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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
13725
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Posted - 2016.02.11 19:41:21 -
[1] - Quote
Hello everyone! We're planning a huge set of module tiericide in our March release and this thread will serve as the feedback location for changes to ECCM, Sensor Boosters, Remote ECCM, Remote Sensor Boosters, Sensor Backup Arrays and Signal Amplifiers.
These changes are pretty huge, and include a complete merger of all ECCM into their respective Sensor Booster modules.
One of the worst things about the ECCM, Remote ECCM, and Sensor Backup Array modules is that they feel terrible for the user when nobody tries to jam you (or when you get jammed anyways since there are no guarantees with randomness). To solve this problem we are adding Omni ECCM effects to Sensor Boosters, Remote Sensor Boosters and Signal Amplifier modules, and adding a new ECCM script for the active modules. Existing ECCM modules and blueprints will be converted on patch day into their closest sensor boosting equivalent.
These new modules will give bonuses to all four sensor strengths, as choosing the right ECCM type for your ship is not and interesting choice or valuable gameplay.
This change also has the added benefit of reducing the number of modules a new player needs to learn about by over 100 (we actually had 72 kinds of Sensor Backup Arrays in the game alone, it blew my mind).
As for the non-ECCM part of the Sensor Booster tiericide, we are increasing fitting costs a bit and adding new Rogue Drone faction and officer varieties. The new faction RSBs intentionally provide a very small benefit for scan resolution over T2, as we don't want to significantly buff instalock camps at this time. They provide some great targeting range and sensor strength however.
Here's the most recent iteration of the numbers: http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/67557/1/SensorBoosters.jpg
We're very interested in your feedback on all these changes. We'll be releasing them to Singularity next week if all goes well, so that you can try these and all the other module changes planned for the March release. Please use this thread for passing along your feedback, and we'll be reading.
Thanks!
Game Designer | Team Five-0
https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie
http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
13725
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Posted - 2016.02.11 19:41:26 -
[2] - Quote
Reserved
Game Designer | Team Five-0
https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie
http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/
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Sydious
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
27
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Posted - 2016.02.11 19:48:41 -
[3] - Quote
Clear Skies had you beat on this by a few years. |
Ashterothi
Aideron Robotics
350
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Posted - 2016.02.11 19:56:32 -
[4] - Quote
Help me understand:
Your problem statement is "One of the worst things about the ECCM, Remote ECCM, and Sensor Backup Array modules is that they feel terrible for the user when nobody tries to jam you (or when you get jammed anyways since there are no guarantees with randomness)."
However your solution is " adding Omni ECCM effects to Sensor Boosters, Remote Sensor Boosters and Signal Amplifier modules, and adding a new ECCM script for the active modules."
While this does decrease the number of modules that is necessary, it doesn't rightly address the issue you stated. It solves a *different* issue, that of needing to collect too many extra modules for your different ships, but it doesn't address the fact that an ECCM module that is fit feels like a waste when you are not under jam pressure, or when the jam still succeeds.
Can you help me understand how this connection was made?
Listen to Hydrostatic Podcast for all your Empyrean needs!
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Gremk
The Red Island Foundation Shadow Cartel
20
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Posted - 2016.02.11 19:57:09 -
[5] - Quote
This is a good change. Nice job CCP. |
Papazoglou
Spiritus Draconis Spaceship Bebop
6
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Posted - 2016.02.11 20:01:13 -
[6] - Quote
Ashterothi wrote:Help me understand:
Your problem statement is "One of the worst things about the ECCM, Remote ECCM, and Sensor Backup Array modules is that they feel terrible for the user when nobody tries to jam you (or when you get jammed anyways since there are no guarantees with randomness)."
However your solution is " adding Omni ECCM effects to Sensor Boosters, Remote Sensor Boosters and Signal Amplifier modules, and adding a new ECCM script for the active modules."
While this does decrease the number of modules that is necessary, it doesn't rightly address the issue you stated. It solves a *different* issue, that of needing to collect too many extra modules for your different ships, but it doesn't address the fact that an ECCM module that is fit feels like a waste when you are not under jam pressure, or when the jam still succeeds.
Can you help me understand how this connection was made?
I think the point is if you're not facing enemies with ECM there is still a benefit of extra sensor strength or targeting range. Its not just a useless module that takes up a slot. |
Jazz Caden
Convicts and Savages Shadow Cartel
33
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Posted - 2016.02.11 20:02:08 -
[7] - Quote
Well Played CCP,
Really nice change. |
Arla Sarain
750
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Posted - 2016.02.11 20:06:26 -
[8] - Quote
Yep, The future is now. |
Jack Hayson
Atztech Inc. Ixtab.
353
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Posted - 2016.02.11 20:08:29 -
[9] - Quote
Ashterothi wrote: but it doesn't address the fact that an ECCM module that is fit feels like a waste when you are not under jam pressure, or when the jam still succeeds. It does. If you are not under jam pressure you can switch out the script and get your sensor strength or lock range boosted. |
stg slate
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
34
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Posted - 2016.02.11 20:09:19 -
[10] - Quote
About time, awesome work goodsir! |
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Suodemon
Errant Endeavours Sev3rance
0
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Posted - 2016.02.11 20:13:00 -
[11] - Quote
Doing the numbers on the T2 SEBO, and the scripted sensor strength comes out at 76.8 assuming 60% like the scan res and targeting range scripts. Current ECCM modules provide 96%. Did I just do the math wrong? |
Hopelesshobo
Tactical Nuclear Penguin's
557
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Posted - 2016.02.11 20:18:15 -
[12] - Quote
This is the change ECCM/ECM has needed so people will stop complaining about ECM being OP so much. Give value to the module that isn't niche so people will actually have a module that gives them a bonus while on grid when they are not being jammed.
Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
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Dunk Dinkle
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
127
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Posted - 2016.02.11 20:19:45 -
[13] - Quote
Looks great.
As a logi pilot, the flexibility to adapt to the situation with scripts is wonderful.
Thanks! 7o |
Albrecht Patrouette
Federation Interstellar Resources Silent Infinity
19
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Posted - 2016.02.11 20:21:26 -
[14] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:H
These new modules will give bonuses to all four sensor strengths, as choosing the right ECCM type for your ship is not and interesting choice or valuable gameplay.
Thanks!
So . . . does that mean that having to choose the right ECM for the target ship is an "interesting choice or valuable gameplay"?
By the way, I really hate having to choose the right hardeners based upon the weapons I think might be used against me. It sucks so much having thermal used when I planned on kinetic. So . . . gonna lump those together now, too? |
Ashterothi
Aideron Robotics
350
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Posted - 2016.02.11 20:24:13 -
[15] - Quote
Jack Hayson wrote:Ashterothi wrote: but it doesn't address the fact that an ECCM module that is fit feels like a waste when you are not under jam pressure, or when the jam still succeeds. It does. If you are not under jam pressure you can switch out the script and get your sensor strength or lock range boosted. That's the part I didn't latch onto, Thanks!
Listen to Hydrostatic Podcast for all your Empyrean needs!
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
13740
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Posted - 2016.02.11 20:27:18 -
[16] - Quote
Albrecht Patrouette wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:H
These new modules will give bonuses to all four sensor strengths, as choosing the right ECCM type for your ship is not and interesting choice or valuable gameplay.
Thanks! So . . . does that mean that having to choose the right ECM for the target ship is an "interesting choice or valuable gameplay"? By the way, I really hate having to choose the right hardeners based upon the weapons I think might be used against me. It sucks so much having thermal used when I planned on kinetic. So . . . gonna lump those together now, too?
Those both depend on collecting or predicting information that may be unknown or may change (what race of ship you'll be facing and what damage type you're receiving (PVE is a known quantity but that's a different issue)). What ship you are currently flying is always information that is available to you.
Game Designer | Team Five-0
https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie
http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/
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Seymarr
Valkyries of Night Of Sound Mind
8
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Posted - 2016.02.11 20:29:53 -
[17] - Quote
Albrecht Patrouette wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:H
These new modules will give bonuses to all four sensor strengths, as choosing the right ECCM type for your ship is not and interesting choice or valuable gameplay.
Thanks! So . . . does that mean that having to choose the right ECM for the target ship is an "interesting choice or valuable gameplay"? Yes, because whereas your choice of which jams to fit lets you prepare to counter different threats or have different opportunities as the battlefield evolves (fit more Amarr jams to counter guardian support, fit more Caldari for counter-jam work, etc.), there is no reason to ever fit an off-race ECCM. You don't counter a different type of setup by fitting the wrong ECCM, you just waste a slot. It's not a "choice" if there's only ever one correct decision. |
Kosetzu
Aeons Multiplied
152
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Posted - 2016.02.11 20:32:19 -
[18] - Quote
Seymarr wrote:Albrecht Patrouette wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:H
These new modules will give bonuses to all four sensor strengths, as choosing the right ECCM type for your ship is not and interesting choice or valuable gameplay.
Thanks! So . . . does that mean that having to choose the right ECM for the target ship is an "interesting choice or valuable gameplay"? Yes, because whereas your choice of which jams to fit lets you prepare to counter different threats or have different opportunities as the battlefield evolves (fit more Amarr jams to counter guardian support, fit more Caldari for counter-jam work, etc.), there is no reason to ever fit an off-race ECCM. You don't counter a different type of setup by fitting the wrong ECCM, you just waste a slot. It's not a "choice" if there's only ever one correct decision. Would be really awesome if ECM had scripts for different sensor types instead of different modules. |
SilentAsTheGrave
Aliastra Gallente Federation
373
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Posted - 2016.02.11 20:33:51 -
[19] - Quote
Hopelesshobo wrote:This is the change ECCM/ECM has needed so people will stop complaining about ECM being OP so much. Give value to the module that isn't niche so people will actually have a module that gives them a bonus while on grid when they are not being jammed. What I think people don't like about ECM that many have pointed out is it has no counter play. If you are jammed, that's it. You can no do absolutely nothing of value for the next 20 seconds in addition to the time it takes to relock targets. Oh and heaven help you if you had someone tackled and they vomited out some light ECM drones on you and escaped. ECM drones are the most produced drone for all the EW drones than all other drones combined. The reason is very obvious. They are super cheap and turns any ship with a drone bay into a Kitsune.
ECM is not a fun game mechanic. It is a dice roll to see if players are allowed to play the game or not. Merging these modules initially sounds good and does help the situation some, but still does absolutely nothing to address the fact being jammed offers no counter play what so ever. ECM is just a terrible game mechanic that is a relic from old game design philosophy. |
Jayden Thomas
Manson Family Advent of Fate
15
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Posted - 2016.02.11 20:36:45 -
[20] - Quote
Excellent. A much needed improvement, and CCP didn't have to break anything to make it work. |
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Denidil
Cascade Crest
647
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Posted - 2016.02.11 20:38:00 -
[21] - Quote
I like it
Tedium and difficulty are not the same thing, if you don't realize this then STFU about game design.
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Ezekiel Marr
The Real OC ROC.
15
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Posted - 2016.02.11 20:44:19 -
[22] - Quote
So... now there's one module to counter damps and ECM. Meanwhile damps and ECM are represented by two(or five, if you count racial ECM as different) modules.
How is this fair to ewar pilots? |
xPredat0rz
Grey Templars Fidelas Constans
123
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Posted - 2016.02.11 20:44:53 -
[23] - Quote
Seems like a huge nerf to OGBs.
Most fits require at least 2 ECCMs to get where they need to be. With these proposed changes you might have to upgrade to high grade talons to deal with the nerf to Sensor strength.
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Hopelesshobo
Tactical Nuclear Penguin's
557
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Posted - 2016.02.11 20:48:14 -
[24] - Quote
SilentAsTheGrave wrote:Hopelesshobo wrote:This is the change ECCM/ECM has needed so people will stop complaining about ECM being OP so much. Give value to the module that isn't niche so people will actually have a module that gives them a bonus while on grid when they are not being jammed. What I think people don't like about ECM that many have pointed out is it has no counter play. If you are jammed, that's it. You can no do absolutely nothing of value for the next 20 seconds in addition to the time it takes to relock targets. Oh and heaven help you if you had someone tackled and they vomited out some light ECM drones on you and escaped. ECM drones are the most produced drone for all the EW drones than all other drones combined. The reason is very obvious. They are super cheap and turns any ship with a drone bay into a Kitsune. ECM is not a fun game mechanic. It is a dice roll to see if players are allowed to play the game or not. Merging these modules initially sounds good and does help the situation some, but still does absolutely nothing to address the fact being jammed offers no counter play what so ever. ECM is just a terrible game mechanic that is a relic from old game design philosophy.
I guess I will bite here...
You can still launch and assist drones (or have them set to aggressive. F.O.F. missiles (yes, they do actually work in some situations)
And with tracking disruptors and sensor damps, they only give you the illusion you can still do something. Sorry, but if someone has any kind of meaningful EWAR applied to you, you will not be able to do anything.
One of the main reasons why so many people would complain about ECM is because they would refuse to fit ECCM. Jamming a ship that has ECCM equipped is not reliable. Meanwhile Tracking Computers and Sensor Boosters directly counter unbonused tracking disruptors and unbonused damps, but they still give you a useful on grid bonus that isn't niche.
ECM drones are used more then the other EWAR drones because the other EWAR drones are useless because they give a very small bonus, but they also apply stacking penalties to each other, so by the time you get to your 5th drone, its just hanging out in space. This is while the ECM drones only give each other diminishing returns because if 2 drones land a jam at the same time, one of them is effectively wasted.
A fix for the other EWAR drones that has been brought up before on the F&I is to simply make them into super drones that require more bandwidth, and give a larger bonus.
Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
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Barrett Fruitcake
State War Academy Caldari State
9
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Posted - 2016.02.11 20:48:42 -
[25] - Quote
Sydious wrote:Clear Skies had you beat on this by a few years.
Heh, I thought the same thing when I saw that.
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John McCreedy
Eve Defence Force IT'S ONLY PIXELS
229
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Posted - 2016.02.11 20:51:42 -
[26] - Quote
Ashterothi wrote:Help me understand:
Your problem statement is "One of the worst things about the ECCM, Remote ECCM, and Sensor Backup Array modules is that they feel terrible for the user when nobody tries to jam you (or when you get jammed anyways since there are no guarantees with randomness)."
However your solution is " adding Omni ECCM effects to Sensor Boosters, Remote Sensor Boosters and Signal Amplifier modules, and adding a new ECCM script for the active modules."
While this does decrease the number of modules that is necessary, it doesn't rightly address the issue you stated. It solves a *different* issue, that of needing to collect too many extra modules for your different ships, but it doesn't address the fact that an ECCM module that is fit feels like a waste when you are not under jam pressure, or when the jam still succeeds.
Can you help me understand how this connection was made?
If I understood the blog correctly, if you're not running a script you'll still get sensor boosting and targeting range bonuses from the module even if the ECCM bonus fails due to randomness. Sounds like a sensible change to me.
12 years and counting. Eve Defence Force is recruiting.
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Drazer Emolite
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
2
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Posted - 2016.02.11 20:57:38 -
[27] - Quote
So the omni effect will be of the same strength as the racially-specific ECCM modules i'm assuming?
I like it, it bring a real reason to fit that mid slot so that even when you aren't fighting against the stupid strong ecm in this game its still useful, even if only a little. |
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2917
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Posted - 2016.02.11 20:57:48 -
[28] - Quote
Any concerns that this will make almost every ship with a sebo, significantly more difficult to probe scan? |
Soldarius
O C C U P Y Test Alliance Please Ignore
1459
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Posted - 2016.02.11 21:01:37 -
[29] - Quote
Looking at the numbers provided, your new ECCM options show a flat bonus to all sensor types. 50 for meta 0 and 60 for T2. Is this an intentional flat additive bonus, or should those be some sort of percentage?
http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
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Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
1985
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Posted - 2016.02.11 21:01:59 -
[30] - Quote
Good thing, but shouldn't ECM be tweaked, if not outright buffed due to this change?
Since it would be unreasonable to expect a complete remap of the ECM mecanic right now, even though that's what we really need, couldn't you like make ECM racially scriptables or something?
Signature Tanking Best Tanking
Retired Exploration Frontier Inc [Ex-F] CEO - Ex-BRAVE - Eve-guides.fr
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