is think of what the FC tells me, what makes you think that the fit change is my responsibility and simply press a button as soon as the FC yells "REFIT TO ARMOR TANK!"?
Life is really simple, but we insist on making it complicated. Confucius
"A man who talks to people who aren't real is crazy. A man who talks to people who aren't real and writes down what they say is an author."
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Angelique Duchemin
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
971
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Posted - 2016.01.09 17:59:13 -
[194] - Quote
If combat refitting is so good because it awards adaptation. Then why is it that the people who are so in favour of it, are at the same time terrified of having to adapt to a world where it is changed?
The very sun of heaven seemed distorted when viewed through the polarising miasma welling out from this sea-soaked perversion, and twisted menace and suspense lurked leeringly in those crazily elusive angles of carven rock where a second glance shewed concavity after the first shewed convexity.
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Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
396
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Posted - 2016.01.09 19:24:18 -
[195] - Quote
signed,
I think this change should be made at a time when only the finest-tuning is going on (though that said, with the capital rebalance and indroduction of force auxiliaries, I don't think it's needed......)
For posting an idea into F&I:
come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it.....
If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.
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Nex Ut-Totus
Suddenly Carebears
5
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Posted - 2016.01.09 19:35:18 -
[196] - Quote
Angelique Duchemin wrote:If combat refitting is so good because it awards adaptation. Then why is it that the people who are so in favour of it, are at the same time terrified of having to adapt to a world where it is changed? Only fitting managers and fleet commanders will adapt their fits and strategies and Eve probably will become more boring as a result. Signed, i think this change will be too much with the others. We should see how new capitals play out first. And for subcaps, CCP can increase gun volumes so people can't switch between AC and arty. |
Sakul Aubaris
Holy Cookie
6
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Posted - 2016.01.09 20:00:35 -
[197] - Quote
Signed.
I understand the reasons behind removing refitting within combat, but i think its the wrong patch to reach those goals. It's a nice metagaming possibility and one of the most difficult to lern playerskills in EVE. So CCP try to balance the new capitalmods right and you can achieve your goals without removing this feature. |
Varyah
I am Forever of the Stars
30
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Posted - 2016.01.09 21:29:26 -
[198] - Quote
Seraph Essael wrote:Varyah wrote:Sorry but your argument is still that combat refits should stay so that players with REAL SKILL but small in numbers have an advantage over idiots with NO SKILL and high numbers. You are apparently comparing competent players with incompetent ones. Usually when considering balancing game mechanics ones does assumes about equal "skill" on both sides. And besides, if combat refitting is the only reason you can win against a blob of amateurs that never heard of combat refits then you obviously had bad intel - otherwise you would have been prepared better.
Confirming you have absolutely no clue here, both fleets can use combat refitting, both sides can do it. If both sides in a fleet can combat refit then it's perfectly equal, just because someone doesn't or cannot do it, does not make it overpowered... You seem to not understand about combat refitting, how wormhole fights actually work (including going into someone elses hole, because by your rules, you seem to think you would know every single ship that every single pilot will field before they field it), with PvP in general and with what I (and many others in this thread) am saying. I have tried explaining to you and you haven't (or are unwilling to) understand; Therefore I won't argue the point any more with you. Sorry.
You don't seem to understand the problem I am having with your argument, not pointed out by me alone. The only thing I wanted to point out is that that argument of yours isn't an argument at all. To restate it in simple terms:
You acknowledge that if both sides can combat refit properly then it's perfectly equal. Great.
Then, again, you go on and tell me that this somehow applies differently in wormholes - your example is still as I understand it going with a small number of pilots against a larger defender in their hole.
So where did we lose the perfectly equal when going into the wormhole scenario?
The thing is you cannot always assume that your target (other group in their hole) doesn't understand the fitting mechanic - unless of course your strategy is to pick on amateurs (which shows really great skill going exclusively after weaker players). This is the problem I have with your argument, you stacked its premise in your favor without justification. And this makes your argument flawed. Yes, IF your opponents are a bunch of amateurs you have an advantage - BUT that is independent of the wormholes EVEN IF you assume that your targets are always amateurs (generally not the case). |
Testament81
Southern Cross Incorporated Shadow Cartel
0
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Posted - 2016.01.10 02:07:22 -
[199] - Quote
do not change |
Requiescat
Adversity. Psychotic Tendencies.
205
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Posted - 2016.01.10 02:57:09 -
[200] - Quote
Varyah wrote:stuff about refitting in whs
let me poke at the point the wh dudes are trying to get at, i think;
removing combat refitting takes away something from invaders. not an advantage, but a levelling of the playing field. when someone invades your wh system, they come to your home, and you can watch them do so, then bring appropriate ships to counter them with proper fits for such, refitted from an anchored ship maintenance array at a pos, and never have to worry about combat refitting. when invading someone's hole, you can only bring what you can fit through the hole, and many times it collapses behind you. being able to refit in combat doesn't put invaders at an advantage over defenders, it puts them on the same level, in that aspect at least, which takes away one advantage of the already stacked deck favoring defenders
Maria Dragoon wrote:I'm sorry that you assume to know what profession I take
we assume because you don't post with your main. what are you afraid of? what reason could you have for posting with a noob corp alt? is digi going to kill your dog?
hi i'm requiescat, and i'm your best friendGÖÑ
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Maria Dragoon
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
98
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Posted - 2016.01.10 03:20:33 -
[201] - Quote
Requiescat wrote:Varyah wrote:stuff about refitting in whs let me poke at the point the wh dudes are trying to get at, i think; removing combat refitting takes away something from invaders. not an advantage, but a levelling of the playing field. when someone invades your wh system, they come to your home, and you can watch them do so, then bring appropriate ships to counter them with proper fits for such, refitted from an anchored ship maintenance array at a pos, and never have to worry about combat refitting. when invading someone's hole, you can only bring what you can fit through the hole, and many times it collapses behind you. being able to refit in combat doesn't put invaders at an advantage over defenders, it puts them on the same level, in that aspect at least, which takes away one advantage of the already stacked deck favoring defenders Maria Dragoon wrote:I'm sorry that you assume to know what profession I take we assume because you don't post with your main. what are you afraid of? what reason could you have for posting with a noob corp alt? is digi going to kill your dog?
I'm also glad that you assume that because I'm in a NPC corp, that this is not my main character. Tell you a secret. All my characters at the moment are inside NPC corps at the moment. Why are they inside npc corps? Because I simply don't feel like joining another corp at the moment, you can check my corp history if you wish, you can see that I have been in other corps, and this is hardly a forum alt. Do it, log into the game, and look up my name, it shouldn't be all that hard. Now that we gotten the impression that you do a lot of assuming out of the way, I'm going to poke one massive hole in the argument above.
Why didn't you first send scouts to find out what the wormhole environment is like, and then fitting your ship to best take advantage of that. do you people really just jump head first into a wormhole without sending scouts and doing research on what the possible residences like to fly?
Life is really simple, but we insist on making it complicated. Confucius
"A man who talks to people who aren't real is crazy. A man who talks to people who aren't real and writes down what they say is an author."
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Seraph Essael
eXceed Inc.
1167
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Posted - 2016.01.10 04:21:14 -
[202] - Quote
Requiescat, you get it at the base point. Thank god someone does!!! There's more too it than what you say, but you have the fundamental core, yes!
Quoted from Doc Fury: "Concerned citizens: Doc seldom plays EVE on the weekends during spring and summer, so you will always be on your own for a couple days a week. Doc spends that time collecting kittens for the on-going sacrifices, engaging in reckless outdoor activities, and speaking in the 3rd person."
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Top Guac
Mexican Avacado Syndicate
98
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Posted - 2016.01.10 04:26:23 -
[203] - Quote
Maria Dragoon wrote:Requiescat wrote:Varyah wrote:stuff about refitting in whs let me poke at the point the wh dudes are trying to get at, i think; removing combat refitting takes away something from invaders. not an advantage, but a levelling of the playing field. when someone invades your wh system, they come to your home, and you can watch them do so, then bring appropriate ships to counter them with proper fits for such, refitted from an anchored ship maintenance array at a pos, and never have to worry about combat refitting. when invading someone's hole, you can only bring what you can fit through the hole, and many times it collapses behind you. being able to refit in combat doesn't put invaders at an advantage over defenders, it puts them on the same level, in that aspect at least, which takes away one advantage of the already stacked deck favoring defenders Maria Dragoon wrote:I'm sorry that you assume to know what profession I take we assume because you don't post with your main. what are you afraid of? what reason could you have for posting with a noob corp alt? is digi going to kill your dog? I'm also glad that you assume that because I'm in a NPC corp, that this is not my main character. Tell you a secret. All my characters at the moment are inside NPC corps at the moment. Why are they inside npc corps? Because I simply don't feel like joining another corp at the moment, you can check my corp history if you wish, you can see that I have been in other corps, and this is hardly a forum alt. Do it, log into the game, and look up my name, it shouldn't be all that hard. Now that we gotten the impression that you do a lot of assuming out of the way, I'm going to poke one massive hole in the argument above. Why didn't you first send scouts to find out what the wormhole environment is like, and then fitting your ship to best take advantage of that. do you people really just jump head first into a wormhole without sending scouts and doing research on what the possible residences like to fly? Do you really want all WH pvp to be stale, slow, built up engagements because you need to scout ahead for a couple of days to see what the residents fly?
There's something to be said for spontaneity and for changing wormhole connections that mean you never know exactly what the chain will hold in store for you to pvp.
"Sorry guys, we can't go fight, we need to scout first".........boring
Sometimes an opportunity for fun is much better then that. |
Luft Reich
Suddenly Carebears
128
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Posted - 2016.01.10 04:28:57 -
[204] - Quote
Angelique Duchemin wrote:If combat refitting is so good because it awards adaptation. Then why is it that the people who are so in favour of it, are at the same time terrified of having to adapt to a world where it is changed?
God damn you are dumb....
ISD Cyberdyne liked your forum post
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Maria Dragoon
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
99
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Posted - 2016.01.10 04:47:06 -
[205] - Quote
Top Guac wrote: Do you really want all WH pvp to be stale, slow, built up engagements because you need to scout ahead for a couple of days to see what the residents fly?
There's something to be said for spontaneity and for changing wormhole connections that mean you never know exactly what the chain will hold in store for you to pvp.
"Sorry guys, we can't go fight, we need to scout first".........boring
Sometimes an opportunity for fun is much better then that.
Opportunity for fun can still be have, you can still send a small sub-cap fleet through, can still have a quick probe force thrown up to scan them down as fast as possible to see if you can nab a few and and get a few kills. That being said. hot swapping in the middle of fights doesn't create interesting and evolving game play, it creates stale gameplay on who can click that swap loadout faster then the other guy. It creates a gameplay where every ship can be a swiss army knife as soon as a carrier shows up, or has a mobile depot sitting next to them. That doesn't create interesting game-play and it only favors large fleets who can bring that kind of force and assets to bare.
But I'll tell you want. I'll make a prediction for you.
I will predict that this petition will go exactly where the Music juke box petition went after it was removed. Absolutely no where. :)
Life is really simple, but we insist on making it complicated. Confucius
"A man who talks to people who aren't real is crazy. A man who talks to people who aren't real and writes down what they say is an author."
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Top Guac
Mexican Avacado Syndicate
98
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Posted - 2016.01.10 05:00:04 -
[206] - Quote
Maria Dragoon wrote:Top Guac wrote: Do you really want all WH pvp to be stale, slow, built up engagements because you need to scout ahead for a couple of days to see what the residents fly?
There's something to be said for spontaneity and for changing wormhole connections that mean you never know exactly what the chain will hold in store for you to pvp.
"Sorry guys, we can't go fight, we need to scout first".........boring
Sometimes an opportunity for fun is much better then that.
Opportunity for fun can still be have, you can still send a small sub-cap fleet through, can still have a quick probe force thrown up to scan them down as fast as possible to see if you can nab a few and and get a few kills. That being said. hot swapping in the middle of fights doesn't create interesting and evolving game play, it creates stale gameplay on who can click that swap loadout faster then the other guy. It creates a gameplay where every ship can be a swiss army knife as soon as a carrier shows up, or has a mobile depot sitting next to them. That doesn't create interesting game-play and it only favors large fleets who can bring that kind of force and assets to bare. But I'll tell you want. I'll make a prediction for you. I will predict that this petition will go exactly where the Music juke box petition went after it was removed. Absolutely no where. :) Do you even wormhole mate?
First you suggest boring gameplay as an option and then completely constrained gameplay.
Why are even suggesting a certain style of play when it's clear you don't have much clue? |
Maria Dragoon
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
99
|
Posted - 2016.01.10 05:25:16 -
[207] - Quote
Top Guac wrote: Do you even wormhole mate?
First you suggest boring gameplay as an option and then completely constrained gameplay.
Why are even suggesting a certain style of play when it's clear you don't have much clue?
Oh, now we are going to play the, do you even wormhole card.
I been through wormholes a few times, 99% of the time, it was simply passing through, the other 1% of the time I was curious on what was on the other side and popped my head in, and was more often then not greeted by, well.. Nothing, sometimes I would scan a few sites down, and peak around to see if anyone left behind some loot, only to find angry sleeper ships. Didn't care much for it, because I'm making more then enough isk doing what I do. But from my short time inside of the wormhole, nothing much was different besides the total lack of local, and of course if you don't bring probes, you run the risk of getting stuck in said wormhole. Then sometimes you have wormholes with effects that challenge or bolster your ship depending on your fit, or straight up, the ship itself.
"First you suggest boring gameplay as an option and then completely constrained gameplay."
My counter would be of course that I find ships acting as swiss army knives as boring gameplay, and offers no real excitement when you do the research on how someone fits and flies, and prepping a counter ship, only to have them suddenly retrofit half way though the fight. But hey man, keep preaching what you preach.
"Why are even suggesting a certain style of play when it's clear you don't have much clue?"
what exactly style of play does Refitting while in direct combat fall under? Pray, do enlighten me.
Life is really simple, but we insist on making it complicated. Confucius
"A man who talks to people who aren't real is crazy. A man who talks to people who aren't real and writes down what they say is an author."
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Top Guac
Mexican Avacado Syndicate
98
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Posted - 2016.01.10 05:31:29 -
[208] - Quote
Maria Dragoon wrote: Pray, do enlighten me. It is doubtful that enough time exists. |
Maria Dragoon
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
99
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Posted - 2016.01.10 05:36:07 -
[209] - Quote
Top Guac wrote:Maria Dragoon wrote: Pray, do enlighten me. It is doubtful that enough time exists.
So basically, you have nothing.
Life is really simple, but we insist on making it complicated. Confucius
"A man who talks to people who aren't real is crazy. A man who talks to people who aren't real and writes down what they say is an author."
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Kenrailae
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
537
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Posted - 2016.01.10 05:49:09 -
[210] - Quote
+1/signed. Keep Combat refitting. Maybe a 20 second delay/session change or something, but keep combat refitting as combat refitting.
The Law is a point of View
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