Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 [16] 17 18 19 20 30 40 50 60 70 .. 74 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
Beta Maoye
86
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 08:28:02 -
[451] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Beta Maoye wrote:If a player is presented with two options to increase his skill points by 500,000, first is an instant injection that priced as 300M, second is to use a quarter of PLEX time(185 hours), which is also valued as 300M, to train it up, a player will always choose the instant injection. These two options are not equal. The advantage of instant injection provides additional value to the player. The first option has a premium over the second option. It really doesn't, because no SP is instant, all of it was produced the same way. Someone trained it the same way you would yourself and the only premium to consider is what you can get away with depending on how much supply there is. There is no second base cost of the time to account for. The market will decide its true value. |
Frank Pannon
183
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 08:31:35 -
[452] - Quote
Picman wrote:Well, I am completely against this wonderful feature with SP transfers. Not sure where the forum is where people agreed this feature would be welcome, I must have visited the wrong forum all time. In my opinion this feature is not here to make it easier for new characters. Compared to some years ago the game start has been made by far easier for newbies already. The only reason why SP transfers will be introduced is CCP's wish to earn more money with the game. CCP, if you really just want to give new players an easier start, then seed these empty skill injectors to npc market offers or even better, add them to the loot tables so that everyone can find them. This way they'd also be available, but there will be no additional dollars for you. Pity I believe this would reduce your interest in this new feature to zero. So as the SP transfer will come anyway, at least tell the truth that the only reason is to milk the cow and don't pretend you want to make it easier for anyone. Best regards, Picman
This will be an option, you do not have to participate, noone forces you.
CCP is a company, not a charity. They need money to pay employees, to develop, to keep this game running. I think we can all agree on that.
So if this feature enables some new players to catch up and enjoy the game, while at the same time gives another revenue source to CCP, than it is really a win-win situation.
I have yet to read an argument here, that would depict a serious threat to current "meta". But I keep reading.
All I ask is to keep an open mind. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1857
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 08:37:05 -
[453] - Quote
Beta Maoye wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Beta Maoye wrote:If a player is presented with two options to increase his skill points by 500,000, first is an instant injection that priced as 300M, second is to use a quarter of PLEX time(185 hours), which is also valued as 300M, to train it up, a player will always choose the instant injection. These two options are not equal. The advantage of instant injection provides additional value to the player. The first option has a premium over the second option. It really doesn't, because no SP is instant, all of it was produced the same way. Someone trained it the same way you would yourself and the only premium to consider is what you can get away with depending on how much supply there is. There is no second base cost of the time to account for. The market will decide its true value. That's actually my point, there is no flat price for the service of selling your time, thus no 2nd counting of that time. The profit on selling your time is what the market will bear, nothing else.
|
Zozoll Neblyn
Ziggurat Forge
11
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 08:40:16 -
[454] - Quote
I forsee an increase in the price of "Prototype Cerebral Accelerators". Since the quickest way to get skill points fast would be to start a new alt and skill it for a month or two (depending what the minimum SP is to be able to extract.)
Frank Pannon wrote:
So if this feature enables some new players to catch up and enjoy the game, while at the same time gives another revenue source to CCP, than it is really a win-win situation.
I have yet to read an argument here, that would depict a serious threat to current "meta". But I keep reading.
All I ask is to keep an open mind.
It allows rich new players to experience it, lol. Or established characters with lots of ISK to rapidly build up alts.
|
Zakks
Zakks Shop
24
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 08:40:53 -
[455] - Quote
When do I get to buy my Golden bullet$? |
Arithron
107th Suicide Kings Nihilists Social Club
23
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 08:47:54 -
[456] - Quote
What you are all forgetting is to factor in the cost, in Aurum (so ultimately isk --> RL$$), of a player buying the extractor.
The price for the extractor and the calculated cost of training the SP, plus the availability, will determine the cost of the injector. There is a minimum cost to this, which will be significantly higher than 300 mil isk. This is due to the cost of PLEX-and also due to the cost of characters on the CB.
In order to entice players to sell SP, there must be a profitable return. Also, I can see isk devaluation occurring as SP selling will bring more iskies into the game (although CCP will ultimately profit due to aurum and PLEX sales). Devaluation will increase PLEX prices etc etc....expect to see a pretty wild cycle occurring.
Expect also large increases on characters in the CB, who will be valued on the number of SP that can be harvested from them. |
Memphis Baas
941
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 08:52:39 -
[457] - Quote
As a side-effect, you're bringing the skill donors and the skill buyers to Jita, because carrying injectors in cargoholds is a recipe for disaster. It probably won't have the volume that PLEX trading has, but the SP can't be donated by trade alts, nor can it be injected by alts. The mains have to come to Jita. Hopefully you're prepared for the increased load on the node. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1857
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 08:52:48 -
[458] - Quote
Arithron wrote:What you are all forgetting is to factor in the cost, in Aurum (so ultimately isk --> RL$$), of a player buying the extractor.
The price for the extractor and the calculated cost of training the SP, plus the availability, will determine the cost of the injector. There is a minimum cost to this, which will be significantly higher than 300 mil isk. This is due to the cost of PLEX-and also due to the cost of characters on the CB.
In order to entice players to sell SP, there must be a profitable return. Also, I can see isk devaluation occurring as SP selling will bring more iskies into the game (although CCP will ultimately profit due to aurum and PLEX sales). Devaluation will increase PLEX prices etc etc....expect to see a pretty wild cycle occurring.
Expect also large increases on characters in the CB, who will be valued on the number of SP that can be harvested from them. No one's forgetting, we just don't have a price to factor since somehow between 2 blogs we don't even have a ballpark figure. Also I'm sure it's been explicitly mentioned in recent exchanges.
Interestingly I wonder how many non-training accounts are out there which could increase the amount of SP being generated without consuming additional PLEX. Further I wonder how much PLEX will get introduced from people trying to buy these with PLEX. |
Arithron
107th Suicide Kings Nihilists Social Club
23
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 08:59:19 -
[459] - Quote
Sign the petition here to prevent 80mil+ characters being able to buy more SP!
We don't need too, we are SP rich
Petition to have upper limit on SP injector use
Any vet who whines obviously has your iskies in his/her sights. A couple of the larger alliances seem quite happy with this implementation. |
shaun 27
Gallente Rebels Inc. Villore Accords
13
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 09:09:15 -
[460] - Quote
Frank Pannon wrote:Picman wrote:Well, I am completely against this wonderful feature with SP transfers. Not sure where the forum is where people agreed this feature would be welcome, I must have visited the wrong forum all time. In my opinion this feature is not here to make it easier for new characters. Compared to some years ago the game start has been made by far easier for newbies already. The only reason why SP transfers will be introduced is CCP's wish to earn more money with the game. CCP, if you really just want to give new players an easier start, then seed these empty skill injectors to npc market offers or even better, add them to the loot tables so that everyone can find them. This way they'd also be available, but there will be no additional dollars for you. Pity I believe this would reduce your interest in this new feature to zero. So as the SP transfer will come anyway, at least tell the truth that the only reason is to milk the cow and don't pretend you want to make it easier for anyone. Best regards, Picman This will be an option, you do not have to participate, noone forces you. CCP is a company, not a charity. They need money to pay employees, to develop, to keep this game running. I think we can all agree on that. So if this feature enables some new players to catch up and enjoy the game, while at the same time gives another revenue source to CCP, than it is really a win-win situation. I have yet to read an argument here, that would depict a serious threat to current "meta". But I keep reading. All I ask is to keep an open mind.
Problem is though new players catching up their will be 2 classes. one with money and one with not and it then becomes a game of keeping up with the joneses. Eve has got a demographic problem with sp but this is not the way to go about it. It will create alot more problems then solve.
Yeah i will bet their will be a slight increase in numbers when this hits but it will be short lived because i feel it will bring the wrong type of person to the game, which is people who come along chip in few skills and eventually get bored because they been their done that got to that top lvl and leave again. |
|
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
5671
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 09:09:57 -
[461] - Quote
Dosperado wrote:This announcement is the lowest point in the whole history of EVE Online.
Just cancelled my EVE subscription after 13 years of faithfulness.
I don't want to play Pay2Win games and I will never come back.
Good bye to all I played with in the last couple of years. And no, you can't have my stuff!
I will announce the destruction of my highsec carrier later in another thread... Can I have your stuff skill points? |
Reiisha
Repracor Industries
789
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 09:13:33 -
[462] - Quote
Not sure how to feel about this. If this goes through i'd at least like to see injectors not giving any SP at all over 150m or so.
This has the benefit of keeping the price of the injectors down in the long run. There's enough trillionaires who would otherwise simply buy it all up and max their characters instantly.
Skills are a core part of EVE, in that it forces you to plan ahead and be prepared. Introducing this kind of mechanic makes skills feel somewhat irrelevant.
Another negative effect i'm fairly sure people haven't thought about - Your account gets hacked (somehow), and some Chinese dude drains ALL your SP. Now you not only have the isk flow to track, but may have to explain to people how they are being 'robbed' of SP they bought legitimately off the market....
Botters who can now quickly reskill new accounts and keep on going.
Seems like this hasn't really been thought through....
If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all...
|
Sekai
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 09:17:08 -
[463] - Quote
|
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
311
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 09:17:23 -
[464] - Quote
Reiisha wrote:Not sure how to feel about this. If this goes through i'd at least like to see injectors not giving any SP at all over 150m or so.
This has the benefit of keeping the price of the injectors down in the long run. There's enough trillionaires who would otherwise simply buy it all up and max their characters instantly.
Skills are a core part of EVE, in that it forces you to plan ahead and be prepared. Introducing this kind of mechanic makes skills feel somewhat irrelevant.
Another negative effect i'm fairly sure people haven't thought about - Your account gets hacked (somehow), and some Chinese dude drains ALL your SP. Now you not only have the isk flow to track, but may have to explain to people how they are being 'robbed' of SP they bought legitimately off the market....
Botters who can now quickly reskill new accounts and keep on going.
Seems like this hasn't really been thought through....
Many players including myself would be long gone from Eve before the hackers can figure out how to do that. |
Baracuda
FinFleet Northern Coalition.
139
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 09:32:44 -
[465] - Quote
This whole is utterly bullshit. Pay-2-win sneakes into EVE. |
Reiisha
Repracor Industries
789
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 09:34:45 -
[466] - Quote
Something else that just sprung up in my mind - This allows sub 50m characters to basically respec without losing too much SP...
Why not add a respec option as well to make this even easier? /sarcasm
I'm just getting this strange, odd taste in my mouth. The feature isn't designed to 'help the players', it's designed to be monetized and it's so obvious it almost hurts. This devblog also indicates that they want EVERYONE to use it. Well, everyone who can afford it.
Adding to this comes Valkyrie and Gunjack (Dust and Legion seem to have been forgotten entirely). I was rather stoked for Valkyrie at first, but it started feeling like 'something on the side' with no relevance to EVE anymore except its setting. Gunjack left me wondering what the hell it was for since the announcement.
The games that feature actual integration into EVE have been sidelined and i'm almost 100% sure that CCP is currently working on another title which has no effect on the main game, to be announced shortly.
Add to this that the new features planned for EVE really aren't all that groundbreaking, but are actually just minor iterations on existing systems....
When did the plans for the 'ultimate scifi simulator' get sidelined? Star Citizen and Elite Dangerous will be offering content this and next year EVE has promised to deliver since 2004, but won't be implementing any time soon, or even in the next decade. Would anyone still play EVE if Elite offered player manufacturing and territorial control?
EVE hasn't fundamentally changed since it's inception. Sure, systems and mechanics have evolved, but the game itself is still exactly the same as it was on release, and only now i'm realizing it. EVE finally started feeling truly old.
What is going on? What has CCP been doing exactly, behind the scenes? Or am i just going crazy here?
If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all...
|
Demica Diaz
SE-1
182
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 09:43:44 -
[467] - Quote
Reiisha wrote:Something else that just sprung up in my mind - This allows sub 50m characters to basically respec without losing too much SP...
Why not add a respec option as well to make this even easier? /sarcasm
I'm just getting this strange, odd taste in my mouth. The feature isn't designed to 'help the players', it's designed to be monetized and it's so obvious it almost hurts. This devblog also indicates that they want EVERYONE to use it. Well, everyone who can afford it.
Adding to this comes Valkyrie and Gunjack (Dust and Legion seem to have been forgotten entirely). I was rather stoked for Valkyrie at first, but it started feeling like 'something on the side' with no relevance to EVE anymore except its setting. Gunjack left me wondering what the hell it was for since the announcement.
The games that feature actual integration into EVE have been sidelined and i'm almost 100% sure that CCP is currently working on another title which has no effect on the main game, to be announced shortly.
Add to this that the new features planned for EVE really aren't all that groundbreaking, but are actually just minor iterations on existing systems....
When did the plans for the 'ultimate scifi simulator' get sidelined? Star Citizen and Elite Dangerous will be offering content this and next year EVE has promised to deliver since 2004, but won't be implementing any time soon, or even in the next decade. Would anyone still play EVE if Elite offered player manufacturing and territorial control?
EVE hasn't fundamentally changed since it's inception. Sure, systems and mechanics have evolved, but the game itself is still exactly the same as it was on release, and only now i'm realizing it. EVE finally started feeling truly old.
What is going on? What has CCP been doing exactly, behind the scenes? Or am i just going crazy here?
You are not alone. I see so much more benefits to old vets than newbros with this feature. As old player I welcome change as it will benefit me. If I was newbro and looking at that 5D 11m 45s skill training and << INSTANT UPGRATE! Insert credit card here! >> button. It would leave bitter taste about EVE: |
Dr Conrad Murray
BACKUPLEGION
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 09:48:47 -
[468] - Quote
Demica Diaz wrote:You are not alone. I see so much more benefits to old vets than newbros with this feature. As old player I welcome change as it will benefit me. If I was newbro and looking at that 5D 11m 45s skill training and << INSTANT UPGRATE! Insert credit card here! >> button. It would leave bitter taste about EVE:
Like it or not, that button already exists in the form of the Character Bazaar. Once you get your head around that fact, everything else in the dev blog makes perfect sense.
|
Morkan Damosty
The Scope Gallente Federation
4
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 09:50:57 -
[469] - Quote
Hi Everyone,
Dev team said :
Quote:ItGÇÖs very important to note here that this means all the skillpoints available to buy on the market in EVE will have originated on other characters where they were trained at the normal rate. Player driven economies are key to EVE design and we want you to decide the value of traded skillpoints while we make sure there is one single mechanism that brings new skillpoints in to the system GÇô training.
1) First of all, the skills injector will only be available on the market in game, so the real question is -½ At what price ? -+ Another way to phrase the question: -½ Will skills injector accessible to players who do not have 5 or 10 years on Eve? -+
I doubt it.
Playing Eve is not spending time generating ISK for paying our monthly subscription or to purchase our skills injectors. Otherwise, it's no longer a game, but a work to do. Only former players can generate isk without efforts or in a funny way.
For me, despite a year and a half on Eve, I still canGÇÖt pay my subscription in game with Plex. Without spending my days generating isk in Eve in front of my screen, how could I?
Then buying in game a skills injector, the potential value of such device is so high, without being a Multi billionaire former player in Eve on, I do not think that will be possible.
This means this opportunity will be only for former players, those who are already so powerful and make laws in Eve universe. New players or those who do not spend 10 hours a day generating isk (because there are plenty of things to do in real life) will go their way.
2) Nowhere ItGÇÖs said that, after my skills extraction, I canGÇÖt do the skills injection on me. So the system will be used as skill points redistribution. If I was a former player with over 80 million SP, thatGÇÖs what I would do, extract my skills to reinject them elsewhere. Redistribution of my skills so.
This means that the injector skill will certainly not end up on the market.
And if CCP want to lock this ability, it would be impossible because we would just have to use an alt.
So, well ... it's not for us, players who do not have many years in this game. And that is sad.
Why CCP doesnGÇÖt see this. Maybe CCP have undeclared sub-objectives, nothing to do with the playability (money for example). Eve is a many years online game. As such, it faces the problem of all old online games: keeping ancient players by giving them new opportunities, while allowing novice players to have a place in the game. I have never seen a company succeed that, and found almost the same pattern: More content for former players (but inaccessible for new players), boost new players, artificially (e.g., schematic for any game, giving a novice player the ability to start level 140 rather than level 1, itGÇÖs a caricature, but that's it).
|
Steijn
Quay Industries
1038
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 09:52:24 -
[470] - Quote
pointless going over issues against this which have already been mentioned previously, but this is a really bad idea imo |
|
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
312
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 09:53:58 -
[471] - Quote
CCP what you are doing now by implementing this cancerous feature into Eve despite the enormous amount of opposition to the idea , is flat out betrayal.
I hope you're planning on changing your Corp name after you've milk this game down to the bone marrow because no one is ever going to trust anything released by CCP Games ever again (with the exception of pay2win fanatics of course). |
Dr Conrad Murray
BACKUPLEGION
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 09:57:16 -
[472] - Quote
Morkan Damosty wrote:If I was a former player with over 80 million SP, thatGÇÖs what I would do, extract my skills to reinject them elsewhere. Redistribution of my skills so.
If I had over 80 Million SP, I would remove 500 K and re-inject possibly as little as 150 K. Why the hell would I do this ?
|
Morkan Damosty
The Scope Gallente Federation
4
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 09:57:28 -
[473] - Quote
Morkan Damosty wrote:Hi Everyone, Dev team said : Quote:ItGÇÖs very important to note here that this means all the skillpoints available to buy on the market in EVE will have originated on other characters where they were trained at the normal rate. Player driven economies are key to EVE design and we want you to decide the value of traded skillpoints while we make sure there is one single mechanism that brings new skillpoints in to the system GÇô training. 1) First of all, the skills injector will only be available on the market in game, so the real question is -½ At what price ? -+ Another way to phrase the question: -½ Will skills injector accessible to players who do not have 5 or 10 years on Eve? -+ I doubt it. Playing Eve is not spending time generating ISK to be abble to pay our monthly subscription or to purchase our skills injectors. Otherwise, it's no longer a game, but a work to do. Only former players can generate isk without efforts or in a funny way. For me, despite a year and a half on Eve, I still canGÇÖt pay my subscription in game with Plex. Without spending my days generating isk in Eve in front of my screen, how could I? Then buying in game a skills injector, the potential value of such device is so high, without being a Multi billionaire former player in Eve, I do not think that will be possible. This means this opportunity will only be for former players, those who are already so powerful and make laws in Eve universe. New players or those who do not spend 10 hours a day generating isk (because there are plenty of things to do in real life) will go their way. 2) Nowhere ItGÇÖs said that, after my skills extraction, I canGÇÖt do the skills injection on me. So the system will be used as skill points redistribution. If I was a former player with over 80 million SP, thatGÇÖs what I would do, extract my skills to reinject them elsewhere. Redistribution of my skills so. This means that the injector skill will certainly not end up on the market. And if CCP want to lock this ability, it would be impossible because we would just have to use an alt. So, well ... it's not for us, players who do not have many years in this game. And that is sad. Why CCP doesnGÇÖt see this. Maybe CCP have undeclared sub-objectives, nothing to do with the playability (money for example). Eve is a many years online game. As such, it faces the problem of all old online games: keeping ancient players by giving them new opportunities, while allowing novice players to have a place in the game. I have never seen a company succeed that, and found almost the same pattern: More content for former players (but inaccessible for new players), boost new players, artificially (e.g., schematic for any game, giving a novice player the ability to start level 140 rather than level 1, itGÇÖs a caricature, but that's it). |
Reiisha
Repracor Industries
791
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 09:59:34 -
[474] - Quote
Dr Conrad Murray wrote:Demica Diaz wrote:You are not alone. I see so much more benefits to old vets than newbros with this feature. As old player I welcome change as it will benefit me. If I was newbro and looking at that 5D 11m 45s skill training and << INSTANT UPGRATE! Insert credit card here! >> button. It would leave bitter taste about EVE: Like it or not, that button already exists in the form of the Character Bazaar. Once you get your head around that fact, everything else in the dev blog makes perfect sense.
A character on the bazaar has a name (which cannot be changed), and a very specific set of skills, as well as a reputation.
A 500k sp item has none of those, and can be applied to any skill you like on your own character.
How are they similar? Or are you implying that buying seperate SP also changes your name and reputation and gives you random skills you never need?
If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all...
|
Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
2214
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 10:05:28 -
[475] - Quote
Reiisha wrote:Dr Conrad Murray wrote:Demica Diaz wrote:You are not alone. I see so much more benefits to old vets than newbros with this feature. As old player I welcome change as it will benefit me. If I was newbro and looking at that 5D 11m 45s skill training and << INSTANT UPGRATE! Insert credit card here! >> button. It would leave bitter taste about EVE: Like it or not, that button already exists in the form of the Character Bazaar. Once you get your head around that fact, everything else in the dev blog makes perfect sense. A character on the bazaar has a name (which cannot be changed), and a very specific set of skills, as well as a reputation. A 500k sp item has none of those, and can be applied to any skill you like on your own character. How are they similar? Or are you implying that buying seperate SP also changes your name and reputation and gives you random skills you never need?
He doesn't want to acknowledge this obvious issue because it doesn't suit his agenda. He's a Clown legion alt after all. |
Demica Diaz
SE-1
182
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 10:06:12 -
[476] - Quote
Dr Conrad Murray wrote:Demica Diaz wrote:You are not alone. I see so much more benefits to old vets than newbros with this feature. As old player I welcome change as it will benefit me. If I was newbro and looking at that 5D 11m 45s skill training and << INSTANT UPGRATE! Insert credit card here! >> button. It would leave bitter taste about EVE: Like it or not, that button already exists in the form of the Character Bazaar. Once you get your head around that fact, everything else in the dev blog makes perfect sense.
There is difference in buying someones character whos name you cannot change and might have history behind the name. Than pumping your very own first character you created for the first time ever in EVE with skill injectors. |
HandelsPharmi
Pharmi on CharBazaar
1796
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 10:07:32 -
[477] - Quote
From now on, you do not know if a few hours old char can light a covert cyno or not.
This makes the world more challenging... |
SoapyTits
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
27
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 10:07:32 -
[478] - Quote
Baracuda wrote:This whole is utterly bullshit. Pay-2-win sneakes into EVE.
Lol - Eve has always been about pay to win.
Ship bad - BUY better ship Modules bad - BUY better modules
Its funny old players dont like this change - they are concerned they dont have the edge over new players of Eve. Get some skillz, not sp but gaming skillz!!!
|
Big Lynx
4471
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 10:08:51 -
[479] - Quote
The sell-out of SPs. The inflation of a crucial feature and the fall of a bearing pillar of Eve Online. |
Morkan Damosty
The Scope Gallente Federation
4
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 10:12:11 -
[480] - Quote
Dr Conrad Murray wrote:Morkan Damosty wrote:If I was a former player with over 80 million SP, thatGÇÖs what I would do, extract my skills to reinject them elsewhere. Redistribution of my skills so. If I had over 80 Million SP, I would remove 500 K and re-inject possibly as little as 150 K. Why the hell would I do this ?
Yes you're right.
I didn't read the Dev post carrefully enough.
So no Skills redistribution. |
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 [16] 17 18 19 20 30 40 50 60 70 .. 74 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |