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Mag's
Rabble Inc. Rabble Alliance
21125
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Posted - 2016.02.02 07:21:17 -
[601] - Quote
KickAss Tivianne wrote:Mag's wrote:Sorry but you brought up the wreck change and mentioned it in a way that tried to make it look as though it was done because of popping wrecks of ganking. It wasn't. I'm not sure what you mean regarding evidence, but the actual request thread as well as the dev thread, explains the reasons and supplies the evidence.
Also when did I slander you? I do find it odd, or rather should I say telling, you now do not wish to discuss a topic you raised, after being shown it didn't help your stance.
Edit auto correct Sorry, you did not slander me. It was just making a statement of previous comments. I am sorry if you felt it was directed to you. I did bring that up,as just an example, im sure there are other reasons why they did it., but it sounds like from reddit, there could have been more other fun stuff done as apposed to just increasing HP. https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/43oikc/dev_post_wreck_hitpoint_rebalance/ I did not happen to see the evidence in any post that states why make the change (im being sincere). If you have it, please link it. OK no worries about the slander, let's forget it.
Yes you brought it up as an example. But in doing so, you failed to mention that ganking was a side issue in regards to this change. You used it in conjunction with Scipio's attempt at data gathering and implied it was all due to ganking wrecks. Also that his data didn't support that change, as no wrecks were popped. The trouble is the evidence for that change was offered in the original request thread and then stated by CCP in the dev one.
Anthar Thebess wrote:Currently almost any frigate can instantly kill any wreck. This have good and bad application in game, but usually it is abused to prevent someone from warp , salvage or loot something. This is from the original request thread. So what evidence does it provide? Well for a start yes, almost any frigate can instantly kill any wreck. That is a fact. It is also a fact it's done to prevent warp ins, salvage or loot.
He then offers up what he thinks the change should be, why and how it could affect the game. Someone even asks him in the first page about gank wrecks. He replies:
Anthar Thebess wrote:Yes , like you see this is one of the issues. Most important for me are the warpins, after the fleet warp changes those will be very important things on battlefield. "We need to kill one of the leading ships to provide warpin to bombers!"
Now you just ungroup your guns and instantly clear those.
Remember that when people see ISK they tend to do stupid things , and provide tons of content.
If you want to troll the gankers , have a bomber with scrams sitting near the dead freighter. No targeting delay after decloack. So we can see he's thought about it, but it's not his main concern.
Now to the Dev thread. Fozzie laid out the premise in his OP and asks for feedback to the planned change. He specifically states that atm, a shuttle wreck is the same size as a Titan one and they wish to change it. A CSM member has championed this change, but it isn't the first time this has happened and it will not be the last. Not only that, but it seems the whole CSM feedback so far has been positive.
Even the reddit thread talks of Titans and warp ins. Try not to let your focus on ganking, blind you to the overall view of why this change happened. CCP decided that having a shuttle wreck the same size as a Titan wreck, needed to change.
CCP Fozzie wrote:Up until now, wrecks (other than those belonging to Ship Maintenance Array and X-Large Ship Maintenance Array starbase structures) have all had a uniform 500 hull hitpoints. This makes them very easy to destroy, with no difference between destroying a shuttle wreck and a titan wreck.
We've seen a few requests here and there to tweak this mechanic from players, and recently Endie from the CSM has brought the issue up with us and championed it. We've got a set of changes ready for the February release that should help bring wreck hitpoints into a better state. In other words, they agree the evidence shows that wrecks should emulate their ships in what size it should be. The evidence is there.
Wrecks are being changed because of their ease of being shot, size inconsistency and stopping warp ins. There is no dispute on this and the reasons why some may want this change as opposed to others, is irrelevant.
So what about bumping. Well you talk of being bumped for 30 to 60 minutes without repercussions. I've already linked a thread on just that and it was deemed working as intended. What you fail to mention in this regard, is the other pilots who traveled the same lane and were not bumped. Figures shown in this thread from Redfrog, indicate a 0.1% failure rate.
Now I could understand there being a problem, if: A. It was a far higher figure. B. It wasn't so easily avoidable. C. Couldn't be escaped once started.
Seeing as none of this are the case, just why is it a problem that needs a fix? What do you base your 'problem' on?
Putting this aside for a moment. If I told you that the inclusion of one more pilot, could improve your odds to 99.9%. What would you say? If it was the chance of ganking someone, you'd be up in arms I'm sure. I mean two pilots and those odds, it's rather high. As it's the chance of being caught currently in a freighter with a webber, I seems it's fine. Gankers accept it and even suggest it's use.
So just what are you basing your problem on? Just why is this easily avoidable situation, in need of a balance pass? This is the evidence we would like to see.
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
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Brad Neece
The Scope Gallente Federation
12
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Posted - 2016.02.02 08:01:09 -
[602] - Quote
One looting issue I brought up....that seem to have been ignored in those posts. The fact that you can loot after you've started to warp startup(Right click, Warpto or Dock).....your able to Loot All, pretty much up to point of insta warp the moment you go suspect. I'm linking 2 videos that confirm this is an issue. The pilot in this video, has me locked and is SPAMMING point. I seem to go invulnerable the moment of suspect.
We've witnessed freighters do this....and that a sloooowwww painful thing to watch. Multiple potential looters on grid, who do you bump? and who do prelock? all that good stuff.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2aCCgJYKaI&feature=youtu.be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBvTXOAYhSg&feature=youtu.be
And yes, this aren't properly trimmed down.....deal with it :) |
Iain Cariaba
2482
|
Posted - 2016.02.02 08:04:17 -
[603] - Quote
KickAss Tivianne wrote:The fact that everyone is so defensive about this, means that this mechanic means a lot to you. Actually, the mechanic means absolutely nothing to me. I tried my hand at ganking, found it wasn't something I enjoyed. But, just because I don't enjoy ganking doesn't mean I should support yet another nerf to the play style. I realize that my freighter is a capital ship, and that capital ships aren't something for solo game play. I can also fly dreads and carriers, but wouldn't dream of flying them solo either.
KickAss Tivianne wrote:This is not just me. Yeah, it pretty much is. You've got a little support, but for the most part the players seem to be against you.
KickAss Tivianne wrote:Read the comments again. Why? You've said nothing that hasn't already been said in any of the 17,132,843 or so prior threads to nerf ganking. You've produced no evidence tonsupport your claim that there's a problem here. In fact, even when evidence is provided that shows you to be in error, you retort that any evidence to support your claim is missing because it "does not come easily." Have you stopped to consider that the lack of evidence to support you is because there is no actual problem, only that you imagine there is?
KickAss Tivianne wrote:But this is not over. This should've been over 29 pages ago. I can only surmise that the lack of lock for redundancy on this thread is because it gives people like you somewhere to whine about the 0.11% chance of having a freighter ganked without starting a new thread.
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
I couldn't have said it better.
Hello, Mr Carebear. Would you like some cheese with that whine?
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Brad Neece
The Scope Gallente Federation
12
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Posted - 2016.02.02 08:28:58 -
[604] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:KickAss Tivianne wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:KickAss Tivianne wrote:So I am saying that data is incomplete. I said in the first post where the data is laid down that no conclusion can yet be made from it. It is incomplete data and a very small dataset. it doesn't yet contain sufficient information one way or the other that this is an issue. But it will, because the dataset will continue to grow to a point where is it useful to support statements one way or the other. That's a while off yet, but it will happen because I was told that the evidence has been posted in this thread, when it hasn't. So lets all see, verifiably where it's a problem or not, but we can't say that yet from the small dataset. If thats what will make everyone happy... wonderful. Ill PM you in game when I see such acts take place. No need yet. When I get onto stage 2 looking at the issue of looting as outlined in the OP, then that will be useful, but at this initial stage to establish whether bumping is a problem or not, there's no need to go to specific cases, just to look at the overall risk. So I'll let you know when I move into testing the looting claims.
If need help determine the days and hours of ganking to collect bumping data, this helps.
https://gankerlookout.com/#victim%3A%20Providence%3B%20victim%3A%20Charon%3B%20victim%3A%20Obelisk%3B%20victim%3A%20Fenrir%3B%20victim%3A%20Ark%3B%20victim%3A%20Rhea%3B%20victim%3A%20Anshar%3B%20victim%3A%20Nomad%3B%20victim%3A%20Orca%3B%20victim%3A%20Bowhead
That covers that past 5.5 months.....If you click Activity Card.....it'll give a day and hour breakdown.
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Morrigan LeSante
Senex Legio The OSS
1147
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Posted - 2016.02.02 08:35:20 -
[605] - Quote
KickAss Tivianne wrote:Or just swing by Uedama and watch, it really would not be hard to see it happen.
KickAss Tivianne wrote:This is a problem, and it is something that evidence does not come easily.
You wanna pick a position and stick with it any time soon mate? |
bigbud skunkafella
Not The Usual Suspects
3
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Posted - 2016.02.02 09:46:56 -
[606] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:[quote=bigbud skunkafella]@
[quote
It is a proposal that would only work for illegal targets in highsec (and then not even because of the reasons outlined). It wouldn't even work for legal targets in highsec, since they can also be scrammed for as long as needed.
that is the whole point of my suggestion, to assist an illegal target in hisec against unlimited bumping, giving the bumped pilot an opportunity to escape rather than the current options of log off and die, self destruct , pay ransom and die, or just die...
as for null/lo freighters, lore wise it could be that due to the extremely large mass of freighters , the emergency mjd only works in hisec due to needing f some sort of boosting from a network of sophisticated boosting structures only cost viable in concord protected hisec .
so , having an opportunity to emergency jump away from a squad of incoming catas won't possibly work because....?
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baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
17244
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Posted - 2016.02.02 09:53:44 -
[607] - Quote
Brad Neece wrote:One looting issue I brought up....that seem to have been ignored in those posts. The fact that you can loot after you've started to warp startup(Right click, Warpto or Dock).....your able to Loot All, pretty much up to point of insta warp the moment you go suspect. I'm linking 2 videos that confirm this is an issue. The pilot in this video, has me locked and is SPAMMING point. I seem to go invulnerable the moment of suspect. We've witnessed freighters do this....and that a sloooowwww painful thing to watch. Multiple potential looters on grid, who do you bump? and who do prelock? all that good stuff. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2aCCgJYKaI&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBvTXOAYhSg&feature=youtu.be And yes, this aren't properly trimmed down.....deal with it :)
How about bumping the freighter so it cant do this?
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
44164
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Posted - 2016.02.02 10:19:17 -
[608] - Quote
bigbud skunkafella wrote:so , having an opportunity to emergency jump away from a squad of incoming catas won't possibly work because....? For the simple reason that has already been outlined.
The bumping Machariel would also fit an MJD and just jump straight to the freighter, which is now on the long cooldown you proposed and can't use the MJD again.
So even if the gank pilots get caught by antigankers and need to go refit, the outcome is exactly the same, the freighter will die and the MJD is pointless.
If anything, it would give inexperienced freighter pilots a belief they can escape and make them even less likely to use the already available tools that actually work, but that's just a bit of speculation. It certainly wouldn't make them more likely to use what is already known to work.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Rhamnousia Nosferatu
Bunnyhopping days
231
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Posted - 2016.02.02 10:50:00 -
[609] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:If anything, it would give inexperienced freighter pilots a belief they can escape and make them even less likely to use the already available tools that actually work, but that's just a bit of speculation. It certainly wouldn't make them more likely to use what is already known to work.
It would also give experienced and active pilots an opportunity to get webbed into warp (after bumping started). How would that be bad? |
bigbud skunkafella
Not The Usual Suspects
3
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Posted - 2016.02.02 13:52:02 -
[610] - Quote
also, from my observations from assisting hundreds of freighters , webbing only works if the freighter has no lateral movement, meaning it can be aligned correctly to a warp in/out, but all the bumper has to do to prevent warp is side swipe the freighter. so to say bring a webber and all will be well once the freighter is being bumped isnt quite true ....
Guide: Providence and Ark A freighers is bumpable. Which means that if anyone wants to kill it, it dies. The gankers can keep it on grid indefinitely and can attempt to kill it as many times as they please. There is nothing you can do about it.
http://greedygoblin.blogspot.hu/2015/11/guide-providence-and-ark.html
i have limited time in rl to be a forum warrior, let alone play eve. i suggest if you have any queries as to why the above is true then you contact gevlon goblin, who i am sure will have all the data you require...
re the guy who asked to supply proof that being bumped for x amount of hours, while helpless in a giant space pinball costs subscribers, let's just call it an educated guess. i can't see the day that ccp will release a promo video extolling the virtues of the above to attract new players....
whether or not there is a need to do something about bumping is for ccp to decide, they have all the evidence required to make a decision, including petitions, complaints, subscriber figures etc. i think it's telling that on numerous occasions even bumpers have admitted that bumping mechanics are way op....
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1792
|
Posted - 2016.02.02 14:10:11 -
[611] - Quote
So my wh invasion orca was getting bumped in Niarja last night. We saved it. I'll give you the rundown of what it took.
3 webbing ships with a total of 5 webs AND a white knight kronos to counter bump the mach. Now that I've pulled it off for real I'd like to put some things to bed.
You can't 'simply' web a capital ship once it's being bumped. The slow down and align times of a bumped capital DO NOT allow enough time for 5 unbonussed webs to get it into warp before the mach makes another run and sends it flying. It wasn't even close. I will say that a rapier or huginn may have a chance to web a cap into warp up until the first bump occurs. Once the first mach bump occurs - webbing alone is pointless. The speed of the bounced ship in the bounced direction can't be reduced enough between bumps.
The only actual way to 'simply' save a capital once bumping is in progress is to bump and disrupt the mach AND apply webs to the capital.
Simply webbing with one additional corpmate once bumping is in progress is now disproven. It takes a team to extract the capital ship. Bumping the mach is the key.
The webbers involved were all experienced webbers that have been webbing caps into warp for years. The Orca pilot was also experienced and has the right skill points in the right places. He has max align skills for caps AND knows when and when not to ask for web application. We're not unskilled unexperienced noobs (as far as cap webbing goes).
'Simply webbing' a cap once the bumping process has begun isn't a thing. Counter bumping the mach to get your guy free and into warp is a thing (bring webs too!) |
Morrigan LeSante
Senex Legio The OSS
1148
|
Posted - 2016.02.02 14:15:48 -
[612] - Quote
You'd have been quicker and easier scramming and webbing the bumping machariel with T1 frigates. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3061
|
Posted - 2016.02.02 14:18:15 -
[613] - Quote
Waiting until the freighter is bumped before you start webbing is the problem there. If you web the freighter after it decloaks, you need about three seconds to web it into warp, even less time with a daredevil. Bumpers arent going to get you within that time frame. Webbing is a sure way to get past bumpers.
Again with the terrible 'limbo' argument. Theres nothing you can do about a lot in this game, especially if you negligently compromised your own position. Being held in limbo can even be done numerous ways. Whats telling is you guys are fine with people being held in limbo in every way except when gankers do it.
The link you posted is gevlon goblin giving advice on how to tank and then says that most people that lose their freighters deserve it. He also says ganking is 'widespread' because people are stupid with their freighters. Well at least hes right about the stupid part.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1792
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Posted - 2016.02.02 14:43:09 -
[614] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:Waiting until the freighter is bumped before you start webbing is the problem there. If you web the freighter after it decloaks, you need about three seconds to web it into warp, even less time with a daredevil. Bumpers arent going to get you within that time frame. Webbing is a sure way to get past bumpers.
Again with the terrible 'limbo' argument. Theres nothing you can do about a lot in this game, especially if you negligently compromised your own position. Being held in limbo can even be done numerous ways. Whats telling is you guys are fine with people being held in limbo in every way except when gankers do it.
The link you posted is gevlon goblin giving advice on how to tank and then says that most people that lose their freighters deserve it. He also says ganking is 'widespread' because people are stupid with their freighters. Well at least hes right about the stupid part.
Don't be such a tool. I'm not arguing for or against any changes. I'm just stating the facts of the matter. I also stated that webbing w/ a rapier/huginn before bumping is a good idea. Daredevil is also an OK idea, but I'd go w/ a recon over the daredevil because of the time to run to the cap to get in web range AND the possibility of bumping the cap w/ the daredevil. Recons have neither of these mentioned possible down sides. Recons are probably better at webbing before that first bump lands.
My point is that even w/ experienced webbers, once that first bump lands - webbing no longer matters.
My second point is that bumping the mach is the way to go.
If you review my corps kb you can see we've spent the last 5 days in Apanake ganking mission boats, well teaching folks what are and what are not good targets. I'm not a part of the anti ganking crowd.
I do dislike stupid arguments. Many pro bumping arguments are stupid (not yours in this post, so don't get your panties all bunched up and think I'm getting personal on you) (well I did call you a tool, but not based on your arguments, just your attitude )
I also think the current bumping mechanics are kind of dumb and it's just too easy to hold a guy w/out the aggression timer that would allow so many wonderful explosive counters. I also think that 'suiciding the mach' isn't a valid counter for a bad mechanic. I do think the best option to avoid getting cargo ganked is using a JF to avoid Niarja and the other obvious gates. I also think that preventing a capital from getting ganked is really really easy in the avoidance phase of the operation.
PRO HINT: Most ganks occur in a very small number of systems - don't go into these few systems unprepared. Niarja for example, come into it from a side gate and don't rule out getting ganked 1j out.
TL/DR Ganking is fine and working as intended. I personally think the bumping mechanics are stupid. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1792
|
Posted - 2016.02.02 14:47:59 -
[615] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:You'd have been quicker and easier scramming and webbing the bumping machariel with T1 frigates.
We had just declared our week of HS R&R over and we in the process of moving to invade a wh. We had just spent a lot of isk clearing a bunch of kill rights from other shinanigans. Based on timing we didn't want to put kill rights back on the ledger literally 15 minutes after we finished clearing the books. We went w/ webs once the white knight in the kronos started going for the mach. It all worked out.
I do agree with you though - you have to stop the mach if you want to extract once the bumping is in progress. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3062
|
Posted - 2016.02.02 15:04:18 -
[616] - Quote
My post was directed at bigbud. Id didnt see yours serendipity before i hit post.
I wouldnt mind bumping becoming an aggressive act, but there is no way for the server to know when its accidental or malicious. And id like to see some nerfs to hauling before i see more nerfs to ganking.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1793
|
Posted - 2016.02.02 15:09:54 -
[617] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:My post was directed at bigbud. Id didnt see yours serendipity before i hit post.
I wouldnt mind bumping becoming an aggressive act, but there is no way for the server to know when its accidental or malicious. And id like to see some nerfs to hauling before i see more nerfs to ganking.
Well aren't I just the thin skinned whiney biatch then?
Oops and sorries! |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
25751
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Posted - 2016.02.02 15:34:44 -
[618] - Quote
The only problems with ganking/bumping are that the victims are, for the most part, too greedy in terms of how much they carry and too lazy to take active steps to protect their load; in some cases they're so damn lazy they aren't even at the keyboard.
Webs work, I use them for my Orca all the time, I've seen miners spiderweb each other in order to be aligned and able to warp in an instant, I've seen webbed freighters successfully evade bumpers and their cohorts; unfortunately, for some, they require effort and somebody who is paying attention to be effective.
I haul through Uedama regularly, I have a (r)isk limit and do so in a well tanked industrial that aligns like a cruiser. You don't have to fight gankers, you just have to make sure that somebody else is a far more succulent meal.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3062
|
Posted - 2016.02.02 15:36:23 -
[619] - Quote
Precisely. Once the players find out how the server recognises malicious vs accident, they will exploit it.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1793
|
Posted - 2016.02.02 16:02:31 -
[620] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:The only problems with ganking/bumping are that the victims are, for the most part, too greedy in terms of how much they carry and too lazy to take active steps to protect their load; in some cases they're so damn lazy they aren't even at the keyboard.
Webs work, I use them for my Orca all the time, I've seen miners spiderweb each other in order to be aligned and able to warp in an instant, I've seen webbed freighters successfully evade bumpers and their cohorts; unfortunately, for some, they require effort and somebody who is paying attention to be effective.
I haul through Uedama regularly, I have a (r)isk limit and do so in a well tanked industrial that aligns like a cruiser. You don't have to fight gankers, you just have to make sure that somebody else is a far more succulent meal.
Webs only work before the first bump occurs. |
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1793
|
Posted - 2016.02.02 16:06:10 -
[621] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:Precisely. Once the players find out how the server recognises malicious vs accident, they will exploit it.
Maybe CCP should just make me the supreme judge of malicious intent. For a fee folks could live feed me their case and I could evaluate it and with a click make the malicious evil doers flashy yellow for all to enjoy.
I've already proven I'm infallible, so I'm the likely choice for this task. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
25751
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Posted - 2016.02.02 16:15:49 -
[622] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:The only problems with ganking/bumping are that the victims are, for the most part, too greedy in terms of how much they carry and too lazy to take active steps to protect their load; in some cases they're so damn lazy they aren't even at the keyboard.
Webs work, I use them for my Orca all the time, I've seen miners spiderweb each other in order to be aligned and able to warp in an instant, I've seen webbed freighters successfully evade bumpers and their cohorts; unfortunately, for some, they require effort and somebody who is paying attention to be effective.
I haul through Uedama regularly, I have a (r)isk limit and do so in a well tanked industrial that aligns like a cruiser. You don't have to fight gankers, you just have to make sure that somebody else is a far more succulent meal. Webs only work before the first bump occurs. Agreed, once you're bumped you're pretty much screwed unless you're able to pull off some of the more esoteric tricks, or have friends to confound the dastardly bounders doing the bumping.
The trick is to not put yourself in a situation where the webs are ineffective, do it right and you can be in warp quicker than a would-be bumper can react and land a hit.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
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Rhamnousia Nosferatu
Bunnyhopping days
234
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Posted - 2016.02.02 16:40:01 -
[623] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:The trick is to not put yourself in a situation where the webs are ineffective, do it right and you can be in warp quicker than a would-be bumper can react and land a hit. As it has been pointed out so many times before, having a webber guarantees nothing as seen in this case. That BB died suicide tackling the bowhead, which died too after 43 minutes. The thing is - all of the counters that have been discussed might work now and then. Add another bumper and there is absolutely no way out, well except for ganking the bumpers. Ganking two bumping machariels would take significant numbers, coordination and some actual skill (unlike freighter ganking), and all of that just to get rid of aggression free warp disruption. Now, that's awesome. Also, I have seen situations with more then two bumper on the scene, so do your math.
Yes, this bowhead risked way too much and could have planned better, be smart and haul modules in a BR etc. However, how is having 43 minutes to get your pings out and your fleet ready without any reasonable way of reacting (in low or null you always have an option to shoot at the other guy w/o Concord protecting him) or avoiding what's gonna happen acceptable, logical and good in terms of game design I really can't see. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1793
|
Posted - 2016.02.02 16:52:04 -
[624] - Quote
We saved our orca after it was being bumped last night. It took 5 guys. If you don't have 5 guys to pull you out of the well, don't fall in it.
If it takes you more than 43 minutes to get your corp to come to your defense - get better corpies. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
25752
|
Posted - 2016.02.02 17:05:46 -
[625] - Quote
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:The trick is to not put yourself in a situation where the webs are ineffective, do it right and you can be in warp quicker than a would-be bumper can react and land a hit. As it has been pointed out so many times before, having a webber guarantees nothing as seen in this case (if you look at that char's kb, you'll find more similar cases). That BB died suicide tackling the bowhead, which died too after 43 minutes. So webs mean nothing really. Nothing is guaranteed, except that Concord will destroy any ship involved in unsanctioned hisec aggression. You can however, tip the odds in your favor by using many of the tactics and mechanics that have been discussed. The gankers and bumpers do, why don't the majority of haulers?
Quote:Furthermore - all of the counters that have been discussed might work now and then. Add another bumper and there is absolutely no way out, well except for ganking the bumper. The tactics and mechanics being discussed work more often than they don't in the hands of someone who understands them; if the hauler involved is any kind of competent they can, and often do escape bumpers. Which part of not putting yourself in a situation where webs are ineffective did you fail to understand? You use the webs before you get bumped
Quote:Ganking two bumping machariels would take significant numbers, coordination and some actual skill (unlike freighter ganking), and all of that just to get rid of aggression free warp disruption. Now, that's awesome. Also, I have seen situations with more then two bumper on the scene, so do your math. Bollocks, bump fit Machs often have little or no tank, tanking damage isn't in the parameters of what they are being used for; and it take no more coordination and skill that that which gankers and bumpers employ.
It's not aggression free warp disruption either, warp disruption requires the use of a module that disables the warp drive, bumping doesn't do that, it interferes with alignment, as do webs; it in no way interferes with the warp drive.
The counters to bumping are out there, and they generally work if you put a little forethought into what and how you fly.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
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Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
2105
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Posted - 2016.02.02 17:32:46 -
[626] - Quote
Dear anti-gankers
Maybe you should learn to play with the current rules of the game before you ask for more changes that will backfire in your face anyway.
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1786
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Posted - 2016.02.02 17:35:37 -
[627] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Dear anti-gankers
Maybe you should learn to play with the current rules of the game before you ask for more changes that will backfire in your face anyway.
They tried that. Now that they've figured out that glomming onto Concord killmails doesn't actually accomplish anything, all they have left is, "Whaaa, change the rules because we keep losing!"
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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Giaus Felix
Hedion University Amarr Empire
109
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Posted - 2016.02.02 17:37:40 -
[628] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Dear anti-gankers
Maybe you should learn to play with the current rules of the game before you ask for more changes that will backfire in your face anyway.
:effort:
I am Ralph's junk DNA.
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1795
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Posted - 2016.02.02 18:35:32 -
[629] - Quote
Giaus Felix wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:Dear anti-gankers
Maybe you should learn to play with the current rules of the game before you ask for more changes that will backfire in your face anyway.
:effort:
So the white knight in the kronos on the Niarja gate that was pretty much THE factor in saving our orca (we had a bumping ship coming, but was pretty far out) said he's saved over 50 freighters. If you're looking to white knight I think a marauder to perform mach bumping is ideal. Fit it for max speed and max tank and go for it. I would imagine if you really dislike freighter ganking that every single mach bump would feel pretty good.
I would think a saved freighter would be gracious w/ a donation. I could even see if you advertised your service you could possibly be hired in advance to post up on a gate and engage (err.... bump) any machs before they could get the freighter into a bad spot.
The kronos pilot seemed to be having a good time and he was very effective. To be fair though, bring a webber and don't just totally depend on a random to save your bacon. |
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
2105
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Posted - 2016.02.02 18:42:35 -
[630] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:Giaus Felix wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:Dear anti-gankers
Maybe you should learn to play with the current rules of the game before you ask for more changes that will backfire in your face anyway.
:effort: So the white knight in the kronos on the Niarja gate that was pretty much THE factor in saving our orca (we had a bumping ship coming, but was pretty far out) said he's saved over 50 freighters. If you're looking to white knight I think a marauder to perform mach bumping is ideal. Fit it for max speed and max tank and go for it. I would imagine if you really dislike freighter ganking that every single mach bump would feel pretty good. I would think a saved freighter would be gracious w/ a donation. I could even see if you advertised your service you could possibly be hired in advance to post up on a gate and engage (err.... bump) any machs before they could get the freighter into a bad spot. The kronos pilot seemed to be having a good time and he was very effective. To be fair though, bring a webber and don't just totally depend on a random to save your bacon. Perfect! He can show OP and his friends how to actually play the game so they can stop crying on the forums and we can close the thread.
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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