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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
Oreb Wing
Black Fox Marauders
148
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Posted - 2016.01.31 03:07:37 -
[1711] - Quote
The o7 eve show https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maVjcmXuMUw&index=1&list=PLQvKSs1k6DLOJpQmojYo4JsrqSfLnoN5r has many data charts and average SP per hour at the last 10 minutes of the video. Cool lab coat, bro. Please add as vanity item so i can pair it with the goggles.
There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom.
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Indahmawar Fazmarai
4602
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Posted - 2016.01.31 12:49:17 -
[1712] - Quote
Zozoll Neblyn wrote:Memphis Baas wrote:Alea wrote:[...]in my eyes that's pay to win[...]
The kick in the nuts would be that all that injected SP could very well be hidden from everybody that don't have access to the full API of that character. And, in my opinion it's not pay to win because: - You inject the SP and then ??? You haven't won anything yet. You've paid, but you have 0 kills, 0 wins. If that is your definition of "pay to win", then there probably doesn't exist any MMO out there that would qualify as "pay to win" in your opinion. Kalgeroth wrote:why do many people assume the cost of the injectors will be a simple AUR -> ISK conversion?
like players are going to give away 500k SP for free...
500k SP currently nets you about 250m in the character bazaar...if SP farmers want ISK and can't get it through extraction, they'll sell the character instead The price will probably be equal to what it would cost to run an SP farm without paying any subs, plus a small markup. So for the whole injector would be: (Price of 1 Plex) * ((Aur per Extractor)/3500 + 500,000 /(Number of SP possible to train per month)) + a small markup I don't actually know what the maximum number of SP you can train in a month is. I could refine the formula a bit if I knew that. At the price you get from that formula, an SP farmer would be making just slightly more ISK per injector than what they need in order to PLEX the farming account and buy the Skill Extractors. The price cannot possibly be higher than that for very long, because if it ever got higher than that, you can be quite certain a whole bunch of enterprising players will soon start SP farm accounts and grab that excess ISK from the market. The price can go lower, however. And it might be lower for quite a while at the start because of so many players wishing to trade in skills from training choices they've regretted, or gutting characters they don't want to play anymore (for whatever reason. Maybe a bad reputation, or a dumb sounding name.... etc..)
Maximum amount of SP per month? The usual estimate it's 1720 SP per hour, averaged for +5 implants and a optimum match of attributes and skills. Since skills are a mixed bag, some train faster, others slower... surely potential SP farmers are already developing a optimum skill path.
Anyway, for guessing purposes, monhtly SP = roughly 2,000,000 SP.
CCP Seagull: "EVE should be a universe where the infrastructure you build and fight over is as player driven and dynamic as the EVE market is now".
62% of players: "We're not interested. May we have Plan B, please?"
CCP Seagull: "What Plan B?"
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Oreb Wing
Black Fox Marauders
148
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Posted - 2016.01.31 16:42:03 -
[1713] - Quote
All skills train the same amount of SP per hour. They take longer only because of the multiplier that makes them worth more SP, not that they slow down the ticker at all. You should check out those graphs. I think your +5 and specialized attribute SP per hour is calculated too low. I have two +3's in with a full willpower/perception map and nearly everything I've trained is hulls lately. I haven't paid much attention to it though, but the graphs show a much higher rate for maximum sp per hour.
There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom.
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Indahmawar Fazmarai
4602
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Posted - 2016.01.31 16:52:55 -
[1714] - Quote
Oreb Wing wrote:All skills train the same amount of SP per hour. They take longer only because of the multiplier that makes them worth more SP, not that they slow down the ticker at all. You should check out those graphs. I think your +5 and specialized attribute SP per hour is calculated too low. I have two +3's in with a full willpower/perception map and nearly everything I've trained is hulls lately. I haven't paid much attention to it though, but the graphs show a much higher rate for maximum sp per hour.
And when you need skills that require other attributes you will obtain less points, as the amount of SP you collect depends on the skill requisites and your attributes. Thus the average.
CCP Seagull: "EVE should be a universe where the infrastructure you build and fight over is as player driven and dynamic as the EVE market is now".
62% of players: "We're not interested. May we have Plan B, please?"
CCP Seagull: "What Plan B?"
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Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
2148
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Posted - 2016.01.31 19:42:54 -
[1715] - Quote
A farming char will net you 2M skillpoints per month (2700 SP/h, perfect map, +5 implants).
I'm my own NPC alt.
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Vile Swan
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2016.01.31 20:23:02 -
[1716] - Quote
Will there be a limit to how many injectors you can use per month?
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Zozoll Neblyn
Ziggurat Forge
18
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Posted - 2016.01.31 20:43:19 -
[1717] - Quote
Tipa Riot wrote:A farming char will net you 2M skillpoints per month (2700 SP/h, perfect map, +5 implants).
In that case, the formula is:
(1 Plex) * ((Aur Cost of Extractor)/3500 + 500,000/2,000,000) + a small markup
Or : (1 Plex) * ((Aurcost of Extractor)/3500 + 0.25) + a small markup
Or: (1 Plex)* ((Aur Cost of Extractor) + 875)/ 3500 + a small markup
So, if an extractor costs 2625 Aurum, then full injector would cost 1 Plex (+ a small markup).
The viability of doing this will all come down to that Aurum price. I might opt not to bother with it at all, considering how much the instant SP will likely cost. It's likely that we're getting all upset over nothing.
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Josef Djugashvilis
3243
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Posted - 2016.01.31 21:07:19 -
[1718] - Quote
The logic that cash for skills does not equal 'pay to win' must also mean that the famed 'gold ammo' would also not be 'pay to win' as there is no 'win' in Eve Online.
Again, I would refer all to my example of two new players starting on day one.
Player one cannot afford to buy skills whereas player two can and does so funded by real life cash.
Are some folk seriously trying to argue that player two will not have a clear, broadly speaking, in-game advantage over player one funded by cash?
This is not a signature.
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Oreb Wing
Black Fox Marauders
149
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Posted - 2016.01.31 21:11:39 -
[1719] - Quote
It's not nothing bro. I've already broke a tree in my back yard over this with a kick of my righteous fury alone. Then crushed the fallen bark with mah bare hands. I have four more CCP! Don't make me do it! And how did you get such a high AUR price? Curious.
There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom.
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Algarion Getz
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
131
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Posted - 2016.01.31 21:19:22 -
[1720] - Quote
Alea wrote:My main gripe with SP trading as I understand it is that people with a greater expendable income can buy SP then will be able to out perform others who can not, given that both payers start off with similar amounts of SP, how is that no pay to win.? It's pay to out advance players with no extra income at the very least. According to the supporters, skill trading is not P2W because skill points dont matter in PvP. Absolutely everything depends on pilot skill. Having max skills for a Svipul at day 1 doesnt give you any advantage over all the other newbies in their badly skilled T1 frigs. |
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Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
2149
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Posted - 2016.01.31 21:29:42 -
[1721] - Quote
Zozoll Neblyn wrote:Tipa Riot wrote:A farming char will net you 2M skillpoints per month (2700 SP/h, perfect map, +5 implants). In that case, the formula is: (1 Plex) * ((Aur Cost of Extractor)/3500 + 500,000/2,000,000) + a small markup Or : (1 Plex) * ((Aurcost of Extractor)/3500 + 0.25) + a small markup Or: (1 Plex)* ((Aur Cost of Extractor) + 875)/ 3500 + a small markup So, if an extractor costs 2625 Aurum, then full injector would cost 1 Plex (+ a small markup). The viability of doing this will all come down to that Aurum price. I might opt not to bother with it at all, considering how much the instant SP will likely cost. It's likely that we're getting all upset over nothing. The maximum value of a 500k skillpack is 1/4 PLEX, on the market it will be traded lower as the figures from the bazaar show us, and also from the fact that training time per subscription is more efficient than PLEX. The extractor price on top needs to be balanced against the 2 PLEX fee for char transfers. Hence a fee much higher than the transfer fee per char/skillpack will make skill trading a niche market for snobs.
I'm my own NPC alt.
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Oreb Wing
Black Fox Marauders
149
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Posted - 2016.01.31 21:56:41 -
[1722] - Quote
Tipa Riot wrote:
The maximum value of a 500k skillpack is 1/4 PLEX, on the market it will be traded lower as the figures from the bazaar show us, and also from the fact that training time per subscription is more efficient than PLEX. The extractor price on top needs to be balanced against the 2 PLEX fee for char transfers. Hence a fee much higher than the transfer fee per char/skillpack will make skill trading a niche market for snobs.
The bazaar character transfer charge is arbitrary. I don't think the AUR injector price needs to show any consideration for what I think is pretty much a handling fee to keep transfers serious and make up the cost of time.
There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom.
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1888
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Posted - 2016.01.31 22:01:08 -
[1723] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:The logic that cash for skills does not equal 'pay to win' must also mean that the famed 'gold ammo' would also not be 'pay to win' as there is no 'win' in Eve Online.
Again, I would refer all to my example of two new players starting on day one.
Player one cannot afford to buy skills whereas player two can and does so funded by real life cash.
Are some folk seriously trying to argue that player two will not have a clear, broadly speaking, in-game advantage over player one funded by cash? I'm supposing this gold ammo is also produced through normal game means on every account and at best only has a cost to transfer between characters and can only be sold on the in game market but never directly by CCP? If so then no it's not P2W as everyone has access to it just by being able to play, CCP isn't even selling it in a way not attached to time, and there are available in game means to afford the portion made tradable without even thinking about reaching for a CC. And even in the case you are using a CC someone has to be making the isk and willing to give it to you for the system to work.
Basically the reason it's ok goes well beyond just the definition of winning, though that is a part of it. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
2035
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Posted - 2016.01.31 22:25:22 -
[1724] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:The logic that cash for skills does not equal 'pay to win' must also mean that the famed 'gold ammo' would also not be 'pay to win' as there is no 'win' in Eve Online.
Again, I would refer all to my example of two new players starting on day one.
Player one cannot afford to buy skills whereas player two can and does so funded by real life cash.
Are some folk seriously trying to argue that player two will not have a clear, broadly speaking, in-game advantage over player one funded by cash?
It is clearly 'Pay-for-advantage' rather than P2W on an individual level (all skills for any career top out at V's of course). Where it becomes P"W is that the player with more wealth can have all V's in many career's much more rapidly.
Worse than this is the impact on big/wealthy alliances. They can now provide SP-SRP for tech III cruisers, or SP packs to perfect PvE skills in return for rental charges. This can only be bad for smaller alliances and corporations.
This is of course ignoring the removal of the character creation side of the game. And where would the tipping point be for the ratio of all V's characters (per career) and new players before they cry 'Get rid of skills all together!' I can't help but think this will be the thin end of the monetization wedge but we'll see in time. |
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
217
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Posted - 2016.01.31 22:46:19 -
[1725] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:The logic that cash for skills does not equal 'pay to win' must also mean that the famed 'gold ammo' would also not be 'pay to win' as there is no 'win' in Eve Online.
Again, I would refer all to my example of two new players starting on day one.
Player one cannot afford to buy skills whereas player two can and does so funded by real life cash.
Are some folk seriously trying to argue that player two will not have a clear, broadly speaking, in-game advantage over player one funded by cash? I'm supposing this gold ammo is also produced through normal game means on every account and at best only has a cost to transfer between characters and can only be sold on the in game market but never directly by CCP (save the ability to produce as normal but in parallel)? If so then no it's not P2W as everyone has access to it just by being able to play, CCP isn't even selling it in a way not attached to time, and there are available in game means to afford the portion made tradable without even thinking about reaching for a CC. And even in the case you are using a CC someone has to be making the isk and willing to give it to you for the system to work. Basically the reason it's ok goes well beyond just the definition of winning, though that is a part of it.
By your logic, CCP could sell a 'gold ammo blueprint' for AUR, and that wouldn't be PTW because players actually make it.
Not buying the argument |
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
217
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Posted - 2016.01.31 22:49:07 -
[1726] - Quote
What is lacking, imo, is an ISK sink component to the extractors/injectors. That would actually be good for the overall economy, and I could actually support this new mechanic as being good for the game. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1888
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Posted - 2016.01.31 23:10:00 -
[1727] - Quote
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:
By your logic, CCP could sell a 'gold ammo blueprint' for AUR, and that wouldn't be PTW because players actually make it.
Not buying the argument
No, that would be P2W because it doesn't abide by the same rules. In that case you're still creating something exclusively sold by CCP rather than something which exclusively exists as a function of a paid account that no one has to exhert effort or pay anything additional to obtain for themselves.
How hard is this concept? If you have to pay CCP directly for the item it crosses a line, especially in the case that that transaction is the exclusive source, but neither of those are effectively true here since everyone who can play the game can also train.,
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Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
217
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Posted - 2016.01.31 23:34:58 -
[1728] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:
By your logic, CCP could sell a 'gold ammo blueprint' for AUR, and that wouldn't be PTW because players actually make it.
Not buying the argument
No, that would be P2W because it doesn't abide by the same rules. In that case you're still creating something exclusively sold by CCP rather than something which exclusively exists as a function of a paid account that no one has to exhert effort or pay anything additional to obtain for themselves. The logic I presented doesn't allow for that: the BPO/BPC isn't "produced (or obtained) through normal game means on every account and at best only has a cost to transfer between characters." SP on the other hand does abide by that since every paying account can produce it. How hard is this concept? If you have to pay CCP directly for the item or ability it crosses a line, especially in the case that that transaction is the exclusive source, but neither of those are effectively true here since everyone who can play the game can also train.
No it is precisely the same. The extractors are sold exclusively by CCP. Without them this whole thing doesn't function (just like the ammo blueprint)
edit. Put the extractors in the LP stores. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1888
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Posted - 2016.01.31 23:36:42 -
[1729] - Quote
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:No it is precisely the same. The extractors are sold exclusively by CCP. Without them this whole thing doesn't function (just like the ammo blueprint) No, it's not the same, anyone can gain SP both before and after the change through training, but how many could self produce gold ammo without buying the BPC from CCP? None. Difference clearly demonstrated. |
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
217
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Posted - 2016.01.31 23:39:39 -
[1730] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:No it is precisely the same. The extractors are sold exclusively by CCP. Without them this whole thing doesn't function (just like the ammo blueprint) No, it's not the same, anyone can gain SP both before and after the change through training, but how many could self produce gold ammo without buying the BPC from CCP? None. Difference clearly demonstrated.
But I can amass the materials required for the ammo print. Same thing. |
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1888
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Posted - 2016.01.31 23:42:34 -
[1731] - Quote
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:No it is precisely the same. The extractors are sold exclusively by CCP. Without them this whole thing doesn't function (just like the ammo blueprint) No, it's not the same, anyone can gain SP both before and after the change through training, but how many could self produce gold ammo without buying the BPC from CCP? None. Difference clearly demonstrated. But I can amass the materials required for the ammo print. Same thing. Skills you can use are the same as ammo that doesn't exist and as such can't be used?
What?
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Vile Swan
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2016.01.31 23:57:46 -
[1732] - Quote
I would like to repeat my question will there be a limit to how many skill injectors you can use at one time? |
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
217
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Posted - 2016.02.01 00:14:36 -
[1733] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: Skills you can use are the same as ammo that doesn't exist and as such can't be used?
What?
Edit: Also do you realize you've deviated from the initial claim of P2W being that "through the use of cash > PLEX > isk > sikll injectors one can buy an advantage and thus it's P2W"? You've now gone to "the ability to purchase the tool to decrease you're characters SP and create an item from it is P2W" if I'm understanding?
Skills are like the materials required for manufacturing an item in a blueprint The skill extractor is akin to the blueprint itself the skill injector is the item made
CCP exclusively sells the extractor for AUR. My analogy is that they could sell blueprints for gold ammo, and it would be the same.
And no, my opinion hasn't changed. But I accept that it is coming no matter what I think. It would just be more acceptable to make it less P2W
Mulcanis law will allow this new mechanic to be used to benefit the wealthy the most. |
Tiddle Jr
Brutor tribe Minmatar Republic
767
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Posted - 2016.02.01 00:14:50 -
[1734] - Quote
Vile Swan wrote:I would like to repeat my question will there be a limit to how many skill injectors you can use at one time?
There is onpy one limit mate, it's your wallet rl or ing no matter though. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1888
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Posted - 2016.02.01 00:30:08 -
[1735] - Quote
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:Skills are like the materials required for manufacturing an item in a blueprint The skill extractor is akin to the blueprint itself the skill injector is the item made
CCP exclusively sells the extractor for AUR. My analogy is that they could sell blueprints for gold ammo, and it would be the same.
And no, my opinion hasn't changed. But I accept that it is coming no matter what I think. It would just be more acceptable to make it less P2W No, you've got this backwards, skills are the end product. Skilled characters are the training end game, not extractors or injectors. Injectors are just SP which are currently removed from skills and rendered unused but transferrable.
Injectors are NOT advantageous in themselves like gold ammo, only skills are, but unlike your gold ammo scenario, skills have no "BPC" apart from the books themselves which are in game items. So if gold ammo was restricted to the same mechanism: I can produce it myself from nothing and need no BPC I can't get in game and can use it on the character I produced it, then it becomes analogous.
But your BPC doesn't meet those criteria since I need to specifically buy it from CCP (on top of requiring other materials which skills do not.), no matter how much you refuse to accept that simple, demonstrable logic.
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:Mulcanis law will allow this new mechanic to be used to benefit the wealthy the most. Ok, but that's not related to this or disputed. Also you misspelled his name. |
Zozoll Neblyn
Ziggurat Forge
18
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Posted - 2016.02.01 00:49:39 -
[1736] - Quote
Tipa Riot wrote:Zozoll Neblyn wrote:Tipa Riot wrote:A farming char will net you 2M skillpoints per month (2700 SP/h, perfect map, +5 implants). In that case, the formula is: (1 Plex) * ((Aur Cost of Extractor)/3500 + 500,000/2,000,000) + a small markup Or : (1 Plex) * ((Aurcost of Extractor)/3500 + 0.25) + a small markup Or: (1 Plex)* ((Aur Cost of Extractor) + 875)/ 3500 + a small markup So, if an extractor costs 2625 Aurum, then full injector would cost 1 Plex (+ a small markup). The viability of doing this will all come down to that Aurum price. I might opt not to bother with it at all, considering how much the instant SP will likely cost. It's likely that we're getting all upset over nothing. The maximum value of a 500k skillpack is 1/4 PLEX
Injectors will always cost more than 1/4 PLEX to make, though. (After all is taken into account, anyway.)
The minimum cost to make an injector os 1/4 PLEX + the Extractor.
Quote:, on the market it will be traded lower as the figures from the bazaar show us, and also from the fact that training time per subscription is more efficient than PLEX. The extractor price on top needs to be balanced against the 2 PLEX fee for char transfers. Hence a fee much higher than the transfer fee per char/skillpack will make skill trading a niche market for snobs.
The formula tells you the highest price it can reach. It can go lower, but it can't go higher, or not for very long anyway.
If it went higher, then players would buy plex, use farms to convert them into extractors, and sell them at a profit. If the profit of that ever gets very high, there will be a rush to exploit the available profit. Supply will rise until the market gets flooded to the point where the price drops back down.
If the price is lower than that, farming will be unprofitable. Most of the injectors that go on the market will be from players scrubbing off skills they don't want, or scrap heaping alts before they biomass them. After the first few months, the market would slow down quite a lot. Not a lot of players would be selling injectors.
The Aurum price is the key. If it's a high Aurum price, then you're looking at paying quite a lot for your SP. Straight subbing will always remain the most price effective way to increase your skills.
It only appeals to the impatient. |
Zozoll Neblyn
Ziggurat Forge
18
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Posted - 2016.02.01 01:17:11 -
[1737] - Quote
Tipa Riot wrote: The extractor price on top needs to be balanced against the 2 PLEX fee for char transfers. Hence a fee much higher than the transfer fee per char/skillpack will make skill trading a niche market for snobs.
Good point about the Char transfer cost. Scrap heaping characters by making Injectorss from them has to be more profitable than selling the character on the Bazaar, or there won't be any scrap heaping.
There are basically only three sources for Injectors:
- - SP farms (where the SP need to sell for 1/4 Plex at least)
- - Scrap heaping (where the SP need to sell for more than the price would have been in Character Bazaar, after paying the transfer fee.)
and
- - House Cleaning (which has no minimum price, because a player is simply selling unwanted SP).
If the price drops below the first two limits, then injectors will only be provided by housecleaning, and the supply would be very limited. (After the first few months.)
If the price rises above the SP farm limit, then supply will be effectively unlimited because an unlimited number of SP farm accounts can be created. |
Alea
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
192
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Posted - 2016.02.01 01:44:12 -
[1738] - Quote
Vile Swan wrote:I would like to repeat my question will there be a limit to how many skill injectors you can use at one time?
Will probably only be limited by how much money you want to throw at it, as it seems CCP needs the money, that's the only logical reason way this would be implemented.
Fellow Eve players please take note: In case you haven't yet noticed HTFU is going to be replaced with P(ay)TFU, that is all..
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Memphis Baas
1013
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Posted - 2016.02.01 02:23:08 -
[1739] - Quote
Vile Swan wrote:I would like to repeat my question will there be a limit to how many skill injectors you can use at one time?
No limit has been announced, and the video linked a few pages back shows that they definitely added functionality to use a whole stack with a single click. I don't know if there's a database constraint on how big a stack of injectors can be. |
Aquiileia
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
2
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Posted - 2016.02.01 03:06:13 -
[1740] - Quote
Please launch this soon so I can actually merge my characters and do what I actually wanna do in the game! Thanks! |
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