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Estella Osoka
Perkone Caldari State
1017
|
Posted - 2016.01.30 22:05:11 -
[31] - Quote
Masao Kurata wrote:Heiluri wrote:Do we really want to give all those ships 25% agility bonus though?(Which they would get since that skill would be required to fly them) I think you mean "do we really want to give all those ships a 20% penalty to their base agility?" (The answer imo is hell no.)
What are you smoking? -5% to agility per level. This means it lowers your align time, because it is lowering your inertia modifier.
See: Acceleration
and See: Aligning |
Masao Kurata
Perkone Caldari State
318
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Posted - 2016.02.01 03:55:33 -
[32] - Quote
Estella Osoka wrote:What are you smoking? -5% to agility per level. This means it lowers your align time, because it is lowering your inertia modifier.
Yes, and because of that they need to reduce the base agility by 20% to avoid buffing the ships. |
Michael Weaver
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
5
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Posted - 2016.02.01 08:30:17 -
[33] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Question why is the intended time sink an issue?
I think Gadget Helmsdottir summarized it nicely few posts back.
The problem with this skill is that you either don't need it at all, or you need to have it at level 5. There is nothing in between. You are no closer to flying capital ships at level 4 than you are at level 0 (except for time spent training to level 4).
The description says 5% bonus per level, but in reality you either get 0% and can't fly cap ships anyway, or you want to fly them , have to get level 5 and you get 25% bonus. |
Morrigan LeSante
Senex Legio The OSS
1139
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Posted - 2016.02.01 08:38:06 -
[34] - Quote
If you're sore about this, wait until you hit JDC. |
Michael Weaver
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
5
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Posted - 2016.02.01 09:06:15 -
[35] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:If you're sore about this, wait until you hit JDC. Do you mean Jump Drive Calibration , the one that increases jump distance by 20% ? Yeah, I know it's PITA to train to level 5, but unlike ASC , there are uses for levels 1-4.
This thread is not about time needed to train the skill, it's about the reason why you have to spend that time. ASC is currently self-serving, you only have to train it so you have it at level 5. |
Morrigan LeSante
Senex Legio The OSS
1139
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Posted - 2016.02.01 09:18:21 -
[36] - Quote
There are uses on paper. Try doing a move op with it not at V.
The reason why you have to spend that time, is because all ships are walled behind an SP level. |
Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
116
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Posted - 2016.02.01 14:19:52 -
[37] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:There are uses on paper. Try doing a move op with it not at V.
That's the point, Morrigan. With any other skill, you CAN try. Try and fail to keep up, sure. Not be optimal, absolutely. But, a pilot can make use of the skill at lower levels than V, and some have. Said pilot has multiple options open to her concerning JDC, for ASC, there is just yes/no.
Also, to reiterate my stance, I personally have no qualms with the amount of time it takes to train ASC to V. I understand why the skill was changed. It was done to roughly keep the same amount of time to train into a Capital ship after other changes were made to sub-Cap command skills.
However, with the new Cap changes being mixed about, now is the perfect time to bring this skill in line with all others. I would have them still keep the same amount of time to train into Caps, but pilots need the opportunity to decide what level to train ASC. Levels 1-4 should give some benefit, not just level 5.
--Gadget
Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist
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Tiddle Jr
Brutor tribe Minmatar Republic
769
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Posted - 2016.02.01 14:24:10 -
[38] - Quote
Why do i need to train Industry to lvl 5 to fly a ship? |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2545
|
Posted - 2016.02.01 17:21:19 -
[39] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Question why is the intended time sink an issue?
I don't really mind it but I still think it's odd that you train a skill that gives a bonus to a bunch of ship you can't fly. It's like if the afterburner skill at the same bonus on it but all AB would require it to be at V to use. Thanks for reducing the cap cost of using while I could not use it at all I guess...
Again, I don't mind the SP investment required to fly a cap ship but I think skills that gives bonus to nothing you can use should be re-though. |
Estella Osoka
Perkone Caldari State
1018
|
Posted - 2016.02.01 17:43:26 -
[40] - Quote
Michael Weaver wrote:Morrigan LeSante wrote:If you're sore about this, wait until you hit JDC. Do you mean Jump Drive Calibration , the one that increases jump distance by 20% ? Yeah, I know it's PITA to train to level 5, but unlike ASC , there are uses for levels 1-4. This thread is not about time needed to train the skill, it's about the reason why you have to spend that time. ASC is currently self-serving, you only have to train it so you have it at level 5.
So you are saying a 5% increase at ASC 1, 10% increase at ASC 2, 15% increase at ASC 3, etc; provides no bonus?
As a cap pilot, I do not understand why you wouldn't want this skill at 5.
However, I do see the problem.
Skill Tree for a Freighter: + Advanced Spaceship Command I - Spaceship Command V + Racial Freighter I - Advanced Spaceship Command V +Racial Industrial III - Spaceship Command III
Skill Tree for a Jump Freighter + Racial Freighter IV - Advanced Spaceship Command V - Spaceship Command V +Racial Industrial III - Spaceship Command III + Jump Freighters I - Industry V - Advanced Spaceship Command IV + Jump Drive Calibration I - Jump Drive Operation 5 - Navigation V - Warp Drive Operation V - Navigation I - Science V
It used to be, all you need for a Freighter was ASC I. This had to have been changed when they lowered the requirements to fly capitals ships. |
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2548
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Posted - 2016.02.01 20:30:07 -
[41] - Quote
Estella Osoka wrote:
So you are saying a 5% increase at ASC 1, 10% increase at ASC 2, 15% increase at ASC 3, etc; provides no bonus?
As a cap pilot, I do not understand why you wouldn't want this skill at 5.
You want it at V but under the new plan, training it gives nothing at all until you reach V.
Train to I > No bonus because you can't fly any affected ships Train to II > No affected ships can be flown Train to III > Same as above Train to IV > Why am I training this again? Train to V > OMG, my ship is 25% more agile than nothing because I just finally became able to train for one.
AWU for example is the "SP wall" for marauder but you get benefit from every rank as soon as you reach rank I because it affect other things. ASC does not ahve that. That is the reason I think it's not perfectly designed.
It also is NOT all that important tho since at least it's not a dead-end skill with no effect at all on your future ship. |
Mandar Amelana
Black Flag Enterprises Galactic Conundrum Alliance
10
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Posted - 2016.02.01 20:39:50 -
[42] - Quote
Heiluri wrote: Do we really want to give all those ships 25% agility bonus though?(Which they would get since that skill would be required to fly them)
AF's would be the only one I'd be ok with (even then that's only a small portion of the , but I can't imagine what fighting a bunch of 25% agi boosted T3 cruisers would be like, and how it might affect the large fleet combat meta.
I do like the original concept's goal to make Lv's I-IV useful, that would require serious balancing. Not worth it.
In all honesty, I get the principle of being frustrated that Lv's I-IV are basically useless until you finish V, but why not make it so that racial freighter only needs Lv. III and Jump Freighter skill requires Lv. 5? That seems to the be the easier fix, right?
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Admiral Icarus Raidriar
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2016.02.02 17:33:56 -
[43] - Quote
Personally, I find +5% Agility fairly useful.
Valkyrie VII Administrator // Halo // Destiny //
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Estella Osoka
Perkone Caldari State
1021
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Posted - 2016.02.02 21:07:46 -
[44] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Estella Osoka wrote:
So you are saying a 5% increase at ASC 1, 10% increase at ASC 2, 15% increase at ASC 3, etc; provides no bonus?
As a cap pilot, I do not understand why you wouldn't want this skill at 5.
You want it at V but under the new plan, training it gives nothing at all until you reach V. Train to I > No bonus because you can't fly any affected ships Train to II > No affected ships can be flown Train to III > Same as above Train to IV > Why am I training this again? Train to V > OMG, my ship is 25% more agile than nothing because I just finally became able to train for one. AWU for example is the "SP wall" for marauder but you get benefit from every rank as soon as you reach rank I because it affect other things. ASC does not ahve that. That is the reason I think it's not perfectly designed. It also is NOT all that important tho since at least it's not a dead-end skill with no effect at all on your future ship.
Yeah, but I could have sworn in the past, the skill train for a freighter didn't need ASC at 5. It just needed it at 1. |
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1788
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Posted - 2016.02.02 21:24:43 -
[45] - Quote
Estella Osoka wrote:You think 5% agility per level provides nothing? What are you smoking?
Except, 100% of the ships to which it provides that benefit require the skill at level 5. If they built the agility bonus into the hulls and still required the skill at 5 without it actually doing anything, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.
There are no actual decisions around the skill: Either you train it to 5 for cap ships, or you don't train it at all. If you have the skill at 4, it provides a 20% bonus that you can't actually use on anything, which is generally bad design.
OP has a valid point. I don't know that removing the skill is necessarily the correct remediation, but there's certainly cause to fix the binary nature of the current state of the skill.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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Sephiroth Clone VII
Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
163
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Posted - 2016.02.03 20:40:49 -
[46] - Quote
That's a good point that the bonus is not used until level 5, advanced spaceship command should be just be required at one for a normal cap ship, and 5 for a titan.
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Estella Osoka
Perkone Caldari State
1022
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Posted - 2016.02.03 20:50:33 -
[47] - Quote
Freighters used to require ASC 1 only. It was changed when CCP made it more easy for people to train for the capital ships. It was changed because it was determined that it would make the train time for a freighter too quick and too easy. |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
2259
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Posted - 2016.02.03 21:49:11 -
[48] - Quote
Estella Osoka wrote:Freighters used to require ASC 1 only. It was changed when CCP made it more easy for people to train for the capital ships. It was changed because it was determined that it would make the train time for a freighter too quick and too easy.
This is why things are the way they are.
As for what we could do with the skill... Just make it also affects Battleships. Then nerf Battleships agility by 10%.
CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1889
|
Posted - 2016.02.04 03:22:12 -
[49] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:Estella Osoka wrote:Freighters used to require ASC 1 only. It was changed when CCP made it more easy for people to train for the capital ships. It was changed because it was determined that it would make the train time for a freighter too quick and too easy. This is why things are the way they are. As for what we could do with the skill... Just make it also affects Battleships. Then nerf Battleships agility by 10%. What did battleships ever do to you?
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Michael Weaver
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
7
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Posted - 2016.02.08 10:02:19 -
[50] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:As for what we could do with the skill... Just make it also affects Battleships. Then nerf Battleships agility by 10%.
Why would you tie a cap-ship skill to one sub-cap hull type? That would create even bigger mess than it is now
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2566
|
Posted - 2016.02.08 14:27:15 -
[51] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:FT Diomedes wrote:Estella Osoka wrote:Freighters used to require ASC 1 only. It was changed when CCP made it more easy for people to train for the capital ships. It was changed because it was determined that it would make the train time for a freighter too quick and too easy. This is why things are the way they are. As for what we could do with the skill... Just make it also affects Battleships. Then nerf Battleships agility by 10%. What did battleships ever do to you?
That's a buff to battleship if you train the skill... |
penifSMASH
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
459
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Posted - 2016.02.08 15:26:01 -
[52] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Estella Osoka wrote:
So you are saying a 5% increase at ASC 1, 10% increase at ASC 2, 15% increase at ASC 3, etc; provides no bonus?
As a cap pilot, I do not understand why you wouldn't want this skill at 5.
You want it at V but under the new plan, training it gives nothing at all until you reach V. Train to I > No bonus because you can't fly any affected ships Train to II > No affected ships can be flown Train to III > Same as above Train to IV > Why am I training this again? Train to V > OMG, my ship is 25% more agile than nothing because I just finally became able to train for one. AWU for example is the "SP wall" for marauder but you get benefit from every rank as soon as you reach rank I because it affect other things. ASC does not ahve that. That is the reason I think it's not perfectly designed. It also is NOT all that important tho since at least it's not a dead-end skill with no effect at all on your future ship.
The O P is right and this post explains it well. After the skill preqreq change of Freighters needing ASC 5, the skill was made pointless. |
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