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Aria Jenneth
Caldari
Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.01.22 10:05:00 -
[1]
Hello.
We're not friends, exactly, and, indeed, the term "bitter enemies" might be applied, at least between some of you and me. Over the past months, I've dogged your footsteps here on the IGS, weakening your case for your actions as best I could. In some way, I've done this poorly, at least in expressing the reasons for my writings, and I hope, here, to give a little better accounting. More importantly, though, I will now try to accomplish something constructive.
From some angle, my position for speaking on this is a poor one: I am a member of Omerta Syndicate, a bluntly amoral organization. I am no philosopher or great teacher, and I have a lot of blood on my hands, much of it for reasons poorer than the cause for which you fight. This doesn't make what I have to say any more or less true. To speak plainly, I don't oppose Star Fraction because I dislike its methods. I oppose Star Fraction because I don't believe its actions serve even its own cause, and that a Star Fraction victory would mean the end of both your dreams and mine.
I remain unconvinced of the future you see, even of whether it is possible. Humans, it seems to me, are too petty, to selfish and short-sighted, to become what you hope they will. If I were convinced, however, I would still never join you as you are now. Let me try to explain why, and what I see that might be done.
The posthuman society you seek, as I understand it (and as confirmed by several of your own members; yes, I know you all have different opinions and goals), is a world of enlightened self-interest, where all are free to become all they have the ability to become and no one wields significant power over others. I shall, for the moment, skip over a few of the finer details for the broader image: enlightened anarchy; cooperation by choice, not by coercion; freedom and empowerment for all.
In order to achieve this ideal, certain other ideas ("memes") must die, or come to be widely regarded as hopelessly backward: nationalism, hierarchy, the good of the many in opposition to the good of the one. I may have missed a couple, but this is the crux of the matter. The question, then, becomes how to purge such ideas from the populace (meaning all of humanity).
Star Fraction's approach is, ironically, comparable to that of the Amarr: holy war. The problem with this is that it's a great way to kill people and a terrible way to kill ideas. Being attacked doesn't cause people to open up: it closes them. They close ranks, sing patriotic songs, and, if you defeat them, harbor for generations the notion that they were right all along and that your "elitist" ideas are being foisted off upon them by force. At best, they will harbor bitter resentment towards you and your ideas, even if they accept some of them (this category I admit to falling into). Should you succeed in your aim and somehow crush the empires, this situation will be magnified: people will not only be under attack by you, but by their neighbors and even by their environment as supplies are cut off and civil order crumbles. They'll form tight, untrusting groups (hierarchical groups, at that), war with one another, prey on each other; the weak will gradually gravitate to the strong, and you'll have feudalism, a system all of us but the Amarr have gotten past, popping up all over the place.
You'll have started a new dark age, and I want no part of that. Frankly, I don't think you do, either.
[cont'd]
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Aria Jenneth
Caldari
Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.01.22 10:06:00 -
[2]
[saved]
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Aria Jenneth
Caldari
Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.01.22 10:33:00 -
[3]
[saved]
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Nekumi
Caldari
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.01.22 11:13:00 -
[4]
You always assume that we will just stop when we've destroyed the statist entities and idealogues, to let someone step in and just pick up the old ways once again. Why is that?
These boundaries have been in place for too long and they will end up turning what you suggest doing into a calcified mockery of what it should achieve. The Caldari had the chance to try what you suggest and instead became a *****ed mirror image of the entity it left.
We are fighting against that and if you think we will ever stop to let in your "dark age" you are mistaken.
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Aria Jenneth
Caldari
Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.01.22 11:19:00 -
[5]
Then the new feudalism will have some very odd overlords.
Your ideas for how to destroy society are much better-formed, even now, in their early stages, than are your ideas for how to put it back together again.
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Roy Gordon
Caldari
The Star Wolves
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Posted - 2007.01.22 11:26:00 -
[6]
At last, the Fraction admit that they are going to replace the old 'despotic' regime's with their own one!
And what makes you think your vision will be better than everyone elses eh?
From all reports it appears to me that the Fraction are just as bad as the very organisations they wish to destroy.
That which does not kill us makes us stronger.
The Universe is ruled by three basic principles-
Matter, Energy and Enlightened Self-Interest! |
Aria Jenneth
Caldari
Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.01.22 11:33:00 -
[7]
As an aside, thinking of good examples of corporations to watch out for, the first and primary one to come to mind isn't a Caldari megacorp (you can make a Raven without Ishukone receiving 0.01 ISK).
It's Quaffe.
Popular, respected, widespread, and a monopoly: very nasty combination, if you're trying to prevent it from gathering significant levels of power.
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Tecam Hund
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.01.22 12:24:00 -
[8]
As opposed to what you think we do not destroy memes by killing those who carry them. Is this a coincidence that you would bring this up right after there was a discussion on the same exact topic not long ago? I think our position was clarified there, and whether you accept it or not matters little. But I will say this again. The Star Fraction leads by example, the example of what a number of free and self-interested individuals can achieve despite nearly the whole universe being against us. Our wars target the strongholds of backwards ancient ideas simply to prevent them from spreading their influence.
And here is my version of what will happen after the "apocalypse". Free trade is certainly a vital part of revolution, but this is where I stop agreeing with you. Suggestion of making piracy unprofitable by eliminating it by force is laughable at best. There is more to piracy than profit. Many become outlaws to rebel against the closed system we currently live in, to take control of their own lives. You try to stop them by implementation of force from somebody official, and you will only face more resistance. Securing trade lines also develops dependence in the traders, which is complete opposite from what we are trying to accomplish. Everyone must stand strong in their own right. You say there are strong and there are weak? I say bull$#%@. It is a myth spread by those who would have others depend on them to spread their influence.
After the current system is broken, and more people realize that they can be indeed free and self-sufficient there is no chance of the feudal system forming. There will be no weak or strong. You can not enclose a mind once it is freed. I know this from personal experience.
Interesting, how everyone talks about humanity not being ready as a whole. Everyone of us in The Star Fraction is ready. What makes others worse or less capable than us? Who are you to decide for others if they are capable of leaving behind the old regressive ways? I say, if one person can, then others can. We do not evolve by sticking with the ways of our grandfathers, and being afraid of change. Time for others to learn this lesson if they want a brighter future.
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Tecam Hund
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.01.22 12:39:00 -
[9]
 Originally by: Roy Gordon
And what makes you think your vision will be better than everyone elses eh?
From all reports it appears to me that the Fraction are just as bad as the very organisations they wish to destroy.
You have said this at least three times, yet your words are worth nothing without capability to prove your point of view (and I do not mean by force). You see, you stay in your comfort zone saying that we are no better than the tyrants we fight against. It would seem that you oppose the tyranny as well, but yet you do nothing.
You are a plant.
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Nekumi
Caldari
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.01.22 12:52:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Roy Gordon
At last, the Fraction admit that they are going to replace the old 'despotic' regime's with their own one!
And what makes you think your vision will be better than everyone elses eh?
From all reports it appears to me that the Fraction are just as bad as the very organisations they wish to destroy.
Where is this admission, where are these reports, you mewling little pup? Did you read anything in this thread?
I do not seek to claim dominion over any one but myself, nor does the Star Fraction harbour any such notions for anyone else.
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Takakura Hirohito
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Posted - 2007.01.22 12:55:00 -
[11]
The Empires are free space already. People living there made a choice to stay. No one is forcing people to live in the Caldari State, the Minmatar Republic, the Gallente Federation or the Amarr Empire except the slaves. People are already free. People who have made the choice to live and fight for these nationalistic governments do so of their own free will. This would seem to encompass all that the Star Fraction fights for. Yet the Star Fraction attacks these people who have exercised freedom of choice.
Star Fraction are hypocrites.
Taki
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Merdaneth
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.01.22 13:30:00 -
[12]
Star Fraction seems to miss the point of societies.
Societies exist because inter-dependency is more efficient. A group of cooperative specialists is more effective in achieving a particular goal than a group of cooperative generalists. Division of labour is the precursor to civilization, otherwise we would still all be farmers.
I also mourn for the hapless crew of the Star Fraction battleships. The Star Fraction cannot pilot their vessels without them, and these crews don't think about their 'enlightened self-interest' when asked to die for their (de-facto immortal) 'free captains'? They just die in subservient droves, subject to to erratic whims of the Star Fraction captains.
If the Star Fraction truly espouses self-sufficiency, they would be flying small frigates without crew.
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The Cosmopolite
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.01.22 13:52:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Merdaneth
Star Fraction seems to miss the point of societies.
Societies exist because inter-dependency is more efficient. A group of cooperative specialists is more effective in achieving a particular goal than a group of cooperative generalists. Division of labour is the precursor to civilization, otherwise we would still all be farmers.
Do we advocate that there be absolutely no societies whatever? No.
We advocate free-association and co-operation on the basis of self-interest. Yes, we emphasise the ability of human beings and those moving towards the Posthuman Age to generalise and make use of many talents. As has been said before, specialisation is for insects.
Your claim that a group of co-operative specialists will be most efficient in achieving a particular goal is quite possibly so when the goal is precise, clear and the means of getting there within the specialisms of all concerned.
Life, which is a series of problems, is however much in the habit of throwing up unforeseen circumstances and in the long-run, the co-operative generalists, with their flexibility, redundancy and ability to adapt will prosper as the specialists become obsolete. Your vision is narrow and below the horizon of the future. Your every argument proceeds from conditions that obtain now or in the past. The future of the species is one of longevity beyond even the dreams of your corrupt Holders and it is in this context that we frame our goals and the actions we must take in support of them.
Quote:
I also mourn for the hapless crew of the Star Fraction battleships. The Star Fraction cannot pilot their vessels without them, and these crews don't think about their 'enlightened self-interest' when asked to die for their (de-facto immortal) 'free captains'? They just die in subservient droves, subject to to erratic whims of the Star Fraction captains.
If the Star Fraction truly espouses self-sufficiency, they would be flying small frigates without crew.
Our crews either share our ideals, willingly take our coin against the known risks or simply seek adventure in the inky deeps of space. In return for their service, we take steps to provide escape mechanisms for the crew.
I suggest you not start an argument about the lack of escape facilities when it is a documented fact that Armageddon class battleships, to name but one ship type you should be familiar with, have life rafts and escape pods even when flying in service to the Imperial Navy.
Whatever their reasons for serving with us, our crews know the risks and they accept them. We take no lessons on the presence of 'subservient droves' aboard ships from the likes of slavery-supporting Amarrian paramilitaries.
The Cosmopolite
The Star Fraction Recruitment |
Roy Gordon
Caldari
The Star Wolves
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Posted - 2007.01.22 13:57:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Nekumi
You always assume that we will just stop when we've destroyed the statist entities and idealogues, to let someone step in and just pick up the old ways once again. Why is that?
These boundaries have been in place for too long and they will end up turning what you suggest doing into a calcified mockery of what it should achieve. The Caldari had the chance to try what you suggest and instead became a *****ed mirror image of the entity it left.
We are fighting against that and if you think we will ever stop to let in your "dark age" you are mistaken.
Errr...this reads exactly like you intend lording over us when you cause the galaxy structure to collapse. Perhaps you did not mean it to sound that way huh?
That which does not kill us makes us stronger.
The Universe is ruled by three basic principles-
Matter, Energy and Enlightened Self-Interest! |
The Cosmopolite
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.01.22 14:18:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Roy Gordon
Originally by: Nekumi
You always assume that we will just stop when we've destroyed the statist entities and idealogues, to let someone step in and just pick up the old ways once again. Why is that?
These boundaries have been in place for too long and they will end up turning what you suggest doing into a calcified mockery of what it should achieve. The Caldari had the chance to try what you suggest and instead became a *****ed mirror image of the entity it left.
We are fighting against that and if you think we will ever stop to let in your "dark age" you are mistaken.
Errr...this reads exactly like you intend lording over us when you cause the galaxy structure to collapse. Perhaps you did not mean it to sound that way huh?
'Exactly', eh? So where is the expression of an intent to 'lord' over anyone? Where 'exactly' is that?
A statement that having once destroyed a thing, we will not allow someone to rebuild that which we have destroyed is not a statement of intent to 'lord' over anyone and restrict their ability to act in their own true interests. It is simply a statement that we will act to stop others from seeking to renew those structures that let them 'lord' over us and others.
A statement of repudiation of boundaries is not a statement that we will hem in others.
A statement that we will fight against all structures of statism and enclosurism and that we will not stop fighting even having achieved the doom of such, understanding that we will have to resist those who would wreak senseless violence or seek to establish petty baronies in space, is not a manifesto for the establishment of our own fiefdoms and manorial domains.
You're right to suggest that my comrade did not mean her remarks to sound 'exactly like [we] intend lording it over [you]' because if she did mean them to sound like that she would have done a singularly and uncharacteristically incompetent job of framing her remarks to that end, for they sound absolutely nothing like that.
The Cosmopolite
The Star Fraction Recruitment |
Merdaneth
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.01.22 14:52:00 -
[16]
Originally by: The Cosmopolite
Life, which is a series of problems, is however much in the habit of throwing up unforeseen circumstances and in the long-run, the co-operative generalists, with their flexibility, redundancy and ability to adapt will prosper as the specialists become obsolete.
I doubt the so-called 'Free Captains' can even solve such a simple problem as deciding on what side of the road people should drive. No doubt each independent and self-sufficient 'Free Captain' can decide for himself what the proper side is, will murder anyone telling him what side he should drive on, with the corresponding lack of agreement and clarity resulting in a huge amount of traffic accidents in an idealized Star Fraction society.
Sometimes everyone doing the same thing is more important than each person being able to choose what to do.
Originally by: The Cosmopolite
Our crews either share our ideals, willingly take our coin against the known risks or simply seek adventure in the inky deeps of space. In return for their service, we take steps to provide escape mechanisms for the crew.
Whatever their reasons for serving with us, our crews know the risks and they accept them. We take no lessons on the presence of 'subservient droves' aboard ships from the likes of slavery-supporting Amarrian paramilitaries.
In that case, I stand corrected. I admit having no personal experience with the life of a crew member aboard Star Fraction vessel. Still, it seems to me the 'Free Captains' are hardly self-sufficient, since they depend on hundreds of 'specialized' crewmembers to fly and maintain their starships.
Also, as a 'Free Captain' you should know better than to judge me solely by my racial background and organization I belong too. Or is reducing individuals to mere stereotypes typical of the Star Fraction philosphy? I thought individual responsibility was one of their highest ideals?
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The Cosmopolite
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.01.22 15:35:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Merdaneth
I doubt the so-called 'Free Captains' can even solve such a simple problem as deciding on what side of the road people should drive. No doubt each independent and self-sufficient 'Free Captain' can decide for himself what the proper side is, will murder anyone telling him what side he should drive on, with the corresponding lack of agreement and clarity resulting in a huge amount of traffic accidents in an idealized Star Fraction society.
Sometimes everyone doing the same thing is more important than each person being able to choose what to do.
Your rather silly attempt at humour falls flat because it is a perfect example of when fully-informed and self-interested actors would freely choose to act in accord the better to serve their own interests.
Once again, the false dichotomy between individuality and co-operation that obsesses small minds comes up. I dare say it won't be the last time.
Quote:
In that case, I stand corrected. I admit having no personal experience with the life of a crew member aboard Star Fraction vessel. Still, it seems to me the 'Free Captains' are hardly self-sufficient, since they depend on hundreds of 'specialized' crewmembers to fly and maintain their starships.
Here we have the usual fallacy that the inability to be absolutely and entirely reliant on one's own faculties and immediate physical capabilities due to limitations imposed by the laws of physics and the current state of technology invalidates the aspiration to self-reliance and all genuine efforts to be as self-reliant as it is possible to be given physical limitations and the goals toward which one works.
The fallacy is further punctured in this instance by the simple fact that the freecaptains of the Star Fraction have no problem whatever in securing the services of crew on free terms and with our own resources.
Quote:
Also, as a 'Free Captain' you should know better than to judge me solely by my racial background and organization I belong too. Or is reducing individuals to mere stereotypes typical of the Star Fraction philosphy? I thought individual responsibility was one of their highest ideals?
I did not judge you by your racial background in any way whatever. I did make what I judged to be a fair inference from your openly displayed loyalty to an Amarrian paramilitary gang.
However, if you are here and now, as a member of PIE Inc., going to tell me that you do not use slaves, do not support the institution of slavery, wish it to be abolished utterly and that you take responsibility for this position and argue for it within your corporation and with others loyal to the Empire, then I will grant you that assumptions I drew about you based on your membership of an Amarrian loyalist corporation that defends the institution of slavery in word and deed may have been somewhat off base.
I await your repudiation of slavery in all its forms with interest.
The Cosmopolite
The Star Fraction Recruitment |
Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.01.22 16:00:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 22/01/2007 16:03:43
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 22/01/2007 15:57:48
Originally by: The Cosmopolite
However, if you are here and now, as a member of PIE Inc., going to tell me that you do not use slaves, do not support the institution of slavery, wish it to be abolished utterly and that you take responsibility for this position and argue for it within your corporation and with others loyal to the Empire, then I will grant you that assumptions I drew about you based on your membership of an Amarrian loyalist corporation that defends the institution of slavery in word and deed may have been somewhat off base.
I await your repudiation of slavery in all its forms with interest.
The Cosmopolite
You seem to have misunderstood the point, The. It wouldn't be the first time.
The issue is not whether or not PIE Inc. as an organisation uses slaves. We have a history of doing so, and are perfectly happy to continue doing so in the future.
The issue is whether or not an organisation that sanctifies individual action and self-determination can in fact also have a hierarchy based on one person controlling the actions of a multitude of others without appearing to be taking a hypocritical position.
Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori
It's great being Amarr, ain't it? |
Backalley Anna
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.01.22 17:25:00 -
[19]
I must admit, it never ceases to amaze me the hold such imperial memes can have on a closed mind. I know, as I was once one of you. It is not only for the aesthetic value that we often use broken shackles in our imagery. It is truly representative of the feeling one achieves when you just let go of that self-inflicted mental bondage.
Is it really so hard to wrap your brain around the simple idea that an anarchist can *choose* to accept orders from another? My crews, oft comprised of militants, have signed on by their own volition to fly with me and accept my command. In return for their acceptance and trust, I provide pay, entertainment and excitement while in the pursuit of our cause. When I command my vessels under the lead of a fellow Free Captain, it is by my choice and by extension, the acceptance of my crew. My trust in my fellows and my crewÆs trust in me allow this to chain of command to function smoothly in the heat of battle. Free Captains are not ôorderedö to obey, we choose to cooperate.
Oh, and the title Free Captain really does not require quotes. I have never been ordered in battle by an acting Fleet Commander to do any action contrary to my wishes. Unorthodox? Certainly. Bold? Most assuredly, but never something I did not want to do.
Our standing agreement is that when you ask to join a fleet, you accept the battle command of the Fleet Commander. My crews (and I would assume my fellow Free CaptainÆs crews as well, although I do not speak for them) fly with me under the same understanding. Like any Free Captain, they are free to leave at any time they choose to no longer maintain the chain of command needed to operate a vessel.
"Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done." R.A. Heinlein |
Tomahawk Bliss
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Posted - 2007.01.22 17:35:00 -
[20]
wait a minute Aria Jenneth! Are you saying you opposed the liberation of the proletariat?
Gogo Yubari> You can't destroy your enemy with the power of thought alone like many forum-warriors seem to think.
GLBTA Channel |
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The Cosmopolite
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.01.22 18:17:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Rodj Blake
You seem to have misunderstood the point, The. It wouldn't be the first time.
Coming from somebody who apparently doesn't understand the use of the definite article, that's hardly a wounding thrust.
As it is, you gallop off in a new direction in an attempt to misdirect.
Quote:
The issue is not whether or not PIE Inc. as an organisation uses slaves. We have a history of doing so, and are perfectly happy to continue doing so in the future.
Tell it to Merdaneth then. He is the one that took umbrage at being described as an Amarrian paramilitary and a supporter of slavery on the basis of his membership of your bunch of renegades and defrocked priests.
He either supports slavery, in which case my assumptions were not only reasonable but well-founded, or he doesn't, in which case he holds views at odds with basic tenets of the Amarrian faith which the PIE mob has long sought to uphold.
Your crass and incompetent attempt at rhetorical legerdemain does nothing to cloak the fact that his poor attempt at a jibe laid him open to a simple question as to his true beliefs. He can either answer or luxuriate in his own eloquent silence and the rasping of your bile-flecked tongue.
Quote:
The issue is whether or not an organisation that sanctifies individual action and self-determination can in fact also have a hierarchy based on one person controlling the actions of a multitude of others without appearing to be taking a hypocritical position.
If the hierarchy is within the context of a free-association and there is voluntary agreement to its terms on the part of each and every individual participating then it can. It's a simple enough concept but one that continues to elude those fascinated, in every sense, by outdated notions of 'nation', 'empire' and 'order'.
The Cosmopolite
The Star Fraction Recruitment |
Jasmine Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.01.22 18:23:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Merdaneth
Also, as a 'Free Captain' you should know better than to judge me solely by my racial background and organization I belong too. Or is reducing individuals to mere stereotypes typical of the Star Fraction philosphy? I thought individual responsibility was one of their highest ideals?
Where is the problem with holding you to consequence from the choice of your association Merdaneth? Its a fairly simple matter. You wear the indentifying marks of PIE Inc - a faded and lacklustre shadow of what was once a fairly competent slaver militia. These days your corporation hides in the shadow of the CVA and holds military parades to remember past glories while indulging in half-hearted interventions that impress nobody.
What does this tell me about you? Well, you're clearly a supporter of oppressive imperial memetics by your association, but you're not good enough at what you do to join the real Amarri power block in the CVA. Hence you prefer to lurk in the colours of PIE and bask in the mediocrity of that connection. Half-hearted galnet oppressor with very little capability to indulge in your persuasions in space.
Your evidently "limited" talent for debate only proves this assessment and not even an attempted "save" from the enthusiastically-innept Rodj Blake can save you from public annhiliation at the wit of Cosmopolite at this juncture.
What else do we need to know?
Star Fraction is recruiting
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Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.01.22 18:25:00 -
[23]
Originally by: The Cosmopolite
Originally by: Rodj Blake
You seem to have misunderstood the point, The. It wouldn't be the first time.
Coming from somebody who apparently doesn't understand the use of the definite article, that's hardly a wounding thrust.
As it is, you gallop off in a new direction in an attempt to misdirect.
Well, I figured that since we'd been sparring verbally for so long, we should be on first name terms by now. You should consider it a great honour, The.
Rather than galloping off in a new direction, I was providing some clarification to prevent your deliberate misunderstanding of people's comments obfuscating the truth.
Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori
It's great being Amarr, ain't it? |
Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.01.22 18:26:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Jasmine Constantine
You wear the indentifying marks of PIE Inc - a faded and lacklustre shadow of what was once a fairly competent slaver militia. These days your corporation hides in the shadow of the CVA and holds military parades to remember past glories while indulging in half-hearted interventions that impress nobody.
Such comments never fail to amuse me. It's only a week or two since people were claiming that the CVA were PIE lapdogs.
Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori
It's great being Amarr, ain't it? |
Jasmine Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.01.22 18:31:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Originally by: Jasmine Constantine
You wear the indentifying marks of PIE Inc - a faded and lacklustre shadow of what was once a fairly competent slaver militia. These days your corporation hides in the shadow of the CVA and holds military parades to remember past glories while indulging in half-hearted interventions that impress nobody.
Such comments never fail to amuse me. It's only a week or two since people were claiming that the CVA were PIE lapdogs.
I don't recall us making any such claim. I think we described the CVA as being your "sugar daddies" who stepped in when you lost some ships and started crying for your mothers.
Star Fraction is recruiting
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Merdaneth
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.01.22 18:50:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Backalley Anna
I must admit, it never ceases to amaze me the hold such imperial memes can have on a closed mind. I know, as I was once one of you.
This only serves to show that you are particularly vulnerable to contagion by passing memes. It won't be long before your own organization discovers this stain and murders you as a dangerous contagion vector. No, don't take my word for it, listen to Tatsue Nuko
Originally by: Backalley Anna
Is it really so hard to wrap your brain around the simple idea that an anarchist can *choose* to accept orders from another?
Not at all. It is just hard for me to understand that a so-called self-interested individual will willingly accept orders that lead to his or her certain death, while they are just whim of their bored superiors who are looking for enterainment.
If people have been properly taught, they will feel themselves part of a greater whole, feel part of a cause that goes beyond their usual egoistical self-interest. I believe such people are capable of great sacrifices like risking their lives. But by what I gather, those are the kind of people Star Fraction wants to eradicate, so I assume such people don't serve aboard Fraction starships.
Originally by: Backalley Anna
Free Captains are not ôorderedö to obey, we choose to cooperate.
Actually, I could say the same of my slaves. A different choice of words does not mean that no strict hierarchy is present. If the members of the Cyrene Initiative said that they "chose" to cooperate with their leadership, Star Fraction will still kill them for being weak and infected with inferior memes. SF would say that they need to "choose" differently.
Originally by: Backalley Anna
Oh, and the title Free Captain really does not require quotes.
I just quoted it because 'Captain' indicates rank and thus a pre-structured hierarchy to me. A 'Free Captain' sounds odd to me, much like 'Unmarried Husband' sounds.
Still, I thank you for your explanation. Even though I still don't fully understand the philosphy behind the Star Fraction, you examples did give me more insight in their inner workings.
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The Cosmopolite
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.01.22 18:51:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Well, I figured that since we'd been sparring verbally for so long, we should be on first name terms by now. You should consider it a great honour, The.
Rather, I consider myself fortunate to have an opponent who not being content to display his stupidity once, stubbornly insists on going through his clown act once more, as if baring his red-painted, pockmarked and hairy buttocks would be funnier a second time round.
Quote:
Rather than galloping off in a new direction, I was providing some clarification to prevent your deliberate misunderstanding of people's comments obfuscating the truth.
There was no misunderstanding whatever. Your paramilitary comrade expressed dismay that I refused to be given a lecture on 'subservient' levies aboard ship by a supporter of slavery and attempted a rhetorical gambit without anticipating the entirely legitimate deadpan response. In other words, like you, he failed utterly to hit his mark.
As I had surmised in advance, the paramilitary in question is a supporter of slavery and indeed a keeper of slaves himself. His complaint was therefore purest bluster, exceeded in its moist desperation only by your own typically empty hoots.
The Cosmopolite
The Star Fraction Recruitment |
Bruno Bonner
Gallente
Eve University
Ivy League
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Posted - 2007.01.22 18:56:00 -
[28]
This whole conversation has just invited me to think in a curious situation. For argument's sake let's assume Star Fraction have succeeded on their quest.
They have defeated the imperialist memetics, hole planets have adopted the post-humanist movement they are free to do as they wish. If in this reality a person wishes to follow a leader, a concept and establish some kind of "community" system that ensures order and sa***uard for everyone.
Will SF kill them in the name of fractionism? have you considered that some people need memetics in order to feel secure? that they "belong" to something? will SF be the natural selection tool that weeds out the weak from the strong? the ones who are fractionists and those who aren't?
Wouldnt then your organization become the very thing you wish to destroy? a scheme? a non-functional memetic order that needs to be abolished?.
If there is society scheme that ensures a minimal degree of survival for its members, how can the post-humanism flourish?
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aka BinderAJ |
Azure Skyclad
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.01.22 18:56:00 -
[29]
Try a hammer and chisel Cosmo.
Failing that, we could order a good quantity of PIE clones and use the skulls as armour plate.
It's thick enough.
http://www.voodoorockers.co.uk/ |
Merdaneth
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.01.22 19:02:00 -
[30]
Originally by: The Cosmopolite
Tell it to Merdaneth then. He is the one that took umbrage at being described as an Amarrian paramilitary and a supporter of slavery on the basis of his membership of your bunch of renegades and defrocked priests.
You keep assuming and assuming Cosmopolite. Now you even assume I took umbrage. It is time you started asking questions and gathering information.
My point was (next to the one excellenty made by vice-admiral Blake) that the correctness of your assumption is irrelevant. I merely pointed out that the making of broad and sweeping assumption didn't seem to fit with the Star Fraction philosophy.
You, The Cosmopolite, did not consider me as an individual, you just considered me a the extension of a group and of a race, and from that you immediately made all kinds of conclusions.
I simply said that I expected more from someone that espoused individual responsibility above all others. I expected you to examine each individual case on its own.
Your assumption were certainly reasonable, they were well founded, and some were even true! But they were assumptions and not facts. Once you start acting upon assumptions based on race or group membership, then I think you are tossing that individual responsibility you hold so high straight out the window.
Maybe you should seek out another Star Fraction member who can murder you, for you seem to be infected with the wrong memes.
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