| Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
|
|
| Author |
Topic |
Ikar Kaltin
Amarr
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
    |
Posted - 2007.01.24 01:06:00 -
[1]
Brothers, friends, people who I have no feelings either way about, enemies and Matari.
I bring a thought to you all. What is the value of life? Life is the beginning and the end all for all who live. But what is the value of life? With each life there is hope...there is opportunity...there is a future.
No one individual is truely limited within this galaxy. A humblest Gallente may make something of his life if he chose, become an admiral, a father, a merchant. Whatever he desired he could achieve. A matari slave may decide to reach beyond the care of his masters, and if he so desired he could. A caldari may decide to take himself upon a path to becomming a rich man, or even a monk if he so desired. Life is a possibility, a possibility we make for ourselves, and it is our own actions that shape our lives, and which lead us into the future.
So it strikes me as strange the words of Matari "freedom fighters". "Better dead than a slave". How does this work exactly? You have decided in your life that slavery is wrong, which by all means if your decision to make. You have decided to fight the enslavers, which, although it will not help anything as I have stated previously, is also your choice. Killing slaves because you believe they are better off dead than enslaved. This is your choice. You choose to decide the value of others lives is not equal to your own. What gives you the right to extinguish the possibility of a person? You claim it is part of the fight to freedom, yet you take the freedom to life from these people, your own people in most cases. You choose death where they had life, you decide to remove the imposition of slavery upon them by removing their life. Who are you to make this decision? To extinguish a life you have never met...a person you have never spoken to, whos goals you do not know, to extinguish their potential?
What right do you have to impose your choices upon these people who can choose for themselves? You believe that this is the right thing to do by your own convictions. How can you justify imposing your convictions upon others.
Now many Matari have read this far and thought "Ah ha! an Amarrian, well Khandid at least, claiming about the freedom to choice whilst the Amarrians deny that to others". The Amarrians are guilty of this, it is true. But the Amarrians do not kill, they provide opportunities....they live within the world they are born, and they value life in their own ways. Many Amarrian holders are kind to their slaves and give them choices, others are harsh, and this can give a slave incentive to escape. However, i do not make this message to discuss the treatment of slaves by the Amarr, which I'm sure many of you will be keen to pounce upon, but to ask what gives you the right to deny many people the right to life, to remove the potential that burns within each?
Ah yes, wait I had almost forgotten, the ideal of freedom. The right to give freedom to the people you "free" or the freedom to do whatever you feel like. It is upon you conscience the lives you take, upon your hands the blood you spill. Yet I ask, those of you who fight for freedom. How many of you would be willing to die for freedom? Many of you may say you have died many times for freedom...but you havent. You fight because you know that while cloning facilities are in place you shall live to fight again. I wonder how many of you would still fight the fight if you had but once chance? The once chance you remove from those you kill....what is the value of this chance, and the potential within it? And how many lives have you taken in the name of "freedom", and how many will you take? How many will you kill for your idea, how many ideas will you destroy on the way, and how many will never have the chance that you do, to do the right thing and make something of their lives....because you didnt value their one chance...because you have many.
Ikar Kaltin.
|
Camperific
Es and Whizz
Hedonistic Imperative
|
Posted - 2007.01.24 01:29:00 -
[2]
Rabble rabble rabble...I tried to read it,but the sameness of every other pro-slaver speech made me fall asleep.
*wanders off in search of entertainment*
 |
Camar
Stormriders
Fimbulwinter
|
Posted - 2007.01.24 01:41:00 -
[3]
The answer to "how many":
Until the amarr and khanid race is no more.
Until the amarr empire is annihilated.
 |
Jasmine Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2007.01.24 01:45:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Camperific
Rabble rabble rabble...I tried to read it,but the sameness of every other pro-slaver speech made me fall asleep. *wanders off in search of entertainment*
I'd love to say something positive about the diction and style but I'm afraid you're quite right Camperific - still maybe this chap has a bright future ahead as a non-invasive anaesthetist for hire.
Star Fraction is recruiting
|
Gaven Lok'ri
Amarr
PIE Inc.
|
Posted - 2007.01.24 05:16:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Gaven Lok''ri on 24/01/2007 05:21:40
And that is why we risk damnation of our souls through cloning technology to fight in the cause of the protection of the lives of the faithful against those who would threaten them.
Deus Vult!
PIE Website Public Channel: 'PIE Public' |
Verone
Veto.
Veto Corp
|
Posted - 2007.01.24 07:51:00 -
[6]
Recently I found the true value of life.
After reading this, you still seem to fail to grasp the concept as you sit behind a brainwashed mental state imposed on you by your so called religion.
You people are like livestock, branded with a "Title", a number and herded into a pen to serve a "god" who in his eventuality will not hesitate to kill you.
Good luck with the learning process, it sounds like you need it.
NEWEST MOVIE : VETO FOR HIRE
|
Ikar Kaltin
Amarr
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.01.24 08:35:00 -
[7]
its nice to see how easy you would dismiss words that do not suit you. This was not a pro-slaver or a pro-god speech. This was one upon morality, and if your pompous egos do not let you see that then I pity you, I really do.
|
Ly'sol
|
Posted - 2007.01.24 08:54:00 -
[8]
There is no god, there is no right or wrong people. Only right or wrong actions from a moral standpoint.
The Amarr religion is a stanchent of control and pre-programing to ensure its own continuance. The Slaves that are murderered in the name of someone elses freedom may have died in this world. But in other world lines, there is no such death.
The events are different and whilst I and you have suffered permenate death in other world lines. The infinity of the super-verse balances us all out.
Thier actions can be called wrong by you. Yet at the same time your actions are wrong to them. It's as it should be, natures balance.
Click here for Lysol's Linky Library-last updated 30NOV06 |
Ikar Kaltin
Amarr
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.01.24 10:28:00 -
[9]
We live within this world, not another world line. If you decide that I am wrong by my beliefs then you may try to kill me, my question is what right one has to kill those whos beliefs he does not know, in the name of his freedom?
|
Octavinus Augustus
|
Posted - 2007.01.24 10:58:00 -
[10]
I'm always rather bewildered as to why we Amarr are labelled as "fanatics" because of our beliefs.
When an amarr/khanid states a series of arguments to point out the sanity and righteousness of our cause the answer is invariably along the lines of "rabble, rabble, rabble" or "we'll kill you all".
So on one hand we have reason and sound arguments while on the other we have blind hatred.
Tell me, who is the true fanatic?
|
|
Aria Jenneth
Caldari
Omerta Syndicate
|
Posted - 2007.01.24 11:00:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Aria Jenneth on 24/01/2007 11:07:37
First, I really can't let this pass. Ly'sol, thank you for the lesson in quantum physics, but, unless your model applies in some way to -this- quantum reality, rather than the ones continuously branching off from it, I'm not sure I see the point unless you believe we do a sort of quantum clone jump to an alternate life upon death. That would, admittedly, be interesting.
The fact that I've got an infinite number of other versions wandering around other quantum universes doesn't make this version's existence matter any less to me, thank you.
As for the original post: this is a complicated question, and I'm troubled to see it framed in terms of slaves and their occasional deaths at the hands of would-be rescuers. As pod pilots, most of us take lives on at least half the days we climb into our pods. If we view a life as a range of possibilities, which is not unreasonable, it's entirely possible that the random pirate I just shot down was about to go home, dock, get an epiphany over a glass of synth-liquor, turn over a new leaf, donate his ill-gotten loot to charity, and proceed to start up a galaxy-sweeping charity movement based on love, joy, and careful political maneuvering that would result in a million years of peace and prosperity for the entire cluster.
On the other hand, it's considerably more likely that said pirate was going to go home, dock, get drunk on synth-liquor, *****some hapless girl in a back alley for the heck of it, go out the next day to shoot down a transport loaded with Sisters of Eve aid supplies, and otherwise proceed to spend the remainder of his life in a fog of drugs, alcohol, and self-loathing, leaving a trail of bodies all the way.
Similarly, it is possible that a slave of the Amarr could go on to become a truly great leader, even without being rescued (might, in fact, bring about the final quashing of the odious Amarrian notion of reunifying humanity by religious conquest). It is, however, much more likely that said slave will live out his or her life in miserable drudgery. Whether it's worth risking that life's currently rather bleak set of possibilities in order to offer a more promising set is obviously up to the individual pilot.
Personally, I don't hesitate to squash a pirate's future, though I'm accutely aware of the stains my actions leave on my soul. I don't doubt that most Matari freedom fighters and slave rescuers find themselves similarly haunted, but I'm equally sure that the joy of those they rescue does a lot to drown out the whispers of the dead.
|
X3S
Minmatar
SYOID
Fimbulwinter
|
Posted - 2007.01.24 11:06:00 -
[12]
I don't want to mention those that have perished before me. The innocent victims that have met they're end, but rather look those that live now, freed from oppression. And violence isnt the only way to free slaves, I've freed about 11000 without firing a single weapon.
 |
Ikar Kaltin
Amarr
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.01.24 11:24:00 -
[13]
The problem forming in my mind is not on the issue of shooting down pirates, whether they will go and change their ways and become a new person. They have made their choice to act as they will. It is those that are not given a choice by the actions of indiviudal pilots, and what right the pilot has to choose the choice for those others.
Which brings me to another confusing points.
Do you class yourself as the same as ordinary people? Ordinary people have but a single chance at life, we have many. Are we the same as they are? Or has cloning changed us from being one with the people we claim to serve. Are our ideals born out of a sense of immortality, with an almost sense of God like power. Does cloning give us the right not to die...the right the choose life or death for others, as we do not die ourselves?
|
Scagga Laebetrovo
Delictum 23216
|
Posted - 2007.01.24 11:35:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Scagga Laebetrovo on 24/01/2007 11:31:54
Edited by: Scagga Laebetrovo on 24/01/2007 11:31:22
Originally by: Camperific
Rabble rabble rabble...I tried to read it,but the sameness of every other pro-slaver speech made me fall asleep.
*wanders off in search of entertainment*
"Philosophy began with the sense of boredom" - Lin Yutang
Try to prevent your ADHD from impairing your long, long path to enlightenment. Death or slavery? Slavery ab initio ad finem.
Delictum 23216 Official forums |
Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
|
Posted - 2007.01.24 11:48:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Ly'sol
There is no god, there is no right or wrong people. Only right or wrong actions from a moral standpoint.
The Amarr religion is a stanchent of control and pre-programing to ensure its own continuance. The Slaves that are murderered in the name of someone elses freedom may have died in this world. But in other world lines, there is no such death.
The events are different and whilst I and you have suffered permenate death in other world lines. The infinity of the super-verse balances us all out.
Thier actions can be called wrong by you. Yet at the same time your actions are wrong to them. It's as it should be, natures balance.
So by your reckoning, since our slaves may be free in some other make-believe reality in this superverse of yours, it doesn't matter that they are owned chattels in the real world.
Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori
It's great being Amarr, ain't it? |
Andreus Ixiris
Gallente
Phoenix Wing
Electus Matari
|
Posted - 2007.01.24 12:08:00 -
[16]
Yes, I would fight and I would die for freedom even were there no cloning facilities. I believe in the cause of freedom for all strongly enough that I'd throw my life away if it would mean that just one more slave would be free from ill-treatment and bondage. The fact that I can sacrifice my life over and over again to do this is just an added bonus.
And you're right - life is possibility. But the overwhelming majority of slavers (Archbishop, for example, who puts his slaves in airtight cans in deep space, with only hungry, rabid animals for company) take opportunities away from the people they enslave. Perhaps it is cruel to take away the lives of those who have been treated kindly but a quick, painless death is better than a life of abuse and pain, which is what most slaves in the Empire, Amarr, Ni-Kunni, Khanid, Minmatar or otherwise face every day.
Is that not theft of possibility? Could those slaves not shine in their own ways if given the chance, could they not become businessmen or soldiers, fathers, mothers, artists, scientists, sportsmen?
If we are wrong, then that makes the slavers no more right. As for the Reclaimers who claim that every man, woman and child in the cluster is the rightful property of the Amarr - is that not wrong as well?
|
Scagga Laebetrovo
Delictum 23216
|
Posted - 2007.01.24 12:12:00 -
[17]
Quote:
Perhaps it is cruel to take away the lives of those who have been treated kindly but a quick, painless death is better than a life of abuse and pain, which is what most slaves in the Empire, Amarr, Ni-Kunni, Khanid, Minmatar or otherwise face every day.
Ha! The House of Marek's Slave Enhancement Programme must be working well enough for you to omit Ammatar-held adopted workers. *smiles*
Delictum 23216 Official forums |
Camperific
Es and Whizz
Hedonistic Imperative
|
Posted - 2007.01.24 12:46:00 -
[18]
Try to prevent your ADHD from impairing your long, long path to enlightenment. Death or slavery? Slavery ab initio ad finem.
A good choice of word's,however it is you who is walking the long,long path to enlightenment not me.Does the epmire shutting the tanoo/ashab highway gate mean nothing to you?
The mandate's market has collapsed and you have been left surrounded by enemies.
My eye's are open,it is you who need's to realise you are nothing more than a slave kept at arm's length.
|
Merdaneth
Amarr
PIE Inc.
|
Posted - 2007.01.24 12:57:00 -
[19]
Death is the ultimate restriction of 'freedom' people can impose upon others in this universe. Death ends all possible choices and futures for a person. That fact makes the killing of slaves in order to promote 'freedom' indeed hard to understand and justify.
Ikar Kaltin pointed out that the people who support the ideology of "better dead than a slave" are in fact forcing their choice upon others.
I think it is even more insidious than that. Let us consider the people that say this, these people have:
A. Been a slave themselves, but (obviously) never committed suicide while enslaved, which makes them hypocrits.
B. Have never been a slave themselves, and thus cannot properly judge if death is indeed preferable to slavery, which makes them ignorant.
If you look at it rationally, it is a stupid position to take. It is fortunate that only a minority of the Minmatar think this way.
|
Andreus Ixiris
Gallente
Phoenix Wing
Electus Matari
|
Posted - 2007.01.24 13:06:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Merdaneth
Death is the ultimate restriction of 'freedom' people can impose upon others in this universe. Death ends all possible choices and futures for a person. That fact makes the killing of slaves in order to promote 'freedom' indeed hard to understand and justify.
Ikar Kaltin pointed out that the people who support the ideology of "better dead than a slave" are in fact forcing their choice upon others.
I think it is even more insidious than that. Let us consider the people that say this, these people have:
A. Been a slave themselves, but (obviously) never committed suicide while enslaved, which makes them hypocrits.
B. Have never been a slave themselves, and thus cannot properly judge if death is indeed preferable to slavery, which makes them ignorant.
If you look at it rationally, it is a stupid position to take. It is fortunate that only a minority of the Minmatar think this way.
You could of course end all of these problems by freeing all of your slaves to make their own choices, and failing that, not administer Vitoc so that if they prefer death to slavery, it is not painful to make that choice.
|
|
Darina Rea
Harvest System
|
Posted - 2007.01.24 13:19:00 -
[21]
The value of life right? It's both more precious then anything you can even imagen and more worthless then a pile of garbage. That's the value of life!
Life isn't what you can make of it. There are countless of people in the cluster that just want to oppress you, only to get your ISK and have them serve you. How can life be what you make of it when a tree decides it's had enough of it's life and falls over on top of you? How can you decide how to live your life when the drugs baron next to you decides that you need to die for protesting the selling of drugs?
Chance and opportunity, in short, that's life. When you have freedom of choice and the opportunity to do whatever you choose then you are truely free? No, it just means you're independent of others. A man living as the only one in a solar system isn't free. He's lonely.
With other human beings, whatever their race, your freedom gets limited simply because those other people have their own ideas, goals and upbringing that will influence yours and in return you will influence them aswell.
Lastly, people aren't equal and it's an illusion to say they are. You don't let someone without the talents needed for it lead your fleet no matter how much he wants it, that would be stupid. You don't let the miner decide how to outfit your pirate ship, that's stupid. Similarly, you don't give the miner advice on how to mine, he knows and will just get annoyed. Some are destined to serve and some aren't.
That's the way of life.
_________
Time is on our side. |
Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
|
Posted - 2007.01.24 13:33:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Andreus Ixiris
You could of course end all of these problems by freeing all of your slaves to make their own choices, and failing that, not administer Vitoc so that if they prefer death to slavery, it is not painful to make that choice.
I don't believe it.
I don't believe that there are still people out there who think that all slaves are controlled using the Vitoc method.
In fact, Vitoc is only aadministered to a minority of slaves.
Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori
It's great being Amarr, ain't it? |
X3S
Minmatar
SYOID
Fimbulwinter
|
Posted - 2007.01.24 13:52:00 -
[23]
True rodj, some are brain washed into slavery.
|
Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
|
Posted - 2007.01.24 14:00:00 -
[24]
Originally by: X3S
True rodj, some are brain washed into slavery.
It's interesting that you use the term brain-washed.
You see in a sense we do cleanse the brains of our our slaves. We wash away the sin, and the worry. What's so wrong about that?
Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori
It's great being Amarr, ain't it? |
Merdaneth
Amarr
PIE Inc.
|
Posted - 2007.01.24 14:03:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Andreus Ixiris
You could of course end all of these problems by freeing all of your slaves to make their own choices, and failing that, not administer Vitoc so that if they prefer death to slavery, it is not painful to make that choice.
And of course, we could free all the prisoners too, free everyone who is under some kind of contractual obligation, abolish marriage, toss out all customs, norms, laws and regulations. Unfortunately, all these are neccessary elements to society.
I am convinced that enslavement is a neccessary element for a moral society, you may be convinced that imprisonement is a neccessary element for a moral society. We may disagree about some elements that restrict freedoms, and agree about others. But slavery does not have a special position, it is not fundamentally different from all these other neccessary constraints. It is just something you personally don't like.
Concerning your comments Vitoc, I would refer you to a previous essay of mine about slavery, since you obviously have no clue about its use, because Vitoc in fact makes it easier for a slave to choose between slavery and death, not harder.
|
Merdaneth
Amarr
PIE Inc.
|
Posted - 2007.01.24 14:38:00 -
[26]
Originally by: X3S
True rodj, some are brain washed into slavery.
I prefer the term 'soul-cleansing' myself.
Camar, your leader, uses the term re-education when he speaks about brainwashing the slaves he abducts.
I don't see any fundamental difference.
Our methods have been refined by millenia of experience and the guidance of God. We are proud of our methods, and we don't feel any compunction hide them or misdirect by using alternate words. The people who do hide their 're-education' usually have selfish or ulterior motives, they are afraid their true goals will be seen. Our intention is clear: we do it to save souls.
The only organization that I don't see using similar methods is Star Fraction. They prefer outright murder, stating that corrupted souls are in fact unsaveable. Fortunately the Amarr religion is much more caring and hopeful than that.
|
Angelice
Minmatar
British Space Corporation
|
Posted - 2007.01.24 15:03:00 -
[27]
You imply that the slavers have no choice in the taking of their lives by freedom fighters. This is clearly not the case since they have a clear and perfectly stated choice: To renounce slavery or to pay for their theft of freedom and humanity with their life.
If they chose the latter, to continue the barbaric practice of slavery, then they should be well aware of the risk this poses to their continued existence. Should they embrace the value of life then they know what they have to do.
With regards to the value of the innocent lives that are lost in the struggle for freedom, you cannot argue that the weight of these are on the conscience of the freedom fighters. It is the slavers who have subjected them to their fate, in your own words they are stock from the moment of their abduction. In the eyes of the freedom fighters, the more that regain thier humanity and the fewer that become victims of this struggle the better.
Do not dare to presume however that you have any grounds on which to use them as blackmail in this argument. They are participants in this battle by your doing and your doing alone.
Angelice
British Space Corps
"To see the right and not to do it is cowardice." - Confucius
|
Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
|
Posted - 2007.01.24 15:08:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Angelice
You imply that the slavers have no choice in the taking of their lives by freedom fighters. This is clearly not the case since they have a clear and perfectly stated choice: To renounce slavery or to pay for their theft of freedom and humanity with their life.
The issue is whether or not the slaves have a choice when they are murdered by terrorists.
But to answer your specific point, asking a slaver to give up his slaves is like asking a mother to give up her new-born child.
Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori
It's great being Amarr, ain't it? |
Angelice
Minmatar
British Space Corporation
|
Posted - 2007.01.24 15:15:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Rodj Blake
The issue is whether or not the slaves have a choice when they are murdered by terrorists.
But to answer your specific point, asking a slaver to give up his slaves is like asking a mother to give up her new-born child.
Hence why I stated quite clearly that this was an implication of the argument put forth.
With regards to your analogy, I'm affraid your point is entirely false. A mother who steals a child from another, regardless of the love she might have for the child, is not a mother but a criminal.
Angelice
British Space Corps
"To see the right and not to do it is cowardice." - Confucius
|
Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
|
Posted - 2007.01.24 15:27:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Angelice
A mother who steals a child from another, regardless of the love she might have for the child, is not a mother but a criminal.
You are right, these terrorist monsters who steal slaves from their rightful owners are indeed criminals.
Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori
It's great being Amarr, ain't it? |
|
| Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |