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Deitra Vess
Scope Works Psychotic Tendencies.
868
|
Posted - 2016.01.14 17:15:26 -
[31] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Ms. Vess:
Are you really comfortable saying that a slave always has a choice? It's maybe technically true, but saying such a thing seems to reflect a lot of contempt for people I ... think you're trying to save.
Aren't you?
Do you actually think plantation workers should all exercise their options to scale the fences and be eaten by slaver dogs? Or that pleasure hub slaves are only there because they don't choose to fight back or kill themselves?
I don't know whether you've ever really been helpless. I have. (I think Ms. Kim might have, but she seems to have learned a bajillion wrong lessons from it.) It's horrible, being trapped. And it wasn't even anything especially ... awful, otherwise. I was just locked in my quarters while someone decided whether I could be allowed to exist. They decided to err on the side of letting me live, so, here I am.
What are they supposed to do, Ms. Vess? The Cartel knows very well how to control people. Their families will be under threat. Parents. Siblings. Many of them have probably been systematically addicted to something-- maybe even vitoc.
And if all of that fails, remember the first rule of torture:
Everyone breaks. Everyone.
They have a choice? Even in a culture that believes strongly in free will-- really?
I think I must have glossed over something or......... I dunno'.
Only thing I said was free will can't exist without being strong willed. Obviously there are exceptions (such as being held against your will by gun point). But being weak willed means your more susceptible to being coerced into doing things against your will.
As far as our people in slavery's will, how many rebelled in the great rebellion and won their freedom through their own sheer determination? They obviously had a strong will, but also opportunity knocked. If they didn't have a strong will, the opportunity would have been wasted. If opportunity knocked tomorrow and none of them had the will to try to free themselves, well, that's their choice. Doesn't mean I like it but at the same time I'm not forcing my own to do anything against their will. Personally I pity them a little bit for not living up to the expectations their ancestors set for them. We have always been a strong people, countless freedom fighters have died to give them the opportunities they deserve. Spitting in their face is wrong on so many levels.
Have I suffered in the past, or been helpless for any time span in my life? My brother and I certainly have. Respectfully, how I have is none of the rest of the IGS's business and I'm not about to post about it (feel free to ask me in private if you so wish). I also don't wish to turn my response into a pity party as I'm sure you feel the same. Knowing how things transform on the IGS out of nothing I'd think you would agree. Through my will and determination I overcame it and here I am today. Opportunity had a major impact on turning my luck. Much as the decision they made to open the door and let you live was an opportunity you capitalized on.
As far as what are they to do? Well I think the theme of what I'm saying is pretty obvious. Stay strong, and wait for their opportunity to arise. I know its much easier said than done. Exactly how can anyone have any effect on EVERY person in this plight? Simply put ya' can't. What you can do is give that opportunity to a few and hope others follow suit.
Lastly, I don't fight to free my people, that's a goal well beyond my abilities or even the whole Republic for that matter. I fight to allow my people the opportunity to fight for themselves. Its up to them whether they have the will to do it. Just as our ancestors had the Gallante and Jove, I aim to give them the same opportunity.
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Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
2333
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Posted - 2016.01.14 17:29:50 -
[32] - Quote
Deitra Vess wrote: Only thing I said was free will can't exist without being strong willed. Obviously there are exceptions (such as being held against your will by gun point). But being weak willed means your more susceptible to being coerced into doing things against your will.
Those, who can be held against their "will" by gun point don't have will at all and are just creeping pigs in clothes!
Deitra Vess wrote:We have always been a strong people, countless freedom fighters have died to give them the opportunities they deserve. Excuse me, but from my humble point of view the mere existence of such phenomenon as chaos fighters is a heinous crime against the civilization and human nature.
Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.
In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
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Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
1862
|
Posted - 2016.01.14 17:45:58 -
[33] - Quote
Deitra Vess wrote:I think I must have glossed over something or......... I dunno'.
Respectfully, reading the rest of your remarks, I think the "gloss" was just that you agreed with something Kim-haani said. You didn't mean, for example, to say that pleasure hub workers should kill themselves rather than be subjected to degrading conditions; you meant to say that they should stay strong (probably a lot of them are, very) and wait for a chance to change their circumstances.
Ms. Kim didn't mean any such thing. She seems to have been closer to the specifics of this scenario than (I hope) either of us, but ... I'm pretty sure she's kicking herself more or less continuously for not finding the means to kill everybody involved, go down fighting, or at least end her life then and there.
And she doesn't have any more compassion for people in that position than for herself.
(That seems to just be a "human thing," by the way. People who've suffered apparently tend to have a lot of empathy for others' suffering-- unless that suffering mirrors their own. Then they get all "suck it up" and "show some backbone" or whatever.)
(Not that Kim-haani shows a lot of compassion for people suffering differently, but I'm attributing that to other causes.) |
Lunarisse Aspenstar
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
680
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Posted - 2016.01.14 17:51:36 -
[34] - Quote
Nauplius wrote: The latter two [customers and employees], unless the owner sets foot inside the Pleasure Hub, then she, too, be forever damned.
Lunarisse Aspenstar wrote: This makes no sense. Or does "aiding and abetting" or "facilitating" not count in your strange and bizarre little theological furrier hole?
Aria Jenneth wrote: Respectfully, Directrix, it makes perfect sense form the point of view of allowing the "Chosen" to profit handsomely off other people's, uh, ... pleasures, and even use them as a method for tormenting and killing people "given over to destruction" in very profitable ways, so long as the "Chosen" don't partake of their own wares.
In other words, it's right in line with some of the stuff he's already done, if a little more profit-oriented.
However, he does not make that distinction as to who owns a Pleasure Hub, whether it be operated by Blood Raiders, Serpentis or Angels (some of whom are matari). |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
1862
|
Posted - 2016.01.14 17:59:22 -
[35] - Quote
Lunarisse Aspenstar wrote:However, he does not make that distinction as to who owns a Pleasure Hub, whether it be operated by Blood Raiders, Serpentis or Angels (some of whom are matari). Well ... that's true, Directrix, but it doesn't really change my analysis. It looks like he's just leaving a door open by which he can profit from misery without having to carve himself a special exception.
When has Nauplius ever turned his back on any method by which he could make people (especially Minmatar) suffer? |
Deitra Vess
Scope Works Psychotic Tendencies.
868
|
Posted - 2016.01.14 18:05:51 -
[36] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:Deitra Vess wrote:I think I must have glossed over something or......... I dunno'. Respectfully, reading the rest of your remarks, I think the "gloss" was just that you agreed with something Kim-haani said. You didn't mean, for example, to say that pleasure hub workers should kill themselves rather than be subjected to degrading conditions; you meant to say that they should stay strong (probably a lot of them are, very) and wait for a chance to change their circumstances. Ms. Kim didn't mean any such thing. She seems to have been closer to the specifics of this scenario than (I hope) either of us, but ... I'm pretty sure she's kicking herself more or less continuously for not finding the means to kill everybody involved, go down fighting, or at least end her life then and there. And she doesn't have any more compassion for people in that position than for herself. (That seems to just be a "human thing," by the way. People who've suffered apparently tend to have a lot of empathy for others' suffering-- unless that suffering mirrors their own. Then they get all "suck it up" and "show some backbone" or whatever.) (Not that Kim-haani shows a lot of compassion for people suffering differently, but I'm attributing that to other causes.)
Ya, I only really agreed with free will and strong will being entwined. Anything I've gone through in life is nothing like what anyone enslaved go through. Can't say I'm not grateful for how minor my problems were. Sorry for the confusion. |
Nauplius
Hoi Andrapodistai
591
|
Posted - 2016.01.14 22:18:18 -
[37] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:I don't recall how I know this (considering my predecessor's affiliations, I can kind of guess, though), but I seem to remember that a lot of "employees" of Serpentis and Cartel pleasure hubs aren't at all there of their own free will. Are they likewise damned? No one has free will, and enslaved employees in Pleasure Hubs are still given over to destruction. This may seem cruel to you, but God has foreordained everything that comes to pass, and God's Providence insures that those whom he has elected unto salvation are not enslaved into Pleasure Hub service. Those who are enslaved into Pleasure Hub service on the other hand, God has ordained unto destruction from the beginning of the world.
Lunarisse Aspenstar wrote:This makes no sense. Or does "aiding and abetting" or "facilitating" not count in your strange and bizarre little theological furrier hole? Those who own and operate Pleasure Hubs have sinned and are in danger of the Judgement, but they are not (unless being Minmatar or by entering their own or some other Pleasure Hub) thereby given over to destruction. Being given over to destruction has a precise meaning in my system; it means that they may be treated as if they are already in Hell; they may be tortured and tormented and enslaved in the most cruel and sadistic ways (cruelty and sadism being legitimate parts of God's creation, and God has in his wisdom given us Chosen these legitimate outlets for these emotions); their blood gives various boons to the Chosen, as described in the original post in the case of the Minmatar and here in the case of those found in Pleasure Hubs. To summarize the latter: The blood of the Exotic Dancers shall grant virility; The blood of the Marines shall grant courage; The blood of the Tourists shall grant fortune; The blood of the Janitors shall cleanse your soul of sin and make you worthy of standing before a holy and righteous God.
Please note that being given over to destruction does not exactly correspond with being sent to the Lowest Hell in the next life. You, Lady Aspenstar and Lady Jenneth and all other SFRIM members will burn in the Lowest Hell for your treason against God and me; however, you are not yet given over to destruction. Should you or your crews become my captive, I would not enslave you or torture you or sacrifice you to God, as I reserve those punishments for those whom God has given over to destruction.
I hope this clarification has been helpful. Amen. Amarr Victor. |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
1864
|
Posted - 2016.01.14 23:00:59 -
[38] - Quote
Nauplius wrote:Please note that being given over to destruction does not exactly correspond with being sent to the Lowest Hell in the next life. You, Lady Aspenstar and Lady Jenneth and all other SFRIM members will burn in the Lowest Hell for your treason against God and me; however, you are not yet given over to destruction. Should you or your crews become my captive, I would not enslave you or torture you or sacrifice you to God, as I reserve those punishments for those whom God has given over to destruction.
I hope this clarification has been helpful.
It has. Thank you.
Um. And by way of returning the favor....
Quote:No one has free will, and enslaved employees in Pleasure Hubs are still given over to destruction. This may seem cruel to you, but God has foreordained everything that comes to pass, and God's Providence insures that those whom he has elected unto salvation are not enslaved into Pleasure Hub service. Those who are enslaved into Pleasure Hub service on the other hand, God has ordained unto destruction from the beginning of the world.
Nauplius? For the sake of your soul ...
Never.
Ever.
Get captured.
('Cause now everybody knows just where to send you. That's another helpful clarification.) |
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
2363
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 11:05:45 -
[39] - Quote
Nauplius wrote: The blood of the Marines shall grant courage;
COME HERE AND TRY IT. I DARE YOU. I will even leave my door open.
Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.
In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
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Anyanka Funk
Sanguis Inceptum Of Questionable Repute
624
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 11:30:46 -
[40] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote:Nauplius wrote: The blood of the Marines shall grant courage;
COME HERE AND TRY IT. I DARE YOU. I will even leave my door open.
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Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
2368
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 11:33:09 -
[41] - Quote
NOT YOU!
Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.
In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
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Nauplius
Hoi Andrapodistai
594
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 12:14:56 -
[42] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote:Nauplius wrote: The blood of the Marines shall grant courage;
COME HERE AND TRY IT. I DARE YOU. I will even leave my door open.
Only Marines found in Pleasure Hubs. Are you saying, Diana Kim, that you are a Marine and visit Pleasure Hubs? Then your blood grants Courage to the Chosen. Otherwise, it does not. |
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
2368
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 12:38:17 -
[43] - Quote
Nauplius wrote:Diana Kim wrote:Nauplius wrote: The blood of the Marines shall grant courage;
COME HERE AND TRY IT. I DARE YOU. I will even leave my door open. Only Marines found in Pleasure Hubs. Are you saying, Diana Kim, that you are a Marine and visit Pleasure Hubs? Then your blood grants Courage to the Chosen. Otherwise, it does not. ACK!!! Of course no! I am sorry, I didn't mean that! Of course I don't visit Pleasure Hubs!
Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.
In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
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Skyweir Kinnison
Eleutherian Guard Villore Accords
172
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 15:27:15 -
[44] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote: ACK!!! Of course no! I am sorry, I didn't mean that! Of course I don't visit Pleasure Hubs!
Such a pity.
You are in more dire need of a deep tissue massage than any stiff neck in history.
Humanity has won its battle. Liberty now has a country.
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Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
2368
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 15:42:57 -
[45] - Quote
Skyweir Kinnison wrote:Diana Kim wrote: ACK!!! Of course no! I am sorry, I didn't mean that! Of course I don't visit Pleasure Hubs!
Such a pity. You are in more dire need of a deep tissue massage than any stiff neck in history. How about I give you some deep tissue massage instead?...
With my fist.
Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.
In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
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Skyweir Kinnison
Eleutherian Guard Villore Accords
172
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 15:49:34 -
[46] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote:Skyweir Kinnison wrote:Diana Kim wrote: ACK!!! Of course no! I am sorry, I didn't mean that! Of course I don't visit Pleasure Hubs!
Such a pity. You are in more dire need of a deep tissue massage than any stiff neck in history. How about I give you some deep tissue massage instead?... With my fist.
*raises eyebrow amusedly*
Sounds fun, sweetie. Would you like dinner first?
Humanity has won its battle. Liberty now has a country.
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Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
2368
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 15:53:46 -
[47] - Quote
Skyweir Kinnison wrote:Diana Kim wrote:Skyweir Kinnison wrote:Diana Kim wrote: ACK!!! Of course no! I am sorry, I didn't mean that! Of course I don't visit Pleasure Hubs!
Such a pity. You are in more dire need of a deep tissue massage than any stiff neck in history. How about I give you some deep tissue massage instead?... With my fist. *raises eyebrow amusedly*Sounds fun, sweetie. Would you like dinner first? No.
Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.
In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
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Deitra Vess
Scope Works Psychotic Tendencies.
875
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 16:20:39 -
[48] - Quote
Cheap date... Someone's standards are low. |
Malasar Ravaan
House Ravaan Imperial Holdings
1
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Posted - 2016.01.17 06:27:59 -
[49] - Quote
Excellent post Nauplius, Amarr Victor.
Our enemies' blood will paint the blackness of space, a terrible testament to our power. Only God's great Empire shall remain, a beacon of light to guide us in these dark and perilous times. Amarr, ad victoriam! Nam claritas Imperii!
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Kalo Askold
Sanguis Inceptum Of Questionable Repute
33
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Posted - 2016.01.17 09:38:50 -
[50] - Quote
This is just getting silly |
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Claudia Osyn
Minmatar Confederate Ushra'Khan
1598
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 04:45:25 -
[51] - Quote
Kalo Askold wrote:This is just getting silly Getting? My dear, we past silly a ways back. This is the land of repetitive "comedy".
A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
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Sanguina Dieudonne
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
86
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Posted - 2016.01.19 09:21:20 -
[52] - Quote
Me and my big mouth. |
Johanes Beaumonte
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
90
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Posted - 2016.01.19 12:24:56 -
[53] - Quote
Malasar Ravaan wrote:Excellent post Nauplius, Amarr Victor.
Another fruitcake! I mean.. Blood Raider reveals himself! |
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