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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
267
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Posted - 2016.02.09 04:48:55 -
[151] - Quote
so i guess, "HTFU" is not applicable this time eh?
Just Add Water
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
17445
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Posted - 2016.02.09 05:00:10 -
[152] - Quote
Tiberian Deci wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:Malcanis wrote: There was no difficulty in giving 4.5m sp to battlecruiser pilots.
Because otherwise those pilots lost access to existing hulls that they could use. This change to carriers is more akin to the mining frigates & cruisers losing all their bonuses to mining and the new mining frigate being introduced. Where CCP did not award skill points because the hulls still existed and could still be flown. And I sure don't remember lots of experienced people screaming that it wasn't fair that they didn't get given the new mining frigate at V. As I said before I am neutral, but historical precedent of this sort of change actually is that people have to train the new hull. I wasn't around then, but I'd like to hypothesize that there was less screaming because it wasn't a x14 skill for the hull with x10 and x12 skills you could train for 1/2 of the utility of the hull, plus another 15-ish million SP for the drone skills for the other 1/2 of the utility of the hull.
Not to mention that the mining frigates weren't just a role split but were also vastly better and had entirely new capabilities, and were in any case not that important to players who wanted to specialize in mining unless they cared about gas mining.
Capital pilots aren't gaining anything new; they're being asked to pay up to 18m sp for the ability to use ships that will be weaker than the ones they have now. If ccp insisted on splitting the skills (and I don't see the necessity for doing so when Caldari Frigate covers both the Kestrel and the Bantam) then significantly reducing the Rank was the way to go. Make both skills Rank 8 works fine for me.
I don't care a bit about "free SP", since I have zero interest in using either extractor or injectors. What I care about is the ability to do on Wednesday that I was able to do on Monday. Asking me to spend 2B on skill books and acquire and fit twice as many capital hulls seems more than a sufficient price to pay for that without adding 7 months of training or spending several hundred pounds as well.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Very Aggressive Reacharound
State War Academy Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2016.02.09 05:05:31 -
[153] - Quote
CCP you are disgusting making us train 4 new racial skills for logistics carrier. fire the new EA execs whos idea this is and stop with the money grab. It is so disgusting that you are forcing us to train more skills... taking what the carrier could already do and now makeing it take twice as long. You are such a bunch of sleeze balls. what is this all a ploy to get us to buy your stupid extraters!! I want to use so many more words but i can't but seriously remember incarna... remember monocole gate. stop trying to fleece us with your pay to play Bullshit.
we don't even know what changes you are making or the stats that are on the fax so we don't know which one will be the best to use.. so we don't know which to train.. WTF
FAX should be non racial like logistics, it already takes forever to train carriers up and now you want to limit what we can fly and as much as you change the damn ships changing what is best it's so stupid. also making us train 3 sperate fighter skills is absurd ah you guys are just disgusting!!!.
#incarna #fireMariaSayans |
Dixie Mason
ZERO TAX MERCS
27
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Posted - 2016.02.09 05:28:46 -
[154] - Quote
My congratulations to CCP, you are perfect in antagonizing your customer base.
Of course it's your game and your rules but I will have my little say in early/mid summer when my 3 accounts will expire. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
17446
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Posted - 2016.02.09 05:44:23 -
[155] - Quote
Oh look, a well timed AUR sale is announced. Well that sets my mind at rest as to the motivation behind this.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Lugh Crow-Slave
1535
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Posted - 2016.02.09 06:47:40 -
[156] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Oh look, a well timed AUR sale is announced. Well that sets my mind at rest as to the motivation behind this.
Like I said convenient
Citadel worm hole tax
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Lugh Crow-Slave
1535
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Posted - 2016.02.09 06:50:30 -
[157] - Quote
Very Aggressive Reacharound wrote:
FAX should be non racial like logistics, it already takes forever to train carriers up and now you want to limit what we can fly and as much as you change the damn ships changing what is best it's so stupid. also making us train 3 sperate fighter skills is absurd ah you guys are just disgusting!!!.
#incarna #fireMariaSayans
No the fax should be racial they are capitals however they should not be +ù14 as they are not a super capital skill
Citadel worm hole tax
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DeLaBu
Digital Origami Evictus.
31
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Posted - 2016.02.09 07:05:01 -
[158] - Quote
CCP, please provide paths to both sides of specialisation.
The FAX machine users seem to have a path to their side, but the carrier path users will be stuck with the (now unused) triage module skills.
Or will there be something similar to a triage module for carrier users that this skill will be applicable to?
Or am I entirely missing a point somewhere?
Thanks. |
Fladmeister
Merchants Trade Consortium The Last Chancers.
0
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Posted - 2016.02.09 07:34:56 -
[159] - Quote
Isn't this why we have the CSM?
"The purpose of the CSM is to represent society interests to CCP. This requires active engagement with the player community to master EVE issue awareness, understanding, and evaluation in the context of the greatest good for the greater player base." |
Very Aggressive Reacharound
State War Academy Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2016.02.09 08:10:53 -
[160] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Would have been a lot simpler to just convert 'tactical logistics recon' to the new FAX skill. And base the performance of triage on that.
^this and it should be non racial its giant logistics and to train carrier and fax would still be long train but you could cross train easier much like current logistics. if it works for other logistics why change it for carrier... oh wait i forgot you hirred Maria Sayans and you have to make people pay for injectors. |
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Very Aggressive Reacharound
State War Academy Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2016.02.09 08:12:50 -
[161] - Quote
Kallor Eidermann Tes'thesula wrote:Sub Starasque wrote:So now I have to train a new 14x skill to do what I could do before? That stings. I feel burned. I would like to second what Sub Starasque said above. This character has all racial carriers at 5. I can currently fly DPS OR Triage carriers of all races. And now I have to sink 100 days of training into being able to continue to do so, without getting anything new from it.
welcome to new pay to play ccp wants you to buy injectors
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Very Aggressive Reacharound
State War Academy Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2016.02.09 08:17:16 -
[162] - Quote
Axel Stenmark wrote:Today, you can fly a fighter carrier and a triage carrier. Tomorrow you have to decide if you want to fly a fighter carrier and/or a force auxiliary without knowing how either of them will work in the citadel expansion. If you think you want to use a "triage" carrier, you need to buy a 500 million ISK skill book and spend the next two months training an X14 skill, just to retain your current ability in triage. You can also use skill injectors, which will add cost, if you wish to skip the two months of training. 500 million skill book and two PLEX and two months time (or additional ISK on injectors) to keep an ability you already have. Now mulitply that by how many characters can currently fly triage and you see how this is a giant ISK sink. Expect even more pressure on PLEX prices than just skill injectors.
yup |
Lugh Crow-Slave
1536
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Posted - 2016.02.09 08:20:39 -
[163] - Quote
Very Aggressive Reacharound wrote:Kallor Eidermann Tes'thesula wrote:Sub Starasque wrote:So now I have to train a new 14x skill to do what I could do before? That stings. I feel burned. I would like to second what Sub Starasque said above. This character has all racial carriers at 5. I can currently fly DPS OR Triage carriers of all races. And now I have to sink 100 days of training into being able to continue to do so, without getting anything new from it. welcome to new pay to play ccp wants you to buy injectors
Lol of you have all four to V that's more than 100 days it's over 200
And that's before the new x12 fighter skills
Citadel worm hole tax
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Sean Sonnach
Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance
6
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Posted - 2016.02.09 08:32:12 -
[164] - Quote
Terrible planning.
You realise you are SoFaKing over your long standing and loyal customers the most with this change?
CCP_Just Got Sh1tt3r
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Morrigan LeSante
Senex Legio The OSS
1169
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Posted - 2016.02.09 08:32:30 -
[165] - Quote
I can't wait to get pounded in the ass with the fighter skills next. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2963
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Posted - 2016.02.09 08:35:04 -
[166] - Quote
Very Aggressive Reacharound wrote: ^this and it should be non racial its giant logistics and to train carrier and fax would still be long train but you could cross train easier much like current logistics. if it works for other logistics why change it for carrier... oh wait i forgot you hirred Maria Sayans and you have to make people pay for injectors.
Or possibly it's because Carriers are considered T1 ships, not T2 ships and T1 ships have racial lines, and T2 ships require those same racial lines to V per race and then an additional skill on top. Really, you are just having an entitlement whine at this point.
And Malcanis, you are being a two year old. This doesn't take effect for three months or longer, of course there was going to be an Aur sale between now and then, and timing it with the new release of a new aur item is common business practice, or are CCP not allowed to use basic common business techniques to make any profit at all? |
Lugh Crow-Slave
1538
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Posted - 2016.02.09 08:43:06 -
[167] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Very Aggressive Reacharound wrote: ^this and it should be non racial its giant logistics and to train carrier and fax would still be long train but you could cross train easier much like current logistics. if it works for other logistics why change it for carrier... oh wait i forgot you hirred Maria Sayans and you have to make people pay for injectors.
Or possibly it's because Carriers are considered T1 ships, not T2 ships and T1 ships have racial lines, and T2 ships require those same racial lines to V per race and then an additional skill on top. Really, you are just having an entitlement whine at this point. And Malcanis, you are being a two year old. This doesn't take effect for three months or longer, of course there was going to be an Aur sale between now and then, and timing it with the new release of a new aur item is common business practice, or are CCP not allowed to use basic common business techniques to make any profit at all?
Why a company does something -> irrelevant
Why the consumer thinks a company is doing something -> relevant
Citadel worm hole tax
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Morrigan LeSante
Senex Legio The OSS
1169
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Posted - 2016.02.09 08:59:28 -
[168] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Very Aggressive Reacharound wrote: ^this and it should be non racial its giant logistics and to train carrier and fax would still be long train but you could cross train easier much like current logistics. if it works for other logistics why change it for carrier... oh wait i forgot you hirred Maria Sayans and you have to make people pay for injectors.
Or possibly it's because Carriers are considered T1 ships, not T2 ships and T1 ships have racial lines, and T2 ships require those same racial lines to V per race and then an additional skill on top. Really, you are just having an entitlement whine at this point. And Malcanis, you are being a two year old. This doesn't take effect for three months or longer, of course there was going to be an Aur sale between now and then, and timing it with the new release of a new aur item is common business practice, or are CCP not allowed to use basic common business techniques to make any profit at all?
There comes a point of scaling.
This might follow the principles of mining frigates (and I agree there, there is precedent) but that was like 5k isk and a rank 1 skill .
That is not the same on a relative scale as 2 billion layout, a 14x skill and losing half of what one can do today overnight.
I mean, be honest, if they added a new skill required for each ships to be flown: 14x, at 500m a book you'd be utterly furious. Let's call it "$RACE flight authorization skills" and without it, you don't get to do tomorrow what you can do today. Are you seriously telling me you'd be ok with that?
So, are you surprised the carrier guys are more than a little pissed? Because I'm not.
There is a difference between blindly following precedent and doing the decent thing. A more recent example of that would be when the starting skills were altered but newbros caught in the middle got a free SP drop. I don't recall anyone crying about that, but this is ok right? Because it's older guys getting the shaft?
It is a very disappointing move from CCP, very disappointing indeed.
And as I say, I expect to see a humping on fighter skills too. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2963
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Posted - 2016.02.09 09:16:41 -
[169] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote: I mean, be honest, if they added a new skill required for each ships to be flown: 14x, at 500m a book you'd be utterly furious. Let's call it "$RACE flight authorization skills" and without it, you don't get to do tomorrow what you can do today. Are you seriously telling me you'd be ok with that?
So, are you surprised the carrier guys are more than a little pissed? Because I'm not.
You are trying to compare apples & oranges here though. You are presenting a case where I couldn't fly the hulls I could fly today, CCP are presenting a case where they have removed a role from a ship because it was too powerful with it's multirole ability and then created a new ship to cover that role because it's an important role in the overall meta.
Yes, it's a nerf, but it was an obviously needed nerf to the carrier, and those people getting upset over not getting both skills free are mainly getting upset over false pretences and bad examples that don't actually match what is really going on. I'm neutral on the overall skill question, but when people are raging and abusing CCP over false pretences then I'm going to call them out on their behaviour. Especially when it's not old characters getting the shaft, because newbro's have to spend exactly the same time training they will. It's newbro's who get the shaft if old characters get both skills for free, not the other way around. |
NaK'Lin
Calamitous-Intent Feign Disorder
58
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Posted - 2016.02.09 09:34:42 -
[170] - Quote
So, it is actually a bad solution. Personally I believe we should get all relevant SP refunded and simply allocate them into something and make a commitment.
Alternatively, Just take each persons Tactical Logi Recon skill level and convert it into the FAX level. The module shall have the effects based on the FAX level. Or the module has no effect modifier and the hull gets the effect modifiers, based on FAX levels. Similar to Marauders. You PAY to fly your ships in eve. It takes you time to train and a fully maxed Carrier + Triage costs beyond the 100 USD mark just in training time. I believe it isn't asking for much, instead of this convoluted solution we're being offered now.
Furthermore, with the current solution, should some of my toons switch to FAX, what about Fighter skills? They use to be able to aid a Triage in defense, and won't be able to be used in a FAX at all. Shall we just stare at those SP? Inversely, what about all the RR skills and Triage SP, should we chose not to inject FAX?
I hope CCP reads this post, as I honestly the above listed alternative for the transition to be viable. Go ahead and like the post, Thx. |
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Morrigan LeSante
Senex Legio The OSS
1170
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Posted - 2016.02.09 09:39:05 -
[171] - Quote
No I'm not, I'm saying you'd just be less good at them i.e. not able to do what you could previously. The very fact you're dancing around it tells me how happy you would be.
And no, it's very clearly an older player shafting.
Newbro wants to train triage? 500m per FAX.
Old guy wants it? 500m on top of the 500m they already sunk and the associated vestigial skills with the now useless to them carrier skill.
At the end of the day, with different hulls they could today fulfil two roles, this is 100% not possible as a result of the changes. To return to this it's about 7 months and a couple of billion. Smaller groups are hurt even more by this to boot as they rely on the same pilots being able to sit in multiple ships etc, they don't have the bodies to split between DPS and triage. It is an appalling way to handle it.
Remember when they split the industrial hulls they kept the same skill. I didn't need half a dozen new skills to use all the gallente ones.
CCP may be following the letter of their rules, but it's sure as hell not in the spirit of them. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2963
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Posted - 2016.02.09 09:47:32 -
[172] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote: Old guy wants it? 500m on top of the 500m they already sunk and the associated vestigial skills with the now useless to them carrier skill.
What vestigial skills? You can't use fighters while in triage, so if you trained fighters you trained to fly a combat carrier as well as triage. And no, your example was directly 'you will need this new skill to fly the same hull you needed to before'. You are the one dancing around here trying to find an opening.
And they didn't split the industrial hulls, All those hulls already existed. This is exactly what I am talking about, people are presenting false information and then using it to justify their outrage. |
Anthar Thebess
1441
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Posted - 2016.02.09 09:47:47 -
[173] - Quote
Yes carriers where to powerful, and it is good that they split the roles. It is good that combat refitting is gone, it is good that we get more capital modules.
Changes to hulls will affect the game, not the skills. What CCP is doing is simply " PAY US AGAIN FOR THIS" it is very annoying, and unfair.
When CCP introduce new destroyers, no one complain that there is something new to skill, BECAUSE THERE IS SOMETHING NEW TO TRAIN.
Today, we will need to pay and train again the same things - you don't have people bitching that we will have new fighters and new skills to train - those will be NEW THINGS. You have people angry that today they can use a triage carrier and combat carrier, and after the changes they won't be able to do the same.
Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists
Show your support to The Cause!
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Lorno Black
Sternenbastarde
1
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Posted - 2016.02.09 09:49:39 -
[174] - Quote
I am so pissed. Best solution for me: Get all of these Skills to zero and have the chance to allocate them where I want them to have. But I think CCP won't reply on this thread anymore. |
Morrigan LeSante
Senex Legio The OSS
1170
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Posted - 2016.02.09 09:53:09 -
[175] - Quote
If you don't even know what the carrier prereqs are, please stop bleating in a discussion about carriers.
and again, re-read it. I specifically said " you don't get to do tomorrow what you can do today".
You know, exactly what's happening to carriers. |
Anthar Thebess
1441
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Posted - 2016.02.09 09:55:50 -
[176] - Quote
Monetization people will not allow to give capital skills to people who already had them. They can pull at least 9 extra subscriptions for each capital character that need to be retrained. No one cares about newbros this is only dictated by $. Nonsense is that you need to buy FAX skill to choose if you want to have Combat Carrier of Fax of this race.
Why i simply cannot choose : Amarr -> Fax Caldari -> Fax Gallente -> DPS Minmatar (lol i know) -> no i don't know dps maybe.
Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists
Show your support to The Cause!
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2963
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Posted - 2016.02.09 10:00:12 -
[177] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:If you don't even know what the carrier prereqs are, please stop bleating in a discussion about carriers.
and again, re-read it. I specifically said " you don't get to do tomorrow what you can do today".
You know, exactly what's happening to carriers. Fighters are not a pre-req for carriers. Only drones are, and drones apply to all your sub cap ships (& may even apply to FAX, we don't know yet). Jump drives are a pre-req, and will certainly be applicable to FAX. Capital ship skill is, they will be a pre-req also. Oh, and racial BS 3, that's likely to remain a pre-req for FAX's also.
Want to tell me more about these vestigial skills that you HAD to train for a Triage carrier that won't apply to either FAX or all your subcap ships also. And even if you trained straight to carriers, you have subcap ships with drone space you have skills in already.
Anthar Thebess wrote: Why i simply cannot choose : Amarr -> Fax Caldari -> Fax Gallente -> DPS Minmatar (lol i know) -> no i don't know dps maybe.
Because CCP can't do a database query script to change every single pilots skills according to that system. That's why they have done the system they have. |
Morrigan LeSante
Senex Legio The OSS
1170
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Posted - 2016.02.09 10:02:26 -
[178] - Quote
Confirming drone interfacing is useful to my dedicated logi/triage pilot. Jesus.
I get it, you're of the **** the old guys generation. Enjoy your game. |
Tawaif
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
1
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Posted - 2016.02.09 10:05:05 -
[179] - Quote
I would like all my SP back," for free", and I'll reallocate it into whatever carrier, triage and drone skills I think I need , after the dust has settled.. And the Isk for the skill books please CCP. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2963
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Posted - 2016.02.09 10:05:49 -
[180] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:Confirming drone interfacing is useful to my dedicated logi/triage pilot. Jesus.
I get it, you're of the **** the old guys generation. Enjoy your game. Confirming missile skills were useful to a dedicated Naglfar pilot. CCP have changed ship roles many a time in the past which left a 'dedicated' pilot of just that ship with skills that were no longer applicable to that ship. That however is not CCP's problem in overall game design but yours in insisting that the only ship you can and will ever fly is that particular ship. |
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