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Imechal Ravpeim
International Multi-Player Consortium Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.01.30 07:34:00 -
[1]
(Just lemme have fun with it, then flame me :P)
The playerbase is increasing, the size of the universe is decreasing. I am going to attempt to foretell all I can from one of EVE's possible futures.
Before warp to 0 you had to warp 15km from a gate, then fly 12km to jump. Most people had instas. Hundreds or thousands of them. This is the reason warp to 0 came to be. However... as many can already see, there is still occasional lag. Most noteably on weekends during peak time. Though it's not anybody's fault. EVE's playerbase is just getting too big. Too many players causes a lot of stress on the server. Warp to 0 essentially made the galaxy smaller and thus brought them closer together. This is putting a strain on the cluser and it's nodes. It has to perform much more checks and calculations more frequently with people jumping from one node to the next all the time. The only way that I can see to make this easier hardware-wise would be to upgrade or add more. There's a limit to how much you can simply add until it stops becoming effective, and once that point is reached there is little you can do except upgrade it. The problem as I see it is that EVE could be growing too fast and these upgrades may not be readily available or cost efficient for CCP. Until then they'll either need to find a fix in the software, or risk losing customers. Though, the fix that I forsee will be the last resort anyway, as that would probably also anger some players and cause them to leave... but Hopefully not more than the lag would. There will be a second dark age in EVE(though hopefully less than 10,000 years ), one only the most dedicated and strong-willed will see through.
Other fixes I'm seeing to go with this are several that may effect gameplay are-- 1) A new module that resists webbing. Travel may still be safe if you can mwd to the gate in a matter of seconds, then align quickly and warp again, or mwd out of a bubble then warp. With this to go along-side istabs and wcs a ship will be faily safe to travel, so long as that is their only intent. 2) The continued use of no bookmarks within so many KM of a gate. This was a cause for lag before, it would be again. 3) Another propulsion module, similiar to a mwd. Not quite a mwd however, yet still providing a large velocity modifier. This would probably come at an even higher cost. Not the increased sig radius or even the cap penalty. But more like a cloak's. That is, the inability to activate any modules while this is active. 4) A new type of ship. Something like a t2 shuttle. It could have pleanty of low slots for speed mods, a small cargo bay for light hauling, and a nearly instant align speed. Perhaps it could even use some of those t1 frig models without a t2 version. Amarr pilots will rejoice when their's is in most demand for it's 7 low slots compared to the caldari's 4. \o/
With these changes and even at the continued removal of instas, travel can still be safe. It's hard to catch a fast, (somewhat)unwebbable, stabbed ship with an average sig radius after all.
There's my doomsday preach anyway. I'm in NO way suggesting anything, I like the warp to 0. Like I said, fun little toy . But I have a hard time beliving the hardware will simply be able to keep up with growth at this rate. I just think something will have to be done someday, and after an hour of thinking and writing this post, this is what I came up with.
Now you can call me a dumbass.
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king jks
New Age Solutions
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Posted - 2007.01.30 07:46:00 -
[2]
There's already a such thing as a T2 shuttle... its called the Executioner/Atron/Slasher/Condor, depending on your flavor of choice. Load a MWD, cap battery II, and 2 istabs on it and weeeeee. ------------------------ Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds. -Albert Einstein |
Pierre Jacquemein
A Place for Valen Serenus Letum
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Posted - 2007.01.30 07:53:00 -
[3]
I haven't really noticed much lag, even during peak times. But that may be because I've been spending a lot of time in 0.0 lately. I haven't been playing Eve for too long, but once I got an Enyo I tried ratting in 0.0 and loved it. I doubt that my case is unique. The advent of warp to 0km will decrease server load by spreading players out more by making 0.0 much more accessible to solo players and noobs (of which I am both).
Besides, I thought dev team stated that there was noticably less strain on the servers under the new system. Am I wrong?
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Imechal Ravpeim
International Multi-Player Consortium Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.01.30 07:59:00 -
[4]
I'm not really sure what the devs think or know about the current lag issues... I just know that every sunday for the last month the general discussion is filled it lag-related whines once the server breaks the 30k mark.
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Phelan Lore
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.01.30 08:53:00 -
[5]
Lag seems much better after revelations than it did before.
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Christina Bamar
Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2007.01.30 09:21:00 -
[6]
You can't really keep people from making bookmarks near gates. You could create an insta up to 100km away from the gate, and if you didn't allow people to make BMs within 100km of a gate you'd destroy a lot of key tactical bookmarks which have nothing to do with traveling and everything to do with pvp. The current solution is fine, no need to change it.
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Sokratesz
Guardians of Hell's Gate Tactical Narcotics Team
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Posted - 2007.01.30 09:23:00 -
[7]
As long as we don't form fleets 50+, 0.0 is lag free :)
And the playerbase indeed is growing...time to remove the sell of GTC and take harsher measures against macro-miners.
voilß, fixed!
Basilisk Fitting Link |
Burnharder
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Posted - 2007.01.30 09:28:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Imechal Ravpeim Warp to 0 essentially made the galaxy smaller and thus brought them closer together. This is putting a strain on the cluster and it's nodes.
Well, I won't call you a dumbass, but I will point out the fact you have made a serious error above. WTZ hasn't made the galaxy physically smaller, it has made it logically smaller. This means it's now easier to spread out, not more difficult.
The basic problem is that people like to congregate in the same places. It's human nature - and game mechanics don't prevent it. In fact if anything they encourage it.
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE FREGE Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.30 09:39:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Christina Bamar You can't really keep people from making bookmarks near gates. You could create an insta up to 100km away from the gate, and if you didn't allow people to make BMs within 100km of a gate you'd destroy a lot of key tactical bookmarks which have nothing to do with traveling and everything to do with pvp. The current solution is fine, no need to change it.
You can.. its very simple in fact. Make every warp have an imprecision of 15km radius sphere. So doesn't matter where you put your bookmar you will always or at least 999/1000 attempts , land at 15 km form gate.
I would love if wtz was removed. It spoiled a lot of the bestr things in game, like the chase and the local tactical wartfare. Now with warp to zero, borders means nothing.
If brute force doesn't solve your problem.. then you are not using enough!! |
Bal' Hed
Caldari Brotherhood of Wolves Astral Wolves
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Posted - 2007.01.30 09:51:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
...I would love if wtz was removed. It spoiled a lot of the bestr things in game, like the chase and the local tactical wartfare. Now with warp to zero, borders means nothing.
First of all, borders never meant anyhting to begin with, unless you were using bubbles, like a good boy.
Secondly, warp to 0 has managed a tremendous improvement in the GENERAL playability in eve. I have sent dozens of trial accounts to friends, and most quit playing citing one of two things: intricacy of gameplay, or the time it takes to travel only a few jumps. I know u could train up to use MWD's, but for someone just starting ut, having to spend that much sp just to get where u want to go is rediculous.
Im not a fan of the idea that warp to 0km breaks anything about pvp in eve. camp your gate right, and it doesnt matter. If you can't camp it correctly, then dont bother. go fight veldspar.
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Chi Prime
Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.01.30 09:53:00 -
[11]
The sky is falling!
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE FREGE Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.30 10:11:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Bal' Hed
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
...I would love if wtz was removed. It spoiled a lot of the bestr things in game, like the chase and the local tactical wartfare. Now with warp to zero, borders means nothing.
First of all, borders never meant anyhting to begin with, unless you were using bubbles, like a good boy.
Secondly, warp to 0 has managed a tremendous improvement in the GENERAL playability in eve. I have sent dozens of trial accounts to friends, and most quit playing citing one of two things: intricacy of gameplay, or the time it takes to travel only a few jumps. I know u could train up to use MWD's, but for someone just starting ut, having to spend that much sp just to get where u want to go is rediculous.
Im not a fan of the idea that warp to 0km breaks anything about pvp in eve. camp your gate right, and it doesnt matter. If you can't camp it correctly, then dont bother. go fight veldspar.
if you really think that camping is the onbly way pvp shoul dbe, or that camping a gate is more fun for a pirate then jumping on a belt then trying to catch the prey while it runs to gate...
well there are tastes for everything, but you really don't have idea on how much you are missing.
If brute force doesn't solve your problem.. then you are not using enough!! |
Bal' Hed
Caldari Brotherhood of Wolves Astral Wolves
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Posted - 2007.01.30 10:36:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Originally by: Bal' Hed
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
...I would love if wtz was removed. It spoiled a lot of the bestr things in game, like the chase and the local tactical wartfare. Now with warp to zero, borders means nothing.
First of all, borders never meant anyhting to begin with, unless you were using bubbles, like a good boy.
Secondly, warp to 0 has managed a tremendous improvement in the GENERAL playability in eve. I have sent dozens of trial accounts to friends, and most quit playing citing one of two things: intricacy of gameplay, or the time it takes to travel only a few jumps. I know u could train up to use MWD's, but for someone just starting ut, having to spend that much sp just to get where u want to go is rediculous.
Im not a fan of the idea that warp to 0km breaks anything about pvp in eve. camp your gate right, and it doesnt matter. If you can't camp it correctly, then dont bother. go fight veldspar.
if you really think that camping is the onbly way pvp shoul dbe, or that camping a gate is more fun for a pirate then jumping on a belt then trying to catch the prey while it runs to gate...
well there are tastes for everything, but you really don't have idea on how much you are missing.
I personally hate gate camping, but it is the most effective means of border control that i can think of. As for hunting npc'ers and miners, well, there isn't any honor in that, so it's not very fun for me. I prefer to hunt war targets in emp, or chase enemies on their way to and from their gangs and camps. Losec pirates are fun too. they can put up a good fight, and you always know where to find them.
From what I have seen of devs and blogs and press releases, CCP has focused on making pvp TEAM based, not solo. In that respect, a decent team of 3 or 4 should be able to catch a fleeing target, maybe on the other side of a gate... I've been caught that way more than once since wtz. tactics like probing and chasing prey from ss's to gankers aren't unheard of either. Besides, if targets have a reasonable chance to fly away, they might not be so quick to logoffski as soon as you pop into a system, and that is better for pirates too.
Either way, whether we like it or not, the game evolved, and so must we. Im hoping for new stes of pvp and tackling mods in the future.
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.01.30 10:47:00 -
[14]
I look forward to the day where warp to zero goes in the bin. Not sure it'll ever happen, because it will make lots of people cry, but I still think EVE would have been better if _everyone_ had to travel that 15km to the gate (and yes, that also means no instas).
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE FREGE Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.30 10:56:00 -
[15]
Originally by: James Lyrus I look forward to the day where warp to zero goes in the bin. Not sure it'll ever happen, because it will make lots of people cry, but I still think EVE would have been better if _everyone_ had to travel that 15km to the gate (and yes, that also means no instas).
agree. In fact something that I would like a lo t is simply add a 15 km warp inprecision, keep the warp to zero. And make a skill to diminish that and have different sghips have different precision on warping. So for example haulers can be very precise and move fast, while battleships would not be able to do it.
It would add a very interesting set of possibilities to the game.
If brute force doesn't solve your problem.. then you are not using enough!! |
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.01.30 11:02:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Originally by: James Lyrus I look forward to the day where warp to zero goes in the bin. Not sure it'll ever happen, because it will make lots of people cry, but I still think EVE would have been better if _everyone_ had to travel that 15km to the gate (and yes, that also means no instas).
agree. In fact something that I would like a lo t is simply add a 15 km warp inprecision, keep the warp to zero. And make a skill to diminish that and have different sghips have different precision on warping. So for example haulers can be very precise and move fast, while battleships would not be able to do it.
It would add a very interesting set of possibilities to the game.
Any 'warp precision' skill becomes a real 'must have' though. Personally I feel this balances out somewhat by relative speeds under MWD/AB anyway.
About the only ship I see as being a problem, is freighters, and that's primarily because a 0.0 freighter run would take _forever_. (Exposure is one thing, 5 minutes per jump on a 30 jump trip which can't be done AFK, on the other hand, is just horrible)
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doctorstupid2
Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2007.01.30 11:44:00 -
[17]
I've said this once, I'll say it again.
NOTHING would make me happier in game than bringing back the warp to within 15km, but have it drop you somewhere 15km off gate, in a random direction. You might be 15km on the opposite side, above, below, etc. Removes bookmarks and reintroduces the penalty for flying a slow ship all in one move. You want to get where you're going fast and not get ganked? fit a MWD. Moving a freighter around? Tough ****, better bring escorts if you're leaving high sec
Any warp skill will immediately be trained by everyone to 4 if not 5, putting everyone right where they are now. A new skill isn't changing anything but causing some irritation for about a week.
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.01.30 11:54:00 -
[18]
Originally by: doctorstupid2
Any warp skill will immediately be trained by everyone to 4 if not 5, putting everyone right where they are now. A new skill isn't changing anything but causing some irritation for about a week.
Good point, they should make it a rank 16 charisma based skill, just so the people who have good cha can be smug. (or just not bother, and assume everyone will train it :))
Although I do think that that'll mean no 0.0 freighters, not because of the escort problem, but simply because your op will take far too long, and will be generally boring (at least, hopefully ;p), I think that's tolerable, given that most seem to jumpdrive haul into 0.0 anyway.
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LUKEC
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.01.30 11:57:00 -
[19]
Warp to 0 was probably only good thing that kali brought(ok, ok new probing is ok too).
*snip* - Signature removed, email us to know why. -Ivan K
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Brucette
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Posted - 2007.01.30 12:47:00 -
[20]
Originally by: LUKEC Warp to 0 was probably only good thing that kali brought(ok, ok new probing is ok too).
I think you will find Doom more to your liking. This game would be greatly improved by correcting player and design changes (instas, warp-to-0) which have resulted in making combat logistics completely trivial.
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Taipan Gedscho
Taipan Industries
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Posted - 2007.01.30 13:14:00 -
[21]
i normally dont like to do this, but... im stomping my feet, and making a statement, and i expect you all to accept it without any resistance:
warp to zero is a good thing.
on the other hand i can understand that a lot of people really are ****ed, because wtz removed a lot of depth from their game.
and that is a bad thing. eve is all about depth.
BUT!
i can remember quite clearly the devs stated on the fanfest, that we WILL get tools to catch players at (lowsec)gates, even with wtz.
SO PLEASE. hold your horses. calm down. wait a bit. have some faith.
AND FFS STOP WHINING. i want to read interesting stuff on the forums not waaaah-waaaah day in day out. thanks for your time.
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Brucette
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Posted - 2007.01.30 13:23:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Taipan Gedscho
i can remember quite clearly the devs stated on the fanfest, that we WILL get tools to catch players at (lowsec)gates, even with wtz.
Catching people at gates is only part of the problem. The larger issue is that people don't say: "I'm bringing my frig, because there's no time to bring my BS 5 jumps". Making each jump take a real number of minutes would do a lot to reduce BS blobs.
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Har Ganeth
STK Scientific
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Posted - 2007.01.30 13:28:00 -
[23]
Space in the datacentre where the Eve cluster is located is extremely tight these days - I wouldn't be surprised if this was a main reason for their inability to simply add more servers into the cluster (which to be honest, would be pretty easy)....
The issue i imagine is a combination of power at the DC (which won't let them take too much per square foot) and available space.
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Taipan Gedscho
Taipan Industries
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Posted - 2007.01.30 13:31:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Taipan Gedscho on 30/01/2007 13:29:09
Originally by: Brucette
Originally by: Taipan Gedscho
i can remember quite clearly the devs stated on the fanfest, that we WILL get tools to catch players at (lowsec)gates, even with wtz.
Catching people at gates is only part of the problem. The larger issue is that people don't say: "I'm bringing my frig, because there's no time to bring my BS 5 jumps". Making each jump take a real number of minutes would do a lot to reduce BS blobs.
ships still have different acceleration/alignment and warp speeds. your frig is still (alot) faster than your BS.
depth= good. mindless spacewalks for 15km= bad
but i see what you mean. larger forces with more firepower now can move a lot more swiftly.
still, forces with smaller ships are quicker/more agile... but i bet, defending your alliances space is a lot different these days.. even with bubbles...
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DubanFP
Caldari Four Rings Myriad Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.30 14:10:00 -
[25]
and people complain about nano-domi's now. . . Now imagine if they could use a second MWD to escape danger "though not in combat". And they used anti-webifier countermeasures . .. . BADBADBADBAD idea. __________________________ Why babelfish is bad mmm k "which the night do not expect that it calls the primary education before becoming deformed inside" |
Alowishus
OctoberSnow Corp
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Posted - 2007.01.30 14:39:00 -
[26]
When people experience this so called "lag" do they ever take steps such as restarting their PC? One time I was down to 1-2FPS, down from my normal 50-60FPS. I tried relogging, same problem. Restarted my machine and it went away. Not all lag is server side, people.
I will say that the Eve Client seems to have a memory leak and if you open and close multiple clients, and have two or more running at the same time, to log in different chars and what not, you will have major loss of FPS after the 4th or 5th open/log in/close. Restarting fixes this for me.
Originally by: Origin Prior You were gate camping, how lame can you get.
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.01.30 14:43:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Taipan Gedscho Edited by: Taipan Gedscho on 30/01/2007 13:29:09
Originally by: Brucette
Originally by: Taipan Gedscho
i can remember quite clearly the devs stated on the fanfest, that we WILL get tools to catch players at (lowsec)gates, even with wtz.
Catching people at gates is only part of the problem. The larger issue is that people don't say: "I'm bringing my frig, because there's no time to bring my BS 5 jumps". Making each jump take a real number of minutes would do a lot to reduce BS blobs.
ships still have different acceleration/alignment and warp speeds. your frig is still (alot) faster than your BS.
depth= good. mindless spacewalks for 15km= bad
but i see what you mean. larger forces with more firepower now can move a lot more swiftly.
still, forces with smaller ships are quicker/more agile... but i bet, defending your alliances space is a lot different these days.. even with bubbles...
It is. Blobs are up in size, both in numbers and ships involved.
Catching a solo pilot in a relatively small ship takes a significant numeric advantage, otherwise he'll safespot bounce, cloak, and jump haulers all day.
Bait + gank tactics have become virtually required - if you don't engage, your odds of getting killed are fairly minimal.
And a 'dictor is a must have on any fleet op.
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welsh wizard
0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.01.30 14:49:00 -
[28]
A limit on accounts on a particular credit card or to a particular billing address is the obvious solution. While it wouldn't solve it completely (because people can just get more credit cards) it'd certainly slow the rate at which new alts are signed up.
Having said I have faith in CCP and their knowledge at retaining an acceptable balance between profit, current technology and expansion.
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Krulla
Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.01.30 14:58:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon I would love if wtz was removed. It spoiled a lot of the bestr things in game, like the chase and the local tactical wartfare. Now with warp to zero, borders means nothing.
Warp to zero changed nothing but the lag. Everyone had instas for all imporatant areas anyway. Sigs are for noobs. |
Christopher Dalran
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Posted - 2007.01.30 14:59:00 -
[30]
There are 2 different types of lag.
The first type just makes actions take some time to happen, for example you load a new type of ammo and it takes 8 second before you get the message telling you it will take 10 second to reload. Another example would be when you lock a ship and the locking timer expires but it still takes several more seconds before the lock sticks. This is the kind of lag caused either by your own personal internet connection or the games servers.
The second kind of lag is when your game appears to skip and jump about pausing and hanging up for a few second here and there. Alot of time we blame it on too many people being around us. This is not server or internet lag, this is simply your computer being unable to handle it. Add 512mb more ram for about 12 dollars, ram helps alot more than most people are willing to give it credit for. Windows XP actually eats up several hundred ram so you do have signifigantly less than you think.
I've felt that lag has been very good lately, the only places that ever have any problems have been the places plagued by macro: miners,haulers, and now macro mission runners (the hauling missions) like Jita but unless you want to macro yourself there are 100's of better places to be anyway.
I would not expect to see the end to warp to 0, warp to 0 was a great addition to the game and has cleared out all those cruddy bookmarks I had to make. I think if they would just give more of a reason for people to hang out in low sec we would see a drastic decrease to the lag in certain high population High sec areas. I believe they are working very hard at adding in some reasons to be in low sec with the next big Kali patch.
They are also just waiting on the next generation of hardware for be release and fall into an affordable price range before upgrading the servers with new hardware. If you havent noticed there has alwayse been a pattern in eve. The servers run great but people keep buying new accounts and eventually they become overstrained causing a little lag and login/warp ques. Eventually the servers get a massive update and the game shuts down for a day or 2 while they upgrade, everyone gets warned but half the player base still manages to have a skill finish right before downtime and not log in to change it. Servers run great now and the cycle starts over again.
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