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Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
499
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Posted - 2016.01.20 11:49:06 -
[31] - Quote
I still don't understand why the insurance companies keep on paying out to these irresponsible guys that lose their ships on an hourly basis without increasing their premiums.
but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
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elitatwo
Eve Minions The-Company
1042
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Posted - 2016.01.20 12:25:10 -
[32] - Quote
morion wrote:With market history in game going back only 1 year. I can not see that with my eyes.
...and we almost care about you.
I do have all the most common ship base prices in my head, floating around and my obsessive compulsive disorder is comparing my memory with current pricetags and goes haywire.
Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike.
We will teach you everything you need and want to know.
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2507
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Posted - 2016.01.20 13:58:08 -
[33] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:Great idea for rich people, terrible idea for poor people. Ah ah ah. In the short term, perhaps. But part of what keeps the poor players poor is the relative income and buying power they lack... precisely because the rich players have such secure streams of income, especially liquid isk like insurance provides. Remember, income and buying power are all relative. A rich player(and we're really talking about rich PvE players compared to poor PvE players, I just wanted to establish that) gets way, way more raw benefit from basic insurance than a poor player ever will. Why? Because the rich player flies larger ships MUCH more often. Once you cross the barrier into flying and losing battlecruisers and battleships, you derive disproportionate benefit from it compared to people using frigates and cruisers. And that is cumulative, so the upper ends keep getting higher and higher raw numbers, outpacing the lower levels and creating inflation, which devalues the buying power of the poor player still further. To improve the lives of the space peasants we need to shake up the primary income streams in this game, and basic ship insurance is unfortunately a very big one.
The poor player would feel it worse than the rich guy if it was taken away tho since he does not have a stash of ISK to absorb losses. The player with a "rich" level of income probably no longer care about the payout one way or another because he can afford to lose the ship anyway. The player with a "poor" income is probably really happy to see that his T1 frig losses pas partially covered by a welfare system.
The base insurance isn't one at the end of the day. It's just a welfare from CCP to push player to stay in ships. The only odd part of this welfare system is that it's applied to all bracket of income unlike welfare in the real world that would usually apply only to people who effectively need it. |
Amber Starview
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
62
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Posted - 2016.01.20 14:27:13 -
[34] - Quote
Absolutely not this idea is not required or needed in any way shape or form ~1
if you have too much ISk it makes you personally unhappy give some away to a new player Corp / simple
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4434
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Posted - 2016.01.20 21:57:55 -
[35] - Quote
Khan Wrenth wrote:Doddy wrote:You live in opposite land, the eve player base is already far too risk averse, that is why pvp has dried up. Removing insurance just makes people less likely to take risks.
He's advocating for the removal of "basic" insurance, the sort that you don't buy, but the kind that pays you out when you lose your ship regardless if you bought a policy or not. I don't know if that changes your response any, but you said "removing insurance", when he's just asking for the removal of free insurance. He outright said he wants to keep other insurances that you pay for. So if someone is risk adverse, they can still buy a policy.
Even basic insurance will change peoples evaluation of the risk in certain situations, most like leading people to be more risk averse.
baltec1 wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote: You firstly believe that there is significant inflation in EVE, which is false.
It is a fact that the cost to put together a ship has doubled in the last 5 years.
I think you are actually both correct. The average price of a Hyperion battleship in January 2010 was around 124 million ISK. Now the cost is 1.88 times higher or just under 234 million ISK.
Now one could argue that that is inflation. However, if CCP does things to change the availability of minerals in game and thus the price of minerals then youGÇÖd see an increase in the price of battleships. But calling this inflation is only really true in the most basic sense of the word: inflation is an increase in prices. But typically inflation is considered to be a monetary phenomenonGÇöi.e. print more money you get inflation, contract the money supply (take money out of circulation by buying assets via open market operations or increasing ISK sinks in terms of the game) and you get deflation. In the later sense of the word inflation then the price of a Hyperion has been remarkable stable except for an uptick in the price starting in the fall of 2011 and stabilizing in Spring of 2012. When exactly did drone poo go away and when did refining loot drops from rats change? Since the Spring of 2012, the trend in price for the Hyperion has been, if anything, slightly negative. However, if we look at the data since August 2014 the price has been trending up slightly. There does appear to be a cycle in the price
All data are from eve-marketdata.com
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4434
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Posted - 2016.01.20 22:05:52 -
[36] - Quote
Regarding historical price increases for the Hyperion.
From January 2010 to November 2011 the price increased 14%. From November 2011 to April 2012 the price increased 70%.
That 70% increase is unlikely to be inflation, but is more likely due to changes in loot drops that made GÇ£mining with gunsGÇ¥ far less of a thing.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4436
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Posted - 2016.01.20 22:12:08 -
[37] - Quote
Annual average prices for a Hyperion:
YearAvg_Price 2010---113749241 2011---134637613 2012---214977236 2013---218973515 2014---207220150 2015---223308370
If there is sustained inflation...what happened to it after 2012?
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SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1647
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Posted - 2016.01.20 22:13:33 -
[38] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Doesn't matter how the prices have risen
It matters if you want to use naive price data as evidence of inflation.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
15856
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Posted - 2016.01.20 23:06:13 -
[39] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Annual average prices for a Hyperion:
YearAvg_Price 2010---113749241 2011---134637613 2012---214977236 2013---218973515 2014---207220150 2015---223308370
If there is sustained inflation...what happened to it after 2012?
I'm curious why a Hyperion, instead of Plex, is being used as the metric here?
My own claims of inflation have been purely Plex related for some time now. It's a very direct reflection on the value of time in EVE. Your time is worth less than it was in 2010, for example. A lot less.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4436
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Posted - 2016.01.20 23:49:55 -
[40] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Annual average prices for a Hyperion:
YearAvg_Price 2010---113749241 2011---134637613 2012---214977236 2013---218973515 2014---207220150 2015---223308370
If there is sustained inflation...what happened to it after 2012?
I'm curious why a Hyperion, instead of Plex, is being used as the metric here? My own claims of inflation have been purely Plex related for some time now. It's a very direct reflection on the value of time in EVE. Your time is worth less than it was in 2010, for example. A lot less.
Back up stream the reference was to a battleship and inflation.
PLEX has a much more gradual rise, but there are periods where the price climbs as well. Later when I get home I can down load the PLEX data and look at that too. I have the graphs of the average daily Hyperion prices that are quite interesting and was planning on posting those too. Well, links to them.
I've been wondering though if PLEX is soaking up much of the extra ISK in the game thus keeping inflation "away" from other in game items.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
15856
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Posted - 2016.01.20 23:56:01 -
[41] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote: I've been wondering though if PLEX is soaking up much of the extra ISK in the game thus keeping inflation "away" from other in game items.
That's been my working assumption, yes.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1655
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Posted - 2016.01.20 23:58:46 -
[42] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Annual average prices for a Hyperion:
YearAvg_Price 2010---113749241 2011---134637613 2012---214977236 2013---218973515 2014---207220150 2015---223308370
If there is sustained inflation...what happened to it after 2012?
I'm curious why a Hyperion, instead of Plex, is being used as the metric here? My own claims of inflation have been purely Plex related for some time now. It's a very direct reflection on the value of time in EVE. Your time is worth less than it was in 2010, for example. A lot less. Back up stream the reference was to a battleship and inflation. PLEX has a much more gradual rise, but there are periods where the price climbs as well. Later when I get home I can down load the PLEX data and look at that too. I have the graphs of the average daily Hyperion prices that are quite interesting and was planning on posting those too. Well, links to them. I've been wondering though if PLEX is soaking up much of the extra ISK in the game thus keeping inflation "away" from other in game items.
Neither plex nor a hyperion, by itself, would generally be used as an indicator of inflation. You would typically track a price index of a "basket of goods".
However, of the two, the hyperion would generally be a *better* indicator once you adjusted for spikes that were the result purely of direct changes to the game, such as build cost adjustments and ore/mineral yields, as to a certain degree, the price of a ship could be used as a sort of index price for the basket of minerals.
If you wanted to really assess inflation in Eve, you would want to do it across several different market segments (raw material, T2 modules, ships, etc.), and need to adjust for the above mentioned changes.
PLEX are an odd duck in their own right. New additions to the NES can tweak demand for PLEX, and they're also viewed as a "safe" inflation shield. Even if the price were to crash, they still have intrinsic value in their ability to be redeemed for AUR or game time.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4436
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Posted - 2016.01.21 01:18:34 -
[43] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Annual average prices for a Hyperion:
YearAvg_Price 2010---113749241 2011---134637613 2012---214977236 2013---218973515 2014---207220150 2015---223308370
If there is sustained inflation...what happened to it after 2012?
I'm curious why a Hyperion, instead of Plex, is being used as the metric here? My own claims of inflation have been purely Plex related for some time now. It's a very direct reflection on the value of time in EVE. Your time is worth less than it was in 2010, for example. A lot less. Back up stream the reference was to a battleship and inflation. PLEX has a much more gradual rise, but there are periods where the price climbs as well. Later when I get home I can down load the PLEX data and look at that too. I have the graphs of the average daily Hyperion prices that are quite interesting and was planning on posting those too. Well, links to them. I've been wondering though if PLEX is soaking up much of the extra ISK in the game thus keeping inflation "away" from other in game items. Neither plex nor a hyperion, by itself, would generally be used as an indicator of inflation. You would typically track a price index of a "basket of goods". However, of the two, the hyperion would generally be a *better* indicator once you adjusted for spikes that were the result purely of direct changes to the game, such as build cost adjustments and ore/mineral yields, as to a certain degree, the price of a ship could be used as a sort of index price for the basket of minerals. If you wanted to really assess inflation in Eve, you would want to do it across several different market segments (raw material, T2 modules, ships, etc.), and need to adjust for the above mentioned changes. PLEX are an odd duck in their own right. New additions to the NES can tweak demand for PLEX, and they're also viewed as a "safe" inflation shield. Even if the price were to crash, they still have intrinsic value in their ability to be redeemed for AUR or game time.
Correct, ideally we'd pick a basket of goods and then construct the price index based on the quantities and the prices. And yes, you could look at say PI, T2 components, T2 modules, ships, and so forth, much like is done today with various price indices, but even these are not really measures of inflation, they are more like attempts to measure the cost of living which can change due to inflation, but other factors as well.
Uhhhh....how did a discussion on insurance lead to price indices?
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
15857
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Posted - 2016.01.21 01:56:30 -
[44] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Uhhhh....how did a discussion on insurance lead to price indices?
One of the major reasons to delete basic insurance is to remove the isk faucet it represents. And one of the reasons to do that is to help with inflation, as well as to increase the value of non-isk rewards and income.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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M1k3y Koontz
Respawn Disabled The Initiative.
804
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Posted - 2016.01.21 03:14:54 -
[45] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote: You firstly believe that there is significant inflation in EVE, which is false.
It is a fact that the cost to put together a ship has doubled in the last 5 years.
^ Can confirm. My first Hurricane was something like 26-27m. Now they're over 50m.
How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
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M1k3y Koontz
Respawn Disabled The Initiative.
804
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Posted - 2016.01.21 03:18:36 -
[46] - Quote
morion wrote:baltec1 wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote: You firstly believe that there is significant inflation in EVE, which is false.
It is a fact that the cost to put together a ship has doubled in the last 5 years. With market history in game going back only 1 year. I can not see that with my eyes.
http://www.eve-markets.net/
That web site will let you go as far back as you want (as long as the website as existed, so 2008). You can check that way.
How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
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baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
17135
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Posted - 2016.01.21 05:03:55 -
[47] - Quote
As I said it doesnt matter how it happened prices have gone up. We have always had a great deal more isk entering the system than leaving and the last economy blob indicated that the playerbase has started to hoard isk on a scale the would rival scrooge mcduck. Spending twice as much on our things brings about problems such as PVE that has a fixed income (aka all the rewards are paid in bounties) are now effectively worth half what they used to be.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4436
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Posted - 2016.01.21 05:39:54 -
[48] - Quote
Here are the graphs I mentioned earlier...
Complete price history for the Hyperion from eve-marketdata.com
Full data
Data after April 2012.
I'm sorry this does not look like inflation. baltec1 I usually agree with much of what you are posting, but this does NOT look like inflation--i.e. an increasing money supply. The data do NOT fit that explanation unless you want us to believe that for about a 6 month period the money supply dramatically increased and that increase stopped.
This not to say that the the increase in the money supply is not having some effect overall...but looking at the graphs I have just linked, it looks like changes to minerals on the market (e.g. changes to loot drops) was the larger effect.
Further, if people are hoarding ISK then it is, by definition, not in circulation and thus cannot be influencing prices.
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baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
17135
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Posted - 2016.01.21 05:48:18 -
[49] - Quote
As I said it doesn't matter how its happened, its that its happened and its causing issues with parts of the game.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4436
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Posted - 2016.01.21 05:55:06 -
[50] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:As I said it doesn't matter how its happened, its that its happened and its causing issues with parts of the game.
Alright, you are beyond reason on this. If the costs are going up because of a supply shock to the inputs vs. a change in the money supply are two very different things. If you want to deny this, fine but you are quite simply wrong and, IMO, your reputation has taken a hit in this thread and that...that is a shame.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4436
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Posted - 2016.01.21 07:02:25 -
[51] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:baltec1 wrote:Doesn't matter how the prices have risen It matters if you want to use naive price data as evidence of inflation. '
Exactly. The reason for the price increase is different in the 2 scenarios.
Scenario 1: The supply of ISK is increasing too fast and inflation is a problem.
Scenario 2: CCP changed some aspect of the game resulting in higher prices, in this case a supply shock.
The "policy response" if we are to design one is different in each scenario, to pretend they are the same it is worse than sticking one's head in the sand, it is sticking one's head into their third point of contact.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4437
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Posted - 2016.01.21 07:24:54 -
[52] - Quote
Here is a PLEX price graph.
Linky.
This indicates, at least to me, where the problem with inflation is. My personal theory is that PLEX is viewed as a superior good, so as ISK rises consumption of PLEX rises disproportionately.
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2914
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Posted - 2016.01.21 07:50:52 -
[53] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Here is a PLEX price graph. Linky. This indicates, at least to me, where the problem with inflation is. My personal theory is that PLEX is viewed as a superior good, so as ISK rises consumption of PLEX rises disproportionately. Except even that is use based as CCP introduce more and more Aurum uses. And CCP have confirmed that most plex trades are going through investor hands, not end user hands. Which means again it's not inflation, it's market speculation on a market small enough that it can be controlled.
If anything is needed at all, it's some way to eat into the isk & asset savings of the big guys. Like oh,... costs for having more than 'x' value or 'x' volume in your hanger in a single station. Create a lot more of a use it or lose it effect which then encourages people to actually use assets rather than infinite stockpiles. However that has the downside of being very arbitrary. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4437
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Posted - 2016.01.21 08:02:07 -
[54] - Quote
General FYI:
Price index number calculations, at least on the consumer side, are attempts to calculate the cost of living. However, a true cost of living index is not observable, the next best thing is a cost of living index (COLI).
The two most commonly used COLI are a Paasche or Lapereyes indexes. However, these indexes have issues. Namely both give greater weight to price increases to price decreases. This effect is considered a bias. Further, a cost of living index does not measure just inflation but any changes that increase the cost of living. Thus, it is an overly broad interpretation of inflation.
Given the problems with the Paasche and the Laspereyes indices, such measures of inflation are biased upwards. To deal with the bias due to how the COLI is calculated teh solution is to switch to a superlative index such as the T+¦rnqvist index.
CCP could easily do this as they have all the data necessary to do this. However, there are a number of points to keep in mind.
- A price index is not necessarily a measure of inflation but a measure of the change in the ability to purchase the basket of goods that make up a given level of consumer welfare.
- Given 1 above, inflation is primarily a monetary phenomenon.
- A Cost of Living Index is an approximation of the Cost of Living Adjustment, usually an upper bound.
- Thus a COLI/COLA is an upper bound on inflation.
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baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
17136
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Posted - 2016.01.21 12:03:05 -
[55] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:baltec1 wrote:As I said it doesn't matter how its happened, its that its happened and its causing issues with parts of the game. Alright, you are beyond reason on this. If the costs are going up because of a supply shock to the inputs vs. a change in the money supply are two very different things. If you want to deny this, fine but you are quite simply wrong and, IMO, your reputation has taken a hit in this thread and that...that is a shame.
I have agreed its not all down to inflation and that the OPs idea would have little impact.
But there is still the fact that the price of everything has just about doubled aside from pirate faction ships and t2 moon goo resources. It is far more complicated than too much isk entering the system and this does need to be addressed as there are several issues this price rise has caused.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4437
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Posted - 2016.01.21 16:18:51 -
[56] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:baltec1 wrote:As I said it doesn't matter how its happened, its that its happened and its causing issues with parts of the game. Alright, you are beyond reason on this. If the costs are going up because of a supply shock to the inputs vs. a change in the money supply are two very different things. If you want to deny this, fine but you are quite simply wrong and, IMO, your reputation has taken a hit in this thread and that...that is a shame. I have agreed its not all down to isk injection and that the OPs idea would have little impact. But there is still the fact that the price of everything has doubled aside from pirate faction ships and t2 moon goo resources. It is far more complicated than too much isk entering the system and this does need to be addressed as there are several issues this price rise has caused.
Not seeing it with the moon goo except for dyspro, and in any index that would be countered by the massive drop in technetium.
The problem with inflation is that there have been other factors that is going to confuse the issue. The recent changes to manufacturing and invention for example.
Is there inflation in the economy, probably. Is it bad? Probably not at least based the items that have been looked at so far.
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baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
17136
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Posted - 2016.01.21 18:17:28 -
[57] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:
Not seeing it with the moon goo except for dyspro, and in any index that would be countered by the massive drop in technetium.
Tech is the goo I was on about. It was a bottleneck and the price was artificially high.
Teckos Pech wrote: The problem with inflation is that there have been other factors that is going to confuse the issue. The recent changes to manufacturing and invention for example.
Is there inflation in the economy, probably. Is it bad? Probably not at least based the items that have been looked at so far.
The bad isn't in everything costing twice as much its what that has done to some of the activities in the game. Belt ratting for example has gone of not bad income to terrible because of the way the reward pays out. Activities that have bounties as the primary for of payment have effectivly reduced in worth as the cost of buying stuff has gone up. With putting a ship together costing twice as much it means the effective spending power you have from running things that reward you in primerally bounties have halfed.
This means any area of space that has this form of isk gathering as its primary income is now worth half what it was worth 6 years ago.
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Lugh Crow-Slave
1454
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Posted - 2016.01.21 18:28:32 -
[58] - Quote
I'v got it we remove insurance and then bring it back but make it so you have to pay AUR for it
Citadel worm hole tax
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1765
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Posted - 2016.01.21 19:02:04 -
[59] - Quote
The hyperion (or any other ship for that matter) is a bad metric to judge inflation. Hull values have a lot of variables. I'll mention a few: Rail gun (or blaster) nerf or buff will directly affect value. Major t3 nerf would inversely effect BS value. BS class warp speed buff would directly effect value. General speed nerf would inversely effect a blaster boat. Adding MJD for BS hulls directly effects their value. Sloppy Sally puts out a skewed hyperion solo pvp video that all the pvp pubbies think is just awesome would directly effect the ships value (purely on emotion w/ no actual performance impact). Stinky Pete comes up w/ a sweet railperion doctrine that pwnts all T3 fleets - value leaps as all the null pubbies stockpile (again value is influenced by non-performance based stuff).
and so on.
The value of ship hulls are influenced by inflation, but there are a lot of other things that go into it.
Real money correlates to plex which correlates to isk and can therefore be used to measure inflation.
Stick w/ PLEX as the yardstick. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1765
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Posted - 2016.01.21 19:20:34 -
[60] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:
Not seeing it with the moon goo except for dyspro, and in any index that would be countered by the massive drop in technetium.
Tech is the goo I was on about. It was a bottleneck and the price was artificially high. Teckos Pech wrote: The problem with inflation is that there have been other factors that is going to confuse the issue. The recent changes to manufacturing and invention for example.
Is there inflation in the economy, probably. Is it bad? Probably not at least based the items that have been looked at so far.
The bad isn't in everything costing twice as much its what that has done to some of the activities in the game. Belt ratting for example has gone of not bad income to terrible because of the way the reward pays out. Activities that have bounties as the primary for of payment have effectivly reduced in worth as the cost of buying stuff has gone up. With putting a ship together costing twice as much it means the effective spending power you have from running things that reward you in primerally bounties have halfed. This means any area of space that has this form of isk gathering as its primary income is now worth half what it was worth 6 years ago.
A somewhat related factor is the ability to upgrade systems. Any system can be turned into anomaly farming heaven. There is no need to fight for 'good' space. All space is good. Since all space is good everyone has just settled in and anom farming is both easy and abundant. Getting the anom farming isk faucet under control is a different matter, but also a similar problem. Belt ratting is no longer a thing because you can warp to abelt, farm (at best) 5 mil isk and then warp to the next belt. You can upgrade any system and pollute it with anoms and make 10 of millions w/out moving. You can simultaneously support way more ratters w/ anoms than belts.
Getting rid of insurance is a great first step. Getting rid of passive isk (current moon goo stystem) is a good second step. Removing 'all space is good space' is a good third step.
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