Pages: [1] :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Noel LeBlanc
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2016.02.13 23:55:46 -
[1] - Quote
There needs to be more defensive options. I'm still relatively new, and I'm therefore flying around in tin cans, but it still seems to be too easy to be 1-shot KO'ed.
I love that EVE is dangerous and all that, but the balance seems way too far in the favor of the offense. Combat should be more involved, and lengthy. |
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
10790
|
Posted - 2016.02.14 00:01:25 -
[2] - Quote
Get big brother Matt in to help you.
Got a HoleySheet1 corpse? I'll buy it for 200m!
Bumble's Space Log
|
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
407
|
Posted - 2016.02.14 00:06:48 -
[3] - Quote
Noel LeBlanc wrote:There needs to be more defensive options. I'm still relatively new, and I'm therefore flying around in tin cans, but it still seems to be too easy to be 1-shot KO'ed.
I love that EVE is dangerous and all that, but the balance seems way too far in the favor of the offense. Combat should be more involved, and lengthy.
I lost a whole bunch of frigs when first starting out. The best PvP defense when new is to group up with some helpful veterans. Ask in corp chat about CAS Combat Guild.
|
Noel LeBlanc
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2016.02.14 00:43:28 -
[4] - Quote
I get that, and I have nothing at all against grouping up. It's a good thing. It's just...
Gate camping, for instance, seems to be *way* too easy. There are ways around it obviously, but that's not really an answer in my opinion. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't seem possible for a fleet of 10 or so people (in comparable ships) to blast their way through a gate camp. |
Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
725
|
Posted - 2016.02.14 01:11:11 -
[5] - Quote
If I'm passing through, then I'm not blasting my way through gatecamps, I'm sneaking past them. Getting through a 50 man gate camp is fun, albiet often hard and unlikely if it is run right.
Length of engagement is really a matter of controlling the engagement. If all your fights are short, then that means you're allowing the other girls to control the encounter.
Grouping up is a defensive tactic. Enemy is less likely to shoot you divided by the number in your fleet. EW is a defensive tactic. Enemy's firepower is severely reduced or even eliminated. Speed is a defensive tactic. Same malus effect as EW Direction is a defensive tactic. Increase that Angular Velocity higher than the enemy can handle. Power is defensive tactic. Drain the enemy's cap and they can't shoot or repair damage. Paranoia is a defensive tactic. Pre align, and be ready for surprise pvp at all times. Learning from your mistakes is a defensive tactic. The enemy wants the fight to be as short as possible so that your friends won't show up and ruin their fun. Record your fights and figure out what they did to make the combat shorter. Logistics ships is a defensive tactic. Spider tanking is a defensive tactic. Buffer tanking is a defensive tactic. Intelligent threat profiling is a defensive attack. Don't attack ships that you have no reasonable expectation of defeating. Unfucking your Overview and being ready to emergency warpout is a defensive tactic. Being aware of system combat modifiers is a defensive tactic.
I'm sure there are others, but this should get you started. Every encounter is the cumulation of choices made by you and the enemy. If you are being consistently one shotted, then you are letting the enemy make all of the good decisions.
My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
|
Neuntausend
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
619
|
Posted - 2016.02.14 02:15:30 -
[6] - Quote
It's just part of the whole Rock-Paper-Scissors thing. You can fly a Carrier with a effective hitpoints. But then you are slow and big and may get swarmed by opponents before you can even try to get away. You can fly a frigate that is fast and nigh uncatchable, but then you are papertanked and will die to a single lucky smartbomb pulse. Or you can fly anything inbetween.
Both the frigate and the carrier have strong defenses, but not of the same type. The frigates defense consists of being fast and small, and therefore hard to catch and equally hard to hit. The carriers defense consists of having lots of hitpoints and repping power. Both can work very well, if applied correctly. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Snuffed Out
9599
|
Posted - 2016.02.14 02:23:58 -
[7] - Quote
History lesson:
When EVE was younger this same complaint came up; "fights don't last long enough, ships should be able to last longer on field!" The DEVs then doubled all ship HP.
The result? Players compensated by attacking in greater numbers and min/maxing their ships to put out more firepower. Ships continued to die just as fast in group fights and solo players found that it was now significantly tougher to kill a target before the target's allies came to help.
The lessons we learned from this?
- If you bring enough firepower, no amount of "defense" will prevent you from being vaporized in an instant (fun fact: there are engagements where super tanked carriers and dreds can be killed in less than 30 seconds).
- knee-jerk mechanical changes based on sentiment alone often do not produce desired results... and, more often than not, will negatively affect other areas of the game.
With all that said...
There ARE ways to avoid being one-shot by hostiles... but very few lie in "raw defense" alone. Speed and tactics often play a far greater role in ensuring survival.
How did you Veterans start?
"Learn how things work. The intricacies, interactions, and hard limits... knowing these things will grant you far more power in the long run."
|
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1909
|
Posted - 2016.02.14 02:40:17 -
[8] - Quote
Noel LeBlanc wrote:There needs to be more defensive options. I'm still relatively new, and I'm therefore flying around in tin cans, but it still seems to be too easy to be 1-shot KO'ed.
I love that EVE is dangerous and all that, but the balance seems way too far in the favor of the offense. Combat should be more involved, and lengthy.
You've lost a retriever, a shuttle, a venture, and a nereus. The shuttle is... a shuttle, and your retriever and nereus were prayer-tanked.
You really have no qualified basis for your opinion.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
|
Noel LeBlanc
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2016.02.14 02:49:03 -
[9] - Quote
It's not about what I've lost. I'm talking about possibilities.
ShahFluffers reply was interesting. Good things to think about, there. |
Eternus8lux8lucis
Primus Inc. LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
633
|
Posted - 2016.02.14 02:51:37 -
[10] - Quote
I used to fight in RL.
Your first few fights are a blur, win or lose. They are over so fast you are often left wondering wtf just happened. After a while your mind catches up to the speed of the tempo of the fight and suddenly it starts getting long on occasion. Eve is very much like this with smaller ship combat. The set up is much more important than the actual time when the fists start flying.
Larger ship classes and more ehp do help most times but as you fight you will learn and things will change within your perspective of long and short. But yes there will still be the blap your dead issue even later on.
Imam: Have you heard anything I've said?
Richard B. Riddick: You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?
Imam: That's right.
Richard B. Riddick: Had to end sometime.
|
|
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1909
|
Posted - 2016.02.14 02:56:26 -
[11] - Quote
Noel LeBlanc wrote:It's not about what I've lost. I'm talking about possibilities.
Your complaint is about ships exploding too quickly, but your only experience with exploding has been in ships that were particularly flimsy.
So, yeah, in that regard, it is about what you've lost.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
|
Noel LeBlanc
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2016.02.14 03:21:32 -
[12] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:Noel LeBlanc wrote:It's not about what I've lost. I'm talking about possibilities.
Your complaint is about ships exploding too quickly, but your only experience with exploding has been in ships that were particularly flimsy. So, yeah, in that regard, it is about what you've lost.
First, I wasn't complaining.
Second, say something that contributes to the discussion or STFU. |
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
10797
|
Posted - 2016.02.14 03:23:10 -
[13] - Quote
Noel LeBlanc wrote:SurrenderMonkey wrote:Noel LeBlanc wrote:It's not about what I've lost. I'm talking about possibilities.
Your complaint is about ships exploding too quickly, but your only experience with exploding has been in ships that were particularly flimsy. So, yeah, in that regard, it is about what you've lost. First, I wasn't complaining. Second, say something that contributes to the discussion or STFU.
Like that, you ragingly ironic slab of mancake?
Got a HoleySheet1 corpse? I'll buy it for 200m!
Bumble's Space Log
|
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Snuffed Out
9600
|
Posted - 2016.02.14 03:23:50 -
[14] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:Noel LeBlanc wrote:It's not about what I've lost. I'm talking about possibilities.
Your complaint is about ships exploding too quickly, but your only experience with exploding has been in ships that were particularly flimsy. So, yeah, in that regard, it is about what you've lost. I peeked at the OP's killboard and I have to agree.
- That Retriever you lost to a Catalyst had minimal tank and had expensive mods fitted. Pro-tips; ------------ those 2 rigs (the hull and shield ones) you had fitted were insufficient and did not synergize well with each other. ------------ Choose one tanking style and fit your ship around it. ------------ A Damage Control is HIGHLY advised. ------------ Orbiting something (anything) can potentially mitigate some incoming damage by making it harder to apply full damage.
- The Venture loss to that gatecamp looks like it was simply bad luck. Next time, try not to take the "shortest route" to your destination and fit more for alignment. You can refit at a station once you are deeper in low-sec (and away from gatecamps) And yes... there is always a "back road" that sees little traffic. Moreover, the Venture is not really designed to fight. It is designed to be "slippery."
- Your Hauler loss to that Deimos... euhhhhhhh... there is a lot wrong with that one. Your lows slots are all over the place. And expecting a semi-truck to last very long against (what is essentially) a fully armed tank is a little silly.
How did you Veterans start?
"Learn how things work. The intricacies, interactions, and hard limits... knowing these things will grant you far more power in the long run."
|
Noel LeBlanc
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2016.02.14 03:25:00 -
[15] - Quote
Neuntausend wrote:PS: Maybe it would also be smart to avoid Tama for the time being. ;)
Noted. lol |
Thorian Baalnorn
Bad Influence ChaosTheory.
82
|
Posted - 2016.02.14 03:25:19 -
[16] - Quote
Noel LeBlanc wrote:It's not about what I've lost. I'm talking about possibilities.
ShahFluffers reply was interesting. Good things to think about, there.
What everyone is getting at is you do not really have the skills nor experience to assess that there are few or no defensive options available. Eve is a game that uses the " school of hard knocks".
Some things youwill need to learn: 1) Do not put yourself in pvp situations unless you want to be in pvp situations. Lowsec, in which almost all of your ships were lost , is always a pvp situation. When you enter lowsec be prepared for players to always be trying to kill you. 2) Intel is everything. For example if you did a little route research you would of learned that Tama is one of the most dangerous systems in all of EVE. Enemy Null space is safer than Tama. 3) You will have to learn game mechanics. Learn when and where people are allowed to shoot you. Learn about baiting. That highsec is safer but its still not safe. ( NBSI Null is actually safer, someone is either friend or enemy) 4) You lack both experience and skills to actually defend against anyone that wants to kill you so its best to stick to number 1 for now unless you want to pvp. 5) There are many ways to "defend" yourself. You just do not know about them and/or not capable of doing them yet. 6) You will need to understand pvp mechanics in order to be able to survive pvp. This game is all about pvp everywhere. For example ships that can make it through gatecamps fairly easily( in this order in my opinion): A t3 cruiser with interdiction nullification and a covert cloak, interceptors, covert op frigs with fast aligns, Anything that uses a covert cloak, anything that has a bonus to warp strength, etc.
When you learn game/pvp mechanics and get skilled up into better ships you will be better able to handle yourself in a fight as well as being able to avoid many situations that will put you in a fight when you do not want to be in one.
Sometimes you are the squirrel and sometimes you are the nut. Today, you are the nut and the squirrel is hungry.
|
Noel LeBlanc
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2016.02.14 03:33:08 -
[17] - Quote
Thorian Baalnorn wrote: Lowsec, in which almost all of your ships were lost , is always a pvp situation. When you enter lowsec be prepared for players to always be trying to kill you.
You don't say... O_O |
Barrett Fruitcake
State War Academy Caldari State
22
|
Posted - 2016.02.14 03:41:30 -
[18] - Quote
Noel LeBlanc wrote:Thorian Baalnorn wrote: Lowsec, in which almost all of your ships were lost , is always a pvp situation. When you enter lowsec be prepared for players to always be trying to kill you.
You don't say... O_O
Yes.
Hi Sec: Somewhat safe Low Sec: Very unsafe Null Sec: Somewhere in between if you live there WH: You never know...
|
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1909
|
Posted - 2016.02.14 03:44:12 -
[19] - Quote
Noel LeBlanc wrote:SurrenderMonkey wrote:Noel LeBlanc wrote:It's not about what I've lost. I'm talking about possibilities.
Your complaint is about ships exploding too quickly, but your only experience with exploding has been in ships that were particularly flimsy. So, yeah, in that regard, it is about what you've lost. First, I wasn't complaining. Second, say something that contributes to the discussion or STFU.
You've been playing the game for about a minute, get **** on in some particularly poorly fit ships, and you're pretty sure, based on this wealth of experience, that the game needs to be changed.
Now, some people in your position might recognize that they're not yet playing competently and would come here (or, better, newbie Q&A) and would say, "Hey folks, I've noticed I die really quickly. What can I do about that?"
But you know better. Couldn't be anything you're doing. Must be the game that needs to change.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
|
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
290
|
Posted - 2016.02.14 03:56:20 -
[20] - Quote
Noel LeBlanc wrote:I'm still relatively new, and I'm therefore flying around in tin cans, but it still seems to be too easy to be 1-shot KO'ed.
you are complaining about your ship to be easily, as you put it, KOed.
Join a good newbro-friendly corp. and learn from them, being alone limits your growth. eve is complex, it will take time to learn it on your own. and never go to lowsec/hisec through tama, you'll die.
Noel LeBlanc wrote: You don't say... O_O
HTFU op, if you have this attitude then don't cry.
Just Add Water
|
|
Pix Severus
Empty You
3038
|
Posted - 2016.02.14 04:03:41 -
[21] - Quote
Iria Ahrens wrote:Length of engagement is really a matter of controlling the engagement. If all your fights are short, then that means you're allowing the other girls to control the encounter.
I have to agree with this. I believe that the most important aspect of succeeding in PvP is the ability to choose your fights. Most of those who choose to fight do so because they know they have an advantage in numbers, ship type, experience, skills, etc. Sometimes there are exceptions and it doesn't work out as they planned, but they do come out on top for the most part.
Experience will lead to this knowledge, and you'll improve over time.
My lord.
|
Thorian Baalnorn
Bad Influence ChaosTheory.
82
|
Posted - 2016.02.14 04:54:02 -
[22] - Quote
Noel LeBlanc wrote:Thorian Baalnorn wrote: Lowsec, in which almost all of your ships were lost , is always a pvp situation. When you enter lowsec be prepared for players to always be trying to kill you.
You don't say... O_O
You are quite condescending towards people that try to help you. Not a good attitude for this game. Rather than suggesting we change the game to fit your needs/playstyle, which you have to admit is rather arrogant, you should learn to play the game the way its currently setup up.
I will go ahead and give you some more advice despite your condescending attitude.
Tanking 101:
1) If it has more mids than lows and higher base shield than armor, you should probably shield tank it. If it has more lows than mids and higher base armor than shield, you should armor tank it.
2) Never mix tank types...ever.
3) Tank types: A) Shield tanks: - Buffer tank = Combines high shield hp with high shield resist to provide High EHP. Used for pvp. - Passive shield tank = Uses high passive shield regeneration and high shield resist to be able to absorb a good amount of DPS. Used for PVE. Drakes are a good example of a ship that uses this type of tank well. - Active shield tank = Uses resists and shield boosters to repair shield damage as necessary. Used primarily for PVE, though can be found on some PVP fits.
B) Armor Tanks: - Buffer tank = Combines high armor HP and high armor resist to provide a large EHP. Used for PVP. - Active tank = Uses armor repairers to repair damage to armor. Used for both PVE and PVP.
C) Hull tanking: This involves using the hull hp to tank. This started out as LOL fits but some versions can be quite effective. This is used in PVP( though not a lot) and requires a lot of skill and experience to use effectively...unless you are looking for LOLs.
D) Speed tanking: This involves using speed to tank. The ability for missiles to hit you ( for max damage) is based on your speed and sig radius. The ability for guns to hit you is based on speed and their tracking, your angular velocity( orbiting and zig zagging provides this) and your sig radius. Small ships close in are hard for big guns to track and hit for example. This takes both skill and experience to master. It is used both in PVE and PVP. It may be combined with tracking disruptors for even better tanking ability.
E) Travel fit: This is not a true tank. Travel fitting a ship means you make it align and warp quickly and harder to catch/ target. Travel fit mods( on sub capitals) are inertia stabilizers and nanofibers, as well as an MWD and a covert cloak if you can fit one. Smaller ships are usually better for travel through dangerous areas as they have smaller sig radius and much faster aligns. Warp core stabs can be used as well but i would only use these on larger ships( Battle cruisers and Battleships) that take a bit to align.
As a general rule of thumb: -Caldari ships are shield tanked - Amarr ships are armor tanked - Gallente ships are armor tanked - Minmatar ships can be either/or in most cases. Though each ship usually fits one or the other better. - Mining ships are usually shield tanked. - Industrials are usually shield tanked.
Protip: In PVE you want absorb relatively low amounts of DPS for long periods of time. In PVP you want to absorb high amounts of DPS for short periods of time.
Sometimes you are the squirrel and sometimes you are the nut. Today, you are the nut and the squirrel is hungry.
|
Ashterothi
Aideron Robotics
354
|
Posted - 2016.02.14 07:30:26 -
[23] - Quote
Noel LeBlanc wrote:SurrenderMonkey wrote:Noel LeBlanc wrote:It's not about what I've lost. I'm talking about possibilities.
Your complaint is about ships exploding too quickly, but your only experience with exploding has been in ships that were particularly flimsy. So, yeah, in that regard, it is about what you've lost. First, I wasn't complaining. Second, say something that contributes to the discussion or STFU.
OK your initial statement was
Noel LeBlanc wrote:There needs to be more defensive options. I'm still relatively new, and I'm therefore flying around in tin cans, but it still seems to be too easy to be 1-shot KO'ed.
I love that EVE is dangerous and all that, but the balance seems way too far in the favor of the offense. Combat should be more involved, and lengthy.
For there to be a need for more defensive options, then the defensive options that currently exist must therefore be insufficient. You support that claim by bringing up that it is "too easy" to be one shot.
This means your suggestion has the underlying problem or "complaint" that there isn't enough defensive options in the game. If every loss you have demonstrates you haven't used any of the options you do have, it is hard to feel you have a strong ground to make your initial statement.
As many have pointed out, there are lots of options for how to stay alive. Instead of dismissing them, perhaps you should learn from those who are trying to be helpful.
In fact CCP just announced this week that they are adding a new survivability device for capital ships, so new mechanics both offensive and defensive come all the time.
Listen to Hydrostatic Podcast for all your Empyrean needs!
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |