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Kharakan
Amarr
Morticus Impendium
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Posted - 2007.01.24 17:39:00 -
[121]
((Not only that, this was announced on chatsubo too, as an *OOC eyes only* venture and I know you/jade frequent that forum. What's your excuse?))
this signature space is claimed in the name of eris, haha I got to him first. neeneer
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Tatsue Nuko
Tabula Rasa Systems
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.01.24 17:42:00 -
[122]
( That site is pretty much 100% IC and voiced as public releases etc. Mistake made maybe, but one that can happen quite easily in that circumstance. )
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Karass Sayfo
Forum Moderator
Interstellar Services Department
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Posted - 2007.01.24 18:02:00 -
[123]
The Communications Relay Committee has detected illegal linkage to referenced archives that do not exist and/or contain information that go against FTL regulations. The FTL communications themselves have been removed and sent to our analysts for further investigations. Should further issues occur or you have any concerns, please contact us directly at our Yulai office at mods@ccpgames.com
- Karass Sayfo, Lt.
((I have been keeping a close eye on this thread, and due to the referenced  Quote:
Most of the entries are private so it's appreciated that they stay out-of-character knowledge to the reader.
I see this as usage of OOC information used ICly against posters. Please remain on-topic and refrain from using/posting OOC on the IGS. Thanks!  ))
_______
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The Cosmopolite
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.01.24 18:46:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Aria Jenneth
You're seeking an enlightened world. How can you reach that if, as a byproduct of your approach, people are afraid to extend a hand across the void, lest it be shot off?
Given the remarks of your leader, Yuki Li, you may well speak of shooting off hands extended across the void.
I had thought you, and one who privately spoke to me on your behalf, were being honest, trying to understand and even making approaches towards friendship.
With the intervention of your corporation's command staff in this discussion, in terms that seek to undermine us, I cannot maintain any faith in your claims to be interested in exploring the issues of Fractionist philosophy and policy with a view to understanding them more clearly. When your leadership is in the same thread snidely challenging the legitimacy of our choices, I am forced to consider you may have an ulterior motive. When I think on certain discussions with people using my ship system FTL comms gear, I think it a distinct possibility.
I may be wrong but this GalNet thread has been too much wracked with side-tracking, outright attacks and mulish refusal to understand basic arguments for me to consider it worthwhile disregarding my suspicions and proceeding.
I recommend Star Fraction pilots abandon further discussion on this particular thread as it seems to me to be irretrievably tainted. There will be other opportunities and we are better looking for them than trying to steer this thread back to some semblance of reasoned discourse.
The Cosmopolite
The Star Fraction Recruitment |
Se'la Rox
Caldari
Contempo Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.01.24 18:53:00 -
[125]
I have a few questions, purely for my own information, so I can understand better the motivations and specific aims of The Star Fraction.
Originally by: Tecam Hund
- We want free and open universe where every individual is a sovereign individual.
I nice idea. One question (and it's an honest enquiry before anyone feels the need to roundly defame me): in such a society, who defends the weak, the helpless and those too inexperienced to defend themselves?
Originally by: Tecam Hund
- We expect to achieve it through leading by example and striking against the strongholds of archaic traditions which hold back the humanity.
Such as? What organisations would come under this banner? Does the Star Fraction consider all faction-based organisations inherently against their ideology?
Originally by: Tecam Hund
Those who actively attempt to limit freedom of others and spread imperialism, nationalism and other regressive concepts are dealt with (forcibly if needed) when and if possible.
Again, this would require some clarification. It's a very vague term, which leaves considerable latitude when it comes to interpretation.
A hypothetical scenario:
A corporation is based in a specific constellation within an empire. The corporation views it's main role as defending that area of space from pirate incursion, in order to defend those within the constellation from possible attack (although will not interfere with sanction wars). The other inhabitants of the constellation do not "owe" the corporation anything, and the corporation does not have (or desire) any control over any inhabitants of the constellation. The corporation does not hold control over any resources within the constellation. The corporation is not hostile to any corporation/faction, other than those entities that attack it, and pirate factions who prey upon those who cannot defend themselves. The corporation does intend to expand it's area of operations further ie. is non-expansionist.
Under those (hypothetical) conditions, would the corporation be considered valid as a target for the Star Fraction?
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Jasmine Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.01.24 19:04:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Se'la Rox
I have a few questions, purely for my own information, so I can understand better the motivations and specific aims of The Star Fraction.
Originally by: Tecam Hund
- We want free and open universe where every individual is a sovereign individual.
I nice idea. One question (and it's an honest enquiry before anyone feels the need to roundly defame me): in such a society, who defends the weak, the helpless and those too inexperienced to defend themselves?
Originally by: Tecam Hund
- We expect to achieve it through leading by example and striking against the strongholds of archaic traditions which hold back the humanity.
Such as? What organisations would come under this banner? Does the Star Fraction consider all faction-based organisations inherently against their ideology?
Originally by: Tecam Hund
Those who actively attempt to limit freedom of others and spread imperialism, nationalism and other regressive concepts are dealt with (forcibly if needed) when and if possible.
Again, this would require some clarification. It's a very vague term, which leaves considerable latitude when it comes to interpretation.
A hypothetical scenario:
A corporation is based in a specific constellation within an empire. The corporation views it's main role as defending that area of space from pirate incursion, in order to defend those within the constellation from possible attack (although will not interfere with sanction wars). The other inhabitants of the constellation do not "owe" the corporation anything, and the corporation does not have (or desire) any control over any inhabitants of the constellation. The corporation does not hold control over any resources within the constellation. The corporation is not hostile to any corporation/faction, other than those entities that attack it, and pirate factions who prey upon those who cannot defend themselves. The corporation does intend to expand it's area of operations further ie. is non-expansionist.
Under those (hypothetical) conditions, would the corporation be considered valid as a target for the Star Fraction?
Start your own thread. This one is done.
Star Fraction is recruiting
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Aria Jenneth
Caldari
Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.01.24 20:37:00 -
[127]
To The Cosmopolite:
Yes, Omerta is included in this pattern of hostility. I've not claimed to be otherwise, and, as I've observed, in some ways I'm in a poor position to be conducting this discussion. As I've said, the reasons for which I kill-- protecting Omerta interests, at least in part-- are perhaps less laudible than the reasons for which you do so.
What I am attempting to engage in is not a comparative measure of our respective moralities, or lack thereof. I have no grounds for seeking the high ground in this debate, at least in terms of moral superiority or even equality. What I am asking is not, "Is what you do morally right?" or, "Why don't you do what we do?" but rather, "Will what you do work? Ever?"
The question's an honest one, because it cuts to the very core of my quarrel with Star Fraction. And yes, there is a quarrel, and no, I don't endeavor to hide it.
You express suspicion of my motives; this is reasonable. I will lay them out for you here. Firstly, I'm not doing this at Omerta's bidding, and I would request, before you decide we're collectively seeking to undermine you, that you carefully parse their previous postings. I don't see so much here an attempt to undermine as an attempt on their part to clarify certain other posters' questions (notably the one re: BoB), which your own sweet Jasmine responded to, bluntly, with bile (if, eventually, bile containing a reasonable answer).
Let us be clear on this: the reason I placed this discussion in a public forum is because the answers to the questions I have for you matter, and if you cannot or will not answer, that also matters. Are you likely to convince me of the rightness of your path? Perhaps not. You see much evil where I see only the flaws in otherwise-functional systems. Of the need for absolute freedom, I am unconvinced, but I am also unconvinced that your ideas are entirely wrong.
Your audience here is partly me, but it's also the silent circle of judges who watch us, the ones who do not post, or do so only rarely and do not take a side: you have a chance, here, to test your beliefs, to convince, a broader audience than a single rather embittered essayist. I, in turn, have an opportunity to bring forth what inconsistencies and contradictions appear evident to me, and to have them answered, be it well or poorly, and to have an audience likewise to bear witness.
My moves against Star Fraction stem from a sense that you represent a form of corrupted wisdom, that you (and by this I mean you, specifically, personally, you, as you of all the members I've talked to seem to take your ideas the farthest and to understand them the most fully) think deeply, but become so caught up in your conclusions that you cannot see the monster that you have made of them. It is outright painful to me. I wish to resolve this, be it through confirming that your ideas are sound and that it is I whose view is distorted, or through testing your philosophy to destruction.
That is my motive: to test, in a public forum, the base validity of the Fraction's philosophy. I've brought forth a form of it that I would consider unquestionably valid, even if I do not follow it, and challenged you to compare your path to it. This you have done, but done incompletely, because you seem to have decided that this is some form of trap.
If you cannot defend your beliefs, that is exactly what it is.
My personal issues with Star Fraction remain precisely that, and for this I would request that my fellow members of Omerta add nothing further, lest we further the notion that we, collectively, are opposed to SF. I have no desire to be the cause of renewed conflict between us.
To those of you in the Fraction, this is my challenge: defend your beliefs in this open forum, and if my questions are answered satisfactorily, you may at the least declaw an enemy, at most, make a new ally. If they are not, you will have failed to uphold your philosophy, and that in public.
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Mebrithiel Ju'wien
Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.01.24 21:19:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Aria Jenneth
My personal issues with Star Fraction remain precisely that, and for this I would request that my fellow members of Omerta add nothing further, lest we further the notion that we, collectively, are opposed to SF. I have no desire to be the cause of renewed conflict between us.
As with many beliefs, there are always supporters and opposers within multiple camps. I don't think disparities between peoples personalities and histories here should be in conflict with each of our desires for intellectual development, but should help support incomplete opinions of each others positions.
I don't support Aria's stance on SF due to her history with them, however, Aria is trying very hard to come to understand her previous aggressors motivations and ideals and is being rebuked by immaturity and obstinance. While some of us throughout the capsuleer community admire and condone SF's various actions against manifest out-dated nationalism, I believe Aria wasn't given the opportunity and is still facing rebuttals in her quest to better understand her history with SF.
Instead of letting the discussion end here with silence and simmering hostilities between opposing sides, how about we try again in rationalising each others dispositions and reforming to within a better boundary of philosophical and logical debate.
Jasmine, please don't leave the discussion here on a frustrated nil-point, but try to help Aria in re-evaluating her previous beleifs and address her current issues.
Aria, for this to work, we all need to remove our emotional historical connections from logical debate and analysis and reinsert them at specific points rationally. I believe you're doing the right thing, but it needs to be done in a similarly right manner.
What was I talking about? Where'd I leave my frentix...
www.eve-online.com/evetv |
Kovid
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.01.24 21:38:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Aria Jenneth
"Will what you do work? Ever?"
Yes
Lets take this from a logical and simplified scientific point of view.
If you can excuse the fact the source is from a Star Fraction's observations earlier in the thread:
Quote:
I would say that I find it heartening to see the locals waking up. Upon my early arrival to Stacmon, I ran several errands in the region in preparation for the upcoming conflict, and flew through several gatecamps in lowsec to do it, seeing wrecked ship after wrecked ship dotting the view from the various stargates. Local comms channels were relatively silent.
More recently, the wrecks are less common, the gatecamps are fewer, and generally there is information regarding potential gatecamps being shared in local channels. More than once I have seen locals coming into Stacmon and immediately sharing any information they have about potential pirate threats elsewhere, and have seen more than one individual use said intelligence to plan alternate routes around the threat.
That is taking responsibility for oneself, and demonstrates to me a clear example of individuals throwing off the yoke of complacency and dependence and taking an interest in their own self-preservation and advancement in a way I did not see even two weeks ago in this region.
So if it can work on a small scale it can work on a larger scale, all factors being equal.
If you can not accept a SF observation as neutral I would suggest you travel there yourself. Another option would be to have a third party not already represented here but in good standing with the region and a stake in Placid to comment on their observations.
I have noticed the same things as the original observer with my own eyes.
To be honest I did not expect to see results like these in a short term basis. Results I would have expected would be in a very long time frame, so the jury is still out on this region. However the Fraction is more concerned with the larger scale future of humanity. For now this will do. The large scale result would become post-humanism. Wish us all good luck - not just Star Fraction.
If you see the big picture maybe you would help us, Aria, CYI, and anyone else.
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Aria Jenneth
Caldari
Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.01.24 21:44:00 -
[130]
Meb, if you can point out exactly where it is that my emotions are leaking through, I'll try to do something about it. My feelings on this topic are admittedly very strong, though I hardly think of them as irrational.
Self-analysis and introspection are of central importance to those who follow our religion, and it is difficult for me to witness what I cannot help but believe are distortions of this process. For my own peace of mind, I need to learn whether this is philosophy I see, or a ghastly corruption of it. If it is the former, it deserves vindication; I've done my best to do it harm in the past, and perhaps I may redress some of that by giving it its day in the sun, by playing the questioning student learning at the master's feet. If it is the latter, it deserves nothing but extinction, be it slow or fast, and I'd be proud to be the agent of that ending.
So, as I said, if you see my prejudices leaking through into my work, please inform me of them. I admit to bitterness, and to severe antipathy towards certain specific members of SF, but attempt to keep my thoughts clear in spite of these defects. Emotional judgments have no place in discussions of this sort, though they seem to regularly appear, much like a rash.
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icewind4
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.01.24 22:04:00 -
[131]
Well, I think Aria definately needs help...I think it best that her own corp provides it though.
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Aria Jenneth
Caldari
Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.01.24 22:12:00 -
[132]
Kovid:
You raise a very interesting point. From one angle, your observations do raise the possibility of people taking greater responsibility for themselves due to an increased level of danger-- self-reliance through fear. On the other hand, I would note that this cooperation is, as described, porous and insecure, and, if conditions persist, will tighten into something more enclosed and paranoid. Let me give you an example of my own.
In Mito the other day, I passed a large pirate gate camp in the process of disassembling a passing ship at the Nalvula gate into Vuorrassi. As soon as I'd completed my jump, I flashed a warning signal on Local, to try to spare a few of Vuorrassi's numerous travellers a very unpleasant encounter.
This is the sort of cooperative effort and community good-will you observe above, true?
Well, not twenty seconds after I'd broadcast my message, a second was sent contradicting me, staying that the pirates had left and the gate was clear. Suspicious, I checked the source's record, and sure enough, he was a member of the State War Academy and had been for seven months without variance, a status which screams "pirate scout." This, likewise, I informed Local of, though I do not know how many ships my warning arrived too late to save.
Had the reversal been more artfully conducted, it's likely I would never have noticed it at all, and nor would anyone else. This sort of encounter, the untrustworthy informant, encourages paranoia and reluctance to trust. This, in turn, leads to tightly-knit groups of individuals trusting primarily (even exclusively) each other, or to groups of "defenders" who are generally trusted and depended on-- the very antipirates you decry as encouraging dependency, and to a degree you're right. This is how, in the absence of a central government, feudalism would seed itself.
It's only with a broadening of trust (of the trustworthy, at least) that the society the Fraction dreams of will find its feet. Trust that is easily and profitably abused quickly becomes no trust at all, and until more stable structures (be they formal or otherwise) fall into place, the self-reliance you see is in a constant state of flux. In truth, -everything- is in a constant state of flux, but there are patterns to be found, and I'm sorry to have to strongly suggest that you're seeing only the beginning of this one. The rest, you may not like so well.
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Aria Jenneth
Caldari
Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.01.24 22:24:00 -
[133]
Originally by: icewind4
Well, I think Aria definately needs help...I think it best that her own corp provides it though.
I ... gather from this that you think me insane. I confess I find this appalling, as there was a time when I thought myself so, for thinking the Star Fraction might have a point. If I've mistaken your meaning, I apologize, but if you're not making implications about my mental health, what exactly are you saying?
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Mebrithiel Ju'wien
Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.01.24 22:31:00 -
[134]
Originally by: Aria Jenneth
Emotional judgments have no place in discussions of this sort, though they seem to regularly appear, much like a rash.
Wrong on both counts. Emotions are needed to make the logical discussion accept all inevitabilities. Humanity is still (despite the Jove) a very random organism that can act in completely illogical behaviour.
Also, by challenging their philosophy, you've been allowing previous emotional, personal-history ties and opinions to cloud what should be a clear start point. You must start completely from scratch and let others 'draw' on your white board, then modify it with your experience and questions. It's hard to explain, and I have no idea why I'm saying this.
I just... do well in understanding social behaviour. 
www.eve-online.com/evetv |
Aria Jenneth
Caldari
Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.01.24 22:49:00 -
[135]
I'm not quite sure what you're suggesting, Meb-- that I should go an learn from the Star Fraction with a clear mind, or as clear as I can make it?
This much I've already done, or think I have, having spent rather a lot of hours in La Maison discussing SF philosophy with Fraction members. I also had the dubious distinction of, while still an unmitigated statist, falling in love with a Fractioneer (an event for which I quite regularly thought I should get my head examined). I learned quite a good deal from our conversations, to the point where most Fraction members seem willing to admit that I have at least the essence of their goals pretty well down.
What you see here is the crystalization of quite a bit of research and discussion: I've laid out the only manner I can think of by which SF aims might actually be achieved, especially in a stable, lasting pattern. It's a challenge in that my ideas still do not square with theirs, and I'd like to understand why their way is better than mine. If it is.
While SF as an institution troubles me greatly, I get on quite well with individual members. I don't know whether this is at all what you had in mind, but it doesn't seem to me as though I've come at this from exactly a closed-minded angle.
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Mebrithiel Ju'wien
Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.01.24 22:57:00 -
[136]
Originally by: Aria Jenneth
I'm not quite sure what you're suggesting, Meb-- that I should go an learn from the Star Fraction with a clear mind, or as clear as I can make it?
What?
I don't have a clue what I said either. BUT YOU FELL IN LOVE? Awwww! That's so sweet! 
Seriously, you have got to tell me all about it over an ale!
As to trying to figure out the Fractionites, I'll help ya, but don't expect it to be easy hun. Some of their philosophy is almost as messed up as mine 
www.eve-online.com/evetv |
Kovid
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.01.24 23:11:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Aria Jenneth
Kovid:
You raise a very interesting point. From one angle, your observations do raise the possibility of people taking greater responsibility for themselves due to an increased level of danger-- self-reliance through fear. On the other hand, I would note that this cooperation is, as described, porous and insecure, and, if conditions persist, will tighten into something more enclosed and paranoid. Let me give you an example of my own.
Enclosed and paranoid is what I postulate nationalist borders and 0.0 alliances bring to it's people. Armies fight over what was their territory at one point, or *should* be in the future, among other selfish reasons.
Quote:
In Mito the other day, I passed a large pirate gate camp in the process of disassembling a passing ship at the Nalvula gate into Vuorrassi. As soon as I'd completed my jump, I flashed a warning signal on Local, to try to spare a few of Vuorrassi's numerous travellers a very unpleasant encounter.
This is the sort of cooperative effort and community good-will you observe above, true?
No, I observed the abscence of gate camps, less wrecks, etc.. I haven't been attacked in Placid by any other forces.
Quote:
Well, not twenty seconds after I'd broadcast my message, a second was sent contradicting me, staying that the pirates had left and the gate was clear. Suspicious, I checked the source's record, and sure enough, he was a member of the State War Academy and had been for seven months without variance, a status which screams "pirate scout." This, likewise, I informed Local of, though I do not know how many ships my warning arrived too late to save.
So you were smart enough to not fall for a trap. Everything seems fine.
Quote:
Had the reversal been more artfully conducted, it's likely I would never have noticed it at all, and nor would anyone else. This sort of encounter, the untrustworthy informant, encourages paranoia and reluctance to trust. This, in turn, leads to tightly-knit groups of individuals trusting primarily (even exclusively) each other, or to groups of "defenders" who are generally trusted and depended on-- the very antipirates you decry as encouraging dependency, and to a degree you're right. This is how, in the absence of a central government, feudalism would seed itself.
Had it been done this way or that ... but it did not. You act in self-intrest, saving yourself with intelligence. You did not rely on some defender that may or may not have been there. The more people that act in accordance to this will overrun the ability of so called pirates in every system in New Eden.
Quote:
It's only with a broadening of trust (of the trustworthy, at least) that the society the Fraction dreams of will find its feet. Trust that is easily and profitably abused quickly becomes no trust at all, and until more stable structures (be they formal or otherwise) fall into place, the self-reliance you see is in a constant state of flux. In truth, -everything- is in a constant state of flux, but there are patterns to be found, and I'm sorry to have to strongly suggest that you're seeing only the beginning of this one. The rest, you may not like so well.
I said the Placid region was a beginning, but the aim is the long run. I could requote myself but I'll reiterate this time. The short term benefit is nice to have. But the Fraction is more concerned of things on a longer time frame. The end result is post-humanism as I said before.
Again I reanswer your question of
Quote:
"Will what you do work? Ever?"
Yes
You keep asking more and more questions. I have been as clear as possible. The tones in your questions and certain topics you keep bringing up makes me wonder. But the original question has been answered by Jade, Cosmo, and I have tried to state it more plainly. You have cross examined my response and have answered more questions you brought up.
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Aria Jenneth
Caldari
Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.01.24 23:55:00 -
[138]
Thank you for the prompt response, Kovid.
Firstly, I suppose in response to your observations in Placid that we shall simply have to wait and see. I greatly doubt that you believe this situation will last any more than I do, though I also greatly doubt we would agree completely, at present, on the reasons.
I brought up the "if" for a simple reason: pirates aren't bloody stupid. If they start getting found out, they do the obvious thing and adapt, so "it didn't happen this time" isn't really an adequate answer. It may happen next time, or the time after, and it's never a good idea to depend on your enemy to continue being an idiot.
As for why I'm continuing to ask questions, I ask the questions the answers I receive raise. This isn't just a simple, "I ask a question; you answer it; I'm satisfied." There's a bit more process to this, even if you convince me. That's what a dialogue (multilogue, in this case, I suppose) is, so please don't become frustrated with me over this. So long as I have questions to ask or objections to raise, I remain unconvinced.
On Jade's teachings, I've read them. I admire her talents as a wordsmith greatly; she managed to draw applause for her antiauthoritarian speech from an entire crowd of Caldari nationalists at the Caldari Prime Memorial, most of whom had not a clue what she had just said. Should she decide to add her own voice to this conversation, I will be happy to speak with her, but for now I prefer to deal with those members of the SF, such as yourself, who have deigned to deal with me.
Therefore: a "YES," however heavily emphasized, is not really all the answer I was after. It was, after all, sort of foreordained by the fact that you obviously believe it, or you wouldn't be in SF. I'm much more interested in the why, to which you presented a partial answer, but as observed, I'm not at all sure that what you're seeing is people self-interestedly cooperating or people starting to band together into what will eventually become a stratified hierarchy.
For the record, I did not deliver my warning to Vuorrassi out of a sense of self-interest, except insofar as I wished to deny the pirates their prey. I am no longer a resident of Mito, nor did I need to pass back through Nalvula in order to depart. I recognized no familiar faces in Local, and really didn't have any explicit interest in whether these people lived or died. I gave warning because it seemed like I should. Call it "community spirit," if you will, or "the desire of someone the pirates would willingly have shot down to deny them further prey."
Self interest? Not exactly. If it was enlightened self-interest, it was so very enlightened that I can't actually think of what the benefit (outside of karma) might be.
Also, I have an alternate theory on why Placid is abruptly so peaceful. Could it be that most of the pirates have picked up and left the war zone? Star Fraction doesn't fire on people who don't fire on them first (war targets excepted), but the same can't be said of your Gurista allies. I know the GURIS are in possession of at least a couple capital ships, and word on Placid seems to suggest that the locals might not have been able to take that sort of heat. Could they have moved on to places where they are predators instead of prey? Just a thought.
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Mithrantir Ob'lontra
Gallente
Ixion Defence Systems
The Cyrene Initiative
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Posted - 2007.01.24 23:58:00 -
[139]
Edited by: Mithrantir Ob''lontra on 24/01/2007 23:58:23
Originally by: Kovid
If you can not accept a SF observation as neutral I would suggest you travel there yourself. Another option would be to have a third party not already represented here but in good standing with the region and a stake in Placid to comment on their observations.
I would like to inform you that the same thing was happening before the war with IU started. But after we got our hands tied, things have started to take a slide backwards. I can tell you that because i was operating at Placid long before CYI decided to move there and give a helping hand to the request of Placid Reborn.
Originally by: Kovid
If you see the big picture maybe you would help us, Aria, CYI, and anyone else.
You seem to have the belief that only Star Fraction has the ability to see the big picture. On the same time we were painted as blind nationalists based on info that was either misleading ( i am referring to public communications by a certain member that was proved to be a spy and got booted), or way too old.
No one ever tried and talk to us for our goals and beliefs. We were just labeled blind nationalists and a judgment was put upon us, without us having a chance of talking. It looks like evolution is something that you (read your alliance) is accepting, only if it happens under the threat of your weapons. Well i think that this time, you have come too late.
I even bet that when CYI was awakened (about 6 months ago) you did not take notice of what was going on. The fact that CYI decided to take a stance and defend a corp that was consisted by people that have already defied the borders of the nations and tried to work together, against the very corporation you work with (IU) and the Mordus Legion, must have gone unnoticed to your alliance. The total lack of communications defending the various Federations awkward moves, or our firm opposition to Mr Blaque and his vision of a powerful Federation. A powerful and military strong Federation that any zealot nationalist is dreaming, sadly for you we are not a part of them.
Yes we uphold the ideals of the Federation, for specific reasons. We think that there is potential in them. But on the other hand we don't convert . We are not running the "Bring the old glory of Federation back" campaign. We are not blind to the shortcomings of the current political systems (including the current Federation system). The fact that we choose to oppose them differently than you do, doesn't mean that we support them as your alliance suggest.
I can go on for quite some time, but that would bring me entirely out of topic. All i have to say is this.
You are not the only ones that see the big picture. Evolution is not a process that happens under your pressure only. We are not, who you claim us to be. We have chosen a different path to the same goal.
The minor differences seem to be exaggerated, in order for you to come upon us and claim another bloody victory against something that we are not representatives of (nationalists that see nothing else other than the glory of the Federation). I won't deny that there are people within the alliance that have different opinions. But indeed they are also part of the evolution process. The wide specter is helping to keep the balance.
But i guess that is something that you can't grasp. Your alliance looks more and more radical in their views as time passes. Maybe you should start worrying if you have started to look like the monster you are hunting.
And on top of that you come here and claim that we would help you if we could see the bigger picture. Well we did helped you, in our own way.
You have disgust us by your approach, and frankly i have lost a lot of the respect i had for the Star Fraction, due to this unjustified war and the fact that they have allied themselves with people that demand from us to surrender and leave Placid region for ever, in direct confrontation of the Freespace ideal you seem to wave around as a banner.
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Nobody can be exactly like me. Even I have trouble doing it. |
RedSky Hail
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Posted - 2007.01.25 00:00:00 -
[140]
Edited by: RedSky Hail on 25/01/2007 00:03:11
Edited by: RedSky Hail on 24/01/2007 23:57:00
Quote:
I would say that I find it heartening to see the locals waking up. Upon my early arrival to Stacmon, I ran several errands in the region in preparation for the upcoming conflict, and flew through several gatecamps in lowsec to do it, seeing wrecked ship after wrecked ship dotting the view from the various stargates. Local comms channels were relatively silent.
More recently, the wrecks are less common, the gatecamps are fewer, and generally there is information regarding potential gatecamps being shared in local channels. More than once I have seen locals coming into Stacmon and immediately sharing any information they have about potential pirate threats elsewhere, and have seen more than one individual use said intelligence to plan alternate routes around the threat.
That is taking responsibility for oneself, and demonstrates to me a clear example of individuals throwing off the yoke of complacency and dependence and taking an interest in their own self-preservation and advancement in a way I did not see even two weeks ago in this region.
WOW! THATS NEW!!!
You know.. its not like this hasnt been going on for BEFORE Star Fraction showed up. In Fact, the wrecks are MORE numerous now that Star Fraction allowed their good friends (reference the "Smash the State" campaign on the Star Fraction killboards) the Black Rabbits into Placid. All I hear about the pirate situation in Placid are things such as "15 man rabbits gang in Iges camping the gate."
Any attempt to wriggle free of their association will be noted.
Try again or quit.
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Jack Malus
Gallente
Phoenix Wing
Electus Matari
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Posted - 2007.01.25 00:47:00 -
[141]
What happened? /me scratches head
We were all doing so good on ignoring them up until today...boom we're now on page five.
Places people...places.
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Renee Soleil
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.01.25 03:20:00 -
[142]
Edited by: Renee Soleil on 25/01/2007 03:20:02
Dear Ms. Jenneth
Since I'm bearing the same thoughts you've expressed here I would like to give my personal answer to your question.
Will what SF does work? Ever?
Let me first put it naively. Truth is: nobody knows. Yet there is hope.
Will your alternative route to SFs goals work? Ever?
Truth is: nobody knows either. My investigation in SFs history shows me they tried to do this (as The Cosmopolitan stated above). They failed.
Yet there is hope.
For as your comments make clear one can raise good reasons to believe SFs approach is evenly problematic.
Now to my point: This discussion seem fundamentally flawed to me. My argument for this is as follws.
1. Both of your arguments are valid.
2.
a) To be also sound your premises have to be true.
b) Both of your argument contain premises about future events.
c) One can not state truth about future events.
therefore,
d) You cant state if the premises are true.
therefore,
3. You can't state if one or the other, both or even none of your arguments are sound.
To put it in simple terms: there is no truth about your positions (by now).
You won't be able to prove yours and SF won't be able to prove theirs. At least you won't be able now. And if you are able its trivial.
SF seems to understand this and does the only thing they can to prove themselves right: Acting on their hope with zeal and resolve and let time show if they're right.
This is where parts of my high regard for the Free Captains results from even if I don't agree on their means.
And this is where this argument evolves into a trap for the trapper: To prove them wrong you have to achieve their goals by your means. If you want to do this you have to embrace their very goals. Ironically you prove them to be right by this. At least a bit. (Of course you don't have to do all this.)
I would like to emphesize that my opinion is that both arguments are true to some degree. I understand that there is now disagreement at how to reach the goals of individuality, independence and freedom. But at the end we have to recognise one thing.
Divided we'll fall. Together we'll stand.
Everything else is about enlightened self-interest.
If you wish them to be brothers, have them build a tower. |
Takakura Hirohito
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Posted - 2007.01.25 04:09:00 -
[143]
Quote:
WOW! THATS NEW!!!
You know.. its not like this hasnt been going on for BEFORE Star Fraction showed up. In Fact, the wrecks are MORE numerous now that Star Fraction allowed their good friends (reference the "Smash the State" campaign on the Star Fraction killboards) the Black Rabbits into Placid. All I hear about the pirate situation in Placid are things such as "15 man rabbits gang in Iges camping the gate."
Any attempt to wriggle free of their association will be noted.
Try again or quit.
I asked earlier if the Star Fraction supported piracy. Garreck answered for them but I never heard from anyone from the Star Fraction. These black rabbit people I have read about are camping gates? That is the action of a pirate. And didnt Star Fraction just align with them in another war? If they are gate camping I assume Star Fraction will be wardecing them immediately to defend the concept of freespace? Anything else would appear hypocritical.
Taki
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Aria Jenneth
Caldari
Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.01.25 04:21:00 -
[144]
The Star Fraction doesn't mind piracy, exactly, because pirates generally don't set up sovreign territory and try to deny access to others. They also consider pirates to be good for the local population (in the sense that they encourage self-reliance and preparedness), and are therefore, if not exactly laudible, at least better, in SF's mind, than statists, and make worthy allies in time of war. Star Fraction gets more firepower and gets to enjoy watching the population whipped into shape by having a few predators introduced into the local ecosystem while the Fraction restricts antipirate activities; the pirates get easy access to prey and a bit of squad-to-fleet warfare (and make a tidy profit, I'm sure). It's a tidy, mutually beneficial relationship and, while the pirates ultimately don't have a place in the posthuman paradise, the Fraction expects to beat them more by economics than by force, if I recall correctly. I doubt the pirates mind.
No wardec will be forthcoming.
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Jonny Damordred
Tabula Rasa Systems
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.01.25 04:39:00 -
[145]
Originally by: Takakura Hirohito
If they are gate camping I assume Star Fraction will be wardecing them immediately to defend the concept of freespace? Anything else would appear hypocritical.
We are not your keeper. If you want the gates cleared, then clear them. Specialization is for insects and mewing is for kittens. You are a human being, act like one.
Cheers,
Jonny D.
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Aria Jenneth
Caldari
Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.01.25 09:56:00 -
[146]
Edited by: Aria Jenneth on 25/01/2007 10:02:17
RECORDED MESSAGE
Connecting ...
Connected.
Downloading - 100%
Playing message ...
The screen flickers, opening a window to reveal a small woman, pale of feature and Achur-slender of form, seated with folded legs on a modest black leather chair. She smiles pleasantly at the camera, her expression almost girlishly cheerful, only a slight lingering redness about the edges of her eyes indicating that anything might be amiss; when she speaks, her Caldari is flavored with a slight accent, of the sort associated with one of the northern coastal regions of Saisio III.
"Good evening, ladies and gentlemen; I hope you've enjoyed our discussion, but now it seems to be time to draw to a close. I'd like to thank all our guests for your participation in making this a ..." she arches one eyebrow, "... flavorful debate."
Her smile widens, giving her pretty features a slightly predatory cast, her eyes sparkling with mischief.
"In particular, I'd like to thank those of you who are members of the Star Fraction for your input. Your words, and conduct, both within and beyond this particular arena, have provided the clarity I sought. I am pleased to state that, henceforth, you may seek your fate without interference or comment from me, I should hope, of any sort."
Those mischievous gray eyes go very cold as she speaks these last words:
"We are done. Thank you."
Her face clears at once, becoming open, happy, almost joyous.
"To the rest of you," she says, "thank you once more for a stimulating conversation, and I look forward to seeing you about the IGS."
Swiftly, she rises and bends forward in a formal bow that would probably reveal more than it should if she weren't wearing a flight jacket and turtleneck.
"Konbaensha. Good night."
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Takakura Hirohito
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Posted - 2007.01.25 13:04:00 -
[147]
Quote:
Start your own thread. This one is done.
His questions were excellent I will use them in my own thread for questions about the Star Fraction and its operations.
Taki
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Destania
Caldari
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.01.25 19:10:00 -
[148]
I normally don't bother replying to these political gambits, but feel strongly enough t at least say something. Aria, as you have stated, you have listened to, loved and for the most part you feel you understand SF's ideoligy and yet you continually press for more information. From a personal perspective, you have become something very similar to a virus, adapting over an over again to an SF members explanation. Nothing you have asked has not already been asked, probed, prodded and twisted to the point of unrecognition. Same goes for the rest of those posting in this thread. Your all like viruses. The constant pecking away at SF ideoligy isn't getting any of you anywhere. I believe the phrase of the day is wardec or stfu?
Most of the posters in here don't have the.....hmm....will or resolve to bring there distaste for SF to space but choose to hide behind IGS instead. I would also say most wouldn't even bother commenting if they didn't feel they would be backed up by another virus spouting it's venom.
All these questions have been answered time and time again, to that I say, if you don't like the answers your getting..then step up or shut up, but at the very least stop your whining.
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