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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
305
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Posted - 2016.02.14 15:27:13 -
[91] - Quote
Tipa Riot wrote:Where are all the players telling newbies, skill points do not matter? Now we realize, this was and is a lie.
Skill points have always mattered, how much they matter depends on the ability of the players involved.
But to have all the skills at maximum is a waste of a lot of sp.
I think the player of the character that is the subject of this thread, just did it to prove a point.
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Dr Caymus
Applied Technologies Inc Agents of Fortune
117
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Posted - 2016.02.14 15:27:16 -
[92] - Quote
Tipa Riot wrote: EvE had the feeling of a real open world, with limits, with unreachable goals, like getting all skills ...
Refreshing to see a thought that returns to an original game design concept! An important one that differentiated the game from many if not most others.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
27083
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Posted - 2016.02.14 15:29:47 -
[93] - Quote
Tipa Riot wrote:Where are all the players telling newbies, skill points do not matter? Now we realize, this was and is a lie. They still don't matter. What matters is thatGǪ
Quote:EvE had the feeling of a real open world, with limits, with unreachable goals, like getting all skills ... now it feels the eternity folded into the beginning, EvE became a closed loop ... GǪa core part of the GǣfeelGǥ of EVE has been sacrificed for a quick injection of cash, and for no real benefit to the game itself. Indeed, its main result is to further reinforce the two most common unattractive misunderstandings that made new players reticent to try the game.
Age and history had some kind of meaning; that meaning is gone. What was once the most valued commodity in the game GÇö time GÇö is now trivially tradable on the in-game market and offered in abundance for anyone who wants to pay.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.3 - Vanguard Edition.
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Kiandoshia
Gambrini
2416
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Posted - 2016.02.14 15:30:51 -
[94] - Quote
Before I leave this thread: When can we change character names for PLEX or Aurum or whatever? |
Nana Skalski
Poseidaon
5158
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Posted - 2016.02.14 15:31:30 -
[95] - Quote
Tipa Riot wrote:Where are all the players telling newbies, skill points do not matter? Now we realize, this was and is a lie. I fell this myself after applying a couple of skill injectors ... I can have everything instantly ... but why? EvE had the feeling of a real open world, with limits, with unreachable goals, like getting all skills ... now it feels the eternity folded into the beginning, EvE became a closed loop ... You naughty girl. Looks like bad trip to me.
( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ =ƒÅ¦ - my sandcastle
Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
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Nana Skalski
Poseidaon
5158
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Posted - 2016.02.14 15:33:04 -
[96] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Tipa Riot wrote:Where are all the players telling newbies, skill points do not matter? Now we realize, this was and is a lie. They still don't matter. What matters is thatGǪ Quote:EvE had the feeling of a real open world, with limits, with unreachable goals, like getting all skills ... now it feels the eternity folded into the beginning, EvE became a closed loop ... GǪa core part of the GÇ£feelGÇ¥ of EVE has been sacrificed for a quick injection of cash, and for no real benefit to the game itself. Age and history had some kind of meaning; that meaning is gone. What was once the most valued commodity in the game GÇö time GÇö is now trivially tradable on the in-game market and offered in abundance for anyone who wants to pay. Its the future, you adapt or what?
( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ =ƒÅ¦ - my sandcastle
Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
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Big Lynx
4829
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Posted - 2016.02.14 15:35:16 -
[97] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Tipa Riot wrote:Where are all the players telling newbies, skill points do not matter? Now we realize, this was and is a lie. They still don't matter. What matters is thatGǪ Quote:EvE had the feeling of a real open world, with limits, with unreachable goals, like getting all skills ... now it feels the eternity folded into the beginning, EvE became a closed loop ... GǪa core part of the GÇ£feelGÇ¥ of EVE has been sacrificed for a quick injection of cash, and for no real benefit to the game itself. Indeed, its main result is to further reinforce the two most common unattractive misunderstandings that made new players reticent to try the game. Age and history had some kind of meaning; that meaning is gone. What was once the most valued commodity in the game GÇö time GÇö is now trivially tradable on the in-game market and offered in abundance for anyone who wants to pay.
Disgusting. But from economical survival of eve point of view, necessary obviously. |
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
408
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Posted - 2016.02.14 15:39:42 -
[98] - Quote
As a member of CAS - even an Intaki Reborn, funny enough - I would much rather have one of my fleetmates with 10 million SP by my side in battle than this character. I would be more worried about going up against SUAS than this character. *shrug*
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Poddington Bare
Angur Therapy
231
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Posted - 2016.02.14 15:42:14 -
[99] - Quote
Quite a few people have said the guy in question is an RMTer.
(1) How can this be open knowledge, and yet still be happening? (2) Why are CCP not doing something about it?*
*even if he is being crafty...surely it's as simple as CCP creating a character, initiating RMT activity, confirming evidence, deploying banhammer? |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
27085
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Posted - 2016.02.14 15:42:23 -
[100] - Quote
Nana Skalski wrote:Its the future, you adapt or what? Adapt to what? That CCP is pursuing short-term strategies that hurts their long-time viability? Yeah, sure. I have other games to play when that process has run its course.
Quote:And since when history and experience does not matter? Since day 1. It's pretty much the life-blood of any persistent and long-lasting game GÇö indeed, it's what makes the persistence last so long. If your business model is to sell long-term progression, then letting people skip that progression means you no longer have a viable business model.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.3 - Vanguard Edition.
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Yarosara Ruil
Caldari State
110
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Posted - 2016.02.14 15:44:11 -
[101] - Quote
Remember when people where moaning about how removing Clone Grades, and having to spend ISK to keep veteran players from losing their large SP pools when podded, was terrible for EVE because it removed a risk mechanic from the game?
Well, guess that this last year and a half without Skill Point loss has been addressed rather fantastically if you ask me.
My advice? HTFU you guys! |
Anke Eyrou
Hades Sisters
56
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Posted - 2016.02.14 15:50:10 -
[102] - Quote
Boom Boom Longtime wrote:CCP allowed their own corporate greed to renege on the fundamental core principles of the game they created.
Sums it up really.
What "exciting new features" will be rolled out next to shamelessly endeavour to milk more cash from the playberbase?
Try this https://secure.eveonline.com/SkillExtractors/
RL cash for in game items.
I expect to get this post deleted or locked. So much for freedom of expression.
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Nana Skalski
Poseidaon
5158
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Posted - 2016.02.14 15:52:00 -
[103] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Nana Skalski wrote:Its the future, you adapt or what? Adapt to what? That CCP is pursuing short-term strategies that hurts their long-time viability? Yeah, sure. I have other games to play when that process has run its course. Quote:And since when history and experience does not matter? Since day 1. It's pretty much the life-blood of any persistent and long-lasting game GÇö indeed, it's what makes the persistence last so long. If your business model is to sell long-term progression, then letting people skip that progression means you no longer have a viable business model. Idea of a viable style of play is very different for many people, EVE have this advantage, that it allows to do many shenanigans, so having perfect skills, does not mean you will not have to carve your own history and experience. And this is all about it here, if you have less or more SP it does not really matter so much.
You remember the former EVE intro? "Dare to be bold pilot, forge your own path to the greatness."
SP aquirement is not really this forging. Everyone can have it for free.
( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ =ƒÅ¦ - my sandcastle
Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
1111
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Posted - 2016.02.14 15:53:11 -
[104] - Quote
Yarosara Ruil wrote:Remember when people where moaning about how removing Clone Grades, and having to spend ISK to keep veteran players from losing their large SP pools when podded, was terrible for EVE because it removed a risk mechanic from the game?
Well, guess that this last year and a half without Skill Point loss has been addressed rather fantastically if you ask me.
My advice? HTFU you guys! Why is the game being made easier and more forgiving something to HTFU about? |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
27086
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Posted - 2016.02.14 15:56:04 -
[105] - Quote
Nana Skalski wrote:Idea of a viable style of play is very different for many people, EVE have this advantage, that it allows to do many shenanigans, so having perfect skills, does not mean you will not have to carve your own history and experience. It means you're not creating any kind of history and your character does not reflect your experience, because the two have been completely decoupled. And again, it's not about viable play style, but about viable business models GÇö or in this case the way they're actively disrupting their own model.
Quote:You remember the former EVE intro? You mean the one that was pretty much universally derided as being **** and that had very little to do with EVE compared to the ones that came before and after it?
Yes. I remember it. It was ****.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.3 - Vanguard Edition.
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Nana Skalski
Poseidaon
5158
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Posted - 2016.02.14 16:04:12 -
[106] - Quote
We have different ideas about what is your history and what is experience. Time is not significant like you would want to see it. What matters most is what you have been able to do.
If you have less SP, more glory to you if you can pull something. If perferct skills, experience and history matters the most.
( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ =ƒÅ¦ - my sandcastle
Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
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Pandora Bokks
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
30
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Posted - 2016.02.14 16:06:26 -
[107] - Quote
Dr Caymus wrote:The new skill system: Dawn of a New Era or Epic Fail
Perhaps I owe CCP an apology for making a goal of leading the skillpoint group for the last 13 years, I must have offended them greatly for them to do what they have done to the system.
Back up and restore, anyone?
I feel a bit sorry for you, but to be honest - paying a subscription for 13 years in a row is nothing I would call an achievement. If it is that important for you, you an get back to top position in a couple of hours.
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SKINE DMZ
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
504
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Posted - 2016.02.14 16:10:42 -
[108] - Quote
Yarosara Ruil wrote:Remember when people where moaning about how removing Clone Grades, and having to spend ISK to keep veteran players from losing their large SP pools when podded, was terrible for EVE because it removed a risk mechanic from the game?
Well, guess that this last year and a half without Skill Point loss has been addressed rather fantastically if you ask me.
My advice? HTFU you guys!
"Hey guys remember there was once a feature implemented which people claimed was terrible but actually it wasn't? That's my argument for why this feature isn't terrible"
PLS CCP implement logic injectors
I disagree
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Indahmawar Fazmarai
4724
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Posted - 2016.02.14 16:12:37 -
[109] - Quote
Dr Caymus wrote:The new skill system: Dawn of a New Era or Epic Fail
Perhaps I owe CCP an apology for making a goal of leading the skillpoint group for the last 13 years, I must have offended them greatly for them to do what they have done to the system.
However, now a complete mockery of the system has been made with a 3-day-old character. Was that not seen coming?
This could have been done much more effectively with more controls: more tiers with decreasing marginal gains at higher SP levels, daily limits, or whatever.
Back up and restore, anyone?
Dr Caymus, respect can be EARNED in many ways, but it can't be BOUGHT in no way.
For what is worth, you have my respect as the longest trained character in EVE.
CCP Seagull: "EVE should be a universe where the infrastructure you build and fight over is as player driven and dynamic as the EVE market is now".
62% of players: "We're not interested. May we have Plan B, please?"
CCP Seagull: "What Plan B?"
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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
305
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Posted - 2016.02.14 16:13:00 -
[110] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Nana Skalski wrote:Idea of a viable style of play is very different for many people, EVE have this advantage, that it allows to do many shenanigans, so having perfect skills, does not mean you will not have to carve your own history and experience. It means you're not creating any kind of history and your character does not reflect your experience, because the two have been completely decoupled. And again, it's not about viable play style, but about viable business models GÇö or in this case the way they're actively disrupting their own model. Quote:You remember the former EVE intro? You mean the one that was pretty much universally derided as being **** and that had very little to do with EVE compared to the ones that came before and after it? Yes. I remember it. It was ****.
History doesn't really matter, it's the present and looking to the future that counts. You can start to learn how to play at any point.
These style of games with the long skill training queues and slow progression were popular around 2003 but even then they were starting to become a bit less popular. In fact in some ways it still reminds me of those times. Another reason it was a niche game as this style of game still had its fans.
Seems that they are trying to modernise the game, I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing, although I still think they should have had a cap so that the injectors would no longer work at a certain point, so as to protect their older customers sp levels. But it's too late for that now.
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Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
810
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Posted - 2016.02.14 16:15:38 -
[111] - Quote
Well, I have to say that it's come much faster than I had imagined, but I don't really think this is that much of a surprise to anyone. I think we all knew it would happen at some point. Make of it what you will. Some will complain that the end is nigh all all is lost; "The sky is falling and Eve is dying again," that sort of thing. Not that I think there concerns are completely invalid, some of that does hold a bit of truth...Eve will never be the same as it was for it's first dozen years of life. That said, change like this is pretty much inevitable when your really think about it. In fact, should Eve survive long enough, it will likely change again just as much in another dozen years.
Personally the way I see it there is more to Eve than half a billion SP, whether you get it through time or money. Granted it is a big part of what players can and cannot do, but it still doesn't make a player suddenly invincible or the Eve equivalent of a god or goddess among the rest of us minor, half-mortal deities. End of Eve? No, but Eve has just received one of the biggest changes to it's core fundamental foundations it has ever seen, certainly the biggest change in a long time. I do hope people don't simply end up quitting Eve simply in direct protest of such a change, but it wouldn't surprise me if some did, nor do I blame them either. New players won't know what patience is when they can buy their way past such a milestone instantly, true without question.
If it bothers you so much that others will be able to max skills out sooner than you simply because they have more ISK or RL cash rather than having the luck that they started their time in Eve far sooner than you did, then you'd have every right to pack it up and log off for the last time. Again, can't say I really blame you. It just isn't the way I see it. To me, seeing others buying their SP with RL currency or in game currency is no different than starting your adventure in Eve while running into players that have simply acquired their SP by being there longer than you. Just as PLEX'ing your account with PLEX bought with ISK from another player is no different in my eyes than paying for your account with a credit card -- especially given how expensive ISK-wise PLEX and many other things in Eve have become over the years. The only difference here is that the more patient players will not only have an SP advantage over a newer player, they will have more personal human experience and understanding of how Eve works.
It's a shame players nowadays have a way to effectively "skip" all of that personal experience and know-how; knowing people, many will take advantage of that simply because it's there at all. If nothing else, it will mean the players will see less of an SP gap between new and old players and their characters. Hopefully, that alone will still be enough to matter in the years to come and beyond now that an SP curve is no longer strictly tied to a character's age. It's tough to say right now at least whether this change will loosen up an needlessly strict age-old burden in Eve or be unfortunately denying future players a vital and valuable lesson by luring them into the possibly very false sense of buying their way up getting them the win.
tl;dr It is what it is. I hope you guys stay and continue to play Eve these changes, but if you feel that skill injections have turned Eve into a game you cannot have fun playing anymore, then maybe it is time to call it a day for Eve Online. It won't bother me one bit that new players (or even old players with new characters) have a new means to remove that SP advantage that a more veteran player's characters had if they have the cash for it, so I'm still in. What ever each of you and any other player does, I wish you the best of luck and thanks for playing.
Fly safe and go nuts...
"Tomahawks?"
"----in' A, right?"
"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."
"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."
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Leanette Aldard
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
14
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Posted - 2016.02.14 16:16:04 -
[112] - Quote
i saw tail end of his stream and this is a sad thing to do but there was always going to be someone that did this,
he made a statement on the stream saying this wasn't P2W that it was "Pay for convenience" as he was still the pilot at end of the day, which is kinda true if you blow at pvp all isk and sp in world isnt going to change that,
he did also say he planned on being the youngest pilot in EvE to loose one of every titan, so obviously has more isk then sense !! |
Edwin Rothbard
Interstellar Arbitrage
32
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Posted - 2016.02.14 16:17:28 -
[113] - Quote
Pandora Bokks wrote:[quote=Dr Caymus]I feel a bit sorry for you, but to be honest - paying a subscription for 13 years in a row is nothing I would call an achievement. If it is that important for you, you an get back to top position in a couple of hours.
Therein lies the problem: CCP has now created a system where the only way to stay competitive on SP is to pay RL cash for SP on top of your monthly subscription fee. This is the very definition of p2win. What's worse is that most p2win games are 'free' from a monthly subscription fee but with all the microtransactions. CCP has done one better by requiring both the month subscription fee AND the microtransactions. Not to mention CCP's idea of "micro" is really more "macro."
This looks great on a spreadsheet from an account's point of view, but for the health and longevity of the game it's bad.
Rothbard's Casino
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Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9857
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Posted - 2016.02.14 16:18:28 -
[114] - Quote
So a few mentally unstable/attention whores max out the SP on a few characters? How exactly does this affect the majority of players?
I'll tell you. Not in the least.
You people kill me, sometimes.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
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Dr Caymus
Applied Technologies Inc Agents of Fortune
124
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Posted - 2016.02.14 16:21:00 -
[115] - Quote
Pandora Bokks wrote:Dr Caymus wrote:The new skill system: Dawn of a New Era or Epic Fail
Perhaps I owe CCP an apology for making a goal of leading the skillpoint group for the last 13 years, I must have offended them greatly for them to do what they have done to the system.
However, now a complete mockery of the system has been made with a 3-day-old character. Was that not seen coming?
This could have been done much more effectively with more controls: more tiers with decreasing marginal gains at higher SP levels, daily limits, or whatever.
Back up and restore, anyone? I feel a bit sorry for you, but to be honest - paying a subscription for 13 years in a row is nothing I would call an achievement. If it is that important for you, you an get back to top position in a couple of hours. You're missing the point, Pandora. You are correct, I have the resources to take this char to max if I wanted, but this isn't about me, its about the game... its history, its lore, its value, its perception within the gaming industry.
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SKINE DMZ
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
504
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Posted - 2016.02.14 16:24:35 -
[116] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:So a few mentally unstable/attention whores max out the SP on a few characters? How exactly does this affect the majority of players? I'll tell you. Not in the least. You people kill me, sometimes. Mr Epeen
Thats one extremely narrow minded point of view. Surely it's possible for a feature to affect the game in different ways i.e. the perception towards SP in regards to new players? Or is that completely nullified because one character maxing out his character doesn't affect you personally?
Aren't you guys meant to be the more mature community, seriously where is the logic in some of you people.
I disagree
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
27088
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Posted - 2016.02.14 16:25:49 -
[117] - Quote
Nana Skalski wrote:We have different ideas about what is your history and what is experience. Time is not significant like you would want to see it. What matters most is what you have been able to do. GǪin other words, the history and progression of your character. The part that no longer matters since it's optional.
Avvy wrote:History doesn't really matter Not any more, no. That's why something has been lost: because the organic growth of a character is gone, replaced with a short-sighted cash grab.
Quote:Seems that they are trying to modernise the game, I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing The problem is that they're not really doing that. There's nothing GÇ£modernGÇ¥ about these kinds of time skips. What they are doing is confirming some of the worst preconceived notions that players have had of EVE over almost its entire time on the market GÇö notions that were never actually true, but are at least somewhat closer to being so today. This is indeed a bad thing; catering to uninformed opinions pretty much always are.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.3 - Vanguard Edition.
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Cara Forelli
Meticulously Indifferent
1575
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Posted - 2016.02.14 16:27:13 -
[118] - Quote
Wouldn't it be funny if CCP suddenly put clone costs back in?
Adventures
New player with questions? Join my public channel in game: House Forelli
Titan's Lament
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Poddington Bare
Angur Therapy
231
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Posted - 2016.02.14 16:28:34 -
[119] - Quote
Cara Forelli wrote:Wouldn't it be funny if CCP suddenly put clone costs back in?
Yes.
Yes it would. |
Nana Skalski
Poseidaon
5158
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Posted - 2016.02.14 16:29:45 -
[120] - Quote
Dr Caymus wrote:Pandora Bokks wrote:Dr Caymus wrote:The new skill system: Dawn of a New Era or Epic Fail
Perhaps I owe CCP an apology for making a goal of leading the skillpoint group for the last 13 years, I must have offended them greatly for them to do what they have done to the system.
However, now a complete mockery of the system has been made with a 3-day-old character. Was that not seen coming?
This could have been done much more effectively with more controls: more tiers with decreasing marginal gains at higher SP levels, daily limits, or whatever.
Back up and restore, anyone? I feel a bit sorry for you, but to be honest - paying a subscription for 13 years in a row is nothing I would call an achievement. If it is that important for you, you an get back to top position in a couple of hours. You're missing the point, Pandora. You are correct, I have the resources to take this char to max if I wanted, but this isn't about me, its about the game... its history, its lore, its value, its perception within the gaming industry. Live up to your words and dont pay attention to SP whores who like to wave around their lengthened artificially SPeen.
( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ =ƒÅ¦ - my sandcastle
Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
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