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Deitra Vess
Scope Works Psychotic Tendencies.
861
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Posted - 2016.01.13 21:33:25 -
[61] - Quote
Utari Onzo wrote:Deitra Vess wrote:Mizhara, do you value the beliefs and ideals of the guns on your ship? No right? They are tools of war. As such is those profiteers and other undesirables fighting beside you. Who cares about their belief? When were done (the "wargames" I mean) and well throw them out as such. By rights they'll probably throw themselves out and return to curse, ect. Respectfully speaking, I think if the end of the militia wars happened, you might regret these words. Without the proxy war to keep them busy, I dread to think what some of the extreme elements on both sides of the fence would get up to to occupy their time and guns. Can't say I disagree with ya, though I've often seen the proxy wars as training for jus that.... |
Mizhara Del'thul
T.R.I.A.D Ushra'Khan
526
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Posted - 2016.01.13 21:33:26 -
[62] - Quote
Weapons need to be measured versus the targets. You don't use orbital bombardment to suppress minor riots and you don't fly with Sansha or Sani Sabik to take meaningless proxy war systems. Especially given the kind of atrocious example that would set for baseliner supporters. |
Deitra Vess
Scope Works Psychotic Tendencies.
861
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Posted - 2016.01.13 21:36:45 -
[63] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:Weapons need to be measured versus the targets. You don't use orbital bombardment to suppress minor riots and you don't fly with Sansha or Sani Sabik to take meaningless proxy war systems. Especially given the kind of atrocious example that would set for baseliner supporters.
I........ Can't really argue that. My apologies for questioning ya. |
Mizhara Del'thul
T.R.I.A.D Ushra'Khan
527
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Posted - 2016.01.13 21:39:41 -
[64] - Quote
Don't apologize for it. Any stance is worth questioning and critiquing. If it is untenable, it will have to be abandoned. If it is worth standing for, it'll hold up to scrutiny.
I can't change any ways of mine that might be erroneous if people don't question and point out their flaws. |
Anslo
Scope Works Psychotic Tendencies.
32309
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Posted - 2016.01.13 21:40:28 -
[65] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:Weapons need to be measured versus the targets. You don't use orbital bombardment to suppress minor riots
YOU might not. Doesn't mean others can't.
Quote:you don't fly with Sansha or Sani Sabik to take meaningless proxy war systems.
Meaningless? So the few people that live there aren't worth a damn? Not worth fighting for? Who cares about them even though their 'your people,' amirite?
Holy hell can you go back and disappear into the dumpster you hid in for the last few years?
[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
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Kalaratiri
Death By Design Did he say Jump
769
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Posted - 2016.01.13 21:42:45 -
[66] - Quote
If you care so much, why aren't you in the TLF Anslo?
She's mad but she's magic, there's no lie in her fire.
This is possibly one of the worst threads in the history of these forums. - CCP Falcon
I don't remember when last time you said something that wasn't either dumb or absurd. - Diana Kim
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Anslo
Scope Works Psychotic Tendencies.
32309
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Posted - 2016.01.13 21:43:40 -
[67] - Quote
DIDN'T YOU HEAR THE TLF IS DEAD OH GODS IT'S DEAD AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
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Kalaratiri
Death By Design Did he say Jump
769
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Posted - 2016.01.13 21:45:41 -
[68] - Quote
Got an actual answer?
She's mad but she's magic, there's no lie in her fire.
This is possibly one of the worst threads in the history of these forums. - CCP Falcon
I don't remember when last time you said something that wasn't either dumb or absurd. - Diana Kim
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Mizhara Del'thul
T.R.I.A.D Ushra'Khan
527
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Posted - 2016.01.13 21:46:06 -
[69] - Quote
If you think who holds proxy war systems have even the slightest effect on the baseliner population in those systems, you're hilariously misinformed, Anslo. The only thing that changes in the systems is which capsuleers make money off it and can dock there.
Besides, like I've already mentioned, we've had the staircase in place since long before the proxy war started. The TLF never even entered into it. If anything, being in the TLF makes it more difficult to care for our own in the warzone. |
Anslo
Scope Works Psychotic Tendencies.
32309
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Posted - 2016.01.13 21:46:31 -
[70] - Quote
Because we did more for the TLF outside of it than inside of it.
[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Icecream Audit Office
639
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Posted - 2016.01.13 21:46:51 -
[71] - Quote
I think you just did.
Want some nuts with your intelligence?
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Kalaratiri
Death By Design Did he say Jump
769
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Posted - 2016.01.13 21:50:54 -
[72] - Quote
Anslo wrote:Because we did more for the TLF outside of it than inside of it.
Like what? What lasting good have you had on the TLF?
She's mad but she's magic, there's no lie in her fire.
This is possibly one of the worst threads in the history of these forums. - CCP Falcon
I don't remember when last time you said something that wasn't either dumb or absurd. - Diana Kim
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Deitra Vess
Scope Works Psychotic Tendencies.
861
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Posted - 2016.01.13 21:54:20 -
[73] - Quote
Kalaratiri wrote:Anslo wrote:Because we did more for the TLF outside of it than inside of it. Like what? What lasting good have you had on the TLF? Is anything really lasting in the proxy war? Before the fall of huola 2 years ago alot of good was done (my corp at the time left the militia as it was kicking off). That's part of the reason I joined them initially. |
Kalaratiri
Death By Design Did he say Jump
770
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Posted - 2016.01.13 22:00:10 -
[74] - Quote
Deitra Vess wrote:Kalaratiri wrote:Anslo wrote:Because we did more for the TLF outside of it than inside of it. Like what? What lasting good have you had on the TLF? Is anything really lasting in the proxy war? Before the fall of huola 2 years ago alot of good was done (my corp at the time left the militia as it was kicking off). That's part of the reason I joined them initially.
That is my exact point.
It's all very well people saying "Well, my contribution was much more important than yours", but when nothing lasts longer than 6 months or a year in these wonderful wars of ours, what's the point?
You're bickering over who's the biggest shrimp in the rock pool, while hungry fish wait for the tide to come in.
In my opinion, a single 3 hour excursion into the Drifter hives by Makoto's bunch has more impact on the cluster than 3 months of fighting over a constellation in the Bleak Lands.
She's mad but she's magic, there's no lie in her fire.
This is possibly one of the worst threads in the history of these forums. - CCP Falcon
I don't remember when last time you said something that wasn't either dumb or absurd. - Diana Kim
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Mizhara Del'thul
T.R.I.A.D Ushra'Khan
529
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Posted - 2016.01.13 22:17:50 -
[75] - Quote
I have no doubt she's achieved a great deal more than all eight years of proxy wars combined, Kalaratiri. This is why I find the notion of sacrificing principle and honor for a marginally bigger chance at taking or defending a system to be abhorrent. It'd be a sacrifice for essentially nothing.
There are few extremes I can't envisage myself going to in the right situations and for the right causes, but it'd take some significant changes to the proxy wars for them to require such measures. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
5833
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Posted - 2016.01.13 22:50:01 -
[76] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:There are few extremes I can't envisage myself going to in the right situations and for the right causes, but it'd take some significant changes to the proxy wars for them to require such measures.
I know I'm guilty by association, but I've never understood the idea that using dubious assets to achieve your goals renders those goals unclean in some way. Those people were going to be shooting SOMEONE and we made them shoot the enemy instead of our friends.
Goals were met. Statistics posted. Quotas were filled.
I sleep perfectly fine, thanks very much.
"Caldari Prime burns, those left behind are choking on the dust and ash that fills the air, and you demand our surrender? Is this a joke? You have only hardened our resolve. Every drop of blood you have taken from us will be repaid -- with interest."
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Mizhara Del'thul
T.R.I.A.D Ushra'Khan
530
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Posted - 2016.01.13 22:59:37 -
[77] - Quote
I suspect you do. The problem is that I wouldn't, because I would have no place to sleep. My clan would disown me rather quickly for allying with enemies that seek their destruction, and rightfully so. However, this is not the main issue.
The goal is not system control. Oh, that's why we undock and fight and it's the measurable metric of success, but it's not the goal of what I do in faction warfare. Any victory I make there is rendered irrelevant by the fact that we still have absolutely no impact on the dirtside matters in those systems, thanks to CONCORD limitations on capsuleers and what we can do.
The only thing I can truly positively affect up here is those on the ground looking up at us. I can set an example. I can show what a Matari will do and what they will not do. I can perhaps inspire.
Betraying everything a Matari is for a worthless metric of bloodsport success? It'd be the equivalent of a soldier fighting an actual war shooting himself in the head as far as 'attaining the goal' would be concerned. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
5833
|
Posted - 2016.01.13 23:11:50 -
[78] - Quote
Who would you not work with to free your people? I have to ask.
I suppose I'm suffering from a lack of existential threat. As bad as the war with the Gallente has been in the past, even with the tragedy over Home a couple of years ago, that war isn't this war - and the Federation isn't seriously talking about or even considering invading State space.
If I thought the Federation had billions of State citizens in chains, I suppose I'd do anything to free them. It would also inform all my strategic planning.
"Caldari Prime burns, those left behind are choking on the dust and ash that fills the air, and you demand our surrender? Is this a joke? You have only hardened our resolve. Every drop of blood you have taken from us will be repaid -- with interest."
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Mizhara Del'thul
T.R.I.A.D Ushra'Khan
531
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Posted - 2016.01.13 23:25:27 -
[79] - Quote
The lengths I'd go to for freeing my people? I don't think I know the extent of that. I have trouble imagining anything I wouldn't do for that goal. That's not a goal I can achieve alone though. No matter how much power and wealth I'd amass, it'd be dwarfed by what any of our nations could field, even if I could directly target many of the Empire assets.
The strategy is simpler. Inspire and promote the necessity for victory among the baseliners. Fund and promote movement which can translate into political pressure for taking action. We can safely ignore pretty much anything capsuleers do and want, because we can't actually affect much at all in the Empire or among the Tribes. Get enough among the Tribes to care about saving our own, and we can change the face of New Eden.
The tactics involved are of course not something I'd elaborate too much about on the IGS, as it'd be rather easily countered.
If the proxy war actually mattered and winning it would free my people? I don't think there would be limits to what I would do to achieve that. That goal would make sacrificing principle, honor and the tattered shreds of my spirit worth it. As it does not... well, I'll save what I have for when it is needed. |
ValentinaDLM
Khushakor Clan Of Questionable Repute
845
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Posted - 2016.01.14 00:41:14 -
[80] - Quote
Anslo wrote:Because we did more for the TLF outside of it than inside of it.
Some days, I really miss being in the Huola Coalition, fighting for our people from Scope Works, we did good work. |
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Siddhar Gangari
Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan
48
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Posted - 2016.01.14 03:43:35 -
[81] - Quote
Kalo Askold wrote:I like this thread, people are just venting all their anger.
I think this is actually a discussion that very much needed to happen. People are angry and frustrated, but at least we're finally getting that out of the way so we can fix what is broken. Which is almost everything.
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Kalaratiri
Death By Design Did he say Jump
774
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Posted - 2016.01.14 03:57:38 -
[82] - Quote
Ooh, I want a go.
OK, how to start.. Sorry, I'm just going to write these as they come to me.
The TLF suffers from...
A complete lack of centralised, coherent leadership, Vicious backbiting and petty feuds among those who could perform those duties, An impressive lack of unified direction, Far too many conflicting "command" channels, half of which die and reform every two months, Very few solid doctrines, and almost nothing heavier than a cruiser, Big egos on little people, coupled with an unearned sense of entitlement and elitism from the "old guard", Confusingly conflicting advice given to new pilots as to what they should be training for, leading to pilots who half-know how to fly 5 different doctrines, A sense of "I'm more patriotic/Minmatar/worthy than you", leading to groups refusing to work together to both their detriment,
There's definitely more, but that will do for now.
What y'all need is a good old fashioned Dictator with some hard arsed lieutenants to whip y'all into shape.
She's mad but she's magic, there's no lie in her fire.
This is possibly one of the worst threads in the history of these forums. - CCP Falcon
I don't remember when last time you said something that wasn't either dumb or absurd. - Diana Kim
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Elmund Egivand
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
978
|
Posted - 2016.01.14 04:09:07 -
[83] - Quote
Kalaratiri wrote:Ooh, I want a go.
OK, how to start.. Sorry, I'm just going to write these as they come to me.
The TLF suffers from...
A complete lack of centralised, coherent leadership, Vicious backbiting and petty feuds among those who could perform those duties, An impressive lack of unified direction, Far too many conflicting "command" channels, half of which die and reform every two months, Very few solid doctrines, and almost nothing heavier than a cruiser, Big egos on little people, coupled with an unearned sense of entitlement and elitism from the "old guard", Confusingly conflicting advice given to new pilots as to what they should be training for, leading to pilots who half-know how to fly 5 different doctrines, A sense of "I'm more patriotic/Minmatar/worthy than you", leading to groups refusing to work together to both their detriment,
There's definitely more, but that will do for now.
What y'all need is a good old fashioned Dictator with some hard arsed lieutenants to whip y'all into shape.
Are these not the same issues found in every militia?
Evergreen ~ Evergreen ~ Evergreen ~ EVERGREEN ~ Evergreen ~ Evergreen ~Evergreen ~ Family
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Kalaratiri
Death By Design Did he say Jump
775
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Posted - 2016.01.14 04:24:35 -
[84] - Quote
Interestingly, no. While all militias do have a certain degree of disorganisation due to their nature, several of the militias, most notably the Gallente and Amarr, have a core group that have risen above the petty bickering so frequent elsewhere.
For the Amarr, this is mostly because they only actually have about three large groups of legitimate influence who have to deal with each other. This keeps tensions relatively low.
The Gallente on the otherhand are without a doubt the most organised militia at a strategic level, with five or six large groups working together when required to form a respectably substantial and well organised force. Bebop, Villore, RDRAW, and the others around them are strong enough to even challenge the mighty pirate groups such as Snuff Box and Shadow Cartel on occasion.
Minmil can barely challenge itself.
Calmil is somewhere in the middle, partly because of its comparatively huge size as a militia, and partly because it's broken into smaller groups than the large Gallente and Amarrian alliances.
She's mad but she's magic, there's no lie in her fire.
This is possibly one of the worst threads in the history of these forums. - CCP Falcon
I don't remember when last time you said something that wasn't either dumb or absurd. - Diana Kim
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Elmund Egivand
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
978
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Posted - 2016.01.14 04:29:18 -
[85] - Quote
Kalaratiri wrote:Interestingly, no. While all militias do have a certain degree of disorganisation due to their nature, several of the militias, most notably the Gallente and Amarr, have a core group that have risen above the petty bickering so frequent elsewhere.
For the Amarr, this is mostly because they only actually have about three large groups of legitimate influence who have to deal with each other. This keeps tensions relatively low.
The Gallente on the otherhand are without a doubt the most organised militia at a strategic level, with five or six large groups working together when required to form a respectably substantial and well organised force. Bebop, Villore, RDRAW, and the others around them are strong enough to even challenge the mighty pirate groups such as Snuff Box and Shadow Cartel on occasion.
Minmil can barely challenge itself.
Calmil is somewhere in the middle, partly because of its comparatively huge size as a militia, and partly because it's broken into smaller groups than the large Gallente and Amarrian alliances.
I will take this into account when dealing with fellow privateers.
Evergreen ~ Evergreen ~ Evergreen ~ EVERGREEN ~ Evergreen ~ Evergreen ~Evergreen ~ Family
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Kalaratiri
Death By Design Did he say Jump
775
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Posted - 2016.01.14 04:36:05 -
[86] - Quote
Glad to be of service.
I do love a good bit of political analysis.
She's mad but she's magic, there's no lie in her fire.
This is possibly one of the worst threads in the history of these forums. - CCP Falcon
I don't remember when last time you said something that wasn't either dumb or absurd. - Diana Kim
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Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
5839
|
Posted - 2016.01.14 06:08:28 -
[87] - Quote
Kalaratiri wrote:Glad to be of service.
I do love a good bit of political analysis. Insightful as always, Kala.
"Caldari Prime burns, those left behind are choking on the dust and ash that fills the air, and you demand our surrender? Is this a joke? You have only hardened our resolve. Every drop of blood you have taken from us will be repaid -- with interest."
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Mizhara Del'thul
T.R.I.A.D Ushra'Khan
535
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Posted - 2016.01.14 06:44:06 -
[88] - Quote
Other than the :bitter: at "the old guard" I'll certainly have to agree with her on all counts, particularly the lack of organization. Of course, none of it has been much of a secret or not understood since long before I joined. Old news, but oddly almost never spoken of until someone ragequits and tells everyone why. |
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
2330
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Posted - 2016.01.14 10:53:51 -
[89] - Quote
Kalaratiri wrote:Ooh, I want a go.
OK, how to start.. Sorry, I'm just going to write these as they come to me.
The TLF suffers from...
Runmatars.
Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.
In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Icecream Audit Office
641
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Posted - 2016.01.14 11:47:34 -
[90] - Quote
Folks;
Fact is this: you cannot impose organization when you cannot enforce consequences. All you can do about organization is to offer it. Between capsuleers, pretty much the only consequence you can enforce, ever, is firing the offensive member. Anything else requires an agreement with the capsuleer that they will willingly submit to any punishment or consequence you deem necessary - they can always walk out, if they do not like your ideas. In the Militias, you cannot do even that.
It follows that there is no such thing as "Minmatar Militia", beyond the toy-war CONCORD-sanctioned legalese that dictates who can shoot who under what terms. Same holds for other Militias.
Let me repeat that: Militias as coherent groups do not exist, and there is no way you can make them exist. For you to have that power, CONCORD would have to give an indie capsuleer the right to determine who is in a militia and who is not - and they are not going to do that, given that the whole purpose of Militias is to limit the war.
Once you accept that, you can start working on it.
If the Mary Militia really works better than ours - and there is always the possibility that it actually does not, but it's just once again mostly about the fact that the Tribes are less afraid of disagreeing out loud than certain more delicate peoples - it is because they figure this out and work from it.
You will never command "the Militia". You might be able to command a sizable part of it, but never the Militia as a whole. You offer what you have; you include those who are interested; and most importantly you ignore those who are not. If what you are doing is good and easily available, people will come. Some people will talk crap about your effort, but if you simply let them be, they will not stop the sensible folks from noticing you. If what you have is not good, it will not become good by trying to coax or coerce everyone to join it.
And now you can all proceed to hate me for being all haughty about giving advice from my bittervet seat when I am not willing to do the work myself.
Oh, IGS, never change.
Want some nuts with your intelligence?
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