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Thorian Baalnorn
Bad Influence ChaosTheory.
77
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Posted - 2016.02.12 19:31:53 -
[31] - Quote
Killboards are overrated. They are inflated in various ways and do not really show someones pvp ability. They do however make great intelligence tools. Its like people give you free intel on what they fly and how they set it up.
Most pvp is lopsided, Many people KM whore, gankers and wardeccers have KBs that show a high number of kills but against targets that require very little skill or effort. People place way more relevance in KBs than should be.
Sometimes you are the squirrel and sometimes you are the nut. Today, you are the nut and the squirrel is hungry.
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Nitshe Razvedka
State War Academy Caldari State
461
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Posted - 2016.02.12 22:57:24 -
[32] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Nice analysis Gevlon. Always good to see who the true elite PvPers are in this game.
Inb4 random tears from people with red killboards about why this is not important and flawed any why they are special and better anyway.
/popcorn
Don't need post grad qualifications in quantitative research methods to realise CODE is not elite but SPECIAL. Its good you have banded together and support each other with your own special website. You are only reinforcing in your own minds what your closest family members have said to you growing up; "your special."
Thieving pirates discuss INTEGRITY; Anarchist gankers give us LAWS; and Whoring merc's cry then blow off clients with INSULTS.
Up is down and down is up in the C&P Forum.
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Gevlon Goblin
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
510
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Posted - 2016.02.14 11:53:43 -
[33] - Quote
Thorian Baalnorn wrote:Killboards are overrated. They are inflated in various ways and do not really show someones pvp ability. They do however make great intelligence tools. Its like people give you free intel on what they fly and how they set it up.
Most pvp is lopsided, Many people KM whore, gankers and wardeccers have KBs that show a high number of kills but against targets that require very little skill or effort. People place way more relevance in KBs than should be. Killmail whores are removed from my analysis, that's the point. If you do a potshot with 0.01% damage, enjoy your 10K ISK booked!
Indeed most PvP is lopsided, but that's exactly what's EVE about. If you are able to set up a trap where your enemies are outnumbered 5:1, you are more "skilled" than the pilot who can win 1:2. That's what "killboards don't matter" people don't understand. It's TRUE that killboard don't correlate with piloting skill. But piloting skill doesn't matter, trapsetting (well measured by killboards) matter.
My blog: greedygoblin.blogspot.com
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Neuntausend
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
620
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Posted - 2016.02.14 12:51:48 -
[34] - Quote
On that topic - Would you say an Interceptor or Interdictor landing the initial tackle or a Logistics pilot does not contribute to the kill? Or is it just too difficult to determine their value? Not that it really matters, just curious. |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
2281
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Posted - 2016.02.14 14:46:13 -
[35] - Quote
Neuntausend wrote:On that topic - Would you say an Interceptor or Interdictor landing the initial tackle or a Logistics pilot does not contribute to the kill? Or is it just too difficult to determine their value? Not that it really matters, just curious.
This is the actually important bit. Given how easy it is to avoid PVP in Eve, most kills would not happen at all but for the initial tackler. Cooperation with other players is an important part of getting kills "in the wild" - rather than arranged fights.
CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
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ArmyOfMe
BANISHED. The WeHurt Initiative
587
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Posted - 2016.02.14 14:50:36 -
[36] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Nice analysis Gevlon. Always good to see who the true elite PvPers are in this game.
Inb4 random tears from people with red killboards about why this is not important and flawed any why they are special and better anyway.
/popcorn Ganking haulers is elite pvp amirite?
QUOTE CCP Dolan and the EVE Online development team:-áThe battle was relatively even for some time with CFC and Russian forces holding moderate lead at first and only have a slight lead in Titan kills. Then came a turning point in the battle. Manfred Sideous, the initial Fleet Commander for PL/N3, handed over command to the CEO of Northern Coalition., Vince Draken
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
7209
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Posted - 2016.02.14 19:41:20 -
[37] - Quote
Gevlon Goblin wrote:Killmail whores are removed from my analysis, that's the point. If you do a potshot with 0.01% damage, enjoy your 10K ISK booked! That's only one type of killmail whore and they are reduced, not removed. 0.01% damage on an expensive ship is still quite a bit for a ship that was irrelevant to the fight. That's still 10m damager per billion of target ship going to a pilot who had no influence on the battle.
Gevlon Goblin wrote:Indeed most PvP is lopsided, but that's exactly what's EVE about. If you are able to set up a trap where your enemies are outnumbered 5:1, you are more "skilled" than the pilot who can win 1:2. That's what "killboards don't matter" people don't understand. It's TRUE that killboard don't correlate with piloting skill. But piloting skill doesn't matter, trapsetting (well measured by killboards) matter. But if you go after a player who has no ability to defend themselves, that doesn't make you better than a pilot who chooses to only go after tough targets, but the killboards would show them as such. In reality that second pilot would destroy you if it came to a fight as they are competent enough to win fights against strong opponents, while you are used to oneshotting plex carrying shuttles and such.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
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Kiandoshia
Gambrini
2421
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Posted - 2016.02.14 19:49:34 -
[38] - Quote
Your interpretation of ~numbers~ is propaganda. |
Gevlon Goblin
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
510
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Posted - 2016.02.15 15:50:35 -
[39] - Quote
ArmyOfMe wrote:Ganking haulers is elite pvp amirite? No, but "elite PvP" is totally irrelevant in EVE. If you want to win in a fair fight by superior skill, you are playing the wrong game. EVE is a strategy game, played with and for resources. A player who can catch an expensive hauler causes much more damage to the enemy than the "elite PvP-er" who kills hundreds of enemy frigs and T1 cruisers.
My blog: greedygoblin.blogspot.com
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2606
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Posted - 2016.02.15 16:09:09 -
[40] - Quote
Hey guys, last night, I became an even more terrible PvPer when getting inista popped off the Jita undock. I know it was stupid but the real end result is how bad I have become by adding 100+ million to my already red ratio. |
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Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
1088
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Posted - 2016.02.15 22:19:29 -
[41] - Quote
+1 to GG for an entertaining thread.
Remove insurance.
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Gevlon Goblin
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
513
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Posted - 2016.02.16 17:41:40 -
[42] - Quote
Update: added renters, Southern alliances and Verge of Collapse. The renters had surprisingly low losses, it seems no group focused on them. Verge is a monster: 83 men alliance had more de-inflated kills than 5000 men SMA. And much less losses of course.
My blog: greedygoblin.blogspot.com
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Gevlon Goblin
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
513
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Posted - 2016.02.18 02:58:26 -
[43] - Quote
Update: added rats killed for alliances that had Sov in 2015. The result is that the renters and some Southern Russians killed stupid amount of rats compared to their losses: http://greedygoblin.blogspot.hu/2016/02/the-imperium-is-safest-place-to-rat.html
My blog: greedygoblin.blogspot.com
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
33381
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Posted - 2016.02.18 03:18:56 -
[44] - Quote
Gevlon I think what you want is a killboard that records stats the way you describe. It's a more accurate system, you're right.
Any plans to start a proper killboard like that?
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
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Gevlon Goblin
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
514
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Posted - 2016.02.19 19:18:04 -
[45] - Quote
It's impossible, because it's not enough to just code and host a killboard (enormous work), but you need API keys from players to have data. Do you have any idea how to get those?
My blog: greedygoblin.blogspot.com
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Shallanna Yassavi
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
82
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Posted - 2016.02.19 22:13:07 -
[46] - Quote
Gevlon Goblin wrote:ArmyOfMe wrote:Ganking haulers is elite pvp amirite? No, but "elite PvP" is totally irrelevant in EVE. If you want to win in a fair fight by superior skill, you are playing the wrong game. EVE is a strategy game, played with and for resources. A player who can catch an expensive hauler causes much more damage to the enemy than the "elite PvP-er" who kills hundreds of enemy frigs and T1 cruisers.
Or: setting up to pounce is at least half the skill. Small fights between approximately matched ships teach you things about how real fights work, how real players will react when you start taking shots at them, and how to react. Or how to react when someone surprises you and accidentally leaves you a way out.
A signature :o
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
7218
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Posted - 2016.02.20 11:02:25 -
[47] - Quote
Gevlon Goblin wrote:It's impossible, because it's not enough to just code and host a killboard (enormous work), but you need API keys from players to have data. Do you have any idea how to get those? You don;t actually. Zkb provide an API, so you could just build a kb that recalculates their data automatically. Plus hopefully CCP will be spitting all kills out on crest before too long.
You'll still have the problem though that without the context of each and every kill, it will be impossible to accurately (or even remotely in the ballpark) convert raw numbers into player skill.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
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Gevlon Goblin
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
516
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Posted - 2016.02.21 08:12:01 -
[48] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:You'll still have the problem though that without the context of each and every kill, it will be impossible to accurately (or even remotely in the ballpark) convert raw numbers into player skill. You still insist on "skill", despite it's irrelevant in EVE. Let me give an obvious example: AFK cloaking. This needs literally zero skill, yet can defeat dozens of ratters and miners. Killboards shows how good you are in destroying enemy assets.
My blog: greedygoblin.blogspot.com
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
7223
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Posted - 2016.02.21 08:37:21 -
[49] - Quote
Gevlon Goblin wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:You'll still have the problem though that without the context of each and every kill, it will be impossible to accurately (or even remotely in the ballpark) convert raw numbers into player skill. You still insist on "skill", despite it's irrelevant in EVE. Let me give an obvious example: AFK cloaking. This needs literally zero skill, yet can defeat dozens of ratters and miners. Killboards shows how good you are in destroying enemy assets. But they don't. Killboards show you how good you are at increasing killboard stats, that is all. You can kill dumb ratters till the cows come home and get trillions on the killboard, and yet the guy that drops a single strategic asset is automatically better at destroying the enemy.
The thing is, you're not a dumb guy, so I think you know this. I think you know that the only reason you put so much focus on killboard numbers is because that's the only thing moa are good at so it makes you feel like you're backing the right horse. Unfortunately no matter how many ratters they kill they'll never win doing it, all they do is raise the average skill level of the players in our group by weeding out the week.
If moa ceased to exist and the next group you picked weren't hunting ratters, and were good at taking down moons, or temporarily flipping stations or sov, those would suddenly become the metrics by which everything should be measured and killboard stats would become irrelevant. This is why stats you produce are meaningless, because they are cherry picked and analysed in a way that supports you. Real statistics don't need to be pushed or manipulated into conclusions, they speak them loudly on their own.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
33390
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Posted - 2016.02.21 08:44:23 -
[50] - Quote
Sometimes I wonder if Gevlon is actually Aryth secretly paying for content for us.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
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Cixi
33
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Posted - 2016.02.21 09:48:19 -
[51] - Quote
tbh the killboard analysis are boring, and near useless to someone who read your blog as a trader... |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
33391
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Posted - 2016.02.21 10:04:18 -
[52] - Quote
It does seem like an idea born of the desire to pay people less for killmails.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
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Gevlon Goblin
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
517
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Posted - 2016.02.22 08:31:30 -
[53] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:Sometimes I wonder if Gevlon is actually Aryth secretly paying for content for us. Posing as someone's alt is against the TOS
My blog: greedygoblin.blogspot.com
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Neuntausend
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
664
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Posted - 2016.02.22 09:24:52 -
[54] - Quote
Gevlon Goblin wrote:Rain6637 wrote:Sometimes I wonder if Gevlon is actually Aryth secretly paying for content for us. Posing as someone's alt is against the TOS
Unless you are. |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
7229
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Posted - 2016.02.22 11:28:25 -
[55] - Quote
Gevlon Goblin wrote:Rain6637 wrote:Sometimes I wonder if Gevlon is actually Aryth secretly paying for content for us. Posing as someone's alt is against the TOS Good thing noone is posing as anyone's alt. I have it on good authority (i.e. straight from CCP) though that claiming that someone else is some other persons alt is not against the EULA/TOS, so be quiet Aryth.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
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