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Olivia Moon
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2016.01.23 15:04:05 -
[1] - Quote
Haven't been with EVE for almost a year and just recently resubbed knowing that SP trading will be implemented soon. And also I've read something about pay to win. Let's go straight into that.
Issues: 1) paying real money to get SP
SP has been one the thing makes EVE so unique compared to others. I enjoy that passive feelings that my character is building even when I was offline or not doing anything. Of course I am like the others, hate waiting, for right now I'm training T2 turret, it takes almost a month. To buy real-time-generated SP with money, it's like instant cash shop thing in p2w MMOs. I'm not completely in accord with those saying SP trading will be p2w, but it feels like that. It feels like SP trading is degrading the unique SP system by first, making SP devalued in that more and more SP accumulated in some characters will be cash-based, and by second, making something not-to-be-tradable commercialised.
2) no caps/limits/regulatory measures being implemented along with the SP trading
As far as I know, people can buy SP injectors as many as they want. That decreasing SP when injected according to their own total SP is not helping imo, as they can still inject unlimitedly. Also, people are often saying that you can buy characters with high SP which is pretty equivalent to SP trading. But people playing with one account is capped by 3 character slots. Unless they're willing to pay for more accounts, they would not be unlimitedly "buying SP". How about adding some kind of "cool down" like jump fatigue to prevent cash-based abuse?
Is it too late to add changes to the finalised SP trading features:(? or do I still miss something important? Thanks for any comments. |
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
10383
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Posted - 2016.01.23 15:19:48 -
[2] - Quote
Can I have your SP?
Got a HoleySheet1 corpse? I'll buy it for 200m!
Bumble's Space Log
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Dibz
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
3
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Posted - 2016.01.23 16:12:13 -
[3] - Quote
What interests me is the level of supply and demand once the initial splurge of SP has been bought and redistributed. One character will generate 500k SP in just under 8 days at max efficiency. Question is how many SP farming characters will there be? |
Olivia Moon
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2016.01.23 17:01:41 -
[4] - Quote
Dibz wrote:What interests me is the level of supply and demand once the initial splurge of SP has been bought and redistributed. One character will generate 500k SP in just under 8 days at max efficiency. Question is how many SP farming characters will there be?
I'm not worrying about the market as the presumption is that SP being a commodity which impacting the PLEX's price.
What I'm trying to express is that people can simply buy SP and bring p2w ideas into EVE. Not truly p2w but partially still kills the uniqueness.
One measure is to regulate the number of injection per month let say. But seems like CCP isn't gonna implement any injection/extraction fatigue at all... |
Dibz
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
3
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Posted - 2016.01.23 17:20:33 -
[5] - Quote
I'd be cool with them putting a limit on it, say 20 injections per month. I doubt CCP would want to limit the income from extractors though. |
d0cTeR9
Oceanic Death Squad SpaceMonkey's Alliance
309
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Posted - 2016.01.23 17:56:04 -
[6] - Quote
You are in the wrong section, there's a section to comment on the dev post. You have very poor knowledge about the subject, i suggest to re-read it a few times and the other threads. You are wrong on most of what you 'understood'.
Been around since the beginning.
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Kiandoshia
Applied Anarchy ChaosTheory.
2403
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Posted - 2016.01.23 19:22:43 -
[7] - Quote
When can we pay to change our names and whipe our corp history and just about everything we have ever done and start over literally where we left off in terms of character development?
Oh wait..
No seriously, once this is in place, can we just get a PLEX for name change feature to change our character's names without all the surrounding hassle? |
Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
605
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Posted - 2016.01.23 19:23:58 -
[8] - Quote
Well, since we are always telling people that player skill is always or nearly always more important than character skill, then I don't see how skill points suddenly turns the game into pay to win. Go buy a 100m sp character. Go buy 100m sp. You corpse will look just as pretty.
My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
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Cixi
16
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Posted - 2016.01.23 19:40:43 -
[9] - Quote
Dibz wrote:What interests me is the level of supply and demand once the initial splurge of SP has been bought and redistributed. One character will generate 500k SP in just under 8 days at max efficiency. Question is how many SP farming characters will there be?
SP farming will not be a good thing to do at least at the beginning, because people will siphon SP from their old unused cap/industry/research toons |
TigerXtrm
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
1336
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Posted - 2016.01.23 20:06:33 -
[10] - Quote
I think the current proposal is pretty solid. Especially the lower return at higher levels will mean that investing trillions of ISK into SP is essentially going to destroy vast amounts of SP in the process, which will balance out the market and the ISK value of an injector. Meanwhile the 5m SP minimum makes sure that you can't just create throwaway characters to leech SP from.
Farming is not going to be a thing because of those reasons.
My YouTube Channel - EVE Tutorials & other game related things!
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Marsha Mallow
2800
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Posted - 2016.01.23 20:44:47 -
[11] - Quote
Olivia Moon wrote:To buy real-time-generated SP with money, it's like instant cash shop thing in p2w MMOs. The trading system will be based upon existing players selling their SP rather than CCP selling skillpoints direct. It's slightly different to a cash shop and should produce some interesting dynamics. If the Injectors are priced appropriately and make CCP enough revenue, in addition to Skins and other vanity based microtransactions, they may be able to make the game FTP or significantly alter the subscription model going forward.
Olivia Moon wrote:2) no caps/limits/regulatory measures being implemented along with the SP trading There are several limiting measures that are part of the design. 1) The amount of raw SP converted will be dictated by existing players - bear in mind some may consolidate their own alts before selling - so the supply side is not artificially controlled by CCP and neither is the demand. 2) The number of Skill Injectors available. These are being sold by CCP for Aurum, and the price they set will create a baseline, but how much they sell for ingame will be dictated by player behaviour. If people are considering using real $ to acquire ingame ISK they'll have a choice between Plex and Aurum depending upon which gives the best ISK to $ reward, and you can convert Plex into Aurum. 3) The amount of SP people can inject will also depend upon how much ISK or $ they are willing to spend/have available. There will be some who are willing and can afford to spend $20k or several hundred billion for very high SP characters. That minority already exist - you see them splattered across lowsec gates in hilarious ALOD reports in their pimpmobiles.
Olivia Moon wrote:Is it too late to add changes to the finalised SP trading features:(? or do I still miss something important? Thanks for any comments. It's not too late, although you might be better off posting here. It's a new system so chances are there will be tweaks after it's released based upon feedback. If the issues you describe do become significant problems limits might be implemented, so you should report your concerns. You're not the only person flagging this btw.
Knowing they have more SP than I do isnGÇÖt going to stop me from taking the fight if I was going to take it.
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Tyburn Stannis
Xenon Salvage Inc.
164
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Posted - 2016.01.24 00:40:55 -
[12] - Quote
Quote:Issues: 1) paying real money to get SP
There is already a "pay2win" option, if you believe SP levels reflect game advantage.*
You can buy an entire character that you haven't spent a single day working on yourself, simply by purchasing PLEX for real life cash from CCP and selling it on the in game market until you have the ISK you need to buy a pilot from the fully legal character bazaar with however many SP already trained for you in pretty much whatever skills you want.
*"win" is a rather subjective term.
. |
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2881
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Posted - 2016.01.24 00:54:09 -
[13] - Quote
Once the initial spoke from people selling their stored up, unused SP is done, you'll see the price reflect much more accurately. There is going to be a very strong bottleneck in terms of players willing to continue sucking their characters of SP and that will be limited by how much SP can actually be generated. The price will also be affected by the number of people trying to inject into characters above the 5mil mark. It will devalue the overall price slightly. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
25723
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Posted - 2016.01.24 01:09:12 -
[14] - Quote
Olivia Moon wrote:Issues: 1) paying real money to get SP
SP has been one the thing makes EVE so unique compared to others. I enjoy that passive feelings that my character is building even when I was offline or not doing anything. Of course I am like the others, hate waiting, for right now I'm training T2 turret, it takes almost a month. To buy real-time-generated SP with money, it's like instant cash shop thing in p2w MMOs. I'm not completely in accord with those saying SP trading will be p2w, but it feels like that. It feels like SP trading is degrading the unique SP system by first, making SP devalued in that more and more SP accumulated in some characters will be cash-based, and by second, making something not-to-be-tradable commercialised. If you consider your amount of SP to be winning, then sure. I'm of the opinion that the skills you as a person have learnt while playing Eve are far more valuable than the skills your character has trained. 100 Million SP in the hands of somebody with no idea how to utilise it properly is always going to end badly.
Quote:2) no caps/limits/regulatory measures being implemented along with the SP trading I'm still on the fence about SP trading; however the diminishing returns, the fact that the SP has to come from other players, and that the skill injector price point will be set by players because CCP aren't seeding them directly into the market suggests that the mechanic will be self regulatory.
Quote:As far as I know, people can buy SP injectors as many as they want. That decreasing SP when injected according to their own total SP is not helping imo, as they can still inject unlimitedly. Also, people are often saying that you can buy characters with high SP which is pretty equivalent to SP trading. But people playing with one account is capped by 3 character slots. Unless they're willing to pay for more accounts, they would not be unlimitedly "buying SP". How about adding some kind of "cool down" like jump fatigue to prevent cash-based abuse?
Is it too late to add changes to the finalised SP trading features:(? or do I still miss something important? Thanks for any comments. There is a proper place for your feedback, general discussion is not it.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
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Wanda Fayne
143
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Posted - 2016.01.24 23:19:51 -
[15] - Quote
I'd pay to see behind that door in the station... |
Thorian Baalnorn
Bad Influence I N G L O R I O U S
32
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Posted - 2016.01.25 01:30:38 -
[16] - Quote
Marsha Mallow wrote:.... they may be able to make the game FTP or significantly alter the subscription model going forward.
.
I hope not F2P would ruin this game like it has so many other MMOs. Sub price needs to stay at $15 a month. |
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
723
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Posted - 2016.01.25 04:51:12 -
[17] - Quote
i just realize that part of me is well at least since it's just part no matter which ones left or right part of me but one part of me is one hand up for this change.
i'm not going to be making perfect alts with focused training que. what i'm going to do is create new pilots with cool name something like xxXimayobigbootymommaXXx with fancy DoB 02.02.2016 02:02:02 and coming with spool of unlocated SP's (2.5m; 5.0m; 7.5m; etc.) so the buyer will decide himself what he is going to do with that alt. |
Mephiztopheleze
Republic University Minmatar Republic
479
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Posted - 2016.01.25 05:49:32 -
[18] - Quote
I think you're somewhat radically overestimating the number of injectors that will actually hit the market.
I'm of the belief that those players with large pools of 'surplus' SP will probably use that SP (or the bulk of it anyways) for themselves, rather than sell on the market. Lets face it, if you have several high SP characters, you have other ways of generating ISK that doesn't involve selling SP.
It would take a major change in EVE mechanics to 'free up' vast amounts of redundant SP that might then make it to market. Getting rid of Off Grid Boosting would be such a change and it will be interesting to see what happens. Is it more profitable to sell off that SP as injectors or is it more profitable to sell off the whole character on the Bazaar?
These are all unknown quantities at the moment.
In any case, I don't expect to see them on the market for any less than around a billion ISK a pop. Some of these fanciful pieces of mathemagics where people project an ISK500m price point are, I believe, somewhat deluded.
Looking at my own meager stable of low SP alts, I can see a couple of million SP I can 'spare'. Said SP will be used by myself, not sold.
Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4440
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Posted - 2016.01.25 06:36:58 -
[19] - Quote
Olivia Moon wrote:Dibz wrote:What interests me is the level of supply and demand once the initial splurge of SP has been bought and redistributed. One character will generate 500k SP in just under 8 days at max efficiency. Question is how many SP farming characters will there be? I'm not worrying about the market as the presumption is that SP being a commodity which impacting the PLEX's price. What I'm trying to express is that people can simply buy SP and bring p2w ideas into EVE. Not truly p2w but partially still kills the uniqueness. One measure is to regulate the number of injection per month let say. But seems like CCP isn't gonna implement any injection/extraction fatigue at all...
You can't just buy SP with the up coming change. You must have a supplier, no supplier no SP to buy.
Now generally speaking the market brings together suppliers and buyers. So the only real question is...how liquid will the market be?
Olivia Moon wrote:2) no caps/limits/regulatory measures being implemented along with the SP trading
As far as I know, people can buy SP injectors as many as they want. That decreasing SP when injected according to their own total SP is not helping imo, as they can still inject unlimitedly.
Oh dear. There is nothing stopping your from buying as many televisions as you want either. But rarely do you see a person who can buy and unlimited amount of televisions. The notion of an income constraint is indeed a ThingGäó both inside and outside the game. The only person who can inject an unlimited amount of SP will be someone with an unlimited amount of ISK.
Olivia Moon wrote:Also, people are often saying that you can buy characters with high SP which is pretty equivalent to SP trading.
No, it is SP trading with less choice (i.e. you cannot choose the gender, race, name, etc.).
Olivia Moon wrote:But people playing with one account is capped by 3 character slots. Unless they're willing to pay for more accounts, they would not be unlimitedly "buying SP".
Nothing is stopping them from selling an existing character and then buying a new one with even more SP.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
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Xerrasss
The Stormcrows Stella Nova
0
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Posted - 2016.01.25 09:37:03 -
[20] - Quote
But what is with the old titan pilots and so on the suppercap pilots the chars wich are curently training indu skills because they just dont have any skills left worth skilling ! and isk farming on Titan/Supper- chars ... (why schoud i train my titan into a ship he will never fly so selling sp is a good option for them ! and just let me guess we are talking here over bilions of sp points it will take ages to drain the market to an amount where a skillpoint is worth more than an isk just because there is sooooooo much SP that will be draind from the Characters!
and another Question will the Extractr cost Aurum ?
and for me it is also p2w because all of us can remember when we first had a ship maxed out and we all knwo the fdifference from sitting in a hull and properly flying a hull is a big difference ! Ofcourse player skills is a big thing in eve but charskils aswell.
pls tell me what you tink fellow Capsuliers!
Xerrasss
ps.: hopfully everybody understand this is not a rage post! (and hopefully my english is not to bad ^^) |
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Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4273
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Posted - 2016.01.25 10:49:04 -
[21] - Quote
In a nutshell:
. Up to now you can get SP by being subbed or by buying a character on the bazaar
. In a few weeks you'll also be able to get SP from somebody else's characters (or your alts)
Not sure what p2w has to do with this specific change. Note that both the current two SP-gaining options and the new one require you or someone else to pay CCP for the privilege.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
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Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
725
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Posted - 2016.01.25 10:57:52 -
[22] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:In a nutshell:
. Up to now you can get SP by being subbed or by buying a character on the bazaar
. In a few weeks you'll also be able to get SP from somebody else's characters (or your alts)
Not sure what p2w has to do with this specific change. Note that both the current two SP-gaining options and the new one require you or someone else to pay CCP for the privilege.
over 60 pages of why's |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4273
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Posted - 2016.01.25 11:03:52 -
[23] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote:In a nutshell:
. Up to now you can get SP by being subbed or by buying a character on the bazaar
. In a few weeks you'll also be able to get SP from somebody else's characters (or your alts)
Not sure what p2w has to do with this specific change. Note that both the current two SP-gaining options and the new one require you or someone else to pay CCP for the privilege. over 60 pages of why's Yeah, read some of that, there's no coherent argument about this specific change making eve more or less p2w than it currently is.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
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Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
725
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Posted - 2016.01.25 11:12:51 -
[24] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Tiddle Jr wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote:In a nutshell:
. Up to now you can get SP by being subbed or by buying a character on the bazaar
. In a few weeks you'll also be able to get SP from somebody else's characters (or your alts)
Not sure what p2w has to do with this specific change. Note that both the current two SP-gaining options and the new one require you or someone else to pay CCP for the privilege. over 60 pages of why's Yeah, read some of that, there's no coherent argument about this specific change making eve more or less p2w than it currently is.
plenty, but more likely you "don't want" to find those arguments |
Mithandra
Catastrophic Operations Get Off My Lawn
434
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Posted - 2016.01.25 11:36:46 -
[25] - Quote
Its just another method for ccp to generate income with people having to buy extractors
Doesn't matter how many sp you have if you lack experience in what you are flying
good thing? bad thing? I'm taking the "wait and see" approach.
Eve is the dark haired, totally hot emo gothchild of the gaming community
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Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4273
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Posted - 2016.01.25 13:15:08 -
[26] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Tiddle Jr wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote:In a nutshell:
. Up to now you can get SP by being subbed or by buying a character on the bazaar
. In a few weeks you'll also be able to get SP from somebody else's characters (or your alts)
Not sure what p2w has to do with this specific change. Note that both the current two SP-gaining options and the new one require you or someone else to pay CCP for the privilege. over 60 pages of why's Yeah, read some of that, there's no coherent argument about this specific change making eve more or less p2w than it currently is. plenty, but more likely you "don't want" to find those arguments Probably these coherent arguments that you speak of are well hidden among the over 1000 posts of nonsense.
Help me out, point out a couple of good ones.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
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Keno Skir
783
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Posted - 2016.01.25 14:03:05 -
[27] - Quote
More unskilled players flying battleships they bought SP for is a win in my book, and in my wallet.
Gùï> 30 Day Buddy Trial + ISK Bonus & Starting Assistance <Gùï
Feel free to contact me regarding my posts, or my 30 Day EvE Buddy Trials \o/
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4443
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Posted - 2016.01.25 15:52:55 -
[28] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Tiddle Jr wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Tiddle Jr wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote:In a nutshell:
. Up to now you can get SP by being subbed or by buying a character on the bazaar
. In a few weeks you'll also be able to get SP from somebody else's characters (or your alts)
Not sure what p2w has to do with this specific change. Note that both the current two SP-gaining options and the new one require you or someone else to pay CCP for the privilege. over 60 pages of why's Yeah, read some of that, there's no coherent argument about this specific change making eve more or less p2w than it currently is. plenty, but more likely you "don't want" to find those arguments Probably these coherent arguments that you speak of are well hidden among the over 1000 posts of nonsense. Help me out, point out a couple of good ones.
Sorry can't point to a specific post, but I will say that CCP has been rather clever here.
Outright selling of SP (created out of "thin air" by CCP) would be a disaster. Here CCP has created a scenario where aside from standard training SP in the game cannot increase and if anything my decrease.
Too the extent that the SP differential between older and newer players is a potential issue in terms of the game experience, this may...or may not be a good thing. There are a number of threads about gating, the power of older players with alot of SP, etc. with alot of sturm und drang and people just talking past each other.
CCP's view is (probably) that this new feature is taking the character bazaar to the next step. As I noted with the character bazaar there is much less choice. You may find a near match, but not a perfect match. This new feature will give greater control to the player, but at a cost (the decreasing marginal returns is pretty steep).
The fear is that veterans might find a way to use this to an overwhelming advantage relative to new players. The problem with this view point is that the "overwhelming advantage" might not be readily apparent. For example, the FW Exploit of 2012. A small number of clever players saw the problem. They warned CCP. CCP ignored them and so those players decided...okay, fine...and proceeded to abuse the frack out of it. Scroll down to the chart to see the problem.
Basically, these problems boil down to not having perfect foresight...which obviously we humans don't have. Sometimes in our hubris we forget that and do dumb things. You can see all the time in RL where **** really matters....as in billions of dollars are at stake if not trillions. Are we to believe that a handful of people at CCP are better at spotting these potential risks? They certainly were not able to see the problem with FW LP...and they were literally warned on that one.
I can assure you on one thing...PLEX prices will undoubtedly be affected by this. Already it looks like the recent price stability in PLEX is over with a new upward trend. That is going to cause another round of people posting about the unfairness of it all.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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DaReaper
Net 7
2741
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Posted - 2016.01.25 17:24:11 -
[29] - Quote
Mephiztopheleze wrote: ..
It would take a major change in EVE mechanics to 'free up' vast amounts of redundant SP that might then make it to market. Getting rid of Off Grid Boosting would be such a change and it will be interesting to see what happens...
not really sure why you think this. you will still need your booster alts, they will just be on grid with you. so i doubt you will a massive dumping of alts. tbh
OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!
Yes i am optimistic about eve.. i'm giving it till dec 31st 2016 before i doom n gloom
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4443
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Posted - 2016.01.25 20:01:31 -
[30] - Quote
DaReaper wrote:Mephiztopheleze wrote: ..
It would take a major change in EVE mechanics to 'free up' vast amounts of redundant SP that might then make it to market. Getting rid of Off Grid Boosting would be such a change and it will be interesting to see what happens... not really sure why you think this. you will still need your booster alts, they will just be on grid with you. so i doubt you will a massive dumping of alts. tbh
Yeah I didn't get that either. Maybe....the FC will not want to use the alt...maybe? In which case the he could sell then alt or sell the SP.
In any event, it would be transitory effect not a permanent one.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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