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Iain Cariaba
2413
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Posted - 2016.01.23 12:45:34 -
[61] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Donnachadh wrote: How would you write the formula so that ALL ships had an equal chance to get away from your tractor.
All ships would not have an equal chance. The chance would depend on mass and speed as stated. i.e. it would be harder for a 2000m/s frigate to escape than it would be for a 2000m/s battle cruiser. I'm not going to waste my time writing a formula, I make no claims of being a programmer or a mathematician. However, I'm sure someone at CCP is capable of writing said formula and even including limiting factors on certain classes of ships to make this tractor beam work in a balanced way. No doubt this will not satisfy your need for hard numbers but it is all you are going to get. So, you profected this "great idea" that you had, but otherwise can't be arsed to defend or expound on it?
Got it, you apparently have nothing useful to add to your own thread, so we can lock it now.
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
I couldn't have said it better.
Hello, Mr Carebear. Would you like some cheese with that whine?
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Rek Seven
Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found
2134
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Posted - 2016.01.23 12:57:43 -
[62] - Quote
I think I have addressed the concerns quite well. If anything you are the ones being unreasonable by expecting me to detail the precise way a formula works. The thread is "I think a tractor beam would be cool to have in the game" not "I have the perfect solution to implement a new mechanic".
Also lol at you thinking you have lock powers
The wishlist is pretty much complete...
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Iain Cariaba
2413
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Posted - 2016.01.23 13:11:05 -
[63] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:I think I have addressed the concerns quite well. If anything you are the ones being unreasonable by expecting me to detail the precise way a formula works. The thread is "I think a tractor beam would be cool to have in the game" not "I have the perfect solution to implement a new mechanic". Also lol at you thinking you have lock powers You're expected to at least have thought out the idea enough so that you would be able to identify methods of abusing the mechanic, and possibly suggest counters for said abuse. You're expected to at least have thought out the idea enough so that you would be able to identify problems like Donnachadh is seeing. You've done none of this.
All you have done is say "this would be cool," and complain when people call you out on your inability to flesh out your own idea. If you can't be bothered to provide any of the thought behind your idea, then you must not think highly enough about. If you don't think highly about it, why should anyone else?
And yes, I have the same powers to report your thread as everyone else does.
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
I couldn't have said it better.
Hello, Mr Carebear. Would you like some cheese with that whine?
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Rek Seven
Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found
2134
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Posted - 2016.01.23 13:21:57 -
[64] - Quote
I answered all questions that didn't require a precise mathematical formula and have explains my reasons for this several times. So I fail to see how you see that as me saying nothing but "this would be cool".
All you have done is ask the same thing ofer and over again and made statements, that are not necessarily true and when I refute them, you ignore it as ask for a formula agai... Not once have you been constructive.
If you have a question/issue, state it clearly like Serendipity did and I'll do my best to answer.
The wishlist is pretty much complete...
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Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
732
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Posted - 2016.01.23 14:41:26 -
[65] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Donnachadh wrote: How would you write the formula so that ALL ships had an equal chance to get away from your tractor. All ships would not have an equal chance. The chance would depend on mass and speed as stated. i.e. it would be harder for a 2000m/s frigate to escape than it would be for a 2000m/s battle cruiser. I'm not going to waste my time writing a formula, I make no claims of being a programmer or a mathematician. However, I'm sure someone at CCP is capable of writing said formula and even including limiting factors on certain classes of ships to make this tractor beam work in a balanced way. No doubt this will not satisfy your need for hard numbers but it is all you are going to get. You are correct it does not satisfy me and it is now perfectly clear that you do not have a single clue about how to actually implement this idea you just want it because it is cool.
Rek Seven wrote:All ships would not have an equal chance. The chance would depend on mass and speed as stated. i.e. it would be harder for a 2000m/s frigate to escape than it would be for a 2000m/s battle cruiser. This is the worst part of the whole thing, your idea would instantly eliminate from any practical form of use in this game an entire class of ships. How do you justify that?
And so I close out my last post in this topic with my final verdict on your idea.
-1 - because you have not and will not help us try and work through some of the problems that we see in your idea.
This will fall on deaf ears and blind eyes but here goes any way. The more completely you think out an idea and yes that includes any basic MATH it may need to function in game the better your chances are to convert the skeptics on this or any other forum, and more importantly having thought that much about your idea improves your chances of success with CCP and getting it put into the game. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
1464
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Posted - 2016.01.23 15:39:11 -
[66] - Quote
I didn't know there were real tractor berms O.o?
Citadel worm hole tax
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Rek Seven
Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found
2135
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Posted - 2016.01.23 18:48:28 -
[67] - Quote
Donnachadh wrote: -1 - because you have not and will not help us try and work through some of the problems that we see in your idea.
I have tried to help you multiple times but you fail to accept my opinion that current mechanics are not my concern. That is for the programmers to solve.
You have chosen to ignore my repeated requests for you to state your issues clearly and instead, continue to post nonconstructive posts that are doing nothing but furthering pointless argument.
I do not require you're +1 and i'm not sure why you continue to post but thanks for the bumps all the same.
The wishlist is pretty much complete...
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ISD Gallifreyan
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
334
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Posted - 2016.01.23 21:21:22 -
[68] - Quote
This thread does seem to have come to the end of it's constructive criticism stage. Since The OP does not want to extrapolate an equation of how it would work, I'm not sure what there is to discuss further. However I will not lock this thread as i think there is something to the Idea.
I will lock it if the back and forth of "If you don't understand or like the idea move on" or "this is a bad idea and you should feel bad for not working harder to give CCP a polished and finished feature" continues.
If you are posting an Idea here is does need to stand up against constructive criticism. It is not constructive to dismiss comments about the core mechanics of the game.
CCP is not going to re-write core ship flight mechanics to allow for this tractor mechanic, however since it was mentioned that Structures may have a Tractor Feature Module, there is a possibility of having it put on ships in the future.
I will be watching.
(P.S. I have cleaned some of topic comments.)
ISD Gallifreyan
Lt. Commander
Community Communication Liaisons (CCL)
Interstellar Services Department
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Rek Seven
Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found
2135
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Posted - 2016.01.24 12:15:13 -
[69] - Quote
Thanks isd, I'll do my best keep this constructive and hope others do the same
Tractor equation
Max tractor speed = tractor strength - (mass x "Y" x (target velocity))
Where Y is a factor of ballance for the different hull sizes. Standard tracking penalties apply to multiple tractors.
With regards to the current aligning mesh mechanics, I feel the code should be rewritten to better simulate actual physics and prepare for any future features that would depend on a better aligning mechanic.
The wishlist is pretty much complete...
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Rek Seven
Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found
2136
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Posted - 2016.01.27 11:19:05 -
[70] - Quote
Wow, my solution has stunned the nay sayers into silence...
I'm happy to let this thread fade into the background but i hope that, with the upcoming citadel tractor beams, CCP consider introducing ship based tractor beams and perhaps what has been discussed in this thread will help them implement it in a balanced way.
The wishlist is pretty much complete...
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Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
735
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Posted - 2016.01.27 12:54:34 -
[71] - Quote
NO you have not stunned us into silence, your refusal to address legitimate questions asked leaves us with no options. Even ISD Gallifreyan noticed and commented on it, see quote below, and yet you still refuse to provide answers.
ISD Gallifreyan wrote:This thread does seem to have come to the end of it's constructive criticism stage. Since The OP does not want to extrapolate an equation of how it would work, I'm not sure what there is to discuss further. However I will not lock this thread as i think there is something to the Idea.
When / IF you decide to expand on your idea and provide some real answers then perhaps the discussion can continue. |
Rek Seven
Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found
2137
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Posted - 2016.01.27 13:27:54 -
[72] - Quote
Try looking two posts up mate.
The wishlist is pretty much complete...
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2521
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Posted - 2016.01.27 14:51:53 -
[73] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote: Max tractor speed = tractor strength - (mass x "Y" x (target velocity))
So MWD becomes even more of a "defacto" choice for prop mod since it add both more mass and speed to help escaping this. Is this intended by design of your tractor beam? |
Rek Seven
Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found
2137
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Posted - 2016.01.27 15:29:44 -
[74] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Rek Seven wrote: Max tractor speed = tractor strength - (mass x "Y" x (target velocity))
So MWD becomes even more of a "defacto" choice for prop mod since it add both more mass and speed to help escaping this. Is this intended by design of your tractor beam?
Afterburners also add mass when activate and fitting an oversized prop mod is viable on many ships, so no, i do not believe a MWD with become any more the " de facto" module than it already is.
The wishlist is pretty much complete...
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2525
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Posted - 2016.01.27 16:21:00 -
[75] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Rek Seven wrote: Max tractor speed = tractor strength - (mass x "Y" x (target velocity))
So MWD becomes even more of a "defacto" choice for prop mod since it add both more mass and speed to help escaping this. Is this intended by design of your tractor beam? Afterburners also add mass when activate and fitting an oversized prop mod is viable on many ships, so no, i do not believe a MWD with become any more the " de facto" module than it already is.
You are missing the point. What I mean is your tractor beam pigeon hold any ship that already prefer MWD deeper in there. The few ship that prefer oversized AB will still use that but everything else will be pushed toward MWD because an AB geives less benefit against this added threat to mobility.
Also, is my faster/heavyer ship pulling you if I win the battle of weight/speed or are you "anchored" so the force can only apply to others? Shouldn't the ship trying to do the pulling be stuck with his own tracting beam at least until de-activation and be pulled if the opposing ship just flat out has more movement force? |
Rek Seven
Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found
2137
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Posted - 2016.01.27 16:32:54 -
[76] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote: You are missing the point. What I mean is your tractor beam pigeon hold any ship that already prefer MWD deeper in there. The few ship that prefer oversized AB will still use that but everything else will be pushed toward MWD because an AB geives less benefit against this added threat to mobility.
Sorry i misunderstood... In my experience, there are very few ships that use an afterburner to kiting in PVP. The only time i ever use an AB in on a duel prop ship, frigate or a phantasm. In all these cases, i would either have built in redundancy or the ability to pull range from a tactoring BS before it can lock me, thanks to my speed and small sig.
Frostys Virpio wrote: Also, is my faster/heavyer ship pulling you if I win the battle of weight/speed or are you "anchored" so the force can only apply to others? Shouldn't the ship trying to do the pulling be stuck with his own tracting beam at least until de-activation and be pulled if the opposing ship just flat out has more movement force?
Good question. I was thinking that the ship could move while tractoring but perhaps being anchored would be better balanced...
The wishlist is pretty much complete...
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Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
735
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 06:38:05 -
[77] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Max tractor speed = tractor strength - (mass x "Y" x (target velocity)) Missed that please accept my apologies for that oversight.
However you may be able to fool some here with this hashed together pile of totally worthless but you will not fool me.
Given your equation above the tractor speed is physically impossible to calculate. Why you ask? Well I am glad you did ask. It is impossible to calculate because the values for tractor strength and this "Y" factor are both unknown.
So now you need to take this to the next logical step and provide yet more information and since you like to be asked very specific questions here are the next ones in the process.
Is the strength of the tractor beam a fixed value, if so what is that fixed value? If the strength of the tractor beam is variable what is the equation used to figure that value?
Is the "Y" factor a fixed value, if it is what is that value? If the "Y" factor is variable what is the equation used to figure that value? |
Rek Seven
Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found
2138
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Posted - 2016.01.28 09:50:43 -
[78] - Quote
You sure have a charming way of speaking to people.
As you will note, this is an algebraic equation and as such, exact figures are not necessary at this stage. There is nothing stopping you or anyone else from assigning a value for the tractor strength or "Y".
To explain to you how this works, as you don't seem to understand... Should CCP decide to implement this feature, they would need to look at all ship classes and come up with a value for the tractor speed and "Y" to ensure the mechanic was balanced. Expecting players to precisely design every idea in the "features and ideas" section is utterly unreasonable.
With regards to the value for "Y", you will note that i said that this is a balancing factor and as such, its purpose is to bring the sum of the "tractor speed - ship speed x mass" equation for the different hull classes, in line with each other. As a result, the figure will be < 0 with the smallest hulls having the highest "Y" value.
For example, if Y= 0.0004 for my proteus and the tractor strength was 500 m/s, with my MWD activated, i would be able to pull away at a speed of 380 m/s . However, if my MWD was switched off for some reason, i would be pulled in at a speed of 390 m/s.
My proteus: base mass = 14,153.5 t mwd speed 1164 m/s
So to answer your specific question again, the tractor speed is fixed and the "Y" value is variable
The wishlist is pretty much complete...
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2536
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 14:14:27 -
[79] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:You sure have a charming way of speaking to people. As you will note, this is an algebraic equation and as such, exact figures are not necessary at this stage. There is nothing stopping you or anyone else from assigning a value for the tractor strength or "Y". To explain to you how this works, as you don't seem to understand... Should CCP decide to implement this feature, they would need to look at all ship classes and come up with a value for the tractor speed and "Y" to ensure the mechanic was balanced. Expecting players to precisely design every idea in the "features and ideas" section is utterly unreasonable. With regards to the value for "Y", you will note that i said that this is a balancing factor and as such, its purpose is to bring the sum of the "tractor speed - ship speed x mass" equation for the different hull classes, in line with each other. Clearly, the figure will be < 0 with the smallest hulls having the highest "Y" value. For example, if Y= 0.0004 for my proteus and the tractor strength was, lets say, 500 m/s. With my MWD activated, i would be able to pull away at a speed of 380 m/s . However, if my MWD was switched off for some reason, i would be pulled in at a speed of 390 m/s. My proteus: base mass = 14,153.5 t mwd speed 1164 m/s So to answer your specific question again, the tractor speed is fixed and the "Y" value is variable
Max tractor speed = tractor strength - (mass x "Y" x (target velocity))
X = 500 - ( 14,153.5 * 0.0004 * 1164)
X = 500 - ( 6589.8696)
X = -6089.8696
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Rek Seven
Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found
2138
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Posted - 2016.01.28 14:37:57 -
[80] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote: Max tractor speed = tractor strength - (mass x "Y" x (target velocity))
X = 500 - ( 14,153.5 * 0.0004 * 1164)
X = 500 - ( 6589.8696)
X = -6089.8696
Oops it should read Max tractor speed = (mass x target velocity x "Y") - tractor strength
Also the Y in my example should have been 0.00004
Thanks for pointing that out
Thus
X = (19,153.5*1164*.00004) - 500 = 391.79
The wishlist is pretty much complete...
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2536
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Posted - 2016.01.28 18:15:57 -
[81] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote: Max tractor speed = tractor strength - (mass x "Y" x (target velocity))
X = 500 - ( 14,153.5 * 0.0004 * 1164)
X = 500 - ( 6589.8696)
X = -6089.8696
Oops thanks for pointing that out, it should have read: Max tractor speed = (mass x target velocity x "Y") - tractor strength Also the Y in my example should have been 0.00004 Thus X = (19,153.5*1164*.00004) - 500 = 391.79 To clarify, the "ship velocity" is actually the vector in relation to the tractor ship.
100MN AB
X = (64153.5*1037*0.00004) - 500
X = 2161.08718
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Rek Seven
Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found
2139
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Posted - 2016.01.28 20:49:17 -
[82] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote: X = (64153.5*1037*0.00004) - 500
X = 2161.08718
Are you saying the proteus has 64,153.5 t mass with 100 MN AB? ...I'm not able to test right now but that doesn't sound right.
The wishlist is pretty much complete...
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2536
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 20:57:37 -
[83] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote: X = (64153.5*1037*0.00004) - 500
X = 2161.08718
Are you saying the proteus has 64,153.5 t mass with 100 MN AB? ...I'm not able to test right now but that doesn't sound right.
Well according to PyFa and The EVE wiki, it does add 50 thousand tons so yeah... I was surprised too but I went with the numbers I could get... |
Rek Seven
Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found
2139
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Posted - 2016.01.28 21:19:40 -
[84] - Quote
Yeah you are right. I didn't realise it increased it that much.
In that case, any formula would have to factor in the size of the prop mod.
The wishlist is pretty much complete...
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Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
735
|
Posted - 2016.01.29 02:39:39 -
[85] - Quote
Rek before I start I want to thank you for putting some numbers to your equation idea it helps immensely. I still like your basic concept as I have from the start but there are still some serious bugs to work out.
Looking at one single ship to reduce the amount of simulations to run and because my grand niece thinks it is pretty I have been using the Tristan. Initially I set the value of "Y" to be just enough so your tractor would hold a pilot with skill acceleration control at zero(0) in a ship with no rigs and no modules.
Add even one polycarbon engine housiung and the additional speed with no additional mass allows the ship to escape your tractor. The same applies for acceleration control, have the pilot train that to level 1 or above and again they would escape your tractor.
While I agree that the formula dose not have to apply equally to all possible combinations the limited results so far concern me because they are so heavily stacked against the newer pilots with lower skills. I agree lower skills pilots will always be at a disadvantage, however I do not believe that adding a module that works so heavily against them is a good idea.
The conceptual idea of using mass and sig radius has been bothering me all day since skills would not have as much of an impact. I freely admit that this has not gone passed the concept phase but I am working on that as well. Do you folks have any ideas on how we might make the mass / sig radius work? |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2539
|
Posted - 2016.01.29 13:19:16 -
[86] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:
If we changed the formula the reflect this and used a Y value of for for frigates 0.0002, a Tristan with level 5 skill using a tech 2 MWD to travel 2980 m/s would be able to escape a tractor at a speed of 69.78 m/s... And if it were to use a T2 10mn AB at a max speed of 2076m/s, the Tristan would pe pulled in at a speed of 103.1m/s.
So a Tristan without perfect skill NEED links to escape? |
Rek Seven
Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found
2141
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Posted - 2016.01.29 13:24:22 -
[87] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Rek Seven wrote:
If we changed the formula the reflect this and used a Y value of for for frigates 0.0002, a Tristan with level 5 skill using a tech 2 MWD to travel 2980 m/s would be able to escape a tractor at a speed of 69.78 m/s... And if it were to use a T2 10mn AB at a max speed of 2076m/s, the Tristan would pe pulled in at a speed of 103.1m/s.
So a Tristan without perfect skill NEED links to escape?
They have links, implants, rigs, overdrive injectors, nanofiber internal structure, better prop mods and/or a friendly tractor beams to help them escape.
The wishlist is pretty much complete...
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Rek Seven
Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found
2141
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Posted - 2016.01.29 13:25:47 -
[88] - Quote
Delete
The wishlist is pretty much complete...
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Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
736
|
Posted - 2016.01.29 14:56:34 -
[89] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Donnachadh wrote:
The conceptual idea of using mass and sig radius has been bothering me all day since skills would not have as much of an impact. I freely admit that this has not gone passed the concept phase but I am working on that as well. Do you folks have any ideas on how we might make the mass / sig radius work?
Bigger sig make it easier or harder to escape? Higher mass make it easier to escape or harder? For now and taking into account that I have not even started sims on this one yet I am inclined to go with more mass and / or larger sig radius would make it easier for the tractor to hold a ship.
Another thing is we need to eliminate the "Y" factor if possible. While Rek's basic formula works by varying the "Y" factor the simple truth is that you end up with the over sized prop mod becoming a requirement so you can get away from this tractor and that would be a bad thing for the game since it would eliminate more fitting options than it would add. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2540
|
Posted - 2016.01.29 14:59:45 -
[90] - Quote
Donnachadh wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Donnachadh wrote:
The conceptual idea of using mass and sig radius has been bothering me all day since skills would not have as much of an impact. I freely admit that this has not gone passed the concept phase but I am working on that as well. Do you folks have any ideas on how we might make the mass / sig radius work?
Bigger sig make it easier or harder to escape? Higher mass make it easier to escape or harder? For now and taking into account that I have not even started sims on this one yet I am inclined to go with more mass and / or larger sig radius would make it easier for the tractor to hold a ship. Another thing is we need to eliminate the "Y" factor if possible. While Rek's basic formula works by varying the "Y" factor the simple truth is that you end up with the over sized prop mod becoming a requirement so you can get away from this tractor and that would be a bad thing for the game since it would eliminate more fitting options than it would add.
Larger/heavier ships not to take another hit to their already low mobility being being susceptible to tractor beam more than the light weight and small stuff? |
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