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Remiel Pollard
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
7367
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Posted - 2016.01.13 00:05:47 -
[151] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Wait, you took that literally?
You're more autistic than me.
That's what we call a pitch, over in PR circles. It's no different from a lawyer saying to a jury in his opening remarks, "you will find the defendant guilty because...". He's not telling them to find the defendant guilty, he's asserting with confidence that they will. You need to brush up on your PR skills.
That reddit post still has to plead its case. The person who posted it still has to be respectable enough to draw in a big enough group of people that will do as he suggests. There is a lot more at play here than mindless drones just doing what they're told. If all that was needed was a list, then all it would be is a list.
Same thing in sales - you don't ask a customer if they'd like something better than what they've picked, you direct them to something better and say, "nah, that's not what you want, this is." No one is actually telling them how to think, it's just a strategy used to assert and influence. Despite it being an effective one, one that anyone can use, people still have a mind of their own.
Hell, you could even go get their list, and with enough charisma and the right campaign of your own, establish an oppositional voting bloc. But somehow, methinks the charisma is weak with this one.
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
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Remiel Pollard
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
7369
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Posted - 2016.01.13 00:19:52 -
[152] - Quote
It's funny, you know, how he opens his pitch with: "2015 is the year that CCP is really going to tackle the sov revamp. This alone should terrify you. If you've been keeping up with my director blog at all, you'll have seen a few of my CSM musings and how my assessments have grown steadily more negative."
And regardless of the 'voting bloc', the sov remap went ahead as planned, much to the disappointment of many a nulseccer. I'll let you think on that a moment.
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
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SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1509
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Posted - 2016.01.13 00:20:13 -
[153] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
So in an STV voting system, the Goons, who allegedly control 75% of the votes, provided an ordered list of whom to vote for, and we only have to go 5 people down on that list to find someone who wasn't elected.
I am forced to ask: Do you know how STV works?
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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King Aires
Chicks on Speed Mordus Angels
85
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Posted - 2016.01.13 01:27:16 -
[154] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: So in an STV voting system, the Goons, who allegedly control 75% of the votes, provided an ordered list of whom to vote for, and we only have to go 5 people down on that list to find someone who wasn't elected. I am forced to ask: Do you know how STV works?
I think it would be easier to count the people on that list who weren't elected... then ask yourself how silly what you just said really was.
Actually it makes me have even less faith in the CSM now that I read that list. |
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1509
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Posted - 2016.01.13 01:35:14 -
[155] - Quote
King Aires wrote:SurrenderMonkey wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: So in an STV voting system, the Goons, who allegedly control 75% of the votes, provided an ordered list of whom to vote for, and we only have to go 5 people down on that list to find someone who wasn't elected. I am forced to ask: Do you know how STV works? I think it would be easier to count the people on that list who weren't elected... then ask yourself how silly what you just said really was. Actually it makes me have even less faith in the CSM now that I read that list.
Yes, that might make sense, if you don't understand how STV works. You should probably read up on it. Be a doll and livestream yourself while doing so, it would be nice if we could all catch the, "Ah, ****" face you're likely to make when you realize what the problem is.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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Remiel Pollard
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
7370
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Posted - 2016.01.13 05:58:58 -
[156] - Quote
King Aires wrote:
Actually it makes me have even less faith in the CSM now that I read that list.
I'm a bit worried that you had any to begin with.
Not surprised though.
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
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Alphea Abbra
Grim Determination Violence of Action.
830
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Posted - 2016.01.13 07:23:44 -
[157] - Quote
King Aires wrote:SurrenderMonkey wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: So in an STV voting system, the Goons, who allegedly control 75% of the votes, provided an ordered list of whom to vote for, and we only have to go 5 people down on that list to find someone who wasn't elected. I am forced to ask: Do you know how STV works? I think it would be easier to count the people on that list who weren't elected... then ask yourself how silly what you just said really was. Actually it makes me have even less faith in the CSM now that I read that list. The answer, for anyone who knows how STV functions, is "not at all silly", and simply counting who was/wasn't elected is like looking at the an Obama 2012 swingstate wishlist and then assuming the wishlist itself was what changed the outcome. In other words, such a count would be completely unhinged from reality and the voting system. As I explained before, the CFC voting machine (If one such exists - nobody has proven to me that they vote in bloc) stopped short of their #5. But even that is assuming that all votes for the first 4 were CFC votes, which isn't a sure thing at all. We then have the result that an unproven minority (Again, how many out-of-CFC accounts to CFC players have?) should be the only ones voting for 4 candidates to even get to a 28%. This is really far fetched.
If you have less faith in the CSM after reading that list, then it's because you don't know how elections work. Your faith or lack thereof is a symptom of your own ignorance, and has nothing to do with the CSM.
But again, back to the real issue: Why should the groups that currently vote* be disenfranchised by you, just to make groups that do not currently vote* have a comparative voting power?
*I really should start adding "allegedly" to those, because you haven't even proven that much (Though to me it seems to be the case). It could actually be that the voters were genuinely hisec players, who just preferred nullsec candidates over hisec candidates. You might want to show that there's any problem except that your favourites do not get elected. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
43180
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Posted - 2016.01.13 07:33:23 -
[158] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera[url=https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/2x3ugo/cfc_csm_election_2015_truth_in_advertising_edition/ wrote:Google hit[/url]. Now eat your pods. Oh Jenshae. /o\
Is it wrong of me to be embarassed for you? I even like you (though I don't agree with your views a lot of the time), but I don't even know what to make of that.
How is that evidence that 75% of votes are Goons?
I'm not even saying it's wrong to suggest that 75% of votes are goon controlled. It may well be right, but that isn't evidence to support the claim.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
2180
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Posted - 2016.01.13 07:52:49 -
[159] - Quote
Frankly, the whole CSM thing has outstayed its welcome and it used more for meta stuff than actual use. |
Ria Nieyli
38587
|
Posted - 2016.01.13 08:10:54 -
[160] - Quote
Selling my vote for 50M ISK. |
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Remiel Pollard
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
7372
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Posted - 2016.01.13 13:15:33 -
[161] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:King Aires wrote:
Actually it makes me have even less faith in the CSM now that I read that list.
I'm a bit worried that you had any to begin with. Not surprised though.
I don't know why you 'liked' this post Aires, but it doesn't mean what I think you think it means.
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
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King Aires
Chicks on Speed Mordus Angels
85
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Posted - 2016.01.13 15:01:45 -
[162] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:King Aires wrote:
Actually it makes me have even less faith in the CSM now that I read that list.
I'm a bit worried that you had any to begin with. Not surprised though. I don't know why you 'liked' this post Aires, but it doesn't mean what I think you think it means.
I don't know why you care what posts I like and don't. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
2479
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Posted - 2016.01.13 19:04:11 -
[163] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Frankly, the whole CSM thing has outstayed its welcome and it used more for meta stuff than actual use. For emphasis.
P.S. Not bothered about a link that I grabbed just before going to bed. Additionally, the public list and the actual list sent out could easily have had a different order.
There were a lot of really good candidates that were not on that list and didn't make it to CSM, whilst others were surprising results. "Vote for this person no one really knows" "Okay"
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids
There are other ways to fix Null Sec stagnation and Fozzie SOV is the wrong approach.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26698
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Posted - 2016.01.13 19:15:32 -
[164] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:P.S. Not bothered about a link that I grabbed just before going to bed. Additionally, the public list and the actual list sent out could easily have had a different order. GǪwhich means that it proves your point even less than it does in its current state (which is not a whole lot since it holds no information about voters, their voting patterns, and the supposed control over these voters).
Quote:There were a lot of really good candidates that were not on that list and didn't make it to CSM, whilst others were surprising results. GÇ£GoodGÇ¥ and GÇ£surprisingGÇ¥ by what measure? Your personal preference and knowledge?
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.3 - Vanguard Edition.
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Jenshae Chiroptera
2479
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Posted - 2016.01.13 19:41:49 -
[165] - Quote
Tippia wrote:...GÇ£GoodGÇ¥ and GÇ£surprisingGÇ¥ by what measure? Your personal preference and knowledge?... I am clearly an introverted person, who never discusses anything with anyone else and is not even in a corp much less a fairly large coalition.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids
There are other ways to fix Null Sec stagnation and Fozzie SOV is the wrong approach.
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Alphea Abbra
Grim Determination Violence of Action.
833
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Posted - 2016.01.13 19:49:07 -
[166] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Not bothered about a link that I grabbed just before going to bed. Additionally, the public list and the actual list sent out could easily have had a different order. You're not bothered that the thing you attempted to pass off as a source to your claims aren't sources, and that thus far none of your claims are substantiated? You're not bothered by the fact that your attempt to explain away why your "source" is bunk, itself is bunk? You're not bothered by being shown to be wrong? I'm just checking. Because so far, all you've tried is to throw sand in our eyes every time we've asked for any evidence at all.
There are really two questions: What evidence do you have to say that CFC controls any given percentage of the voters? Why do you want one allegedly voting group disenfranchised to make them equal to a group that allegedly doesn't vote?
Quote:There were a lot of really good candidates that were not on that list and didn't make it to CSM, whilst others were surprising results. "Vote for this person no one really knows" "Okay" So because people didn't vote for the candidates you liked, and did vote for other candidates, CFC must control all voters? |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
13334
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Posted - 2016.01.13 19:55:31 -
[167] - Quote
Alphea Abbra wrote:So because people didn't vote for the candidates you liked, and did vote for other candidates, CFC must control all voters?
That's exactly what he's saying, and it's real easy to understand why if you read the guy's posts on these forums.
"CFC controls most of the votes and that's why I didn't get elected to the CSM" is way easier to accept than the truth, which is that the voters rejected him on the (lack of) merits of his campaign, not because of some evil goon conspiracy to keep his "truth" away from Iceland (lol).
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Jenshae Chiroptera
2479
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Posted - 2016.01.13 20:03:18 -
[168] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:...why I didn't get elected to the CSM 1) Core's shadow. 2) Had recently returned to EVE. 3) Not a people pleaser.
... but keep making your fantasies.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids
There are other ways to fix Null Sec stagnation and Fozzie SOV is the wrong approach.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26702
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Posted - 2016.01.13 20:07:49 -
[169] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Tippia wrote:...GÇ£GoodGÇ¥ and GÇ£surprisingGÇ¥ by what measure? Your personal preference and knowledge?... I am clearly an introverted person, who never discusses anything with anyone else and is not even in a corp much less a fairly large coalition. So there's nothing to actually suggest that there was anything surprising about the people chosen or that the supposed alternatives were any better. Ok. vOv
In short, the entire list is a red herring that failed to have the distracting effect you were hoping for, and your claim remains unsupported and unproven. If anything, all you have to go on disproves the scenario you've dreamed up.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.3 - Vanguard Edition.
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Alphea Abbra
Grim Determination Violence of Action.
834
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Posted - 2016.01.13 20:25:48 -
[170] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:...why I didn't get elected to the CSM 1) Core's shadow. 2) Had recently returned to EVE. 3) Not a people pleaser. ... but keep making your fantasies. And that returns us neatly to my question. When you acknowledge that it was your own faults as a candidate that turned voters away from you and towards better, more known candidates, why do you want to disenfranchise CFC voters? They had nothing to do with the issues you identify that make voters vote for those who aren't you.
It seems to me that you're working on a project to make the CFC out to be the bad guys, when in this regard they're more likely to be found among the good guys. CFC leadership was among the first of nullsec coalitions to really build a determined campaign to get votes and translate those votes into seats. The CFC may have increased voter turnout like no other group has. Why do you blame them, when you really ought to work together with them? |
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Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
2188
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Posted - 2016.01.13 21:29:06 -
[171] - Quote
Alphea Abbra wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:...why I didn't get elected to the CSM 1) Core's shadow. 2) Had recently returned to EVE. 3) Not a people pleaser. ... but keep making your fantasies. And that returns us neatly to my question. When you acknowledge that it was your own faults as a candidate that turned voters away from you and towards better, more known candidates, why do you want to disenfranchise CFC voters? They had nothing to do with the issues you identify that make voters vote for those who aren't you. It seems to me that you're working on a project to make the CFC out to be the bad guys, when in this regard they're more likely to be found among the good guys. CFC leadership was among the first of nullsec coalitions to really build a determined campaign to get votes and translate those votes into seats. The CFC may have increased voter turnout like no other group has. Why do you blame them, when you really ought to work together with them?
Can you explain to us why the last 40 odd posts of yours, spanning a year's length, all have to do with the CSM? Could it be that you're an alt used for PR? |
Zeko Rena
ENCOM Industries
3264
|
Posted - 2016.01.13 21:32:46 -
[172] - Quote
I vote for people who I think have cool looking avatars |
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Snuffed Out
4517
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Posted - 2016.01.13 21:43:00 -
[173] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Can you explain to us why the last 40 odd posts of yours, spanning a year's length, all have to do with the CSM? Could it be that you're an alt used for PR? can you explain why the last 1 posts of yours are kinda creepy |
Alphea Abbra
Grim Determination Violence of Action.
835
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Posted - 2016.01.13 21:48:23 -
[174] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Can you explain to us why the last 40 odd posts of yours, spanning a year's length, all have to do with the CSM? Could it be that you're an alt used for PR? I'm very interested in politics, both IRL (It's what I do and study) and in space. I'm also uncertain whether the "last 40 odd posts" is really accurate. I spent some time goodpoasting with Sol as well.
Likewise, I'm not sure whether it'd change anything if I really am an alt (Although I'm not, just to clarify). Take my arguments at their merits, unless I specifically refer to my RL expertise in any such matters. If you're trying to imply that I am doing CFC PR, then feel free to check out my alliance history, though it still wouldn't change my arguments. |
Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
2188
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Posted - 2016.01.13 22:42:35 -
[175] - Quote
Right right, so not an alt with an agenda, at all. |
Robert Sawyer
The Vendunari End of Life
85
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Posted - 2016.01.13 22:51:06 -
[176] - Quote
Remember, the CSM is not a very influential political body - it reflects the views of some players, but not all. To be honest, ever since I've been playing EVE (June 2014) I have never heard of the CSM, nor do I care what they do as their opinions do not matter to me. In fact, the CSM actually annoys me because the votes are never serious and Goons are usually picked as members for the lulz. And jeez, why would you vote for Bees when their space is literally crawling with bubbles and Sabre patrols?
"And when, at last, the moment is yours, that agony will become your greatest triumph."
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Alphea Abbra
Grim Determination Violence of Action.
836
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Posted - 2016.01.13 23:00:56 -
[177] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Right right, so not an alt with an agenda, at all. Who would I be an alt of, and what would that change? I'm almost genuinely curious, because I can't see why it has anything to do with the arguments I make, or the lack of evidence for Jenshae Chiropteras claims.
Still, I'm not. You can ask my corporate leadership if you really want to - but naturally they could also be in on the conspiracy?!? -, or I could care enough to explain my life story - a story I've prepared already and simply made up?!? -, or more appropiately, you could tell me why it'd change one bit, and thus why we'd need to care at all. After showing that, you could show what evidence there is for it. You might want to top it by having dinner at Milliways. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
2479
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Posted - 2016.01.13 23:09:05 -
[178] - Quote
Back on track:
My experience of crossing High Sec multiple times and talking to people was that they didn't know the CSM existed nor what it does.
That is what is relevant.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids
There are other ways to fix Null Sec stagnation and Fozzie SOV is the wrong approach.
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SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1520
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Posted - 2016.01.13 23:17:01 -
[179] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Back on track:
My experience of crossing High Sec multiple times and talking to people was that they didn't know the CSM existed nor what it does.
That is what is relevant.
Your anecdote is what is relevant?
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
2190
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Posted - 2016.01.13 23:29:56 -
[180] - Quote
Alphea Abbra wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:Right right, so not an alt with an agenda, at all. Who would I be an alt of, and what would that change? I'm almost genuinely curious, because I can't see why it has anything to do with the arguments I make, or the lack of evidence for Jenshae Chiropteras claims. Still, I'm not. You can ask my corporate leadership if you really want to - but naturally they could also be in on the conspiracy?!? -, or I could care enough to explain my life story - a story I've prepared already and simply made up?!? -, or more appropiately, you could tell me why it'd change one bit, and thus why we'd need to care at all. After showing that, you could show what evidence there is for it. You might want to top it by having dinner at Milliways.
Because it's funny how people who you never see posting all of a sudden come out of the woodwork for very specific threads and uses, frantically and feverishly debating points for a specific faction. |
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