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Spatial PIMP
Caldari Galactic Inventors Inc.
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Posted - 2007.01.30 22:38:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Spatial PIMP on 30/01/2007 22:36:13 Before today patch invention: 1 1000 runs bpc ballistic Control System I - free 2 Datacore - Mechanical Engineering - 40-50mil 2 Datacore - Electronic Engineering - 40-50mil 1 Esoteric Data Interface ( 1,5b BPC + 5B to build it ) 1 'Pandemonium' Ballistic Control - 30 mil 1 Installation Guide (Caldari Best Decryptor) - 2mil Total Investment ( except Interface ) = 132mil ---------- Result: 1 x 40 runs Ballistic Control II BPC ( 7/10 Succes Jobs ) - 380 mil Profit: 248mil - building req
After today patch:
1 1000 runs bpc ballistic Control System I - free 2 Datacore - Mechanical Engineering - 40-50mil 2 Datacore - Electronic Engineering - 40-50mil 1 Esoteric Data Interface ( 10 mil BPC + 10mil to build it - this beacouse i just found 5 runs Esoteric data Interface BPCs in 1st Hacking complex and no less than 300 parts for it, including 132 power couplings) 1 'Pandemonium' Ballistic Control - 30 mil 1 Installation Guide (Caldari Best Decryptor) - 2mil Total Investment ( except Interface ) = 132mil ---------- Result: 1 x 14 runs Ballistic Control II BPC ( 7/10 Succes Jobs ) - 133mil Profit: 1 mil - building req (IF i find Datacores at only 25 mil, or IF phandemonium is only 30 mil...IF...)
So...WTF??
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Eton Favre
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Posted - 2007.01.31 05:52:00 -
[2]
have to agree I would love a dev response just when I start to figure it out the go and change everything
before patch Cap recharge I BPC 300 run was yielding 90 run cap IIs
now seems to be yielding 19 runs this is with the decryptor that yields the most runs. Cap recharger IIs price was falling to a reasonable level but don't see how invention will work if @ max runs you are only getting 19 runs
With the price of Datacores and the total randomness of success it is now not worth even inventing them.( one of the most profitable items in eve )
there are now no inventable items because the cost to invent is much more then the bpcs / built items are worth was this a mistake.
I was fine with expanding the drop rate and allowing more people into the invention process. The invention costs were high enough already that it was only worth inventing a few items from the list of items possible, now they are all unprofitable.
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Ruffio Sepico
Minmatar Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2007.01.31 09:20:00 -
[3]
Well I iced invention for a bit because its not worth the effort atm. And now I get to read about the less run result with even the best decryptors. Very worrying indeed.
Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
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Vasiliyan
PAX Interstellar Services
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Posted - 2007.01.31 12:55:00 -
[4]
Datacore price might come down as the drop rate from exploration has allegedly been improved. Do you have to use the best named BCS as a base as well?
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=467789
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Ruffio Sepico
Minmatar Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2007.01.31 13:42:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Vasiliyan Datacore price might come down as the drop rate from exploration has allegedly been improved. Do you have to use the best named BCS as a base as well?
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=467789
To add to chance of success, you need to add best tech1 meta version + the best decrypter. And from OP's post to read, they made changes to you end up with less runs on the inveted bpc than before patch.
Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
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Tharrn
Amarr Epitoth Fleetyards Vigilia Valeria
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Posted - 2007.01.31 15:06:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Tharrn on 31/01/2007 15:07:42 You just have to build the interface once, so you can't actually add that full cost to the production cost.
Edit: actually you didn't
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WrathchildeVOTF
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Posted - 2007.01.31 15:13:00 -
[7]
While you won't have to pay for the data interface for each job, you DO need one for each field you work in.
I would consider it a "buy-in" cost, just like your chip money at the poker table. But in this case, it's 6 billion isk just to sit down at the table.
Kinda steep.
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Spatial PIMP
Caldari Galactic Inventors Inc.
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Posted - 2007.01.31 16:09:00 -
[8]
LOL guys i din't say i builded my Interface twice. I say now it cost is extremelly low, but in the end i see i do invention for almost nothing. I agree maybe 40-90 runs was a litlle bit to much for an inventors ( in comparation with a t2 bpo owner ) but 14 runs din't cover the cost of the datacores, this is the problem.
The price of datacore will drop only if u can buy more from agents at a less RP Cost and in the exploration sites are dropped more than 2-10 per complex.
My problem is the runs u get, that's all. 14-19 runs is to low. And yeah u will say i must work for my Dtacores and don;t buy them. But why should i use them on invention ( if i procure them my self ) and not sell them at 10-35mil on market in Jita? Why should i bother wait hours to invent, days to build the t2 item, another days to sell them?
Again the problem are 2: Only 14-19 runs is low, and 500Rp per datacore or 2-10 in a hacking plex is also to low.
My opinion is someting like 50 runs with the max runs decryptor ( litlle chance ) and 20-30 runs with the best decryptor.
I'm not talking about chances, the t1 item with hight ML or something else, everithing is cool except runs and datacores.
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Eton Favre
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Posted - 2007.01.31 16:26:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Eton Favre on 31/01/2007 16:23:44 interfaces will be common now judging from the drop rates discussed (8 runs per exploration site) Parts will still be difficult to obtain due to the number of new interfaces for a while
The problem is the low runs vs the cost of running the jobs. with datacore costs at 20Mil average you are talking 100mil per attempt. 80 mil in datcores 20 mil for decryptors / built items. If you get a 40 run bpc you were making some money(to help pay for the interface that you spend a load of isk building) if you got a 90 run every few times you were making money
@ under 20 runs you are barely paying for that attempt if it succeeded every time that would be fine but its not so every invention attempt is costing more money then you can make
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Ruffio Sepico
Minmatar Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2007.01.31 17:20:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Spatial PIMP
My problem is the runs u get, that's all. 14-19 runs is to low. And yeah u will say i must work for my Dtacores and don;t buy them. But why should i use them on invention ( if i procure them my self ) and not sell them at 10-35mil on market in Jita? Why should i bother wait hours to invent, days to build the t2 item, another days to sell them?
Again the problem are 2: Only 14-19 runs is low, and 500Rp per datacore or 2-10 in a hacking plex is also to low.
My opinion is someting like 50 runs with the max runs decryptor ( litlle chance ) and 20-30 runs with the best decryptor.
I'm not talking about chances, the t1 item with hight ML or something else, everithing is cool except runs and datacores.
I never had any job succeed with any decryptors other than the one that give a 40 run bpc. All the rest failed. And my relevant skills at lvl 4-5, so I dont feel like toss a 80-100m out of the window for each failed job when there is next to no hope for success :/
Failed invention jobs need to be earned back in again on those who do succeed, and when the ratio is all out of whack, why bother? DEVS doesnt seem like want to put their hands into this bee hive to comment any either
Make the data interfaces more available doesnt solve the problem, just add to make more people frustrated at best
Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
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Eton Favre
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Posted - 2007.01.31 18:02:00 -
[11]
/me signs frustrated and upset about loss of a month of game time and several billion for a non profitable T2 monopoly solution
for it to work with the number of runs currently, datacores would have to be dirt cheap (npc supplied or player made through bpos) All adding more BPCs to the game with more parts did was increase the demand for datacore. With the changes that were made to invention (without any sort of notice) your going to have more built interfaces so more people competing for the datacores. With out a better success rate and lower run cost invention will not work.
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Flowerpot
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Posted - 2007.01.31 18:30:00 -
[12]
Spatial - I would be interested to know what your skills were when you did these jobs.
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Spatial PIMP
Caldari Galactic Inventors Inc.
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Posted - 2007.01.31 19:13:00 -
[13]
All encryption methods skill @ lev 4, all science skills @ lev 4. With best decryptor average rate of succes was 7-8/10 and with the max run decryptor 2-3/10.I also used best named items or second best ones ( for heavy missiles i used XR-3200 not the arby )
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Fakespace
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Posted - 2007.01.31 21:14:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Spatial PIMP Edited by: Spatial PIMP on 30/01/2007 22:36:13So...WTF??
Signed...
I could live with the fact that my 1.5 months of GRINDING to find a interface bpc and build one didnt mean anything any more (as it was just to hard as it was), but did they HAVE to make invention totally useless at the same time (withouth mention it in the patch notes)?
Stuff like this realy makes me wonder if its time to play wow a bitt again... oh, the horror.
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Bermag
Point-Zero Ratel Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.31 21:39:00 -
[15]
Have any of you seen any changes of success rates on invention runs after the patch? If they have increased the base probability of success as well then that could explain the lower number of runs. Maybe other decryptors than those increasing probability are now useful to use?
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Bermag
Point-Zero Ratel Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.31 21:39:00 -
[16]
Have any of you seen any changes of success rates on invention runs after the patch? If they have increased the base probability of success as well then that could explain the lower number of runs. Maybe other decryptors than those increasing probability are now useful to use?
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Shadowsword
COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.01.31 21:47:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Bermag Have any of you seen any changes of success rates on invention runs after the patch? If they have increased the base probability of success as well then that could explain the lower number of runs. Maybe other decryptors than those increasing probability are now useful to use?
That base probability is inchanged. ------------------------------------------ Every ship has a base 60-70% resist against the primary damage type of the race that is the least able to vary it's damage types. |
Shadowsword
COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.01.31 21:47:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Bermag Have any of you seen any changes of success rates on invention runs after the patch? If they have increased the base probability of success as well then that could explain the lower number of runs. Maybe other decryptors than those increasing probability are now useful to use?
That base probability is inchanged. ------------------------------------------ Every ship has a base 60-70% resist against the primary damage type of the race that is the least able to vary it's damage types. |
DeODokktor
Caldari Dark Templars The Fonz Presidium
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Posted - 2007.02.02 16:32:00 -
[19]
DeoLogic: 1) You need 1 interface per job and it's not usable again UNTIL after the job is completed.
2) you making a 40 run bpc?.. Then let it take the same time as copying a 40r bpc.. 75 mins for something that could take 2 1/2 days if you had the bpo (hmmmm)
3) Increase Datacore's from agents (change the limit up to say 10 a trade)
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.02.02 20:52:00 -
[20]
I have to say it sounds like a lot of people here are complaining awfully fast. You can't judge how good the system is now until you see where prices go... people were complaining about rig prices when they first came out too, but those prices dropped quickly. Lets see what happens with datacore prices before we throw hissy fits.
Also, the profit levels were MASSIVE pre-patch for anyone who had the required pieces... it was just stupid how large the profit was. Now that profit has been toned down a bit until prices adjust themselves.
Previously, the profit would have dropped off very quickly anyhow... as T2 prices would have plummeted due to over-supply. They already are dropping due to the new T2 BPO's... but invention would have destroyed the prices until the profit from invention was rather small... then prices would have stabilized at that point. So either way the profit would not be that long, but the T2 market would have died if it was left as was.
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Ruffio Sepico
Minmatar Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2007.02.02 21:37:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Shadarle I have to say it sounds like a lot of people here are complaining awfully fast. You can't judge how good the system is now until you see where prices go... people were complaining about rig prices when they first came out too, but those prices dropped quickly. Lets see what happens with datacore prices before we throw hissy fits.
Also, the profit levels were MASSIVE pre-patch for anyone who had the required pieces... it was just stupid how large the profit was. Now that profit has been toned down a bit until prices adjust themselves.
Previously, the profit would have dropped off very quickly anyhow... as T2 prices would have plummeted due to over-supply. They already are dropping due to the new T2 BPO's... but invention would have destroyed the prices until the profit from invention was rather small... then prices would have stabilized at that point. So either way the profit would not be that long, but the T2 market would have died if it was left as was.
Now there is no use to do invention at all because the nerf result on runs for a successfull job + the high chance of failed jobs. And you cant just look at modules that sell high like T2 cap rechargers, but all the modules possible to invent as whole. When a invnted module end up cost several times what you already can buy them for on the market, it gets so wrong.
Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
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Eton Favre
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Posted - 2007.02.02 22:12:00 -
[22]
people are complaining that they spent 4 bil or more on an interface then a few billion on datacores and test runs to find out what worked for them. Overnight the interface is worth 1 bil and datacores tanked to nothing due to the new run limit. Datacores will have to drop significantly lower for invention to be profitable again. Then those of us that were trying are already down 3 bil on the interface and a few hundred mil /bil in the datacore price drop( I had 1 bil in datacores that were suddenly worth 300 mil and also attempted 4 jobs before i found out about the new run limit. ) @ 120 Mil per run those 4 jobs cost me a good chunk of cash. The interface price drop I was prepared for and welcomed, the run limit made the stocks of datacores I had worthless. Patch day I figure I lost about 3 bil between server shutdown and startup. As we were just figuring out what was working and what was not at considerable expense, kinda sucks to suddenly be that far in the hole.
I probably would have complained if it was in the patch notes but the fact that it was a totally silent nerf and we still have not heard a thing from a dev is what makes it totally screwed up. You do your best to plan for the patches read the patch notes and out of nowhere you get slammed by the changes they make.
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Ruffio Sepico
Minmatar Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2007.02.03 00:12:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Eton Favre
I probably would have complained if it was in the patch notes but the fact that it was a totally silent nerf and we still have not heard a thing from a dev is what makes it totally screwed up. You do your best to plan for the patches read the patch notes and out of nowhere you get slammed by the changes they make.
What annoys me is the silence from the devs about it. From TomB's devblog about invention it seemed like it was priority #1 or something, but when **** hit the fan there is just silence. Should have been enough threads floating about now that at least warrant some sort of aknowledge of things not being right
Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
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Corina Chiriac
Quam Singulari Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2007.02.03 00:37:00 -
[24]
All the invention thingy works verry well before the 1.3 patch , yah only couple ppl had interface build , but not because wasn't enough BPC's but only because ppl was to lazy to farm COSMOS complexes to get the build materials. Now all is nerfed ,14 runs output BPC's??? and a 40% chance or maybe 19 runs BPCs ( i don't know what chance but from 9 runs with best named item all failed ) what??? ppl who owned the tech II BPO's complained they will quit game if CCP don't nerf invention .why was necesary to be nerfed , look at market price cap recharger II droped from 20 mil each to 9 mil and i estimate will be around 4-5 mil in next 2-3 weeks , damage control II droped also from 12-13 mil to under 7 mil , now i m sorry to say that but all is fcked . Let's calculate for example for cap recharger II with a succes rate decryptor u get a 14 runs BPC , but only the datacores cost more than 80 mil all , the job is around 100 mil with 40% chance , so results a 7,14 mil for 1 run bpc and with this chance u must sell with around 20 mil each item to get a decent profit , so we just get what we had before invention
PS : sry my english
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Callan Skiderlar
LIfeline Incorporated
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Posted - 2007.02.03 01:02:00 -
[25]
The thing that is lame about increasing the drop rate of data interface BPCs is that the value of them will go to zero. You don't use them, and you don't risk them in ships. Something in - nothing out = glut. Increasing the component drop rate made a lot of sense, but the BPCs? That's crazy if it's supposed to be a rare item.
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"The market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent." - John Keynes |
Lenaria
Caldari Draconis Navitas Aeterna
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Posted - 2007.02.03 03:20:00 -
[26]
Badly need fixing ASAP.
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DeODokktor
Caldari Dark Templars The Fonz Presidium
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Posted - 2007.02.03 14:31:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Callan Skiderlar The thing that is lame about increasing the drop rate of data interface BPCs is that the value of them will go to zero. You don't use them, and you don't risk them in ships. Something in - nothing out = glut. Increasing the component drop rate made a lot of sense, but the BPCs? That's crazy if it's supposed to be a rare item.
Have they said it's a rare item?.. The problem is that it can be used forever, and has no wastage, and it's not "held" during the invention job.. so for all of you noobs.. if you have 10 people in your corp, who can use 10 slots each, that's 100 invention jobs.. so 100 10+ runs of any t2 item (possible) every 2 hours.. yea, invention REALLLLY sucks right now.
1) before patch, people werent running the complexes enough 2) before patch, there was obviously too many runs getting created.. guys offering 10-20 40r bpc's of the most profitable mods in game up for sale, because they couldnt mfgr all their invented bpc's.. It was a huge imbalance.. 3) before patch, it was more expensive to build the interface, and not as much stuff was dropping...
so now we have the patch people are doing complexes a bit more cause they heard invention was uber, run count is down, but the inital cost is also WAY down, and now the profit per unit is down (it's no longer to completely kill a tech2 market)..
If a "rare" tech2 bpo cant make 1b a year because invention keeps the prices that low, then is it worth it?.. I mean.. Lets get a hold on this thing guys your all *****ing cause invention sucks.. but if invention was real easy, then the tech2 market would be so bad that you wouldnt want to invent!!!
Think it out a little bit, If this is your new market area then WHY do you want to see the market dead?
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Nachtjaeger
Minmatar Silent Services Research
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Posted - 2007.02.03 16:46:00 -
[28]
When the cost of the datacores exceeds the value of the end result then ivention is not worth it and we may as well go back to hoarding RP in the hope of striking lucky in the lottery.
When you then factor in the cost of failed jobs too, invention just became a big isk sink that's not worth the bother.
Maybe 90 runs was too high but 19 is definitely too low.
Some official comment on the reasoning behind the new numbers is needed really. CCP have said they want to break the monopolies of the T2 market, invention was supposed to do that and now invention is no longer viable.
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Spatial PIMP
Caldari Galactic Inventors Inc.
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Posted - 2007.02.03 17:09:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Spatial PIMP on 03/02/2007 17:09:29 Edited by: Spatial PIMP on 03/02/2007 17:08:59 Edited by: Spatial PIMP on 03/02/2007 17:07:20 Again my point of wiev ( and many others ) in this problem.
Before Rev 1.3 patch:
Interfaces BPC - Rare but not so rare - u could get one for some billions - acceptable, and maybe excellent
Part to build Interfaces - Extremelly RARE and impossible to build one Tuner or Ship Interface in reasonable time - unacceptable
Decryptors - Except Caldari - RARE - unacceptable
Datacores - Expensive + RARE - unacceptable
Result Runs After Invention - To many - acceptable for not t2 bpos owners!
And now after the patch
Interfaces BPC - Extremelly easy to get them, to cheap, to many - unnaceptable
Part to build Interfaces - Enought for everybody - Very acceptable
Decryptors - Except Caldari - RARE - unacceptable - Unchanged
Datacores - Expensive + RARE - unacceptable - Unchanged
Result Runs After Invention - To low - acceptable for t2 bpos owners (they are really happy now)!
--------------------------------------------------
Like someone allready sayd invention was suposed to give a ballance to the market and to supply the demand at reasonable prices, and maybe to stop the t2 bpo owners monopole. But invention isn't that. I donno what is. Yes i really like it in January, but i can agree it was to uber. Now is just something there in the game...something that u lose time and money.
To repair actual situation i can propose next changes:
Increase Decryptor drop rate drastically
Increase Datacore drop rate in Hacking Bases (10 in base 1, 20 in base 2, 30 in base 3, 40 in base 4)
Make Research agents give 10 Datacores daily at low cost ( something like u must make that daily mission 2 day and in 3rd day u have RP to buy 10 datacores )
Increase Result runs to 20 and 50
Change the loosing everything when job failure ( give back t1 item and datacores )
Increase drastically Invention time ( 6-24 hours to data, 12-24 to tuner, 24-36 to ship ) - depending on the size of the invented item
And finally stop the crazy drop rate of the Data Interfaces ( make them dropping again at only in Base 4 , verry rare, like before )
Thanks for reading this :)
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Ascelot Junior
Caldari Redneck Revenge
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Posted - 2007.02.04 03:20:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Ascelot Junior on 04/02/2007 03:17:49 In my opinion this sums the situation up nicely:
Originally by: DeODokktor
Lets get a hold on this thing guys your all *****ing cause invention sucks.. but if invention was real easy, then the tech2 market would be so bad that you wouldnt want to invent!!!
Think it out a little bit, If this is your new market area then WHY do you want to see the market dead?
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