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Tareen Kashaar
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.02.01 15:09:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Lowanaera It is quite obvious that you only cling to the image of intelligentsia as a means to cover up the fact that your goal is no less than anarchy
The mere fact that you so unreflectedly consider the political philosophy of anarchy as despicable is testament enough that you yourself have fallen victim to the archaic memes we so vigorously fight against. The educated, self-reliant, powerful human being every capsuleer has the potential to become does not require condescending governance to survive on his own. Considering that, the idea of government, deprecated as it is and still a sad reality, ultimately loses any and all of its legitimacy. --- WTS: Forum Signatures, 30mil a piece. Evemail me!
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Tatsue Nuko
Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.02.01 16:29:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Roy Gordon The current level of human evolvement is of course æHomo SapiensÆ.
While you blatantly missed the point about what it is that is evolving (human condition versus human biology), I will however point out that there has been a pretty big development in the biology department as well.
My brain is a manufactured gel-matrix.
I still have my original brain (and body) in storage as a minor memento, of course, but my life did not stop with that body.
That is a pretty sizeable change in the human condition, don't you think?
If you think practical immortality - having "death" reduced to a mere material damage - as nothing much then all right, but I suspect most people wouldn't be quite as brave as they are if they knew they'd actually expire along with their current body. Fear of death already, for some - like us, is only a reality if you happen to be lacking ISK for a good enough replacement clone.
Fear of death for your average baseline is the knowledge that if they mess up, they'll just cease.
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Natasha Donnan
Caldari Silent-Running Surveillance
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Posted - 2007.02.01 17:27:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Natasha Donnan on 01/02/2007 17:23:48 All very humanist Tatsue, sure the condition has changed but the analysis nonetheless remains firmly humanist. _________________________________________ The Girl with the really Starey eyes. |
Nekumi
Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.02.01 20:00:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Natasha Donnan Edited by: Natasha Donnan on 01/02/2007 17:23:48 All very humanist Tatsue, sure the condition has changed but the analysis nonetheless remains firmly humanist.
A Post-human is a hypothetical future being whose basic capacities so radically exceed those of present humans as to be no longer human by our current standards.
I would consider virtual immortality to radically exceed those of present 'baseline' humans. This is what we mean when we say Post-human.
Humanism is a branch of ethical philosophical thought, Natasha. I'm not sure that's what you meant so I am trying to clarify Post-human for you as it is not directly linked to humanism in any real sense.
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Roy Gordon
Caldari The Star Wolves
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Posted - 2007.02.01 20:38:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Nekumi
Originally by: Natasha Donnan Edited by: Natasha Donnan on 01/02/2007 17:23:48 All very humanist Tatsue, sure the condition has changed but the analysis nonetheless remains firmly humanist.
A Post-human is a hypothetical future being whose basic capacities so radically exceed those of present humans as to be no longer human by our current standards.
I would consider virtual immortality to radically exceed those of present 'baseline' humans. This is what we mean when we say Post-human.
Humanism is a branch of ethical philosophical thought, Natasha. I'm not sure that's what you meant so I am trying to clarify Post-human for you as it is not directly linked to humanism in any real sense.
Is this not the postulated 'Homo Superior' the text books speak of then? That which does not kill us makes us stronger. The Universe is ruled by three basic principles- Matter, Energy and Enlightened Self-Interest! |
Nekumi
Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.02.01 21:07:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Roy Gordon
Originally by: Nekumi
Originally by: Natasha Donnan Edited by: Natasha Donnan on 01/02/2007 17:23:48 All very humanist Tatsue, sure the condition has changed but the analysis nonetheless remains firmly humanist.
A Post-human is a hypothetical future being whose basic capacities so radically exceed those of present humans as to be no longer human by our current standards.
I would consider virtual immortality to radically exceed those of present 'baseline' humans. This is what we mean when we say Post-human.
Humanism is a branch of ethical philosophical thought, Natasha. I'm not sure that's what you meant so I am trying to clarify Post-human for you as it is not directly linked to humanism in any real sense.
Is this not the postulated 'Homo Superior' the text books speak of then?
I've already addressed superiority in this thread. Put down the Pax Amarria and step away from the console Roy.
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Natasha Donnan
Caldari Silent-Running Surveillance
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Posted - 2007.02.01 22:43:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Nekumi
Originally by: Natasha Donnan Edited by: Natasha Donnan on 01/02/2007 17:23:48 All very humanist Tatsue, sure the condition has changed but the analysis nonetheless remains firmly humanist.
A Post-human is a hypothetical future being whose basic capacities so radically exceed those of present humans as to be no longer human by our current standards.
I would consider virtual immortality to radically exceed those of present 'baseline' humans. This is what we mean when we say Post-human.
Humanism is a branch of ethical philosophical thought, Natasha. I'm not sure that's what you meant so I am trying to clarify Post-human for you as it is not directly linked to humanism in any real sense.
I think it is best to leave it there we can talk about this more another time. Thank you for your patience. :) _________________________________________ The Girl with the really Starey eyes. |
Roy Gordon
Caldari The Star Wolves
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Posted - 2007.02.02 09:02:00 -
[38]
Nekumi, do you consider yourself so ‘superior’ that you do not bother to properly read other people’s musings and comments? Or is it you are afraid to admit you are not all-knowing? Either way, you obviously do not have an understanding of the theory of Human Evolution. It is not an Amarrian theological concept, and I don’t follow the Amarr way of life at all by the way, it is a scientific concept that states that Humans evolved from lower life forms to the more complex structure we find today. This theory, based on historical and scientific records, as well as archaeological discoveries, states that we humans have not yet reached the end of our evolvement, that the next stage will be the almost legendary ‘Homo Superior’. When you and your fellow Fraction members spout on about ‘Trans’ and ‘Post’ humans you are using the text book language to describe ‘Homo Superior’. I speak from a position of some authority on this matter having undertaken a Masters Degree in ‘Strategic Studies’, part of which I had to do extensive research for my dissertation on ‘Human evolution, its strategic implications for the wars of the future’
That which does not kill us makes us stronger. The Universe is ruled by three basic principles- Matter, Energy and Enlightened Self-Interest! |
Nekumi
Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.02.02 11:07:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Roy Gordon Nekumi, do you consider yourself so æsuperiorÆ that you do not bother to properly read other peopleÆs musings and comments? Or is it you are afraid to admit you are not all-knowing? Either way, you obviously do not have an understanding of the theory of Human Evolution. It is not an Amarrian theological concept, and I donÆt follow the Amarr way of life at all by the way, it is a scientific concept that states that Humans evolved from lower life forms to the more complex structure we find today. This theory, based on historical and scientific records, as well as archaeological discoveries, states that we humans have not yet reached the end of our evolvement, that the next stage will be the almost legendary æHomo SuperiorÆ. When you and your fellow Fraction members spout on about æTransÆ and æPostÆ humans you are using the text book language to describe æHomo SuperiorÆ. I speak from a position of some authority on this matter having undertaken a Masters Degree in æStrategic StudiesÆ, part of which I had to do extensive research for my dissertation on æHuman evolution, its strategic implications for the wars of the futureÆ
I'm sorry Roy, it was a poor joke and in bad taste. I am not superior (which I did state before), and I don't consider my self all-knowing either.
While posthumanism does technically relate to evolution, it is not in the old sense a purely biological evolution. Due to this fact, there is nothing bar science, economics and or time to prevent everyone else achieving this state I don't really see the newer state as superior to the norm, merely different.
This is purely my take on this and others might view it differently. I don't see pod pilots as better or worse than those without access to the technology. I could however see how some people might view it this way. This is a topic very much open to debate.
I wasn't sure what texts you where referencing and upon reading your response I can see now you are coming from a more learned viewpoint than what I had joked about earlier. Again my apologies on that score.
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Roy Gordon
Caldari The Star Wolves
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Posted - 2007.02.02 12:00:00 -
[40]
Apologies accepted. You did make a most interesting comment which does merit further investigation, that being about how we humans are perhaps not evolving, but are in fact 'enhancing' ourselves via technological and biological advances. I am thinking here about the implants we Pod Pilots appear so keen to poke into our brains. Perhaps we need to coin a new phrase for this new 'species' of human, I think 'Enhanced' would suffice. That which does not kill us makes us stronger. The Universe is ruled by three basic principles- Matter, Energy and Enlightened Self-Interest! |
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Natasha Donnan
Caldari Silent-Running Surveillance
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Posted - 2007.02.02 13:13:00 -
[41]
is the term 'cyborg' better suited to redescribing the new human being though?
I do think Nekumi has hit on one of the potential problems of cyborg's and this might be a kind of 'God' complex we see that comes with apparent immortality.
I often wonder how the Ammar reconcile their likeness to God through this technology and maintain humility at the same time...
Regards
'Noddy' _________________________________________ The Girl with the really Starey eyes. |
Roy Gordon
Caldari The Star Wolves
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Posted - 2007.02.02 13:58:00 -
[42]
Cyborg ('Cybernetic Organism') relates to a cybernetic machine that has the exterior appearance to a human being and which has a human brain controlling it. I know no cyborg's as I know no one who would be willing to have the extremely risky operation of transferring their brain to a mechanical endoskeleton. The term 'Enhanced' has in fact been used in the scientific field to describe those persons who have, in one way or another, made some aspect of their physical form 'superior' to its natural state i.e. replacing the arms or legs with cybernetic limbs or cranial implants to increase mental capacity etc. So, no, the correct term for the vast majority of humans at this present time would be 'Enhanced'. That which does not kill us makes us stronger. The Universe is ruled by three basic principles- Matter, Energy and Enlightened Self-Interest! |
Nekumi
Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.02.02 14:10:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Nekumi on 02/02/2007 14:07:22 I view this enhancment as a means to accelerate a sort of biological evolution. With improvements in science and technology, humanity has transcended distance and time. We can communicate across vast distances and we can live beyond any natural time our old biological forms may have permitted.
With these advances our minds have changed and adapted. We are on the brink of a new beginning and at the vanguard and with the greatest potential for this development are the capsuleer community.
Without turning this too much to politics, it is the hope and dream of Jericho Fraction to make this turning point into a positive. We have surpassed any need for the current regressive societal memes. We no longer need to rely on the corrupt and stagnant edifices of humanity, we can and should be the masters of our own destiny.
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Roy Gordon
Caldari The Star Wolves
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Posted - 2007.02.02 14:37:00 -
[44]
Hmmm...this is turning into a most riviting debate, probably boring everyone else witless, but for me most stimulating. This is the old 'Nature vs Nurture' debate but with a different slant to it. On one hand humans would evolve 'naturally' through the normal process of time and selection. But on the other hand humans are actively 'tampering' with the natural selection and evolution process and may well be 'creating' the new 'Homo Superior' species. I'm not sure which I would prefer really, should one speed up the evolutionary process to reach the desired aim? Or is it best to leave well enough alone and see how we would have panned out anyway? That which does not kill us makes us stronger. The Universe is ruled by three basic principles- Matter, Energy and Enlightened Self-Interest! |
Nekumi
Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.02.02 14:42:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Roy Gordon I'm not sure which I would prefer really, should one speed up the evolutionary process to reach the desired aim? Or is it best to leave well enough alone and see how we would have panned out anyway?
There is also the theory that by using technology as a catalyst, we are actively promoting the biological evolution. There is nothing to say what the triggers for an evolvment can be (that I know of), therefore to see technological advancement as something promoting or heeding a "natural" evolution are not necessary.
I personally see it as a transcendence, from one form to another. Taking it from a macro viewpoint it doesn't matter whether the catalyst is technological or biological it is clear that mankind is evolving.
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Natasha Donnan
Caldari Silent-Running Surveillance
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Posted - 2007.02.02 14:58:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Natasha Donnan on 02/02/2007 14:56:41 Edited by: Natasha Donnan on 02/02/2007 14:55:44 Nice responses.
This brings me back to Nekumi and Jericho's ideology. Are we entering the phase of the superman, the superhuman who can live and die by the moment. Will we witness new forms of aggression for example given the lack of a fear of death? How will sustained exposure to such aggression affect the biological aspects of the species as time develops?
One of the things these developments certainly expose is that the old theory of evolution (which states that structural changes in species occur as a result of selections forced on species in interaction with their environments) is no longer adequate to explain something that has a second order loop feeding back into the evolutionary process. The dynamics are no longer linear and progressive but potentially chaotic.
This is why I worry that maybe Jericho Fraction's ideology is too much rooted in the model of the superhuman and that it is simply not complex enough to take into consideration the complex dynamics at play... After all a human being is still rooted to the position of the observer and as such cannot see what it cannot see. In other words the human perspective is not where the future dynamics of the cluster lie. No matter how enhanced they are.
kind regards
Noddy _________________________________________ The Girl with the really Starey eyes. |
Nekumi
Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.02.02 15:22:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Natasha Donnan Edited by: Natasha Donnan on 02/02/2007 14:56:41 Edited by: Natasha Donnan on 02/02/2007 14:55:44 Nice responses.
This brings me back to Nekumi and Jericho's ideology. Are we entering the phase of the superman, the superhuman who can live and die by the moment. Will we witness new forms of aggression for example given the lack of a fear of death? How will sustained exposure to such aggression affect the biological aspects of the species as time develops?
One of the things these developments certainly expose is that the old theory of evolution (which states that structural changes in species occur as a result of selections forced on species in interaction with their environments) is no longer adequate to explain something that has a second order loop feeding back into the evolutionary process. The dynamics are no longer linear and progressive but potentially chaotic.
This is why I worry that maybe Jericho Fraction's ideology is too much rooted in the model of the superhuman and that it is simply not complex enough to take into consideration the complex dynamics at play... After all a human being is still rooted to the position of the observer and as such cannot see what it cannot see. In other words the human perspective is not where the future dynamics of the cluster lie. No matter how enhanced they are.
kind regards
Noddy
This is the crux of the matter Natasha. We have been given a gift, the ability for once to exceed what we where born with, to reach into the very stars themselves. What people do with that gift will write the future.
I for one, hope that we can achieve an enlightenment and appreciation for what we have and what we can do without falling into outmoded and regressive ways of being that have existed since the dawn of man.
We, as pod pilots, should seize this chance to try and change our very nature for the better.
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Mineas Argon
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.02.02 19:36:00 -
[48]
You must also realize, when speaking of evolution, that evolution evolves itself. This may be where each viewpoint in this discussion merges. M Gordon speaks of whether it is wise or right to tamper with our evolution, or let it go on its' own. M Donnan has taken a stance that perhaps we cannot trust our human faculties to know our own nature.
I would argue that by tampering with the perceived notion of linear, ordered evolution, we are merely following the path to a new stage in evolving evolution. This would suggest that the percieved chaos of nonlinear evolution is not actually chaos, but follows an underlying order. While we cannot perceive of this process directly (and thus cannot trust our limited human faculties), it does not mean it isn't there.
With the pod and clone, we, as individuals, no longer need to trust that evolution continues after our deaths. We do not have to trust that humanity will evolve. This means that, instead of focusing on humanity evolving, we can focus on the evolution of human individuals. We no longer need to be spectators; we can now participate.
But humans will not evolve without realizing that they are individuals. Once we realize we are individuals, we can then treat each other as such, without relying on perceived group identities.
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Lucius Lefebvre
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.02.02 20:32:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Lucius Lefebvre on 02/02/2007 20:29:16 Without wishing to derail what has become a discussion full of possibilities, I can only apologise to Mme Donnan for failing to answer her query, addressed to me, sooner. Alas, time and circumstance have me at their mercy.
Possibly you have received satisfactory answers from other sources. Nevertheless, your questions prompt further interesting directions of discussion. I will consider them and, if I may, contact you at a more favourable juncture.
Respectfully, Lucius
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Natasha Donnan
Caldari Silent-Running Surveillance
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Posted - 2007.02.03 01:13:00 -
[50]
for another time indeed I hope it is worth waiting on.
As for this discussion. I see no gift, in fact where some of you see a gift I see burden. Indeed I see no bigger hand in the future apart from the moment. Are we relinquising the present for what? A super human tomorrow? I am so unsure..
I am glad though that some might not want to make god in the image of 'man'.
I can see Mineas that for you the issues are the same however I am a simple person and there are limits to what I can tolerate. An evolution that folds in on itself cannot truly be evolutionary it is already operating on a dynamic beyond evolution....
Now should we trust anything. I am not so sure. But I have had a drink in Ommare and even if I fall over in the morning. I might remain human. I hopefully will remain imperfect <Noddy Stares>
_________________________________________ The Girl with the really Starey eyes. |
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