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Jonny Damordred
Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.01.28 09:30:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Doktor Quick stuff
I love how random people come into these threads and flame us. As an old teacher once said "Smacktalk just proves you are doing it right"
Love and Ganking, Jonny D. -----
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Archbishop
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.01.28 13:31:00 -
[32]
Quote: I repeat, we have never forced anyone to adopt our ideology and you will never find a case where we have done so.
I say again, fighting those who spread and support regressive ideologies is not forcing our ideology on those people.
The Cosmopolite
There is a big difference between "spread" and "support". In a way you are forcing people to adopt your ideology if you simply attack them for what they believe regardless of whether they knowing have followed a particular faith or ideology.
As an Amarrian I do not lie about why we enlighten the slaves and our desire to spread the true religion of God throughout the stars. Why do you thus seem to lie about the "effect" your actions have on those who have beliefs other than your own.
Spread: Actively or overtly sponsoring a specific set of beliefs.
Support: Simply having those beliefs yourself.
By attacking those who simply believe differently then you do simply because they believe differently seems to contradict what you say about "freedom". Instead it appears you're saying "you're only free as long as you believe what we believe". That in itself seems to be exactly what you "fight" against does it not?
Archbishop
PIE WEBSITE & FORUMS PIE INFORMATION CENTER |
Nekumi
Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.01.28 14:08:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Archbishop
Quote: I repeat, we have never forced anyone to adopt our ideology and you will never find a case where we have done so.
I say again, fighting those who spread and support regressive ideologies is not forcing our ideology on those people.
The Cosmopolite
There is a big difference between "spread" and "support". In a way you are forcing people to adopt your ideology if you simply attack them for what they believe regardless of whether they knowing have followed a particular faith or ideology.
As an Amarrian I do not lie about why we enlighten the slaves and our desire to spread the true religion of God throughout the stars. Why do you thus seem to lie about the "effect" your actions have on those who have beliefs other than your own.
Spread: Actively or overtly sponsoring a specific set of beliefs.
Support: Simply having those beliefs yourself.
By attacking those who simply believe differently then you do simply because they believe differently seems to contradict what you say about "freedom". Instead it appears you're saying "you're only free as long as you believe what we believe". That in itself seems to be exactly what you "fight" against does it not?
Archbishop
I'm so sick of this logical fallacy. If we fight against someone's belief how can we be for free will because the people who wish to crush free will should be allowed the free will to crush other people's free will.
Bullcrap.
Brand it however you like Archbishop. If you by your actions or your words seek to maintain the regressive status quo you will find yourself in our sights sooner or later.
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Jasmine Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.01.28 14:11:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Jasmine Constantine on 28/01/2007 14:08:37
Originally by: Archbishop By attacking those who simply believe differently then you do simply because they believe differently seems to contradict what you say about "freedom". Instead it appears you're saying "you're only free as long as you believe what we believe". That in itself seems to be exactly what you "fight" against does it not?
"seems" "appears" "seems". These questions are weak and useless Slaver. Don't presume to tell us what we believe. This opinion of yours has been conclusively debunked more times than I remember - do some research if you genuinely care. Our full statement of ideology is publicy available close at hand - read it, try to understand it and question what we say not what you "think" we say.
Quote: Star Faction on Freedom
From the first moment you took command of your starter frigate from the academy you broke free of the fiscal support/dependence structure of your native worlds. In an hour's work mining, or hunting or trading or working agents you most likely paid in full the investment on the ship. In a day, you gathered enough resource to upgrade your vessel and purchase better equipment and modules. In a week, you were considering industrial vessels and economic plans to put planetside corporations and business investment to utter shame. Some of us have taken this yet further and earned billions upon billions of ISK in resources and invested in new technology, in warfare, in vast industrial activities that sever our connections to the old world of administrative corruption and imperial memetics as significantly and irrevocably as the monofilament scalpel severs the umbilical betwixt child and mother at the beginning of waking consciousness.
For one who has tasted freedom there is no going back.
Star Fraction is recruiting
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Archbishop
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.01.28 14:19:00 -
[35]
Quote: I'm so sick of this logical fallacy. If we fight against someone's belief how can we be for free will because the people who wish to crush free will should be allowed the free will to crush other people's free will.
Bullcrap.
Brand it however you like Archbishop. If you by your actions or your words seek to maintain the regressive status quo you will find yourself in our sights sooner or later.
Well its an honest question.
1. You can be "FREE".
2. You can believe something other than we do.
3. Of course if you do we'll kill you.
4. Because we want you to be "FREE".
5. But only "FREE" as long as you believe what we do.
Yes I think I have it now. As an Amarrian I do not lie about my desire to enslave the entire Minmatar race. I have my religion and I know it is the true one and our Empire is the chosen. The facts to me are simple and as a man of faith I don't need to lie about them.
But what of other groups? You've attacked corporations previously who have NOT spread their beliefs to others. For example some corporations have simply protected areas from pirates. You've attacked them claiming "people who are defended by others become dependent on others and that is not freedom". Yet at the same time you paid ransom to pirates for your ship to "save the lives of a Star Fraction crew". That is a DIRECT CONTRADICTION in my eyes and the eyes of many others.
Then you sought to defend it claiming "they took our coin" and knew the risks. Well if you had to pay them they're dependent on you for support for themselves and money. If they're slaves to the "old system" of money they're not really "FREE" are they? Yet you perpetuate this system by your own admission. You support the "old system" of money which is perhaps the most repressive of all as money runs the universe.
How do you explain that?
Then again you called it a "logical fallacy". Then again you didn't answer any of the questions which is the pattern here. Now I'm really confused.
Archbishop
PIE WEBSITE & FORUMS PIE INFORMATION CENTER |
Archbishop
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.01.28 14:21:00 -
[36]
Quote: Star Fraction Ideology: From the first moment you took command of your starter frigate from the academy you broke free of the fiscal support/dependence structure of your native worlds.
Quote: Cosmopolite - SF Director: Our crews either share our ideals, willingly take our coin against the known risks or simply seek adventure in the inky deeps of space.
Which is it? If they're dependent on your "coin" they're not breaking free of the fiscal support and dependence structure are they?
So which is it?
Archbishop
PIE WEBSITE & FORUMS PIE INFORMATION CENTER |
Jasmine Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.01.28 14:24:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Archbishop That is a DIRECT CONTRADICTION in my eyes and the eyes of many others.
Sooner or later its going to sink into your skull that we don't care what you think Archbishop. You are a walking propaganda propaganda broadcast for the old order we want to shoot in the head. Your existance and personality does more to illustrate the point we are making than a thousand images - you deserve to die and so does anyone who has the slightest sympathy for your way of life and opinions.
Star Fraction is recruiting
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Jasmine Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.01.28 14:28:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Archbishop
Quote: Star Fraction Ideology: From the first moment you took command of your starter frigate from the academy you broke free of the fiscal support/dependence structure of your native worlds.
Quote: Cosmopolite - SF Director: Our crews either share our ideals, willingly take our coin against the known risks or simply seek adventure in the inky deeps of space.
Which is it? If they're dependent on your "coin" they're not breaking free of the fiscal support and dependence structure are they?
So which is it?
Archbishop
Come back when you are capable of making arguments that don't involve snipping four vital words from the end of the sentences you reference.
Star Fraction is recruiting
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Nekumi
Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.01.28 14:31:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Archbishop
Quote: I'm so sick of this logical fallacy. If we fight against someone's belief how can we be for free will because the people who wish to crush free will should be allowed the free will to crush other people's free will.
Bullcrap.
Brand it however you like Archbishop. If you by your actions or your words seek to maintain the regressive status quo you will find yourself in our sights sooner or later.
Well its an honest question.
1. You can be "FREE".
2. You can believe something other than we do.
3. Of course if you do we'll kill you.
4. Because we want you to be "FREE".
5. But only "FREE" as long as you believe what we do.
Yes I think I have it now. As an Amarrian I do not lie about my desire to enslave the entire Minmatar race. I have my religion and I know it is the true one and our Empire is the chosen. The facts to me are simple and as a man of faith I don't need to lie about them.
But what of other groups? You've attacked corporations previously who have NOT spread their beliefs to others. For example some corporations have simply protected areas from pirates. You've attacked them claiming "people who are defended by others become dependent on others and that is not freedom". Yet at the same time you paid ransom to pirates for your ship to "save the lives of a Star Fraction crew". That is a DIRECT CONTRADICTION in my eyes and the eyes of many others.
Then you sought to defend it claiming "they took our coin" and knew the risks. Well if you had to pay them they're dependent on you for support for themselves and money. If they're slaves to the "old system" of money they're not really "FREE" are they? Yet you perpetuate this system by your own admission. You support the "old system" of money which is perhaps the most repressive of all as money runs the universe.
How do you explain that?
Then again you called it a "logical fallacy". Then again you didn't answer any of the questions which is the pattern here. Now I'm really confused.
Archbishop
It's not an honest question. There are only two types of people we kill, those who fire on us and those who counter to freedom itself. This has been answered before but you ignore the responses and repeat the question.
You talk about corporations protecting areas from pirates. They are not prosletyzing no but they are spreading regressive attitudes of a tiered society where there are weak people and there are strong and the weak must defend the strong. This has been answered before but you ignore the response and repeat the question.
Now we're back onto the crew thing again, which has also been answered before. If you're just going to repeat questions not only other people have asked but you yourself have asked before what is the point in answering you. I mean seriously. Read our answers, if you seek a genuine clarification for something any one of us has said then ask but this continual repetition Archbishop worries me, perhaps you should see a mental health professional.
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Archbishop
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.01.28 14:34:00 -
[40]
Quote: Sooner or later its going to sink into your skull that we don't care what you think Archbishop. You are a walking propaganda propaganda broadcast for the old order we want to shoot in the head. Your existance and personality does more to illustrate the point we are making than a thousand images - you deserve to die and so does anyone who has the slightest sympathy for your way of life and opinions.
Did I say I cared about what you think? I'm just pointing out some contradictions and hypocrisy in your pattern of activities. As we've seen others here not of my beliefs also are posting the same questions. That leaves you with two choices.
1. Explain the contradictions and hypocrisy and prove Archbishop is wrong (this should be your choice I would think) so everyone can see how wrong Archbishop is and condemn him.
2. Keep calling people names, threatening them, insulting them, not answering questions, in other words the "norm".
You don't care about what I think and thats fine. You don't care about the community of pod pilots in general apparently as you support pirates and spout beliefs but refuse to even follow them in some cases (when it could cost you a Capital Ship). Then you simply insult people who ask you "WHY".
If you don't care about my opinion why do you spend so much time refuting it? If I'm an eccentric old Amarrian why should you care? After all the general pod pilot community will be able to recognize a senile old codger like myself right? They'll recognize the nobility in what you do and simply ignore me.
So don't respond to my ramblings and prove what you say that you really don't care. Can you do this? After all as you've said all the answers have been supplied elsewhere. Anyone reading this will be able to do research and see the "Star Fraction Truth"..... right?
So there are no more questions for anyone and any questions asked will just be ignored by you........ right? After all you've answered them all.
Archbishop
PIE WEBSITE & FORUMS PIE INFORMATION CENTER |
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Nekumi
Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.01.28 14:37:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Archbishop
Quote: Sooner or later its going to sink into your skull that we don't care what you think Archbishop. You are a walking propaganda propaganda broadcast for the old order we want to shoot in the head. Your existance and personality does more to illustrate the point we are making than a thousand images - you deserve to die and so does anyone who has the slightest sympathy for your way of life and opinions.
Did I say I cared about what you think? I'm just pointing out some contradictions and hypocrisy in your pattern of activities. As we've seen others here not of my beliefs also are posting the same questions. That leaves you with two choices.
1. Explain the contradictions and hypocrisy and prove Archbishop is wrong (this should be your choice I would think) so everyone can see how wrong Archbishop is and condemn him.
2. Keep calling people names, threatening them, insulting them, not answering questions, in other words the "norm".
You don't care about what I think and thats fine. You don't care about the community of pod pilots in general apparently as you support pirates and spout beliefs but refuse to even follow them in some cases (when it could cost you a Capital Ship). Then you simply insult people who ask you "WHY".
If you don't care about my opinion why do you spend so much time refuting it? If I'm an eccentric old Amarrian why should you care? After all the general pod pilot community will be able to recognize a senile old codger like myself right? They'll recognize the nobility in what you do and simply ignore me.
So don't respond to my ramblings and prove what you say that you really don't care. Can you do this? After all as you've said all the answers have been supplied elsewhere. Anyone reading this will be able to do research and see the "Star Fraction Truth"..... right?
So there are no more questions for anyone and any questions asked will just be ignored by you........ right? After all you've answered them all.
Archbishop
The day you can actually validate one of your claims of hypocrisy or contradiction I will leave the Star Fraction.
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Jasmine Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.01.28 14:44:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Jasmine Constantine on 28/01/2007 14:41:53
Originally by: Archbishop If you don't care about my opinion why do you spend so much time refuting it?
Because your fear amuses me. I see you as a cowl-clad cucaracha scuttling away from the light and trying to get back under your rock faster than the other natonalist vermin. Every time you post some inaccurate "critique" or ill-founded "attack" on the Star Fraction ideology I just see an image of you on your knees begging us to shoot someone else first.
Its pathetic. But you and your organisation do need to die.
Star Fraction is recruiting
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Archbishop
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.01.28 14:52:00 -
[43]
Quote: The day you can actually validate one of your claims of hypocrisy or contradiction I will leave the Star Fraction.
Very well. EXAMPLE #1 1. You claim those who defend others by killing pirates in a system are forcing those people to become dependent on others. You claim that if they are forced to defend themselves they will become free.
2. You pay pirates 1b isk ransom to DEFEND A STAR FRACTION CREW thus forcing their dependence ON YOU. You've thus contradicted your own ideology.
EXAMPLE #2 1. Your own statement claims that pilots break free of financial dependence on the state when they climb into their pods and are thus "free".
2. You admit paying people to serve on your ships thus denying them "freedom" and forcing their financial dependence on you.
EXAMPLE #3 1. You claim you attack others to free them from repressive ideologies.
2. You fail to acknowledge these people may have made a conscious decision to follow said ideology.
3. You claim those who's ideology involves oppressing others isnt acceptable.
4. But you've attacked those who are NOT spreading an ideology.
5. You've admitted attacking even those who BELIEVE a certain ideology (who have made a choice to believe it).
Those are the contradictions and hypocritical actions. Please explain why they are NOT if you can. If not just do the usual (tell me I have a little mind, threaten me with war and say you don't care about my opinion).
Archbishop
PIE WEBSITE & FORUMS PIE INFORMATION CENTER |
Jasmine Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.01.28 14:56:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Archbishop
Quote: The day you can actually validate one of your claims of hypocrisy or contradiction I will leave the Star Fraction.
Very well. EXAMPLE #1 1. You claim those who defend others by killing pirates in a system are forcing those people to become dependent on others. You claim that if they are forced to defend themselves they will become free.
2. You pay pirates 1b isk ransom to DEFEND A STAR FRACTION CREW thus forcing their dependence ON YOU. You've thus contradicted your own ideology.
EXAMPLE #2 1. Your own statement claims that pilots break free of financial dependence on the state when they climb into their pods and are thus "free".
2. You admit paying people to serve on your ships thus denying them "freedom" and forcing their financial dependence on you.
EXAMPLE #3 1. You claim you attack others to free them from repressive ideologies.
2. You fail to acknowledge these people may have made a conscious decision to follow said ideology.
3. You claim those who's ideology involves oppressing others isnt acceptable.
4. But you've attacked those who are NOT spreading an ideology.
5. You've admitted attacking even those who BELIEVE a certain ideology (who have made a choice to believe it).
Those are the contradictions and hypocritical actions. Please explain why they are NOT if you can. If not just do the usual (tell me I have a little mind, threaten me with war and say you don't care about my opinion).
Archbishop
Will you leave PIE and apologise for your life as a Slaver when my alliance mates tear this post to shreads and obliterate your foolish arguments Archbishop?
Star Fraction is recruiting
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Nekumi
Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.01.28 14:56:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Archbishop
Quote: The day you can actually validate one of your claims of hypocrisy or contradiction I will leave the Star Fraction.
Very well. EXAMPLE #1 1. You claim those who defend others by killing pirates in a system are forcing those people to become dependent on others. You claim that if they are forced to defend themselves they will become free.
2. You pay pirates 1b isk ransom to DEFEND A STAR FRACTION CREW thus forcing their dependence ON YOU. You've thus contradicted your own ideology.
EXAMPLE #2 1. Your own statement claims that pilots break free of financial dependence on the state when they climb into their pods and are thus "free".
2. You admit paying people to serve on your ships thus denying them "freedom" and forcing their financial dependence on you.
EXAMPLE #3 1. You claim you attack others to free them from repressive ideologies.
2. You fail to acknowledge these people may have made a conscious decision to follow said ideology.
3. You claim those who's ideology involves oppressing others isnt acceptable.
4. But you've attacked those who are NOT spreading an ideology.
5. You've admitted attacking even those who BELIEVE a certain ideology (who have made a choice to believe it).
Those are the contradictions and hypocritical actions. Please explain why they are NOT if you can. If not just do the usual (tell me I have a little mind, threaten me with war and say you don't care about my opinion).
Archbishop
Well looks like I better quit the corporation then. Oh wait every single thing you've posted here has been asked and answered several times over.
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Archbishop
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.01.28 15:10:00 -
[46]
Quote: Will you leave PIE and apologise for your life as a Slaver when my alliance mates tear this post to shreads and obliterate your foolish arguments Archbishop?
No but then again Im not denying I'm a slaver so I dont need to. You're denying these are true and I am offering you the chance to prove me wrong in public. Please do.
Quote: "Well looks like I better quit the corporation then. Oh wait every single thing you've posted here has been asked and answered several times over."
Then post the links. You've tried to JUSTIFY your actions but that in fact is where these became contradictions. You've tried to justify attacking those who defend others by saying "those who are defended are dependent". That is YOUR position. Yet later you said "we had to SAVE THE STAR FRACTION crew".
You didn't answer it at all. I am hoping you'll take the chance to prove me wrong. Post a link to the exact post, copy and paste it, or post it again. ANYTHING. All you need to do is that. I'd think you'd be jumping at this chance to get the old Amarrian slaver.
Archbishop
PIE WEBSITE & FORUMS PIE INFORMATION CENTER |
Jasmine Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.01.28 15:10:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Jasmine Constantine on 28/01/2007 15:08:11
Quote: No but then again Im not denying I'm a slaver so I dont need to. You're denying these are true and I am offering you the chance to prove me wrong in public. Please do.
I've proved you wrong in public so many times that reward no longer has currency. Tell me really - what do I get if I humiliate your "logic" one more time?
Star Fraction is recruiting
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Archbishop
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.01.28 15:11:00 -
[48]
Either way this dead horse has been beaten enough. Ive posted what I believe are the issues at hand. You can take this opportunity and post right below them the evidence that will prove me wrong. Or you can make vague posts "its been answered already". I'd think you'd take the former and really show the pod-pilot community what a crazy old codger I am.
Archbishop
PIE WEBSITE & FORUMS PIE INFORMATION CENTER |
Jasmine Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.01.28 15:15:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Jasmine Constantine on 28/01/2007 15:12:52
Originally by: Archbishop
Either way this dead horse has been beaten enough. Ive posted what I believe are the issues at hand. You can take this opportunity and post right below them the evidence that will prove me wrong. Or you can make vague posts "its been answered already". I'd think you'd take the former and really show the pod-pilot community what a crazy old codger I am. Archbishop
The pod-pilot community already knows you are a terrified old reactionary puppet desperately trying to get Star Fraction to look elsewhere for our next nationalist scalp Archbishop. What do we gain from rehashing this argument for the 1001st time and annhilating your logical inconstancies once again? Are you paying us to teach you how to think? Is the contract for the re-education of brain-fried Amarri implant-abusers?
This is a serious question. What do we get in exchange for ripping your post to pieces one more time? You have to make this worth our time surely?
Star Fraction is recruiting
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Nekumi
Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.01.28 15:26:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Nekumi on 28/01/2007 15:29:28 Edited by: Nekumi on 28/01/2007 15:27:25 Edited by: Nekumi on 28/01/2007 15:25:32
Originally by: Archbishop
Quote: The day you can actually validate one of your claims of hypocrisy or contradiction I will leave the Star Fraction.
Very well. EXAMPLE #1 1. You claim those who defend others by killing pirates in a system are forcing those people to become dependent on others. You claim that if they are forced to defend themselves they will become free.
2. You pay pirates 1b isk ransom to DEFEND A STAR FRACTION CREW thus forcing their dependence ON YOU. You've thus contradicted your own ideology.
EXAMPLE #2 1. Your own statement claims that pilots break free of financial dependence on the state when they climb into their pods and are thus "free".
2. You admit paying people to serve on your ships thus denying them "freedom" and forcing their financial dependence on you.
EXAMPLE #3 1. You claim you attack others to free them from repressive ideologies.
2. You fail to acknowledge these people may have made a conscious decision to follow said ideology.
3. You claim those who's ideology involves oppressing others isnt acceptable.
4. But you've attacked those who are NOT spreading an ideology.
5. You've admitted attacking even those who BELIEVE a certain ideology (who have made a choice to believe it).
Those are the contradictions and hypocritical actions. Please explain why they are NOT if you can. If not just do the usual (tell me I have a little mind, threaten me with war and say you don't care about my opinion).
Archbishop
Example #1
Example #2
Example #3
Example #3
By the way, these are just examples from the most recent threads. If you want to go back and do some of your own legwork, I'm sure if you just check your own post history you'll see a lot more examples.
Edited to clean it up and make it easier to go to the links for the lazy.
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Archbishop
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.01.28 16:55:00 -
[51]
Quote:
This is a serious question. What do we get in exchange for ripping your post to pieces one more time? You have to make this worth our time surely?
Why the satisfaction of proving me wrong in front of so many people.
Quote: "Because your fear amuses me. I see you as a cowl-clad cucaracha scuttling away from the light and trying to get back under your rock faster than the other natonalist vermin. Every time you post some inaccurate "critique" or ill-founded "attack" on the Star Fraction ideology I just see an image of you on your knees begging us to shoot someone else first.
Its pathetic. But you and your organisation do need to die.
If thats how you feel you know where we are. You'll do it either way so who cares? We're Amarrians after all and we know where we stand.
Quote: I've proved you wrong in public so many times that reward no longer has currency. Tell me really - what do I get if I humiliate your "logic" one more time?
Actually you havent. Ive invited you to post links to the observations I have made. Instead you've said 'what do we get out of it' and 'you're just afraid'. In other words you fail to answer the questions and instead seek to divert attention elsewhere with claims totally unrelated to the issue at hand.
Answer the questions. Simple.
Quote: The pod-pilot community already knows you are a terrified old reactionary puppet desperately trying to get Star Fraction to look elsewhere for our next nationalist scalp Archbishop.
I dont care who you attack next and I'm sure you'll eventually come after my corporation. As a war mongering pirate loving alliance its what you do. You mask your real actions (a lust for blood) with long bravado filled speeches about how noble you are while you love up pirates in gate camps, dont shoot on those who deny freedom to others by piracy, and generally confuse people with page after page of rhetoric.
Likewise as I recall you've claimed elsewhere that all your wars are against "worthy opponents" not the weak. Yet you've called us weak. So which is it? Again confusing mixed messages from the Star Fraction. Where does the truth lay? Its hard to tell when you say different things all the time.
But Nekumi has attempted to address my questions with some links. (Thanks). I will address those now.
EXAMPLE #1 You posted a link to Cosmos post about your crew taking wages. Why are they taking wages? To support themselves? In effect doesnt that then mean they are DEPENDENT on you to survive and support themselves? Using your theories all should never earn wages from others but merely subsist on their own works?
EXAMPLE #2 You posted a link to your comment "since when does earning a wage make you dependent". Well what is done with that wage? And is someone beholden to isk actually "free" as you say or are they indeed dependent?
EXAMPLE #3 You posted a link to Cosmo talking about how forcing others to stop spreading ideologies is not the same thing as forcing them to accept your ideology. But didnt someone from Star Fraction say earlier you attack those who spread AND SUPPORT an ideology? If they merely support an ideology and live under it they're attackable? Isnt that in effect forcing ideology on others? It seems to me it is.
I'm just asking for clarification here. You admit fighting those who STOP FREEDOM yet you sit next to pirates at gate camps who by their very nature are STOPPING FREEDOM for others.
Which is it?
You kill those who merely SUPPORT an ideology which in effect means you stop them from believing their own and accepting yours. Yet you say you dont do this?
Which is it?
You believe the weak shouldnt be defended yet you pay to save a crew (not pay wages but pay to SAVE THEM which is DEFENDING.... isnt it?).
Which is it?
Simple questions.
Archbishop
PIE WEBSITE & FORUMS PIE INFORMATION CENTER |
Archbishop
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.01.28 17:04:00 -
[52]
Quote: You talk about corporations protecting areas from pirates. They are not prosletyzing no but they are spreading regressive attitudes of a tiered society where there are weak people and there are strong and the weak must defend the strong. This has been answered before but you ignore the response and repeat the question.
Now we're back onto the crew thing again, which has also been answered before. If you're just going to repeat questions not only other people have asked but you yourself have asked before what is the point in answering you. I mean seriously. Read our answers, if you seek a genuine clarification for something any one of us has said then ask but this continual repetition Archbishop worries me, perhaps you should see a mental health professional.
I will concede the point on "payment" to you for wages it is a gray area. I do believe in spirit people who are dependent on wages to survive are not "free" as they obey their employers. But I will agree this is an area we can disagree on and move on.
One thing though is your concept that people are neither weak or strong and that the strong must not defend the weak (you had a typo above saying weak defends the strong but I know what you mean). With the crew we talked about "wages" and I will acknowledge that is a gray area.
But what about "saving the crew" from death? First as cloned individuals there is nothing to save them from as theyre immortal. Second the concept of "saving" someone implies they are weak and in need of saving. You say there are no weak people. If there are no weak people why did you need to save them?
You see it is very confusing how you can say one thing in one instance yet do another in another. Either there are no weak people and you save NO ONE or you acknowledge there are weak people and you SAVE ONE. You can't have it both ways.
Which is it?
Archbishop
PIE WEBSITE & FORUMS PIE INFORMATION CENTER |
Nekumi
Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.01.28 17:24:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Archbishop
EXAMPLE #1 You posted a link to Cosmos post about your crew taking wages. Why are they taking wages? To support themselves? In effect doesnt that then mean they are DEPENDENT on you to survive and support themselves? Using your theories all should never earn wages from others but merely subsist on their own works?
They are free to take a wage from anyone they desire, therefore there is no dependence on anything we do. It is their choice to crew on our ships.
Look at what we've said about commerce. If you think we are claiming that people shouldn't participate in economics you're wrong and that has no bearing on this debate.
Originally by: Archbishop EXAMPLE #2 You posted a link to your comment "since when does earning a wage make you dependent". Well what is done with that wage? And is someone beholden to isk actually "free" as you say or are they indeed dependent?
I addressed this above. They are not dependent on us until we are the only people in the galaxy willing to pay people to fly with us and even then they are free to seek alternative ways to get what they need.
Originally by: Archbishop EXAMPLE #3 You posted a link to Cosmo talking about how forcing others to stop spreading ideologies is not the same thing as forcing them to accept your ideology. But didnt someone from Star Fraction say earlier you attack those who spread AND SUPPORT an ideology? If they merely support an ideology and live under it they're attackable? Isnt that in effect forcing ideology on others? It seems to me it is.
Removing something without replacing it is not the same no.
Originally by: Archbishop I'm just asking for clarification here. You admit fighting those who STOP FREEDOM yet you sit next to pirates at gate camps who by their very nature are STOPPING FREEDOM for others.
Which is it?
Our rules of engagement have been explained on numerous occasions and this very topic has been explained with regard to propping up a two-tiered system of protector/charge, slave/master. Do you really need me to link this for you?
Originally by: Archbishop You kill those who merely SUPPORT an ideology which in effect means you stop them from believing their own and accepting yours. Yet you say you dont do this?
Which is it?
For the last time, we do not force people to adopt our ideology. We prevent them from enforcing/spreading theirs.
Originally by: Archbishop You believe the weak shouldnt be defended yet you pay to save a crew (not pay wages but pay to SAVE THEM which is DEFENDING.... isnt it?).
Which is it?
Simple questions.
Archbishop
The crews on each of our ships are ready to die if it comes down to it, but to throw life away when it is unnecessary, is pointless. That is not defending the weak, what it is, is not throwing something away that you don't need to.
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Archbishop
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.01.28 17:36:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Archbishop on 28/01/2007 17:33:14
Quote: Our rules of engagement have been explained on numerous occasions and this very topic has been explained with regard to propping up a two-tiered system of protector/charge, slave/master. Do you really need me to link this for you?
You attack those who spread old ideologies and nationalistic belief systems. You attack those who SUPPORT or BELIEVE in those systems as well even if they make a conscious decision to have those beliefs and are NOT spreading them themselves.
Quote: "For the last time, we do not force people to adopt our ideology. We prevent them from enforcing/spreading theirs."
As I said your group has said they attack those who spread and SUPPORT. I guess this goes to the definition of "support". What is your definition of "support"? Support to me means believing in or supporting a system by choice. I believe in God and I support my religion. Even if I left PIE, never held slaves again, became a goodwill ambassador for Amarr, I would still BELIEVE in God and thus support God by my beliefs.
How do you define "support"?
Quote: "The crews on each of our ships are ready to die if it comes down to it, but to throw life away when it is unnecessary, is pointless. That is not defending the weak, what it is, is not throwing something away that you don't need to."
An interesting viewpoint but I believe it is flawed for the following reasons.
1. They dont die because they're immortal posthumanist pod-pilots by your own description. The gift of cloning has given them this thus it is throwing away nothing.
2. You said throwing life away is "unnecessary"? What could be more necessary then fighting pirates who deny freedom to others. You have stated you attack those who fire on you first thus random pirates who dont engage you mean nothing to you. Yet THESE pirates DID attack you. You did not attack them instead you PAID THEM thus allowing them the financial means to victimize more people and the financial means to DENY FREEDOM to more people.
You see where that appears on its face to be contradictory. I assume you've wardec'd this pirate corp now and are actively engaging them in combat so I anxiously await the war reports on that conflict and I will wish you luck on it. Attacking pirates and those who prey on the innocent is indeed a noble calling.
Archbishop
PIE WEBSITE & FORUMS PIE INFORMATION CENTER |
Jasmine Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.01.28 17:42:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Jasmine Constantine on 28/01/2007 17:39:40
Originally by: Archbishop Actually you havent. Ive invited you to post links to the observations I have made. Instead you've said 'what do we get out of it' and 'you're just afraid'. In other words you fail to answer the questions and instead seek to divert attention elsewhere with claims totally unrelated to the issue at hand.
Actually we all have, on many many occasions fully and completely and we have proven you completely wrong at every turn. The thing is it doesn't matter what we say to you Archbishop - its absolutely irrelevent in fact. You aren't posting here to gain knowledge or to engage in dialogue or whatever else you might claim - you are posting here to create random noise to blur the signal. You will snare the unwary into replying substantively and then quarrel over the merest terminology, you'll invent "facts" to suit your fancy, you'll make subtle barbs and retreat, you'll smear false accusatons and unsupported inaccuracies and retreat again. You are a pure Summit troll who never brings anything of your own to the table and just wishes to confuse the weak minded.
One by one people will realise this of course (as I'm sure Nekumi will now having chosen to refute every point you raised and still find no end to your words) And perhaps in the future we'll all take a little more care in posting you a simple "do your research" measure rather than trying to engage in wasteful and pointless "debate" with your straw-men fantasies and falsehoods. You have never yet proven a single accusation of "hypocrisy" against us Archbishop. You never will. The only people who give you the slightest credence are fools and sycophants. At the last thats reason enough to conclude your intervention once again is a joke and must occlude a deeper motive - in this case a desperate attempt to divert us from the war against your organisation that everybody must know is fast approaching.
Beg for allies as you wish Amarrian dog. You'll need them.
Star Fraction is recruiting
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Nekumi
Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.01.28 17:51:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Archbishop
You attack those who spread old ideologies and nationalistic belief systems. You attack those who SUPPORT or BELIEVE in those systems as well even if they make a conscious decision to have those beliefs and are NOT spreading them themselves.
By supporting/believing in those systems you are spreading those systems.
Originally by: Archbishop As I said your group has said they attack those who spread and SUPPORT. I guess this goes to the definition of "support". What is your definition of "support"? Support to me means believing in or supporting a system by choice. I believe in God and I support my religion. Even if I left PIE, never held slaves again, became a goodwill ambassador for Amarr, I would still BELIEVE in God and thus support God by my beliefs.
How do you define "support"?
This has been addressed above.
Originally by: Archbishop An interesting viewpoint but I believe it is flawed for the following reasons.
1. They dont die because they're immortal posthumanist pod-pilots by your own description. The gift of cloning has given them this thus it is throwing away nothing.
2. You said throwing life away is "unnecessary"? What could be more necessary then fighting pirates who deny freedom to others. You have stated you attack those who fire on you first thus random pirates who dont engage you mean nothing to you. Yet THESE pirates DID attack you. You did not attack them instead you PAID THEM thus allowing them the financial means to victimize more people and the financial means to DENY FREEDOM to more people.
You see where that appears on its face to be contradictory. I assume you've wardec'd this pirate corp now and are actively engaging them in combat so I anxiously await the war reports on that conflict and I will wish you luck on it. Attacking pirates and those who prey on the innocent is indeed a noble calling.
Archbishop
On point 1, I don't think we've ever claimed to use a crew consisting completely of pod pilots. As you well know, baseline humans make up the majority crew of any ship.
On point 2, the battle was lost. Tatsue knew this, to throw away her ship and crew would have been utterly pointless. She found an alternative and every man and woman aboard her ship lives to fight another day.
The pirate corp has been set to negative standings as per our normal rules of engagement and if we meet them in space again we will engage them. We have not declared war on them. I am confused as to what you are trying to ask here? Do you think we are so attention deficit as to drop what we are currently doing to pursue every regressive dog who takes a pot shot at us? They will be dealt with in the fullness of time.
Your assumptions on what the pirates will do with the isk they received are just that and have no real bearing on this matter.
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Tempus Iskander
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.01.28 18:03:00 -
[57]
This is getting to be rediculous. I think the Fraction people have the patience of saints tbh. Every thread on this page has all this PIE freaks asking "questions" that are really thinly-veiled stabs. Nobody else answers these "questions". And why is anybody listening to a guy who admits he's a slaver and religious nut anyhow? I can't tell the difference in threads anymore
Even the war posts are full of this Slaver rubbish now! (and they aren't even fighting them!
If you guys don't like the Star Fraction why don't you declare on them and do something rather than chewing the fat and flapping your gums you big girls blouses
I used to like reading the Amarr and Mini stuff in the day but you Amarrians today are like whining carebears more than a master race.
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Archbishop
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.01.28 18:18:00 -
[58]
Quote: Actually we all have, on many many occasions fully and completely and we have proven you completely wrong at every turn. The thing is it doesn't matter what we say to you Archbishop - its absolutely irrelevent in fact. You aren't posting here to gain knowledge or to engage in dialogue or whatever else you might claim - you are posting here to create random noise to blur the signal. You will snare the unwary into replying substantively and then quarrel over the merest terminology, you'll invent "facts" to suit your fancy, you'll make subtle barbs and retreat, you'll smear false accusatons and unsupported inaccuracies and retreat again. You are a pure Summit troll who never brings anything of your own to the table and just wishes to confuse the weak minded.
Yes of course Jasmine you're right and everyone else here asking "what" is wrong. What is a "summit troll"? This sounds like "OOC" I see sometimes. It makes no sense to me. What is "unwary" about asking some simple questions? I'm not posting 25 paragraph explanations of ideology that is YOUR DEPARTMENT. Then when people ask about it you insult, threaten or just ignore them.
But of course your right.... you always are.
Quote: "By supporting/believing in those systems you are spreading those systems."
But if I choose to believe in something isnt that an example of me becoming a "free individual" and making an informed choice? You've basically just admitted that those who believe things other than what you believe are targets and thus you feel justified in killing us all to "save us" from our own decisions? And you criticize us Amarr for saving the Minmatar from themselves. Actually you sound alot like an Amarrian slaver.
Quote: "On point 1, I don't think we've ever claimed to use a crew consisting completely of pod pilots. As you well know, baseline humans make up the majority crew of any ship.
On point 2, the battle was lost. Tatsue knew this, to throw away her ship and crew would have been utterly pointless. She found an alternative and every man and woman aboard her ship lives to fight another day.
The pirate corp has been set to negative standings as per our normal rules of engagement and if we meet them in space again we will engage them. We have not declared war on them. I am confused as to what you are trying to ask here? Do you think we are so attention deficit as to drop what we are currently doing to pursue every regressive dog who takes a pot shot at us? They will be dealt with in the fullness of time.
Your assumptions on what the pirates will do with the isk they received are just that and have no real bearing on this matter."
Oh so you associate with non-post-humanist pilots who do NOT agree with your philosophy? Why aren't you attacking them? Also what is a "baseline human"? This sounds like someone who is WEAK? But you said there are no weak people and you dont differentiate. Shouldnt they have been allowed to defend themselves rather then become dependent on your captains payoff?
As for declaring war you have no issue declaring war on people who are minding their own business and NOT spreading an ideology simply because they believe something. I would thus expect you would be willing to declare war on someone who actually took shots at you in battle. If not I understand the reluctance to engage a multiple-front war at once its a challenge I know. So I can wait until your current offensive is over to see that next war with these pirates who stole the freedom of your own members take flight. I will wish you well on it when the time comes.
Thank you Nekumi for answering my questions. We will agree to disagree and I probably will never understand exactly what the Star Fraction stands for. It is an enigma to be sure to many in the pilot community. Either way I appreciate your honesty, politeness and candor.
Archbishop
PIE WEBSITE & FORUMS PIE INFORMATION CENTER |
Jasmine Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.01.28 18:22:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Archbishop Yes of course Jasmine you're right and everyone else here asking "what" is wrong.
No its mostly just you and your PIE comrades.
Quote: What is a "summit troll"?
A person who posts not in an attempt to present information or request it but simply to hijack and muddy the waters and ruin discussion. In other words precisely what you have been doing today. Everyone knows we are hostile. Everyone knows we're going to be fighting soon. You are fooling no-one with these silly question-threads and posts.
Star Fraction is recruiting
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Archbishop
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.01.28 18:34:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Archbishop on 28/01/2007 18:30:58
Quote: A person who posts not in an attempt to present information or request it but simply to hijack and muddy the waters and ruin discussion. In other words precisely what you have been doing today. Everyone knows we are hostile. Everyone knows we're going to be fighting soon. You are fooling no-one with these silly question-threads and posts.
Of course Jasmine. Except I've noticed quite a few people here other then PIE asking questions the last few weeks. If you'd like I'll make a list of names and corps and post them here.
Quote: This is getting to be rediculous. I think the Fraction people have the patience of saints tbh. Every thread on this page has all this PIE freaks asking "questions" that are really thinly-veiled stabs. Nobody else answers these "questions". And why is anybody listening to a guy who admits he's a slaver and religious nut anyhow? I can't tell the difference in threads anymore Evil or Very Mad
Even the war posts are full of this Slaver rubbish now! (and they aren't even fighting them!
If you guys don't like the Star Fraction why don't you declare on them and do something rather than chewing the fat and flapping your gums you big girls blouses.
On the other hand I dont really see anyone supporting you except this two year old pilot in a rookie pilot corp who hasnt posted since 2005 and whose other posts are very "pro-SF" in nature. Kind of sad really.
Voting for Jade as a popular character
JF pilot killed him but said sorry and gave him isk for five new ships
Vote for JF in a corp recognition contest
Defending SF against a rambling lunatic
Claiming to the alt of a big powerful alliance player
I just love that feature where you can click on a portrait and see the last posts of a character. Even using a two year old clone-jack of someone you cant hide history. There are more I found via eve-search but they're all the same as these. Check them out of you like its entertaining reading.
Archbishop
PIE WEBSITE & FORUMS PIE INFORMATION CENTER |
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