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Merdaneth
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.01.23 22:43:00 -
[61]
Originally by: The Cosmopolite
Originally by: "Merdaneth"
Hurrr. A... B... C...
Originally by: "Nomakai Delateriel"
Grunt. *fffplt... plop* Ug.
Zoo's open it seems.
The Cosmopolite
Come all and read what great new ideas someone that acts with enlightened self-interest can produce, the wonder!
Really Cosmopolite, I had expected a bit more from one as erudite and obviously intelligent as yourself. What are you reasons for lowering yourself to this level?
I would appreciate a serious response from you. Obviously my attempt at a translation is not 100% accurate, but I did the best I could with the data given me. I am not perfect and don't claim to be.
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The Cosmopolite
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.01.23 22:54:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Merdaneth
Really Cosmopolite, I had expected a bit more from one as erudite and obviously intelligent as yourself. What are you reasons for lowering yourself to this level?
I would appreciate a serious response from you. Obviously my attempt at a translation is not 100% accurate, but I did the best I could with the data given me. I am not perfect and don't claim to be.
It's very simple. You are a liar. Several of your posts on this thread have contained what I judge to be deliberate falsehoods and distortions, not least your 'translation' which is wilfully inaccurate.
So, I am done with you and I will not accord you, or people that act like you, any respect whatever.
On the other hand, people like Aria Jenneth, who I may disagree with but at least is not dishonest and is willing to use her mind, I will engage with in the spirit of open discourse.
So, peddle your lies all you wish. I am sure the weak-minded will lap them up but I have no need to engage with them. Your anti-intellectualism and your flagrant dishonesty speak volumes to those that have ears to hear and eyes to see.
The Cosmopolite
The Star Fraction Recruitment |
Nomakai Delateriel
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.01.23 23:15:00 -
[63]
Originally by: The Cosmopolite
Zoo's open it seems.
The Cosmopolite
Ah. Give the ol' affiliations between BoB and the Jericho Fraction I'm not suprised that you've picked up a few tricks from them (or the other way around?) on GalNet warfare 101.
Technique no.1 when given a hostile answer: 1. Sidestep. 2. Retort with Ad Hominem
Now I'm just waiting for step 3: "Blob it" according to the theory that a thousand lies and insults are worth more than one truth.
But to take it to a more civilized level. I have yet to see a single satisfactory answer from the Star Fraction why:
1. Everything won't go to the abyss if they succeed or even make the slightest progress. 2. Any viable suggestion to what is supposed to happen if they win, other than the total anarchy where the person with the biggest guns wins. "Self-reliance" is all nice and dandy but self-reliance in a rifter (or even many rifters) won't solve anything against Battleships if there are no safe places to retreat to and no places where they assemble resources in peace. 3. Any viable suggestion of how their "program" for implementing their ideas is actually working out. As far as I know they've simply employed an advanced form of school bullying to make their opponents say "Please, I'll say that Star Fraction is the coolest, just don't hit me again". You can't kill ideas when their vessels simply reincarnate even angrier and more bitter. Hatred is a meme that is alot more viable than love.
The whole anarchaic reign of free captains just built on a strange fiction that all people are essentially good (and I don't just mean "almost everyone" I mean "everyone"). In the end it's just a futile battle that won't serve anyone except the Star Fraction itself (and only in the hedonistic sense) and possibly the potential and proverbial "shining knight in white armor" that crushes the Star Fractions military might (due to the prestige of beating one of the more experienced corperations in EVE).
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Merdaneth
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.01.23 23:16:00 -
[64]
Originally by: The Cosmopolite
It's very simple. You are a liar. Several of your posts on this thread have contained what I judge to be deliberate falsehoods and distortions, not least your 'translation' which is wilfully inaccurate.
I take offense at your accusation. Rare are the occasions that somebody has ever called me a liar. Anyone who knows me can tell you that I hold truth in the highest regard. I can agree that I might not always be tactful, and often too blunt or forceful in my approach. But a liar? Most certainly not.
I recall correctly, you were the one who thought it neccessary to repeatedly make assumption about my character and about my motivations, and attack those. And you have now resorted to attacks upon my person, instead of responding to my arguments.
What else can I now conclude but I must have touched up an issue that is very sensitive to you, something you feel deeply insecure about that you can't even stand to converse with me anymore?
You can certainly decree people that offend you 'weak-minded' and 'not deserving respect'. I still respect you, even though I am hurt by your vicious personal attacks, but I still don't agree with you.
To me it appears you are the one who just wants to preach, while I actually want to engage in open discourse. How's that for irony?
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Se'la Rox
Caldari Contempo Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.01.23 23:18:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Se''la Rox on 23/01/2007 23:20:49 I find it interesting that every faction organisation seems ready, willing and able to state their aims and objectives in the space of a couple of succinct sentences (or less), while Star Fraction appear to only be able to create an essay with a few vague notions thrown in for good measure.
Quality not quantity I'd have thought when it comes to spreading an idea. Star Fraction seems content to harp on about the virtues of flexibility and efficiency. It's a shame only the former has any bearing on your communications.
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Jasmine Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.01.23 23:57:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel But to take it to a more civilized level. I have yet to see a single satisfactory answer from the Star Fraction why:
1. Everything won't go to the abyss if they succeed or even make the slightest progress.
For you everything will. The universe will change and your constant articles of faith will disappear.
Quote: 2. Any viable suggestion to what is supposed to happen if they win, other than the total anarchy where the person with the biggest guns wins.
Read the answers given in many threads on the subject.
Quote: "Self-reliance" is all nice and dandy but self-reliance in a rifter (or even many rifters) won't solve anything against Battleships if there are no safe places to retreat to and no places where they assemble resources in peace.
Tell it to people who haven't destroyed tyrant battleships in rifters.
Quote: 3. Any viable suggestion of how their "program" for implementing their ideas is actually working out. As far as I know they've simply employed an advanced form of school bullying to make their opponents say "Please, I'll say that Star Fraction is the coolest, just don't hit me again".
Faith in nationalist structure is reduced, the meme loosens its grip. Some are freed. Each conflict frees a couple of dozen minds from the status quo. Thats progress.
Quote: You can't kill ideas when their vessels simply reincarnate even angrier and more bitter. Hatred is a meme that is alot more viable than love.
Only they don't all turn out that way. Some reincarnate asking questions and questioning their past affiliation and striving. Where do you think fractionists come from anyway?
Quote: The whole anarchaic reign of free captains just built on a strange fiction that all people are essentially good (and I don't just mean "almost everyone" I mean "everyone").
No thats your flawed and idiotic misunderstanding of our position. Lets not confuse it with what we actually say shall we?
Quote: In the end it's just a futile battle that won't serve anyone except the Star Fraction itself (and only in the hedonistic sense) and possibly the potential and proverbial "shining knight in white armor" that crushes the Star Fractions military might (due to the prestige of beating one of the more experienced corperations in EVE).
Your time will come.
Star Fraction is recruiting
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Jasmine Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.01.23 23:59:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Merdaneth I take offense at your accusation. Rare are the occasions that somebody has ever called me a liar. Anyone who knows me can tell you that I hold truth in the highest regard. I can agree that I might not always be tactful, and often too blunt or forceful in my approach. But a liar? Most certainly not.
If you take offense you have the option to petition your CEO to declare a formal war (again). Maybe this time it could be more than "fleet manouvres" (as far and fast away from undocked SF ships as possible).
Star Fraction is recruiting
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Jasmine Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.01.24 00:02:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Se'la Rox I find it interesting that every faction organisation seems ready, willing and able to state their aims and objectives in the space of a couple of succinct sentences (or less), while Star Fraction appear to only be able to create an essay with a few vague notions thrown in for good measure.
I find it interesting that we seem to have struck on a endless supply of nonsense-spouting galnet halfwits to prattle out futile criticism with no understanding of the issues or detail. Perhaps Caldari Nationalism is the cause for you sir?
Star Fraction is recruiting
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The Cosmopolite
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.01.24 00:10:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Merdaneth
I take offense at your accusation. Rare are the occasions that somebody has ever called me a liar. Anyone who knows me can tell you that I hold truth in the highest regard. I can agree that I might not always be tactful, and often too blunt or forceful in my approach. But a liar? Most certainly not.
I recall correctly, you were the one who thought it neccessary to repeatedly make assumption about my character and about my motivations, and attack those. And you have now resorted to attacks upon my person, instead of responding to my arguments.
Another lie. Is it pathological?
You speak of your distaste for assumptions a lot but you have made a number yourself and when corrected on a point you were either too stupid to understand, and I can't quite credit that you are so stupid, or you wilfully disregarded the correction and repeated a falsehood.
A deliberate, wilful falsehood is a lie. You have spouted such repeatedly and you are therefore a liar. Moreover, you have deliberately misrepresented me, under my name, not with a translation, which would be to overdignify it, but with doggerel containing a number of misleading and false rephrasings.
You are dishonest and intellectually bankrupt. There's simply no point in carrying on a reasoned discussion with you.
I'm hopeful you will at least have the good grace to leave this thread clear for people with open minds to engage with Aria's contribution and those who address it in a serious and honest spirit.
That's probably too much to hope for but you may surprise me yet.
The Cosmopolite
The Star Fraction Recruitment |
The Cosmopolite
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.01.24 00:17:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Se'la Rox
I find it interesting that every faction organisation seems ready, willing and able to state their aims and objectives in the space of a couple of succinct sentences (or less), while Star Fraction appear to only be able to create an essay with a few vague notions thrown in for good measure.
The initiator of this thread posted a reasoned, lengthy and openly enquiring piece. I did her the courtesy of replying at the length and in the detail that her post merited.
If you can't stand discourse of this kind, you might have stayed out of the thread once you saw the length and quality of the original post. It was clearly far above your capabilities.
The Cosmopolite
The Star Fraction Recruitment |
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Se'la Rox
Caldari Contempo Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.01.24 00:19:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Se''la Rox on 24/01/2007 00:24:30
Originally by: Jasmine Constantine I find it interesting that we seem to have struck on a endless supply of nonsense-spouting galnet halfwits to prattle out futile criticism with no understanding of the issues or detail. Perhaps Caldari Nationalism is the cause for you sir?
It's a perfectly valid point. I noticed you didn't actually reply to it, you went straight for the usual insults. Are you worried that you don't actually have an answer?
I see a pattern emerging...
Originally by: The Cosmopolite The initiator of this thread posted a reasoned, lengthy and openly enquiring piece. I did her the courtesy of replying at the length and in the detail that her post merited.
If you can't stand discourse of this kind, you might have stayed out of the thread once you saw the length and quality of the original post. It was clearly far above your capabilities.
You turned out a wonderful piece of prose, I'll grant you that. You still missed the main point of my observation, that collectively you seem incapable of simply stating your point without the need for the endless, overly-elaborate script.
I'd have a significantly increased respect for Star Fraction if they simple came out and said what they meant instead of weaving tangled webs of prose with no actual point. It's far more efficient. Oh, and if you can do it without throwing insults and anyone who's notStar Fraction, it'd be a start.
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Jasmine Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.01.24 00:27:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Se'la Rox
Originally by: Jasmine Constantine I find it interesting that we seem to have struck on a endless supply of nonsense-spouting galnet halfwits to prattle out futile criticism with no understanding of the issues or detail. Perhaps Caldari Nationalism is the cause for you sir?
It's a perfectly valid point. I noticed you didn't actually reply to it, you went straight for the usual insults. Are you worried that you don't actually have an answer? I see a pattern emerging...
You see it as valid. I see it as yet more pointless rattling. Who is right? We both think we are. This is how wars start.
Star Fraction is recruiting
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RedSky Hail
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Posted - 2007.01.24 00:28:00 -
[73]
It appears that this thread has no topic anymore but the following:
1. alot of Cyrene absense on galnet 2. Star Fractions inability to answer any question asked 3. The inability of any form of anarchy to exist due to hardwired instincts and not memes. 4. The attempts at self defense to Star Fractions numerous Ad Hominem attacks.
so really, this is going nowhere.
And Aria,(as well as other intellectuals here)
Good job at making an intelligent post(s). It saddens me that you will never get your answers or a response that does not dodge the topic or ridicule you.
Star Fraction,
Flame away. I wouldnt expect any more than that from you.
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Jasmine Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.01.24 00:32:00 -
[74]
Originally by: RedSky Hail It appears that this thread has no topic anymore but the following: 2. Star Fractions inability to answer any question asked
I see absolutely no question asked in a civil tongue that has not been answered. You sir are a liar.
Star Fraction is recruiting
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Ly'sol
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Posted - 2007.01.24 00:32:00 -
[75]
Tatsue,
I know why the current campaign is focused were it is at the moment. Any semi-literate ape whose mind isn't wrapped around politcal propaganda can understand that.
What I see, is failing to understand is these two bit corporations that wish to run in circles waving the banner of thier respective racially polarized cultures are quite frankly not the ones sowing the seeds of imperialism as the frontier alliances are attempting to do. You want to strike at the pod pilots that are spreading 20,000 years of regression. The frontiers are the prime targets doing the most damage.
Originally by: Jasmine Constantine
Originally by: Ly'sol Rabble Rabble Rabble
RWAAAK RWAAAK
First, I speak for myself. Second, although it wasnĘt the intent, I would have thought it would have taken more to bruise your ego. ItĘs a shame while you were reeling in your selfish emotions of being insulted or disgusted that you completely missed the message.
Bliss, <smiles> Ass.
Click here for Lysol's Linky Library-last updated 30NOV06 |
icewind4
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.01.24 00:34:00 -
[76]
Originally by: RedSky Hail It appears that this thread has no topic anymore but the following:
1. alot of Cyrene absense on galnet 2. Star Fractions inability to answer any question asked 3. The inability of any form of anarchy to exist due to hardwired instincts and not memes. 4. The attempts at self defense to Star Fractions numerous Ad Hominem attacks.
so really, this is going nowhere.
And Aria,(as well as other intellectuals here)
Good job at making an intelligent post(s). It saddens me that you will never get your answers or a response that does not dodge the topic or ridicule you.
Star Fraction,
Flame away. I wouldnt expect any more than that from you.
And people like you heckling from the cheapseats?
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Jasmine Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.01.24 00:35:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Ly'sol Tatsue,
I know why the current campaign is focused were it is at the moment. Any semi-literate ape whose mind isn't wrapped around politcal propaganda can understand that.
What I see, is failing to understand is these two bit corporations that wish to run in circles waving the banner of thier respective racially polarized cultures are quite frankly not the ones sowing the seeds of imperialism as the frontier alliances are attempting to do. You want to strike at the pod pilots that are spreading 20,000 years of regression. The frontiers are the prime targets doing the most damage.
Originally by: Jasmine Constantine
Originally by: Ly'sol Rabble Rabble Rabble
RWAAAK RWAAAK
First, I speak for myself. Second, although it wasnĘt the intent, I would have thought it would have taken more to bruise your ego. ItĘs a shame while you were reeling in your selfish emotions of being insulted or disgusted that you completely missed the message.
Bliss, <smiles> Ass.
Remember why you left Jericho Fraction Ly'sol? I do.
Star Fraction is recruiting
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Se'la Rox
Caldari Contempo Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.01.24 00:39:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Jasmine Constantine You see it as valid. I see it as yet more pointless rattling. Who is right? We both think we are. This is how wars start.
I'd be interested to know why you think that? Are observations that aren't liked by the Star Fraction to be instantly dismissed? Or are they to be answered truthfully? Is a simple question too much for Star Fraction? Does it infringe your ideology? I would have thought that freedom of speech would be very much part of the ultimate agenda of your organisation. Or is your organisation not looking for freedom?
I guarantee that one or two honest answers you'd win more support than already possess.
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The Cosmopolite
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.01.24 00:41:00 -
[79]
Originally by: RedSky Hail And Aria,(as well as other intellectuals here) Good job at making an intelligent post(s). It saddens me that you will never get your answers or a response that does not dodge the topic or ridicule you.
Star Fraction,
Flame away. I wouldnt expect any more than that from you.
Of course you wouldn't. You haven't read the thread properly or you would see that I replied to Aria's points very specifically and at the length and detail that her reasoned exposition called for with absolutely no ridicule.
It is not Star Fraction members that disrespect Aria and her desire for discussion. It is the hoard of anti-intellectual yahoos that descend on the thread whenever someone seeks to engage with the actual topic.
The Cosmopolite
The Star Fraction Recruitment |
Ly'sol
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Posted - 2007.01.24 00:41:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Jasmine Constantine
Originally by: Ly'sol Tatsue,
I know why the current campaign is focused were it is at the moment. Any semi-literate ape whose mind isn't wrapped around politcal propaganda can understand that.
What I see, is failing to understand is these two bit corporations that wish to run in circles waving the banner of thier respective racially polarized cultures are quite frankly not the ones sowing the seeds of imperialism as the frontier alliances are attempting to do. You want to strike at the pod pilots that are spreading 20,000 years of regression. The frontiers are the prime targets doing the most damage.
Originally by: Jasmine Constantine
Originally by: Ly'sol Rabble Rabble Rabble
RWAAAK RWAAAK
First, I speak for myself. Second, although it wasnĘt the intent, I would have thought it would have taken more to bruise your ego. ItĘs a shame while you were reeling in your selfish emotions of being insulted or disgusted that you completely missed the message.
Bliss, <smiles> Ass.
Remember why you left Jericho Fraction Ly'sol? I do.
We all carry chains. Some take longer to throw off than others. I've tried to leave them behind me. That man you knew then was several clones in the past.
Still, the reasons why i left, and my personal beliefs towards a better future have no bearing. It does not make what I say any less valid. Click here for Lysol's Linky Library-last updated 30NOV06 |
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Nomakai Delateriel
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.01.24 00:42:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Jasmine Constantine No thats your flawed and idiotic misunderstanding of our position. Lets not confuse it with what we actually say shall we?
Or maybe you havn't truly understood the implications of your anarchaic theorem? Cooperation is caused by two things.
1. Mutual benefit in production, specialization etc. Believe me, specialization is still necessary. Not at pod pilot level, because we're managers and captains but at the lower level. Engineers, scientists, farmers and any number of various professions.
2. Mutual benefit in warding off threats. As long as threats exists there will be alliances formed against them, based on mutually beneficial terms. Since these threats will be long-term the alliances formed against them will be long-term. Spanning generations actually.
Long term cooperation in increasing efficiency and warding off internal and external threats is the foundation of a community, and to handle the increasing workload and ensure Justice and fair treatment all of these functions are increasingly ritualised to take on the trappings of a state. As God designed, not through automagical means but through the make up of each component in the system. Just like water will arrange itself in hexagonal structures etc.
All in all the state is the upholder of Necessary Common Values, Necessary Common Rules, Necessary Trust and Necessary Exchange of Goods. When there is a need to uphold either of these four values (ie, the lack of utter and complete goodness) the state will form and grow, and grow, and grow until it reaches a point where the balance between external threats and the growing inefficiency in the bureaucracy is at an equilibrium.
Only at the elimination of all evil will the state become redundant. It will change and adapt to meet changing demands, but it will remain. A bastion of civilization and hope.
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WraithFire
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Posted - 2007.01.24 00:42:00 -
[82]
Haha.... PIE is as pityful as it gets. Though I would suggest that SF cancel the war against Cyrene and whip PIE and CVA's rear once more. It seems that they dunno how to shut their trap.
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Jasmine Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.01.24 00:44:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Se'la Rox I'd be interested to know why you think that?
Certainly.
Quote: Are observations that aren't liked by the Star Fraction to be instantly dismissed? Or are they to be answered truthfully?
If the observation is a question it is often answered. If the observation is crass and poor it is often dismissed.
Quote: Is a simple question too much for Star Fraction? Does it infringe your ideology?
Not in the slightest.
Quote: I would have thought that freedom of speech would be very much part of the ultimate agenda of your organisation. Or is your organisation not looking for freedom?
Of course freedom of speech is respected. As is freedom of response. You are free to say what you want - I am free to dismiss it if I judge it to be irrelevent piffle.
Quote: I guarantee that one or two honest answers you'd win more support than already possess.
Its worth noting that on the whole we prefer the support of people who act in space over those who only chatter on galnet.
Star Fraction is recruiting
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Se'la Rox
Caldari Contempo Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.01.24 00:55:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Jasmine Constantine Of course freedom of speech is respected. As is freedom of response. You are free to say what you want - I am free to dismiss it if I judge it to be irrelevent piffle.
In the same way as you have the freedom to wage war against anyone and everyone whose opinions you deem irrelevant? If that observation is incorrect, please enlighten me as to why.
Originally by: Jasmine Constantine
Its worth noting that on the whole we prefer the support of people who act in space over those who only chatter on galnet.
You're assuming I had certain people in mind. My point was a general one.
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Garreck
Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.24 00:55:00 -
[85]
Originally by: WraithFire whip PIE and CVA's rear once more. It seems that they dunno how to shut their trap.
And it seems you need a history lesson.
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RedSky Hail
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Posted - 2007.01.24 00:59:00 -
[86]
funny.
I point out ad hominem and i am replied with it.
REALLY Funny.
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Jasmine Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.01.24 01:38:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Se'la Rox In the same way as you have the freedom to wage war against anyone and everyone whose opinions you deem irrelevant? If that observation is incorrect, please enlighten me as to why.
We wage war against memetic contagion vectors. That is where it begins and ends.
Quote: You're assuming I had certain people in mind. My point was a general one.
I'll thank you not to put words into my mouth. My point was a general one as well. You spoke of us losing the support of people posting nonsense on this thread. I informed you we don't much care for the support of people whose primary impact on galactic politics is ill-informed peanut-gallery criticism. Show me you have the capability to achieve something of note and perhaps I'll take you seriously?
Star Fraction is recruiting
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Tharrn
Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard Vigilia Valeria
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Posted - 2007.01.24 01:53:00 -
[88]
The day the Star Fraction starts to wage all out war against the entity currently expanding it's territorial claims the fastest, is the day I believe they are not just making up page after page of bloated nonsense to come up with excuses to pick on juicy targets.
When will the contagion vector BoB be targeted for extermination?
Now recruiting!
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RedSky Hail
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Posted - 2007.01.24 01:55:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Tharrn The day the Star Fraction starts to wage all out war against the entity currently expanding it's territorial claims the fastest, is the day I believe they are not just making up page after page of bloated nonsense to come up with excuses to pick on juicy targets.
When will the contagion vector BoB be targeted for extermination?
NEVER tharrn.. dont you understand?
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Jasmine Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.01.24 01:55:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Tharrn The day the Star Fraction starts to wage all out war against the entity currently expanding it's territorial claims the fastest, is the day I believe they are not just making up page after page of bloated nonsense to come up with excuses to pick on juicy targets. When will the contagion vector BoB be targeted for extermination?
When will you stop wriggling to get out of the crosshairs? Your time will come Slaver.
Star Fraction is recruiting
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