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bigbud skunkafella
Not The Usual Suspects
3
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Posted - 2016.02.02 21:49:06 -
[661] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:bigbud skunkafella wrote:I'm sorry, i must have been imagining all those nights in uedama where codes bumpers just stacked up bumped freighters for the slaughter for hours at a time i guess. No one is saying you've imagined anything. Quote:i've got another proposal, seeing how ganking just got a HUGE buff with the wreck hp boost, how about making shooting wrecks a suspect level offence rather than a criminal offence in hi-sec. Hahaha. So you think it is unfair that gankers can steal someone else's possessions, but it should be ok for antigankers to pop it so the gank victim can never recover any of it under any circumstances? Classic. On the one hand, gankers/looters should be easy to shoot so they can't steal it, but you should be able to shoot it easily.
with a 15000 hp wreck which i believe is the proposed number i don't see how popping it will be easy ..
please, where have i stated that it's unfair that gankers can steal loot? popping wrecks was an effective tool for ag to deprive crims of their ill gotten gains, taking that away is a HUGE buff for gankers, whatever way you try to spin it. wrecks now are pretty much guaranteed (hmm , that word again ) to survive for looting in hisec , unless you're going to suggest that ag pull concord + waste 2 nados b4 wreck gets looted....
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bigbud skunkafella
Not The Usual Suspects
3
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Posted - 2016.02.02 21:52:42 -
[662] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:bigbud skunkafella wrote:I'm sorry, i must have been imagining all those nights in uedama where codes bumpers just stacked up bumped freighters for the slaughter for hours at a time i guess.
Just because no one bothered to do anything about it, doesn't mean nothing could have been done. An accurate statement would be: "I've seen freighters getting bumped for hours, I could have done something, but I didn't." Some white knight.
you're ASSuming that all the hsm and ag fleets do is sit and observe freighters getting bumped here aren't you?
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
44170
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Posted - 2016.02.02 21:55:19 -
[663] - Quote
bigbud skunkafella wrote:please, where have i stated that it's unfair that gankers can steal loot? Go and look at the posts in this thread about the problem of looting.
Not necessarily you specifically. Using you in the collective sense of antigankers in general.
That the wreck can be looted with an alt and the DST/Freighter remains unflagged, or that the catalysts loot the wreck before being CONCORDed is part of what this whole thread is about.
Wanting to have no consequence for shooting the gankers/bumpers/looters, but wanting them to have additional consequences above what the mechanics currently involve.
Just bite the bullet and shoot the wreck if that is the desired course of action.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4575
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Posted - 2016.02.02 21:56:54 -
[664] - Quote
bigbud skunkafella wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:bigbud skunkafella wrote:I'm sorry, i must have been imagining all those nights in uedama where codes bumpers just stacked up bumped freighters for the slaughter for hours at a time i guess.
Just because no one bothered to do anything about it, doesn't mean nothing could have been done. An accurate statement would be: "I've seen freighters getting bumped for hours, I could have done something, but I didn't." Some white knight. you're ASSuming that all the hsm and ag fleets do is sit and observe freighters getting bumped here aren't you?
No, I'm assuming you simply won't gank the bumping ship. And in that assumption I feel pretty confident.
In fact, you guys might actually be prolonging the freighter pilots time spent being bumped.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
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bigbud skunkafella
Not The Usual Suspects
3
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Posted - 2016.02.02 21:58:32 -
[665] - Quote
btw, has anyone here got a link to a thread discussing the pros and cons off increasing wreck hps ? |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4575
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Posted - 2016.02.02 21:58:41 -
[666] - Quote
bigbud skunkafella wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:bigbud skunkafella wrote:I'm sorry, i must have been imagining all those nights in uedama where codes bumpers just stacked up bumped freighters for the slaughter for hours at a time i guess. No one is saying you've imagined anything. Quote:i've got another proposal, seeing how ganking just got a HUGE buff with the wreck hp boost, how about making shooting wrecks a suspect level offence rather than a criminal offence in hi-sec. Hahaha. So you think it is unfair that gankers can steal someone else's possessions, but it should be ok for antigankers to pop it so the gank victim can never recover any of it under any circumstances? Classic. On the one hand, gankers/looters should be easy to shoot so they can't steal it, but you should be able to shoot it easily. with a 15000 hp wreck which i believe is the proposed number i don't see how popping it will be easy .. please, where have i stated that it's unfair that gankers can steal loot? popping wrecks was an effective tool for ag to deprive crims of their ill gotten gains, taking that away is a HUGE buff for gankers, whatever way you try to spin it. wrecks now are pretty much guaranteed (hmm , that word again ) to survive for looting in hisec , unless you're going to suggest that ag pull concord + waste 2 nados b4 wreck gets looted....
If only you'd wasted those tornadoes on the bumping ship there would be no wreck.
Edit:
Translation of that second paragraph:
I never said it was unfair to increase a wreck's HP, but let me tell you why it is unfair.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
44170
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Posted - 2016.02.02 22:00:44 -
[667] - Quote
bigbud skunkafella wrote:btw, has anyone here got a link to a thread discussing the pros and cons off increasing wreck hps ? The original F&I thread is here on the front page of this forum:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=431120&find=unread
The Upcoming Features thread is stickied in the CCP forum:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=467351&find=unread
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bigbud skunkafella
Not The Usual Suspects
3
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Posted - 2016.02.02 22:01:41 -
[668] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:bigbud skunkafella wrote:please, where have i stated that it's unfair that gankers can steal loot? Go and look at the posts in this thread about the problem of looting. Not necessarily you specifically. Using you in the collective sense of antigankers in general. My poor wording there. It could have been clearer what I meant with different phrasing. That the wreck can be looted with an alt and the DST/Freighter remains unflagged, or that the catalysts loot the wreck before being CONCORDed is part of what this whole thread is about. Wanting to have no consequence for shooting the gankers/bumpers/looters, but wanting them to have additional consequences above what the mechanics currently involve. 15K HP with 0 resists is not that difficult to chew through. The gankers kill ships with 500K HP and resists in 7-15 seconds odd. Just bite the bullet and shoot the wreck if that is the desired course of action.
with concord on site and limited time to shoot the wreck, i'd like to see u pop one successfully . perhaps you'd be prepared to give me a demonstration one day.
i'm not what you call typical ag. i and my corp have made 10s if not 100s of billions of isk from hunting and stealing from gankers over the years. the more hisec ganking that goes on, the more contect/isk /fun i get .
i personally would hate to see ganking getting nerfed to oblivion , but imo bumping mechanics in their current form are in need of adjustment, whether it's by giving a freighter limited use mjd or some other way. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
44172
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Posted - 2016.02.02 22:08:22 -
[669] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:No, I'm assuming you simply won't gank the bumping ship. And in that assumption I feel pretty confident It's a pretty safe assumption.
Not a single bumping Machariel has been ganked by antigankers in the first 20 pages of the zkill lossmails:
https://zkillboard.com/ship/17738/losses/
So in the last 1000 Machariel deaths, not one bumping Mach from what I can see has been ganked to save a ship from being bumped.
The highsec Mach losses have been mostly legal targets (wardecs and killright activation) and there are a couple of ganks of shiny Machs, but no bumping Machs.
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bigbud skunkafella
Not The Usual Suspects
3
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Posted - 2016.02.02 22:11:24 -
[670] - Quote
i've been away from eve for several months, before that i was in fw for several months so haven't had the opportunity to gank machs unfortunately, tho others in hsm have been doing a reasonable job on occasion. |
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
44172
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Posted - 2016.02.02 22:11:38 -
[671] - Quote
bigbud skunkafella wrote:with concord on site and limited time to shoot the wreck, i'd like to see u pop one successfully . perhaps you'd be prepared to give me a demonstration one day. I don't play in highsec on Scip and I'm not interested in popping wrecks in highsec.
So, no I don't personally have any particular desire to demonstrate popping a wreck in highsec. I'd rather take care of doing the things I do in the game and not ask CCP to make the game easier for me.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
16147
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Posted - 2016.02.02 22:11:55 -
[672] - Quote
By the way, it's not much of an assumption to say that anti ganking just sits by and wrings their hands instead of doing anything.
That's a safe enough bet that they wouldn't take it in Vegas, because they don't like certain losses.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Paranoid Loyd
8348
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Posted - 2016.02.02 22:27:34 -
[673] - Quote
You can throw the "/highsec" parameter on there to narrow it down more. January 2nd is the first one I saw.
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
44172
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Posted - 2016.02.02 23:08:22 -
[674] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:You can throw the "/highsec" parameter on there to narrow it down more. January 2nd is the first one I saw. Thanks. I didn't know you can add the sec status.
Tuitian Bogel in Uedama at 22:28 hrs, yep I clearly missed that one.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4575
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Posted - 2016.02.02 23:22:29 -
[675] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Paranoid Loyd wrote:You can throw the "/highsec" parameter on there to narrow it down more. January 2nd is the first one I saw. Thanks. I didn't know you can add the sec status. Tuitian Bogel in Uedama at 22:28 hrs, yep I clearly missed that one.
I counted 3 dead bumping machs since Nov 22, 2015. So 1 dead bumping mach every 25-30 days.
Heroic efforts indeed.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
25758
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Posted - 2016.02.02 23:31:42 -
[676] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:Paranoid Loyd wrote:You can throw the "/highsec" parameter on there to narrow it down more. January 2nd is the first one I saw. Thanks. I didn't know you can add the sec status. Tuitian Bogel in Uedama at 22:28 hrs, yep I clearly missed that one. I counted 3 dead bumping machs since Nov 22, 2015. So 1 dead bumping mach every 25-30 days. Heroic efforts indeed. It's the scissors technique, it's infallible.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
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baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
17246
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Posted - 2016.02.03 00:02:53 -
[677] - Quote
bigbud skunkafella wrote:
with concord on site and limited time to shoot the wreck, i'd like to see u pop one successfully . perhaps you'd be prepared to give me a demonstration one day.
You use alpha boats.
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3065
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Posted - 2016.02.03 01:14:08 -
[678] - Quote
-If there is a blackbird AND a mach sitting ominously at a gate, your scout should be able to identify it and notify the freighter. The more tools you use, the better your chance of survival.
-Pulling at all straws with the DC comment as if it only happens to the AG crowd. Be sensible.
-Two nados will pop a wreck or something like 5-8 thrashers. Thats not much compared to what gankers have to put together to carry out the gank itself.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Brad Neece
The Scope Gallente Federation
15
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Posted - 2016.02.03 04:20:33 -
[679] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:-If there is a blackbird AND a mach sitting ominously at a gate, your scout should be able to identify it and notify the freighter. The more tools you use, the better your chance of survival.
-Pulling at all straws with the DC comment as if it only happens to the AG crowd. Be sensible.
-Two nados will pop a wreck or something like 5-8 thrashers. Thats not much compared to what gankers have to put together to carry out the gank itself.
So a 5-8 fleet, just to kill a wreck, Nados on grid is a dead giveaway, especially if those flying them are known. So a large fleet by AG standards is now needed to stop looters, when a simple tweak in the transfer mechanic, by not allowing anybody to make a tranfers that results in Suspect TImer(loot is already gone at that point).....Or Even allowing any transfers while Criminal/Suspect is active....If you want to loot in a freighter, you better have friends to protect the decision as you go Suspect. And if friends just happen to be gankers...that's a risk you take.
HPs on wrecks make sense it though....
But should it not be sensible for amount a ship can transfer at any one time be based on its current cargo limit?.....how can you transfer more than you can take in yourself.
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Iain Cariaba
2489
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Posted - 2016.02.03 05:56:39 -
[680] - Quote
Brad Neece wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:-If there is a blackbird AND a mach sitting ominously at a gate, your scout should be able to identify it and notify the freighter. The more tools you use, the better your chance of survival.
-Pulling at all straws with the DC comment as if it only happens to the AG crowd. Be sensible.
-Two nados will pop a wreck or something like 5-8 thrashers. Thats not much compared to what gankers have to put together to carry out the gank itself.
So a 5-8 fleet, just to kill a wreck, Nados on grid is a dead giveaway, especially if those flying them are known. So a large fleet by AG standards is now needed to stop looters, when a simple tweak in the transfer mechanic, by not allowing anybody to make a tranfers that results in Suspect TImer(loot is already gone at that point).....Or Even allowing any transfers while Criminal/Suspect is active....If you want to loot in a freighter, you better have friends to protect the decision as you go Suspect. And if friends just happen to be gankers...that's a risk you take. HPs on wrecks make sense it though.... But should it not be sensible for amount a ship can transfer at any one time be based on its current cargo limit?.....how can you transfer more than you can take in yourself. 5-8 is a large fleet? No wonder AG sucks as bad as it does. If you field less than half your opponent's numbers, why should you expect to prevail?
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
I couldn't have said it better.
Hello, Mr Carebear. Would you like some cheese with that whine?
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4579
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Posted - 2016.02.03 06:39:23 -
[681] - Quote
Iain Cariaba wrote:Brad Neece wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:-If there is a blackbird AND a mach sitting ominously at a gate, your scout should be able to identify it and notify the freighter. The more tools you use, the better your chance of survival.
-Pulling at all straws with the DC comment as if it only happens to the AG crowd. Be sensible.
-Two nados will pop a wreck or something like 5-8 thrashers. Thats not much compared to what gankers have to put together to carry out the gank itself.
So a 5-8 fleet, just to kill a wreck, Nados on grid is a dead giveaway, especially if those flying them are known. So a large fleet by AG standards is now needed to stop looters, when a simple tweak in the transfer mechanic, by not allowing anybody to make a tranfers that results in Suspect TImer(loot is already gone at that point).....Or Even allowing any transfers while Criminal/Suspect is active....If you want to loot in a freighter, you better have friends to protect the decision as you go Suspect. And if friends just happen to be gankers...that's a risk you take. HPs on wrecks make sense it though.... But should it not be sensible for amount a ship can transfer at any one time be based on its current cargo limit?.....how can you transfer more than you can take in yourself. 5-8 is a large fleet? No wonder AG sucks as bad as it does. If you field less than half your opponent's numbers, why should you expect to prevail?
Because...?
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3066
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Posted - 2016.02.03 07:32:12 -
[682] - Quote
So nados sitting in wait are obvious, but the bumping mach isnt?
I also wouldn't mind the transfer to fleet hangar be a suspect offense or not possible for criminals to do. But id like to see a nerf to hauling first.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
17248
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Posted - 2016.02.03 09:06:38 -
[683] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:So nados sitting in wait are obvious, but the bumping mach isnt?
I also wouldn't mind the transfer to fleet hangar be a suspect offense or not possible for criminals to do. But id like to see a nerf to hauling first.
If the freighters use the huge/enormous freight containers and/or package the cargo it becomes impossible to pull it through a DST.
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Rhamnousia Nosferatu
Bunnyhopping days
246
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Posted - 2016.02.03 09:43:27 -
[684] - Quote
Iain Cariaba wrote:5-8 is a large fleet? No wonder AG sucks as bad as it does. If you field less than half your opponent's numbers, why should you expect to prevail? Let's use this logic in the case of bumping, pretty please. Unless you field at least three machariels you should not be able to reliably bump a freighter with a webber alt or two. We cool?
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baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
17249
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Posted - 2016.02.03 09:46:25 -
[685] - Quote
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote: Let's use this logic in the case of bumping, pretty please. Unless you field at least three machariels you should not be able to reliably bump a freighter with a webber alt or two. We cool?
We need three times more to gank it. You complaining about getting 5 together is laughable.
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Rhamnousia Nosferatu
Bunnyhopping days
246
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Posted - 2016.02.03 09:55:47 -
[686] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:I counted 3 dead bumping machs since Nov 22, 2015. So 1 dead bumping mach every 25-30 days. Heroic efforts indeed.
Well at least we can see that bumping machs are not really paper thin as some of you guys claimed. Having to throw 3-4 taloses on a mach ain't really trivial.
As for the efforts let's do the math - bumping mach: - no consequences for bumping whatsoever - potential for decent income through loot (calculated risk as well)
Anti-ganker ganking the bumper: - sec status hit - killright to bumper - loss of ship / no insurance - loss of ability to make isk in hisec on the ganker character - fairly low probability of making any isk (IF bumper has faction mwd fit and if it drops)
So, while a few people in AG don't care about sec hits and killrights, your average hisec dweller will not use his main (usually the char capable of flying a properly fit talos) to gank a bumper. Naturally, your reaction will be for him to grow balls and what not, but I just think that claiming that ganking the bumper to be a valid response to bumping is stupid argument v0v. |
Rhamnousia Nosferatu
Bunnyhopping days
246
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Posted - 2016.02.03 09:56:43 -
[687] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote: Let's use this logic in the case of bumping, pretty please. Unless you field at least three machariels you should not be able to reliably bump a freighter with a webber alt or two. We cool?
We need three times more to gank it. You complaining about getting 5 together is laughable. I'm talking about bumping, not ganking. This whole topic is about bumping and looting, don't digress please |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
25763
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Posted - 2016.02.03 10:04:07 -
[688] - Quote
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:baltec1 wrote:Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote: Let's use this logic in the case of bumping, pretty please. Unless you field at least three machariels you should not be able to reliably bump a freighter with a webber alt or two. We cool?
We need three times more to gank it. You complaining about getting 5 together is laughable. I'm talking about bumping, not ganking. This whole topic is about bumping and looting, don't digress please He's not digressing, we can't talk about bumping and looting without involving that which links them together, ganking.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
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Rhamnousia Nosferatu
Bunnyhopping days
246
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Posted - 2016.02.03 10:08:28 -
[689] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:baltec1 wrote:Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote: Let's use this logic in the case of bumping, pretty please. Unless you field at least three machariels you should not be able to reliably bump a freighter with a webber alt or two. We cool?
We need three times more to gank it. You complaining about getting 5 together is laughable. I'm talking about bumping, not ganking. This whole topic is about bumping and looting, don't digress please He's not digressing, we can't talk about bumping and looting without involving that which links them together, ganking.
So what, now we should discuss bumping and safe looting in the light of fact that gankers have to field 15+ characters in catalysts (and characters is there for a reason)? What about ganks when they use Taloses and it takes 7-8 guys to gank a cargo expanded freighter? Are we gonna base our calculations on t1 or t2 fit ships? What about skills? I mean, so many variables come to mind...
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baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
17249
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Posted - 2016.02.03 10:33:24 -
[690] - Quote
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:
So what, now we should discuss bumping and safe looting in the light of fact that gankers have to field 15+ characters in catalysts (and characters is there for a reason)? What about ganks when they use Taloses and it takes 7-8 guys to gank a cargo expanded freighter? Are we gonna base our calculations on t1 or t2 fit ships? What about skills? I mean, so many variables come to mind...
Lets look at the latest Miniluv kill.
24 pilots on the gank, 2 in bumping ships, 1 hauler, 2 scouts.
29 pilots in that fleet to get a successful kill.
You are complaining of getting 5 together.
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